and to walk out of that dealership... and know that i got a good deal. save time, save money, and never overpay. visit truecar.com we will see you tomorrow. >> our party is encumbered by the ionsistent approach to freedom. >> all americans support freedom in principle gambling has a negative consequences. >> and when they gave frayed freedom to gay people to marry. >>. bill: to police though world? conservatives want a bigger military. >> we don't do this for them but for us. >> stronger border patrol but when i border control.

when i criticized that i was kr criticized. government wants us to leave others alone that doesn't sit well with conservatives. lib tearian versus conservative tonight. tonight. ♪ john: >> the biggest threat to america's future is big government. most conservatives and libertarians agree about that $17 billion debt may crush us. when they are not spending your money they pass more rules, probably killing economic growth. most agree that government should stop trying to micro

manage the economy. that america should allow people to drill for oil, free speech, and limited welfare state because private charity is better. great, glad we agree. but when it comes to personal freedoms there is a big difference. most cone serve most conservatives want gambling ban, libertarians think the war on drugs is just nuts. let's start there. congressman allen west is a proud conservative. in your book you say our republic cannot survive if we continue to ab rick ate the freedom to choose but by banning

intonight kanl t intoxic ants you are not doing that. >> if someone wants to make a personal choice, well, then that's fine in their realm. but i forget the supreme court justice who said your right to throw a punch should not reach my nose. i'm very concerned. someone will come to the government and say you need these type of programs to take care of the drug addicts. >> that's like saying banning fatty meat because someone might come to the government. >> there are some things that are detriment to the individual and to society. when you talk about freedom, you got to make sure there's a level of personal responsibility that is there as well. my point is that the federal government has allowed people to

be, you know, less and less responsible by saying we'll take care of it. >> when you say personal responsibility, how is it personal responsibility if government bans something? >> well, that's because we have people that don't want to accept that personal responsibility. >> right for lots things. >> i was the designated driver for most of my second lieutenant buddies. their choice was, hey, allen, i want to go out and have a good time. >> their choice was to drink. >> absolutely sk. >> and if someone else wants to snort cocaine why do you want to stop them. >> i think is a detriment to society. if you want to do it, do it in your own sphere. >> you would be fine with that being legal. >> you got it here in new york city. i know there are executives, we saw the film wolff on wall

street. and what he was doing. if you're an adult, fine. >> what do you mean, it's illegal. you would lock people up for that. >> i don't want to be the one responsible for something that happens. i don't want to be the one who suffers the consequence if someone is out high on cocaine and i lose my life because of it. that's where we have to be smart and have rules and regulations. >> but we can punish people for wreckless driving or for someone who gets high and injures someone but why is the getting high itself illegal. >> i think that is an overall concern of really what is the detriment to an individual. look, you see people all of a sudden talking about sugary sodas and everything. >> same question. >> i believe you have a government that is getting into the over reach of trying to

manage and modify. >> why is that over reach but a law against heroin not. >> because heroin is ai different type of substance than going down and having a big gulp soda. >> you never drank because? >> i never saw my parents drink. >> ever curious to alter your consciousness? >> no i like being responsible and making the right decisions. >> do you fault those who do. >> no i don't. that's why i was designated driver for my friends in the military. the founders were drinking and throwing back whiskey at nazi y -- naseum. >> they were the bar tap bottles and bottles of the signing of the constitution. they were getting wasted. >> they were. i like your thing, libertarians

versus conservatives. let's find out where we do agree. i think the one thing we can agree on is progressive socialism is bad for the country. >> we agree on that. >> being the tax issue, the freedom issue, the liberty issue. >> we should be able to pay whoever we want, hire who we want, speak freely, keep most of what we earn and raise our kids the way we zblawant to. >> and we believe in freedom of people, not big government dictating outcomes. >> should people be allowed to gamble. >> i think they should. if you want to go out and gamble that's your money. why should i tell you what to do with your money. >> that's libertarian. >> now if you go out and get yourself in financial debt. >> my problem.

>> darn right. >> gay marriage? >> i'm for civil unions. >> so marriage between man and woman. for a flag. >> i got problems with that. >> free speech. >> that flag i saw draped overfe over mine. i have no problem with that. >> usually gamble we don't agree. i like to bet. i play poker. and i bet on almost anything, baseball games. an election, which way a ball will roll. fortunately that's legal in my state but organized sports betting is banned, online gamble is banned, even in some states bets between friends are against the law. americans can be jailed for

betting. the bans exist because many people consider gambling a sin and some are hurt, some bet the house and lose it. bill o'reilly gives me a hard time because i like it. >> you can get addicted to it. you can lose rent money. it's almost like narcotics. >> i doubt poker is as addictive as cocaine, even if it were, as a libertarian i say once i'm an adult it ought to be my choice if i want to gamble. alex says libertarians are wrong about that, why? >> well gambling is often times defended by saying it is my money, it's only me, but it touches other people. >> everything touches other people. >> it does and that's all the more incentive to act morally. wherever gambling goes suicide

increases, las vegas is the suicide capitol of america. there are any number of conservative that's are against gambling. >> why can't individual dozen what t -- individuals do what we want. it's my money my can choice. >> america was found on a belief of an objective trance endent moral code, all men are endowed by their creator, pursuit of happiness, you can call it the ten commandments -- >> -- i'm not getting it. why can't i bet. mortal code means i have the choice to do the moral thing or not. >> because no man is an island.

there is a ripple effect. there are misconceptions about winning and betting. >> what is my misconception if i want to risk my money playing blackjack, my choice. >> we influence other people. we have got to acknowledge that there is a god. our founding fathers believe in god and a moral code. that's what we got to recover. if you don't want to be a christian, you're free to be an atheist. but don't destroy the mill ooh that gives the freedom to be a christian see? >> no because my relationship with god is personal and i can only make a choice if i'm free to gamble or not. so if you ban it, you're making my choice for me. >> that doesn't follow at all. it is economical and socially

detriment detrimental. it is contrary to the message we want to send to our children and their descendants. >> poker? some kids now learn math playing poker. >> of american youth 12to 17, 80% have dabbled in gambling, 35% of all teens have gambled in the last seven days. we are teaching our kids that money is not to be handlied responsibly. >> i think kids playing poker learn to handle money responsibly. we agree to disagree. what do you think about this. find us on twitter. top libertarians on twitter and top conservatives on twitter. search for those hashtags and see what everyone's saying.

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you want to marry someone of your own gender, fine. and most libertarians say fine. most of us don't know why government is involved at all. it ought to be a private contract between consenting adults. gay marriage is one area where conservative and libertarians clearly differ. here's some reaction after some restrictions on gay marriage. >> very sad day for the children

of america. >> those who hurt the most are the children of america because clearly every child in america deserves a mom and dad. >> today's decisions are offensive on so many levels. they attack something that they have no jurisdiction over whatsoever, the foundational unit of our society. >> allowing gays to marry threatens that. i don't see how gays getting married would threaten my marriage. here to educate me the author of what is marriage, man and woman, a defense. sounds like you are under attack. >> i think the family has been under attack for the last 40 or 50years. there's a whole host of problems, what we need to recognize as people in favor of limited government is the family is the heart of the civil society and you can't have that without a strong civil site.

so the government tries to have man and woman commitment exclusively as man and wife so any children have a mother and father. >> why can't government encourage two men or women to do the same thing. >> you are left with no foundational reason for monday og amymonoga monogamy, one man, one woman, can create new life, but if it is just about adult romance, why not marry the people you love. why should it be permanent rather than temporary once you take away the procreative aspects. >> you allow infertile people to marry and people who are too old to bear children to marry. it's not just about child bearing.

>> but the fact of the matter is every child is the product of the union of the man and woman and children do best in creating a child who grows up to be adult who are not relying on a welfare pregram. >> who is to say lesbians won't raise the same. >> every child deserves to have a man and women who created that child raise that child. >> what about adopted child. >> we don't criminalize that. no one we suggest we take children randomly from the hospital and assign them to the (s. the ideal is the mother and father take that child home but when they are unable to do that we recognize adoption as

something that is necessary, but not ideal. >> do you have a problem with is ho homo sexuality. >> i don't think it is part of public policy to talk about that. we are concerned about when someone is shut down by the government for wanting to treatment the union of the man and woman, a marriage, in a way that distinct between two men or two women. we have seen agencies forced out because they wanted to find moms and dads families. how's that live and let live. >> it is not. but if i open a busy should get to serve anyone i want. and when i judge orders a colorado bakery that must have

same-sex marriages. i may want to boycott that bakery. but these other cases, photography, it is outragious. one someone said they ought to have right, there is a new gay mafia that says you can't even disagree. >> it is amazing. we should voice our opinions without being penalized. you cannot hire to be your photographers, you don't have to have the government fine her. >> solve it here. coming up the libertarians conservative divide on getting paid for sex. legal profstitutes in nevada sad legal ought to be better saying sex job is like any other job. >> we are independent contractors just like any other business.

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radio host here volunteers to explain it to me. >> look i understand the freedom argument and i'm not averse to that argument which libertarians make. this is a good service, it's a demand and supply for it. i can appreciate that argument but i think the social cost is far too high that decriminalizing it tears at the social fabric in a way once that door is open you can't restore. when you legalize it, it's a gift to pimps and sex traffickers and the sex industry. >> if it is legal you don't need a pimp. >> even where it is legal you get a increase in hidden illegal and child prostitution as well. it opens a door to darkness. >> where things are legal you don't have darkness. >> what we do have from studies,

i have a couple in front of me from journal of traumatic stress, it does lead to an increase in child prostition. >> i look at where it is legal, german, grease, holland, switzerland, illegal, china, egypt. >> i would say the united states is a special case. i will concede that point. there is a very pure strain that started where the founding of this country. it was also founded on judean christian morals ethics. views changeover time but at this very moment, the consensus is widespread that prostitiutio

should remain illegal. >> what about those who say boxers and quarterback want to make their money that way this is how i want to make money. >> well they wear money, would you be not just your body, you have a client, a pimp, it's not just your body. >> share the happiness, so what. >> the thing that makes sex a different issue from all the other things is that even if you are using protection and even if it is regulated it is still a process that can lead to a life. in that way it is more sacred than drug use. >> in one american state, nevada, prostitution is legal. i once interviewed some of the legal worker who's worked at a place that is called the bunny

ranch. the state department calls it inher interly demeaning. >> who mailed the sex laws. >> it's just for money. >> don't you model for money, it's the same thing. >> sex is more intimate. >> i choose to do this. this is what i want to do. >> i assume you have no other options. >> i have several options. before i did this, i had a nice paying job. >> so why do you do this. >> because i want to. >> because they want to. we libertarians say, once you're an adult that ought to decide, as long as you don't directly hurt someone else. >> so if women in american feel compelled to express them self that's way and earn that way they can certainly go there. i think we have reached a national consensus where the united states doesn't want to condone that activity. >> and you say thank god for that. >> yes, indeed.

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john: >> i want america to be safe, so do conservative. we differ on what is the best way to do that. some libertarians want less military spending and less

involvement in other countries problems. some conservative respond to that this way. >> this strain of libertarians that is going through both parties right now and making big headlines, i think, is a very dangerous thought. >> some conservative call libertarians isolationist, i'm not though, i'm glad we trade with other people. grade that we trade ideas, i want to participate in the world, just don't want to run the world, and sometimes it seems like conservative do. former u.s. ambassador of the un, you probably call it an unfair description but it seems that you want to police the world. >> i think most of what you just said is completely il relevant to foreign policy decision making, certainly from a conservative point of view. the basis in which you start is

defining american interest and tr and then try best to protect them. >> let's get specifics. you supported the iraq war. >> correct. >> you think we should use force stop iran from getting nuclear weapon. >> correct. >> you would attack. >> yes i've said that for a long time after using peaceful means to stop iran from getting weapons we are down to two alternatives, either they get nuclear weapons or someone use force to stop them. it is a terrible choice but that's where we are. and i think contrary to some that the people of iran are smart enough to understand that if we attack their nuclear weapons program and help over

throw the regime that the people of iran will be in a better place we are today. >> they won't hate us for killing their brothers and parents. >> some of it, it will be unpopular. >> was vietnam. >> it is always easy after the fact to second guess the outcome. to take a more contemporary example, that the war in iraq didn't go well, but the over throwing of saddam hussein was done brilliant and i would do it again. >> what about the fact we spend more than any other country and we have troops all over. 50,000 in japan, 40,000 in germany, south korea 30,000. we pay for that. >> they do actually pay a interest part of the basing expenses. i think it is a fair point that many alleys don't bear their

fair share of the cost but let's be clear, we're not doing it for them. we're doing it for us. >> how does that help us. south korea could defend itself. >> the fact is when your enemy is over seas sometimes the best place to be to defend against them is over seas. >> some ask our military to do, chase and kill terrorists, train foreign military, secure the internet, contain china, keep oil cheap, protect other countries from aggression, stop genocide and other things, the list is endless. that's part of the problem. >> that's your list and with all due list it didn't include the notion that american strength convinces our adversaries not to

challenge us. that's not a new concept of the romans used to say, if you want peace, prepare for war. >> but doesn't stop china from doing what it is doing in the east and didn't stop russia from attacking ukraine. >> because our navy is shinking. >> if it was bigger they wouldn't have done it. >> the russians concluded weakness and decided to zploit exploit it. it is about having an overall policy. >> a previous president once said, why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground, by interweaving our destiny with other countries we entangle our feat with their ambitions. this is with george washington and obviously conditions have

changed since then. >> stunning admission, conditions have changed. >> i don't see our build up has been successful. some say we won the cold war because their economy would have caved in on itself. >> i don't believe that's the reality but some will say that. in 1797, to have the option to stay out of european conflicts only made good sense. but it was also washington who led the continental army in the american revolution. there was a president who knew how to use it effectively. thank you for that. coming up argument about immigration and i'll explain why i'm not a conservative. okay, listen up! i'm re-workin' the menu. mayo? corn dogs? you are so outta here!

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>> i know. i know. i'm sorry, last segment. i was too polite in my questions for john boldin, it's just that national defense is not my specialty so i didn't push him very hard. next time i'll push harder. i won't hold back with lou dobbs our next guest. >> this country cannot even clothe itself. 96% of our apparel comes from outside. >> that's okay. we have more choices. >> when was the last time you bought a suit. if price goes down i will be shock shocked. >> be shocked then. here's the price index for clothing. it's gone down and down.

>> not surprising he didn't like what i said about him. he said this about me. >> what a self-important ass. he is just unbelievable. doesn't understand basic economic, he's just a silly little trick waiting to do some sort of libertarian trick. unbelievable. i can't wait to see him start blowing bubbles on the air, just about all he is equip to do. >> and here we are together in our new job having a discourse. isn't america great that we can debate. >> yes, and isn't john stosel great to are have a sense of humor that carries over so many decades. it's great to work with you. i'm sure it was entirely unjustified. >> okay. >> i didn't know you were going

to keep score. wait a minute. what is this. >> we're going to talk about immigration. >> this is combative. >> i think we disagree on immigration. how would you protect the border. >> here's the way i would start, i would have a meeting between two presidents, mexico and the united states, they would meet to find out exactly what is the plan of mexico for the population of america. exactly whom do you want to be citizens of our country and we will do as we have before, we will simply bow down before you mexico and allow you to do whatever you wish. >> what do you mean. >> the mexican government is deciding who comes in to our country. they export 10% of their population. >> isn't the government going to say the individuals are sneaking in. >> no they are not snoeaking in. you don't want the u.s. government because you're

libertarian. therefore we bow down and let mexico decide our immigration policy and you call that libertarian freedom. >> well, some of it. just to be clear. this libertarian would say we need borders and border protection now. >> oh, my goodness. >> because people want to come in and murder us and because we have a welfare state some will come in and freeload. there was a time we would say let goods and people cross over. >> about 1870 would be about right. >> are immigrants good for america. >> immigrants are great for america. but america is so great for immigrants that we have a government, a society that makes decision about working in this country. come to our country, we will warmly embrace you. we just want a couple things, don't change our society. don't demand we speak your language. let us if we may help you speak ours. >> how about a path to let them

become lael. >> become legal. >> how about a path that acknowledges their responsibilities to become citizens and to put them in a position behind everyone in that legal line. >> they would have to leave the country. >> it sounds so harsh. >> it sounds impractical. >> now impractical becomes the standard. >> lou just published border war. lead character is tv host ted democrats. he sure sounds like you talking about you. >> i never do that. >> left and right wingers both tried to shut him up on illegal immigration, trying to paint democrats as a racist. that's what happened when you were at cnn, this happened to you. >> they tell me. the fact of the matter is, it is fiction.

there's a certain composite. when you mentioned that old place, you remember the old place. >> yeah. >> the fact of the matter is, i'm in such a happy new place. i would much prefer -- >> -- one section of the book said border patrol agents are assigned inpossible job and told not to apprehend too many undocumented people or risk their careers if they try. >> update. >> really? >> now they're being told not to apprehend them at all. internal immigration laws have been suspended by this immigration. >> i heard they have been deporting more people than bush. >> do you? they have cooked the books and acknowledged their numbers are phony. >> well they are still deporting people. >> well you got me there. >> thank you lou dobbs.

i used to be liberal but then saw the light and bamg lecame libertarian. this book talks about fear of change, an inclin of using the powers of government to prevent change. bad idea. i'll explain when we come back. unlimited cash back.

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>> years ago, i was in high school, the philosopher wrote an essay entitled, why i am not a conservative. it's the post script to his great book the constitution of liberty. he said there are recognizably superior person who's standards and values ought to be protected. it is his mission to viflize others, not by voluntary and unhampered intercourse but by bringing them blessing of efficient government. he was onto something. it took me 30 years to realize it but now i'm a libertarian and i say everyone ought to be able to do anything that is peaceful. i own my own body i should be

allowed to take drugs, do self destructive things, immoral things, anything as long as i don't directly harm someone else. conservative who don't like what i do have every right to tell me i'm a jerk, to boycott me, to refuse to hire me or embarrass me. society's influence, practices a soci social tryanny more formidable leading no means of escape. so america benefits when conservative speak out against moral behavior. conservative arguments make people think about what is moral and sometimes shame us into better people. shaming is one thing. force of law, another. using law meeans people with gus demand everyone behave the way the majority thinks it should.

government should avoid using that power. it has nasty unintended side effects. prohibition, by driving activy underground causes crime and increases secrecy even violence. in a free society persuasion is better than government force but many people say that's not enough. this man says he's not a libertarian. >> libertarians are just a little bit too free. we need discipline. the government's job is to supply law and order for the people. >> wait a second i'm for law and order. libertarians support laws against harming others and against fraud and pollution. we want order. we just want a limit on government power.

libertarianism or liberalism was a reaction against monarchy and the declaration of independence said individuals have unalienable rights, mean, the state must not take away your choices. if you want to bet own the stanley cup, burn a flag, or sell your kidney, that ought to be your choice. now he also wrote, one ever the fundamental traits of conservative is fear of change and distress of the new. conservative use the powers of government to prevent change, they lack faith and spontaneous forces of adjustment. this is different to reck yorec with preservation of liberty. it is. conservative are willing to debate me. even those who disagreed with my

ideas welcomed me to their conferences or radio shows. by contrast supposedly open-minded liberals wanted nothing to do with me. one guy was a smart guy went to harvard and surely he would see the damage our giant welfare state cost. plus our kids had gone to school together. eye i was sure he would debate me the way i argue with conservatives. no wrong. he screamed at me. >> i'm al frank in, an end to the right wing dominance of rayio. the beginning of battle for truth, justice and indeed for america itself. not to be grandiose. >> please, now he's senator frankin. he wouldn't debate me. he just yelled. my point was that i never found

much openness in the liberal media that's why i left abc and happ happily came here where conservative and libertarianals eager to debate. that's our show. see you next time. >> hello, and welcome to a brand new hour of inside america's news head quarters. >> hi everyone. topping the news this hour, radical islamist militants making new game in iraq with the u.s. making poise for action. and the irs e-mail scandal. what happened to all the e-mails, the agency claims they lost a huge chunk of potential evidence. and the he said he