we will see you tomorrow. >> our party is encumbered by the inconsistent approach >> our party is incumbered to freedom. >> every american sports freedom. but conservatives don't want you to be free to gamble. >> gambling have negative consequences. >> conservatives don't want people to be free to take drugs. >> young adults use marijuana. >> when the supreme court gave young people freedom to marry they were not happy. >> they were offensive. >> you want to police the world. conservatives want a bigger building. >> we are not doing it for them we are doing it for us. >> they want stronger border patrol. one said this about me.

>> we want government to leave us a i loan. >> libertarians verses conservatives. that's our show tonight. >> the biggest threat to america's future is big government. most conservative and lir tearians agree with that. the $17 trillion debt may crush them. the politicians promise to spend more. when will they are not spending your money they pass more rules strangling freedom aftered killing he can knockic growth. most lir tearilibertarians and conservatives agree that america

should allow people to drill for oil, have religious freedom, free speech and a more limited welfare state. private charity is better. when it comes to foreign policy and personal freedom they want gambling bans as well as designer babies. i will cover that in a future show. the biggest clearest difference is libertarians think the war on drugs is just nuts. let's start there. allen which is wes is a proud conservative. you say our republic cannot survive if we continue to advocate the freedom of truths yet by banning intoxicants you take away people's freedom to choose. >> you are not talking to the

right guy. i have never smoke or drank in my life. >> you are a good conservative to talk to. you made a personal joyce. >> if someone wants to make a personal choice that they want to do xshg that is fine in their realm. i forget the supreme court justice who said you were right to punch to my own nose. >> if it is what happens you need to have these types of programs to take care of the drug addicts and provide them. >> that is like saying we should ban fattedy meat. >> there are things that are detrimental to the person which means detrimental to society. you have got to make sure there is a level of personal responsibility that is there my point is the federal government is allowing people to be less

and less responsible by saying we will take care of it. >> when you say personal responsibility how is it personal responsibility if government bans something? oo he was the dedz nated driver. i want to go out i want to have a good time. >> their choice was to drink. >> nobody else wants to snort cocaine. why do i want to stop them? >> i think that's a detriment to society. don't they own their own body? >> if you want to do it do it in your own speer. >> you would be fine with that being legal? >> you have it here in new york city. there are executives. we saw the film on wall street and what he was doing.

if you are an adult you can be responsible for that decision then fine. but i don't want it>> what do you mean, fine? it's illegal. you would lock people up for that. >> i don't want to be response i am for something that happens. i don't want to be the one that suffers the consequences of john stossel out high on cocaine then i lose my life. what you are doing can't have an effect on me. that is where we have to be smart and have rules and regulations. >> why is the getting high itself illegal? >> that is an overall concern of what is the debt kriment to an individual. you see people talking about sugary sodas and everything like that. i think you have a government that is getting into the over reach of trying to manage and

modify. >> why is that over reach for the law against heroin now? >> i think heroin is a different type of substance than going down and having a big gulp soda. >> you never even drank because? >> i never saw my parents drink. >> you ever serious. ever want to alter your consciousness through a drug? >> i like being responsible and being able to make the right decisions in my life. >> do you fault those who do? >> that is why he was the designated driver for my friends in the military. >> the founders were out there throwing back whiskey ad nauseam. >> the bar tab for a party for george washington the days before they signed a constitution 60 bottles of claret, 54 bod dells of madeira. 22 bottles of porter. they were getting wasted.

>> let's find out where we do agree socialism is bad for the country. >> we agree on that. >>ing it being it's a tax issue. >> we should be able to pay whoever we want how much we want hieb who hire who we want. >> we agree with opportunity for few fewer generations not peelt who want to deck kate outcomes. that's where big government has gone. >> should people be allowed to gamble? >> i think they should. if you want to go out that's your money. why should john stossel want to -- if you get in physical debt with your own problem. >> my problem.

>> gay marriage? >> civil union. >> marriage for men and women and civil unions for others. >> burn a flag? >> i have problems with that. that flag i saw draped over my father's cough fin will be over mine and my brother's i have a problem with that. >> i have a problem with that, too. but i say it should be legal. thank you, al len west. another form where they usually don't agree, gambling. i like to bet. i will get with friends on most anything baseball games an election, which way a ball will roll. organized sports betting is banned. on-line and casinos are banned. in some states even bets against friends are against the law.

americans can be jailed for gambling. many consider it is sin. some people are hurt by gambling. some bet the house and lose it. bill o'reilly owe gives me a hard time because you can get addicted to it. >> you can lose the rent money. almost like narcotics. >> i doubt poker is as addictive as cocaine. even if it were as a libertarian once i am an adult it ought to be my choice. alex mcfarland says libertarians are wrong about that? >> gambling people attempt to try to defend it saying it's my money it is only me. but it touches other people. >> everything touches other people. >> sue sides increase.

the suicide capital of america is las vegas, nevada. economically spiritually socially there's a number of reasons conservatives especially conservative christians would be against gambling. >> it's my money, my choice. >> let me talk about the bigger issue which is morality. america was founded on belief of an objected transcended moral code. all men are enjoyed by their creator with certain enalienable rights. life pursuit of happiness. you can call it the ten commandments. >> why can't i bet? a moral code says i have the choice to do a moral thing or not. >> no man is an island. our choices have a rip tell effect and touch the lives of

others. there are misconceptions about the benefit. >> if i want to risk my money playing black jack. >> we have to acknowledge there's a god. our founding fathers believed in god and morality. if you don't want to be a christian you don't have to a christian but don't destroy the what gives you the freedom not to be a christian safely. do you see what i mean? >> to me my relationship with god is personal. i only can make a moral choice if i am free to gamble or not ban it. -- gamble. if you ban it you are making that choice from me. >> your coming to god is contingent on the freedom to gamble or not? >> it is economically

detrimental and socially detrimental. it's contrary to the moat tho methods that we want to send to our children. >> some kids learn matt playing poker. american use 12-17, 08 percent gabled in gambling 4-5 teens gambled in the last 10 days. money is not to be handled responsibly indebtedness is okay. oo i think kids playing poker learn to handle money responsibly. we agree to disagree. thank you. what do you think about this? >> twitter hash tag t lot verses tcot. they stand for top libertarians on twitter and top conservatives on twitter. search the hash tag you can see what libertarians and conservatives think. prostitution, gay marriage,

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>> i don't care who you marry. you want to marry someone of your own gender, fine.

most libertarians say fine. in fact most of us don't see why government should be involved in marriage at all. it ought to be a private contract between consenting adults. they declared restrictions on gay marriage unconstitutional. >> it is a sad day for americans. those who hurt the most in my opinion are the children of america. it is clearly every child deserves a mom and a dad. >> they are so offensive they attack someone who has no jurisdiction over whatsoever. >> allowing gays to marry threatens that? i don't see how gays getting ma ir idea would threaten my marriage. here to educate me is ryan anderson the author of what is

mare yaj men and women a defense. >> i think the family has been under attack for the last 40 or 50 years. it is not unique to the question of same sex relationships. dave verse, out of wedlock there are a whole host of problems. the family is the heart of civil society. you can't have limited government without strong civil society. the government encouraged them to act exclusively as husband and wife. they are a mother and a father. >> why can't government encourage two men or women to do the same thing? >> once you get rid of female you have monday nothing fee exclusivity. >> what does one have to do with the other? >> the way we got to number two is monday nothing fee one man and one woman who can have a new life and every new life has one

mother and one father. why not marry the people you love and if marriage is about adult romance why should it be permanent rather than temporary. once you take away from it you are creating something that is degenerative. >> you allow infirt el people to marry and people who are too old to bare children to marry. it is not just about childbearing. >> the fact of the matterer is every child is a union of man and a woman. they do best buy being raised by the man and woman who created them. they one day grow up to be a self sufficient autonomous adult who is not relying on the states through well pair fir programs. >> who is to say two leddians aren't going to do a letter job than selfish men? oo every child tee serves to have the man and a whom who

created the child to raise the child. >> what about those who get in vitro vertzation. >> we are not criminalizing but we don't want to innocent fiez thighs activities either. no one suggests we should take them randomly from hospitals but when they are unable to do that we recognize adoption as something necessary to make up for a lack. no one would suggest that adoption is the ideal. >> do you have a problem with homosexual oolity itself? >> as a policy matter that doesn't matter whatsoever. that's the one thing about libertarians and conservatives we can leave some of our moral convictions aside with the public policy concerns are of the institution of marriage. what we are concerned about is when the baker or florist or christian adoption agency is coerced penalized shut down by the government from wanting to treat the union of a man and a woman on marriage in a way that

d distinctive of two men and women. adoption agencies force out finding homes for orphans because they wanted to find moms and dads for orphans. how is that live and let li? >> they would agree with you on that. if i open a business i should be able to serve anybody i want. judge orders a colorado bakery it must cater same sex wedding. i might boycott that bakery because i think they are marrow minded but if that's what they want to do the other cases wedding photographers, another wrists that's outrageous. when someone said they ought to have the right the arizona governor backed off. there is a new gay mafia policing america saying you can't even disagree with that. you cannot hire her to be the

photographer shouldn't be able to fine her. >> libertarian conservatives on sex, getting paid for sex. the legal prostitutes in nevada say legal is better. >> here it states we have a problem. >> brook tailor says sex works is like any other sales job. >> we are independent contractors just like any other business. {off-lin {off-line} a yummy reward is important after a good workout

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one of our favorite things to do is going to the dog park togher. setimes my copd makes it hard to breathe. so my doctor prescribed symbicort. it helps significantly improve my lung functio starting within five minutes. symbicort doesn't replace a rescue inhaler for suddesymptoms. with symbicort, today i'm breathing bett. come on, boy! [ female announcer ] symbicort is for copd, includg chronic bronchitis and emphysema. it should not be taken more than twice a day. symbicort contains formoterol. medicines like formoterol increase the risk

of death from asthma problems. symbicort may increase your risk of lung infections, osteoporosis, and some eye problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. man ] now symbicort significantly improves lung function, starng within 5 minutes. and that makes a differen in my breathing. tod, i'm hanging out withy best friend. talk to your ctor about symbicort. i got my first prescription free. call or gonline to learn more. [ male announcer ] if you can't afford your mication, astrazeneca may be able to help. john: sex is >> sex is legal, fornication is legal. what is not legal in most of america is prostitution. to put it crudely. sex is okay. making money is okay. but sex for money is not. why not? monica crowley has volunteered

to explain it for me. explain. >> i am not adverse to the freedom argument. which you on the libertarian side make this is a good and service there's a demand and supply but the social cost is far too high. de criminalizing pros cushion tears at the social fabric in a way that once that door is open you can't restore. it is a gich it is a gift to sex traffickers. >> if it's legal you don't need a pimp. >> even where it is legal you get an increase in hidden illegal and chile prostitution as well. >> it opens the door to darkness. >> child prostitution is darkness. it is secret. where things are legal you don't

have see darkness. >> it leads to increase in child pros cushion. it doesn't protect women and doesn't protect children's health it expands this. >> holland, switzerland, illegal, china, croatia, egypt. it seems they are on the side of illegal sex. >> it is a special case. there has been a pure can tal strain. they are founded on jaud deyo christian morals and ethics. those views may change overtime. but the con kens ssensus is prostitution should remain illegal. >> what do you say to the women

who say this is my body a boxer or quarterback can make his body to use money. >> boxers and quarterbacks are wearing clothes. >> that makes all of the difference? >> when they say it is my body it should be my choice i would argue with that you have a client who is paying for the service. you might have a third person involved. >> you are involving more than one person. >> good. share the happiness. so what. >> the thing that makes sex so different even if you are using protection it is still a process that can lead to another life. it is more sacred than say drug use. >> in nevada prostitution is legal. in 16 nevada counties. they run a place called the bunny ranch and told them sex is supposed to be spontaneous not a business deal.

the state department calls what you do inherently de mining. >> don't you model for money? it's the same thing. >> i choose to do this. this is what i want to do. >> they want to. >> they want to. libertarians say once you are an adult that ought to stay once you don't effect anybody else. >> if if they earn a living that way they can go there. for the country we have reached the national consensus where the united states from a more cal standpoint doesn't want to condone this activity. >> you say thank god for that? >> for now, yes. >> coming up our next guest is

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john: >> i want america to be safe. so do conservatives. some libertarians want less military spending less involvement in other people's problems. some conserveties sponged p respond this way. >> they are making big headlines i think is a very dangerous thought. >> some conservatives call libertarians isolationists. i am glad americans trade with other countries trade goods and people. it is great we sell foreigners our music our ideas. i want to pa at theing peelirti

world but not run it. seems some cone serve ticonserv do. you want to police the world. >> i think most of what you just said is completely irrelevant to foreign policy decision making. from a conservative point of view. ifr i think you define what america's interests are and then try to understand how best to protect them. what are our interests and how best do we protect them? >> let's gept specific. you supported the iraq war. >> correct. you think we should use force to stop iran from getting a nuclear weapon? >> yes. >> you would attack? >> yes. after we failed to use the potential peaceful means we are

down to a situation where this there are only two options either they get the nuclear weapons. it is an unpalatable choice but that's where we are. the people of iran are smart enough to understand that if we attack their nuclear weapons program but also help over throw the regime the people of iran will be in a better place than today. >> they wofrnt hate -- won't ha for killing their relatives? >> was vietnam a good intervention? >> i think the way it played out it was not. the issue is easy after the fact that second-guess the outcome. oo you could say the over throw was not good but the over throw of sadam hussein was good.

i would do it again knowing the even events after that. >> what about that we spend more than any other country. we have 50,000 in japan. 40,000 in term knee 30,000 in south korea. >> we pay a considerable part of the basing expenses. many allies don't bare the fair share of the costs. we are not doing it for them. we are doing it for us. >> south korea can defend itself. >> when enemies are over seas sometimes the best place to be to defend them is be overseas. >> some people ask us to chase and kill terrorists train foreign militaries to space terrorists. keep oil cheap. protect other countries from

aggression. stop genocide protecting innocent people which you have said you don't support the list sendless. >> with all dupree terespect t- due respect it doesn't have the notion that american strength convinces our ad sar res no the to challenge us in the first place. that is not a new concept. romans used to say if you want peace prepare for war. >> it didn't stop china from doing what it is doing now in the east. >> if it was bigger they wouldn't have done it? >> the russians looked at the obama administrationstration and said they saw weakness and decided to exploit it. >> had they spent more money they wouldn't have?

>> adventurism in ukraine is going to be met with a response from the united states. >> a previous president once said this. why quit our own to stand on foreign ground by interweaving our destiny in former countries we intertangle them. this was george washington. positions change sin-- conditio changed since then. >> stunning admission conditions change. >> i don't see aside from world war i frthat our build up or intervention was that successful. some say we won the cold war because it caved in on itself and would have any way. >> what washington was saying in 1797 to stay out of conflicts made sense. it was washington that led the

continental army in the american revolution. there was a man who knew when to use force and how to use it effectively. unlike other presidents since then. >> on that note thank you. i will argue with a conservative about immigration and i will steal frederick hayek's phrase to explain why i am not a conservative. what you wear to bed is your business. so, if you're sleeping in your contact lenses, ask about the they're approved for up totacts 30 nights of continuous wear. ask youroctor about safety information as serious eye problems mayccur. visit airoptix.com for a free one-month trial. all stations come over to mithis is for real this time. step seven point two one two.

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>> i know last segment i was too polite in my questions for john bolton. national gdefense is not my specialty so i didn't push him very hard. next time i will push harder and i won't hold back with our next guest. the first time i interviewed lou dobbs i gave him a hard time for criticizing out sourcing and free trade. >> this country cannot clothe itself. 96 percent of the apparel. >> we have more choices for less money. >> when was the last time you bought clothes because if your prices went down i would be shocked. >> be shocked then. >> here's the priet index for clothing. it has gone down and down. >> not surprising lou dobbs didn't like what i said about him on his radio show.

>> what a self important ass. us unbelievable. he doesn't understand basic economics. he's a silly little trick waiting to do some sort of libertarian flip. it is unbelievable. i can't wait until he starts blowing bubbles on the air. that's about all heeasy kwipt t do. >> here we are together in our new job having a discourse. isn't fox great? isn't america great that we can debate those. >> isn't he great to have a sense of museum more that carries over so many decades. it is great to work with you. i must have been a little bit exercised at the moment. i am sure it was entirely unjustified. >> what is this?

>> we are going to talk about immigration. >> how would you protect the border? >> here's the way i would start. i would have the meeting between two presidents the president of mexico and youiti united states. they would meet to find out what is the plan of mexico for the population of america. who do you want to be citizens of our country and we will simply bow down before you mexico and allow you to do whatever you wish? >> i mean the mexican government is deciding who comes into you are oh country. they are exporting about 10 percent of their population. >> doesn't the government want the individuals sneaking in? >> no they are not sneaking in. >> you are being sarcastic. >> you don't want it to be the u.s. government because you are libertarian. we bow down and we let mexico

decide what our immigration policy is. i ca you call that libertarian freedom. >> some of it. this libertarian would say we need border protection because people want to come in and murder us and because we have a welfare state and people could come and freeload. we would have said let good and people cross borders. >> are immigrants good for america? >> they are great for america. america is great for immigrants. america is so great we have a government and society that makes decisions about who we want to work in this country. come to our country we will warmly embrace you. we just want to couple of things. don't change our society. don't demand we speak your language. let us if we may help you speak ours. >> how about a path to thlet th

become legal. >> acknowledges their responsibility to become citizens and put them in a position behind everyone in the legal line. it sounds so harsh and inhuman. >> impractical. >> it becomes the standard. >> lou published a book called border war. a thriller but a lead character is tv host ted dempsey. he sounds like you talking about you, lou. >> left and right wingers try to shut him up on illegal immigration try to paint him as economic isolationist. when you were with cnn this happened to you? >> they tell me. the fact of the matter is it is fiction. there is a person composite.

you know, you were in an old place i remember. i am in such a happy new place. >> one section says border patrol agents are assigned an impossible job in a form they wouldn't be allowed to secure the border and told not to apprehend too many undocumented people or risk their careers if they tried. >> they have been told not to apprehend them at all. >> you are supporting more people than bush did. >> they cook the books and that in fact acknowledged their numbers were phony. >> you got me there. >> i used to be a liberal. i saw the light and became libertarian.

i did not become a conservative for the same reason the constitution is liberty. a fundamental trade of conservative sphere of change and inclination to use the powers of government to prevent change. bad idea. >> bad idea. i will explain when we come back. the kids get trail mix, and here's what you get after a full day of chasing that cute little poodle from down the street. mm hmm delicious milo's kitchen chicken meatballs. they look homemade, which he likes almost as much as making new friends

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seeing the world in reverse, and i loved every minute of it. but then you grow up and there's no going back. but it's okay, it's just a new kind of adventure. and really, who wants to look backwards when you can look forward?

>> yearis ago i was in high school. he wrote a book entitled why i am not a conservative. it's the postscript to the book the constitution of liberty. hayek said the conservative position rests on the belief that there are recognizably superior persons whose standards and values ought to be protected. the conservative regards it his his mission to civil lies others not by voluntary and unhampered intercourse by but brining them the blessings of efficient government. blessings with sar kachl. hayek was on to something it took me 30 years to come to it. now i am a libertarian and i say any one be able to do anything that's peaceful. i own my own body i should be allowed to take drugs, gamble,

do self destructive things, immoral things, anything as long as i don't directly harm someone else. conservatives who don't like what i do have every wriright t tell me i am a jerk to pick at my activities to boycott me to refuse to hire me or embarrass me. society's influence wrote john stewart practices social tyranny more formidable than any kinds of political persuasion since it leaves fewer means of escape penetrating more deeply into the details of life. they speak out against behaviors and make me think about what is moral and sometimes shame us into being better people. shaming is one thing. force of law another. using law means people with guns everyone behaviors the way majority thinks they should. some avoid using that power because it has nasty unintended

side effects. prohibition by driving activities under ground in black markets causes crime. it increases secrecy, deceit even violence in other countries. in a free society moral and social pressure persuasion is better than government force. many petell me that's not enoug. this man tells me he is not a libertarian. >> libertarian is just a little bit too free. we need discipline. >> i am into law and order. libertarians support law against robbing and killing people physically harming others. most libertarians support laws against fraud and pollution. we want order. we want a limit on government

power. lir tabilibertarianism was a reaction against monarch de and repressive religion. the decoration laration of inde said we have unalienable rights. even if i disagree with your choices the state must not take it away. if you want to bet on the stanley cup burn a flag or sell your kidney that ought to be your choice. hayek wrote it is a speered change a timid distress of the new conservatives to use the powers of government to prent change. they lack faith and spontaneous forces of adjustment. this is difficult to reconcile with the preservation of liberty. it is. yet when i became libertarian i was struk by the different reactions i got from liberal verses conservative. conservatives were willing to debate me even those who disagreed with my ideas welcomed me at conferences or on their

radio show. by contrast sews he hadly open minded liberals wanted nothing to do with me. i thought i had a shot at a fair debate with one who just started hosting a radio show. he was a smart guy went to harvard. sheerl he would see the damage our giant welfare state costs. plus our kids were in school together. we had gone to the samed birthday parties. i was sure he would debate me the way i argued with conservatives tonight. no. wrong. he screamed at me. the radio host was this man. >> i am al franken, an end to the right wing dominance of talk radio, the beginning of the battle for truth, a battle for justi justice, a battle indeed for america itself not to be grandiose. >> please. pretty grandiose. senator frank en. he wouldn't debate me. he just yelled. my point is that i never found much openness in the liberal

media. that's why i left abc and happily came here where liberals and conservatives are earring gar to debate. that's our show. see you next week. is our show canc kelly, thank you for joining us. i'm megyn kelly. this is "the kelly file." >> we met at a dance, he was the first person who ever kissed me. i almost fainted from excitement. >> he packed up mother and me and moved out to odessa, texas. and i always have admired him for his pioneering spirit. >> our dad is probably the sweetest person you would meet. he is very kind and good and old