jon: that last story triggered a monstrous discussion in our studio here of who makes the best fast food burgers. jenna: we want to hear from you on that. jon: and the baby's vote? jenna: fair and balanced, jon, i can't pick favorites. jon: we'll see you back here in an hour. jenna: "outnumbered" starts right now. ♪ ♪ >> this is "outnumbered," i'm kimberly guilfoyle, and here today harris faulkner, sandra smith, katie pavlich and today's hashtag one lucky guy, tucker carlson. laugh -- [laughter] he is outnumbered and looking good. you kind of match harris. >> about 5:15 this morning, what dress. are you wearing? she always says, what tie are you wearing? >> so you're saying she texted you just like ed henry. >> i like to think more, but

that's just me. >> you guys look like you're ready for this. i hope you're ready for the show. >> hey, baby. >> we're ready. >> let's rock, let's roll. >> hearings on the irs scandal, round two. last night it was irs commissioner john koskinen, on the hot seat today, white house lawyer jennifer o'connor, one of the lead irs attorneys who oversaw the response to congressional demand for lois lerner's records. republicans pressuring her if she knew the e-mails were lost possibly forever after her computer crashed in 2011. the hard drives since destroyed, a stunning disclosure. congress was not told about that until last week. >> seems like everyone knows this stuff until, except the congress, and we don't get it until months later. >> so, again, i'd like to be as helpful as i can -- >> well, it would have been helpful if you'd have had those answers to those questions. do you know if the white house counsel's office that once, in

fact, they got that information that the e-mails in a critical two-year time frame were lost, do you know if the white house counsel's office told the fbi and told the justice department? >> so what i can tell you is what i knew when i was at the irs. >> i'm talking about now. you work at the white house counsel's office. they knew this information this april, we didn't know it until june. in that time did the white house counsel's office tell the fbi? i remember what he said, he's angry about this, this is outrageous, this is all the things he said when this scandal broke, so i'm wondering if you get important information like lois lerner's information was lost, did you share that with the agency doing the criminal investigation to say, hey, this is serious, we better get this information to the fbi and the justice department? >> did you guys do that? >> i'm happy to answer your questions about the time i was at the irs. >> did your boss, did the folks you work for at the counsel's office, when they got this critical information, did they share it with the justice department? >> mr. eggleston started the

same day i did, so our tenures are the same -- >> he's the one that wrote the letter to dave camp saying they learned of it in april. when he got that important information, did he get it to the folks who were running the criminal investigation? that's important. >> what i'm -- >> or do you think there's no duty for the white house when they got critical information, there's no duty, no obligation to share that with the department who's running a criminal investigation? you don't think they have to do that? >> can i answer the question? >> the gentleman's time has expired. you may answer. >> can i answer the question? i'm happy to work with you and your staff to try to give you information as we can to answer your questions -- >> if i could, that wasn't the question. >> she was thinking, calgon, take me away. can i be anywhere but here? [laughter] like somewhere sipping a latte? that was brutal, harris. >> yes, that was brutal. that was brutal. and she then was determined to get her word in, can i answer the question, and then didn't

answer the question. >> right. >> but, you know, what really struck me as i watched this last night, and i know you were on twitter, katie, because i follow you, and there were so many people live tweeting this. people were like drop the mic and walk away, these people have no answers. not only did they have all weekend the prepare, right? like a final exam, they have given 15 questions ahead of time by representative issa. all they had to do was study up. >> how's that not fair, right? >> i'm just flabbergasted. but one thing struck me, and i'm going to use katie as my example of people on fire. 2-5% of the irs employees, this is your tweet, have hard drives. lois lerner just happened to be one of those employees at the right time. there is such a suspension of belief in all of this. it's amazing to me. >> yeah. >> amazing. >> and that's the the biggest problem. and we heard again last night that chairman issa told the irs commissioner, look, your credibility is on the line, and your credibility is gone. and when you have the commissioner refusing to

apologize for not even just not complying with congress, but also for the targeting that went on beforehand which is really the issue here, you know, that is something that he's going to have to come up with. and it goes to show that although democrats were apologizing to the commissioner last night, they were apologizing this morning for the treatment, you know, representative jackie speier accused republicans of badgering the witness at some point. asking tough questions on a very serious issue which is the irs being used as a political weapon against people to silence them ahead of elections is a very serious thing that requires tough questions, it doesn't mean that they're being badgered or disrespected in front of congress. >> and the thing that really struck me, i was watching it the same way at the super bowl. hi house had to watch it, we were glued to it. it was the opening statement of the irs commissioner and how he went on the to politicize the inefficiencies of the irs pointing out it's not unusual for computers to fail. in fact, he went on to say that because of recent budget cuts

that it's extremely not unusual that their computers fail because of old technology that the irs employees are forced to use, and he went on to actually bring that up several more times in questioning. he referred to the lack of money that the irs had access to for the inefficiencies and the failure of these computers that led to -- >> he blamed the whole thing on a failure, on a bunch of problems, to which i say, well, wait a second, if i don't pay my taxes, can i just say, well, i just don't have the money to comply with the irs regulations? this is exactly why how that exchange is the reason the democrats on the committee were so apoplectic about o'connor being called. they have the answer to every question, they're just not giving them. and that looked awful. >> there aren't any good answers. it all shows misdeeds, and let's be honest, malfeasance on their part. but it just keeps getting

better. this is the exchange between jason chaffetz and john koskinen. >> the irs was going to extraordinary lengths to give it to the recovery team, correct? >> that's correct. >> but it's backed up on tape. >> for six months, yes. >> and that was within the six month window, so why didn't you get them off the backup? >> all i know about that is that the back withup tapes -- backup tapes are disaster recovery tapes, and extracting e-mails out of that is very costly and difficult, and it was not the policy at the time. >> did anybody try? >> i have no idea, indication that they did. >> i love that segment. >> unbelievable. >> that's just a middle finger though. he's just saying i don't have to answer your questions. >> he called it what it is, and he didn't even probably mean to. this was a dispatcher. our liberties were stepped on. you know, these weren't just conservative political groups, these were some groups in -- you're smiling. you know what i'm talking about.

this was wider than just politics. i mean, there were some israeli groups that were kept from their tax-exempt status, and they were delayed as well. this was a liberty issue for all of us. >> yeah. >> to me, that is a disaster, and it was inherent in what he was saying. they should have backed it up and looked at the backup. >> it should matter. as bad as you thought this was, it keeps getting worse pause their answers are -- because their answers are so evasive and so deficient that it really makes you question. and the irs, this isn't just like the epa or anybody else, this is the irs who's keeping tabs on all of us, and they're not keeping tabs on themselves. it's shameful and incompute bl, so there has to be some accountability and repercussions here. i don't know who's going to do it, but at least they're asking the questions. take a listen to the attorney for the groups targeted by the irs, and then we'll get our thoughts. >> now they're saying that they just conveniently lost the most relevant e-mails of the central figure in this investigation who

has pleaded the fifth to avoid potential criminal prosecution? really? i mean, this is not a tv mystery. this is real life. >> it's real life. >> this is real life. and this political theater last night, i'm thinking to myself this script wrote itself, you know? nobody's had to make up anything here. and, katie, i don't know about you, but i sat there and watched this last night in anger because we just still didn't get any answer, and not once did we hear the irs commissioner say, you know, i can understand how everything falling together like this, this must just look really bad, and it looks bad. >> right. and last week he said an apology is not owed. he had the same attitude last night, and it's really important to pay attention to details here. when the irs commissioner talks about personal computer hard drive crashes, we're not getting into the fact that we're not talking about servers, okay? there's a huge difference between someone's personal hard

drive crashing and servers, and they had a whole contract with a company that does exactly that, saves e-mails and servers off -- >> everybody does that. >> you know the nsa has those e-mails, and if not the nsa, edward snowden. [laughter] all right, first hillary clinton said she isn't truly well off. now we're learning her daughter chelsea says she tried to care about running but could not. the impact all this money talk could have on hillary if she runs. also, all that time your kids spent playing video games may end up paying off.o. e-sports, baby, on the way. ♪ ♪ can take care of virtually all your important legal matters in just minutes. now it's quicker and easier for you to start your business, protect your family, and launch your dreams. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. is is mike. his long race day starts with back pain...

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hard to care about things that were very different from my parents. i was curious, and i couldn't. that wasn't the metric of success that i wanted in my life. chelsea lives in a nearly $11 million new york city apartment. she bought it with her husband, a millionaire hedge fund manager. their wedding reportedly cost more than $3 million. this as her mother, the former secretary of state hillary clinton, keeps making gaffes on financial matters. her latest, insisting she isn't truly well off after saying she and the former president left the white house dead broke and in debt. she's made there are 5 million on -- $5 million on speeches and appearances just since leaving the state department. meantime, it looks like vice president joe biden may be trying to set himself apart from the clintons. >> now, the first thing he's going to say is not biden, man? he's got a mildly expensive suit on. [laughter] he's vice president of the united states of america.

he makes, no withstanding -- notwithstanding he's the poorest man in congress, he stills make a lot of money as the vice president of the united states. and be i do, by the way. i do. [laughter] don't hold it against me i have no savings account, but i've got a great pension, and i've got a good salary. >> hmm. >> wow. >> i don't know, tucker, but i'm tempted to hit the chelsea thing first. by definition if you're in a position to not care about money, aren't you rich? >> well, then you inherited it. the only people you ever hearsay i don't care about money are trust far januaries. it is the most annoying trope ever. i just feel like smacking people. i don't really care about money. really? because you don't have to worry about it. >> you don't have to care about it. >> be quiet, please. >> right, go away. >> by the way, biden, pretty charming. have to say. [laughter] >> it's true, actually, biden doesn't have any money. >> yeah, i like it. >> he did the one thing that hillary clinton hasn't been able

to do on this issue, and that was just own who he is. >> right. >> this is where i came from, this is where i am and, yeah, you're right, i make a lot of money. he was pretty transparent, i thought. you know what? you do a lot of business news. i'm a huge fan of fbn. >> thank you, harris. >> i have never heard you mention the world million as many time as you did in that intro. >> you guys bring up a great point, you know, biden really putting himself out there who he is. you know, hillary clinton may be trying to do that, but it's not exactly who she is, as we learn. when biden joined the obama ticket, kimberly, in 2008, he was the poorest senator. although that was still largely much, you know, holding much more money than the average american but still the poorest senator. so maybe he is in a position to say such things. >> i'm liking him right now. i've got a little heart around his head, and i like his candor. [laughter] he's fresh, you know? come on. he's saying, yeah, i've got

money and i'm making a good salary. thank you for acknowledging that because there's american families out there working really hard to put ends together especially in this economy, and i feel like he's very relatable. i don't know whathill eye's saying -- hillary's saying you want to be president of the united states, what is she talking about? we're going to put her in the white house to be in the charge of an economy somebody who was getting all this money paid and then, what, couldn't manage it? >> yeah. >> this is the issue. the issue is not that hillary clinton is rich. being rich is not a bad thing. >> no! >> this is not about rich people being bad or evil. >> don't say you're dead broke. >> this is about hillary clinton being a complete hypocrite along with chelsea. chelsea doesn't have to worry about it because she's a clinton. hillary clinton doesn't have to worry about it because she's rich, and she's out there publicly as a public person and again potential politician in the tush saying being rich is a bad thing, that mitt romney was a bad guy because he had money. just own it and then promote policies that say i live a great

life was i have multimillions of dollars. i wish that everyone could live the life that i do -- >> and let me help you live that life when i'm president. >> i'm not a rich guy either -- >> you're doing pretty well. >> yeah. i'm unbelievably rich myself. [laughter] i'm not making money from the nigerians per speech. you're making 200 grand minimum for an hour's work. don't lecture me about how hard you're working. how pompous and entitled is that? >> i don't think she's coachable. like my brother in junior high. he wasn't coachable, she may have the skill set or ability, but she's not listening. >> part of the coaching might have to include what her daughter says. >> well, that's interesting. yeah. >> i have to go, harris. this is the second time i think i've cut you off. >> that's okay. >> all right, we'll be back in just a second. a new poll showing president obama with his worst numbers yet for his handling of foreign policy. the negative impact this could

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house summit on working families. he spoke about paid maternity leave, flexibility in the workplace and access to childcare. and then he said this. >> somebody asked, well, it's well known that women, you know, are more likely to vote for democrats, which i said women are smarter. [laughter] this is true. [cheers and applause] but somebody said, so isn't this working family summit political? and i said, no, i take this personally. i was raised by strong women who worked hard to support my sister and me. [applause] >> let's go to tucker first on this. there's so much to chew on with that. let's start with the women are smarter comment because they vote for democrats. >> well, they do vote for democrats, unmarried women especially. if you talk to, and they're the key component of the obama coalition. without unmarried women, there's no obama presidency. talk to democratic consultants,

and they'll say unmarried women voters vote for us because they're much more dependent on government than married women. that's their view. i take them at their word for it. they've done a lot of research on this. half the things the white house does are done to appeal to that group, they're smart and systematic about it. that's the reality. >> all right, so you bring many me to this, kimberly, that's the politics of the situation. because he's like, oh, no, no, this is not political, my being here. it's personal. >> yeah. but let me tell you something, i'm a little offended, because president obama just called me a dumb a -- [laughter] he said smart women vote democrat. what about the rest of the women out there? if you don't volt democrat, then you've got a little bit of a slow leak? [laughter] >> slow leak? >> what is he saying? what's going on? >> yeah. i would argue, you know, young single women who do vote for democrats actually are is

setting themselves up for bad policies. president obama wants to hold a summit at the white house about working, maybe he should get the economy back on track so we don't have to have the struggle and stress of a bad economy on top of trying to run us -- run a household. but the fact is democrats promote dependence on the government. it's not a good life to live. we've seen that through decades and decades of them turning that over and using that against them. during the 2012 campaign, president obama lied to young women about the fact that mitt romney was going to take away their birth control which was never actually a thing. so, you know, i would say that we're very smart, and young women smarten up and start voting against democrats. >> katie's standing her ground. >> you know what's interesting, too, is the conversation that must be happening within their household because this is a theme. women in kind of power positions, if you will, women making big decisions. michelle obama talked about it. let's watch. >> that should happen as soon as possible. [cheers and applause]

and, you know, i think this country is ready. this country is ready for thin who can do the job. and what we have learned is that the person who can do the job, is, you know, doesn't have a particular race or gender or background or socioeconomic status or, you know -- [cheers and applause] that's, the person who should do the job is the person who's the most qualified. and i think we have some options, don't we? [applause] >> all right. so what she was talking about there was who should be the next president, and she says put a woman in that position as soon as possible. and no one is missing her own policy making in all of this, right? because she's done the let's move campaign, she's pushing food policies for schools, so on and so forth. it wasn't too far a stretch to think, well, would she possibly be talking about herself for something? >> yep. could be a little bit of a hint she's dropping there. i'm never voting for anybody

because of their gender or putting a ceo at the head of a company because of a gender. i want everybody to get there on their own merit. but, look, we know that women make the big decisions in the household. women pick out the cars that are going to be bought by the household. women do the grocery shopping. and guess what? the price of gas, price of food, everything's going up. unemployment's still at historic highs. women want jobs. they want their husbands to have jobs. they want their kids graduating from college to have jobs. this is going to be the way to talk to women in the next election. >> i agree. >> it's so interesting to see democrats trying to shape the conversation where women are concerned, and as kimberly pointed out, leaving out millions of women who maybe didn't vote for a democrat last time around -- >> exactly. sweetheart, i want to be courted, come chase me, you know? [laughter] i pay the bills, i don't need a handout, but act like you care. come get my vote. >> watch out, that might happen. >> there are other things that the white house is dealing with.

meantime, as iraq descends into chaos, the president -- seeing his approval numbers on foreign policy -- taking a nose dive. a new poll finding 58% of americans disapprove of the way the president's handling foreign policy. a jump of ten points in the last month. the highest level of dissatisfaction for mr. obama and the way that he handles global affairs since he took office. and the president is seeing defections from his own party. nearly one out of three democrats are not happy with the way he conducts foreign policy. now, tucker, i think that this nose dive both with republicans, obviously, the american people and democrats comes from president obama's inconsistency on this issue. so first he said i didn't want a status of forces agreement, then he said that was the iraqis' rob, then he -- problem, then he said we weren't going to send boots in, then he sends in 300 special forces operators to go into iraq. he doesn't really know what he's saying, and it's not like democrats can depend on going one direction. >> right. he's both jumpy and reticent.

there is nothing that connects the various components of his foreign policy which is to say there is no foreign policy. there abetting the killing of gadhafi which was insane, it was unremarked upon at the time to undermining mubarak. why would we do that? bananas. the whole thick has been baa -- the thing is baa bananas. the net result is complete chaos. by the way, i was very willing to give him every benefit of every doubt on foreign policy. i was open minded. on this as compared to, you know, i disagree with a lot of stuff from the beginning, but this stuff i was ready to agree with him. >> harris, don't you think this also goes back to what president obama says and he was saying that al-qaeda's on the run? he tried to assure the american people we were safer, and now we're hearing from terrorists, from isis saying we'll see you in new york. >> yeah, they are just like blitzkrieg across a country right now that we already took. they are taking iraq back,

basically. you know what i might find interesting if we could ask the white house whether or not they're troubled by this. this is the same leader who took out osama bin laden when he was the most wanted man in the most wanted man in the world. it must be very troubling and puzzling to look at foreign policy polling seeing so far south and you dropped mic and i took usama bin laden and walked away and that was basically your foreign policy we'll put al qaeda on the run and it didn't work. it didn't work for stopping them. it hasn't worked for building support for foreign policy ideas for the very reason you're pointing out. it hasn't been a coherent policy. >> this is abject failure completely. it is sad because it is very significant what is happening right now. the middle east is falling apart. when you look at his own people are dissatisfied with him, that tells you how bad it truly is. because they can't even hide behind it and throw up partisan politics to say he is our guy and stand behind him.

it is so obvious to everybody. there is no hiding it anymore. there is great article in "politico" talking about obama's problems and what he has done to create this situation in the middle east. how he broke the middle east. this is the problem. we're feeling literally as a country has to deal with and who is going to clean this mess up? >> speaking of messes, president obama and his base wanted him to be in office because he was supposed to clean up the mess president bush left. isn't it worse now? >> arguably we're left with weaker global position. >> for sure. >> you talk about the mess we're in in the middle east and we're feeling it here at home. when you talk about the disappointment seeing from both sides of the aisle, we're literally feeling it in the form of energy prices. action that we've taken or inaction from this white house overseas has driven up oil prices. they are $107 a barrel. gas prices are skyrocketing. people are feeling it at home more ways than one. >> absolutely. we're taking you down under, the sea that is, visiting the army's

underwater combat school which marks its 50th anniversary this year. plus it is the opposite of fat camp. a summer program where campers are banned from talking about bodies or appearances. are you a fan? ♪.

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♪. >> so you heard of fat camp? think of this as the complete opposite. a growing number of summer camps are instituting no body talk rules. banning kids from talking about their own or other people's physical appearances. the idea to help teach campers how to appreciate their friend for their spirit and their character rather than how they look but some psychologists say it could lead children to very important issues that actually

need to be addressed. i'm getting a head nod here on my right. what is up, harris? >> i am. that is the time in life when you're in camp between the ages of 10 and 15 or so, when you are so curious about your body. you are focused on that i would rather much have kids bring up issues where there are adults around to responsibly talk about. camp is place to press in, sitting around the campfire, not 24 seven but it should be natural for children to feel curious about themselves and others and body image and so for the. as long as you have a positive conversation in a nuturing environment i don't want to suppress their questioning. >> this is adult dorky thing to do, no talking about this, you accentuate the reality of it. i would love it if kids are not aware of their bodies. i'm totally for this, the aims anyway. depressing when kids are worried about weight, they shouldn't be but this is not the way to do it. >> makes it awkward, wait i'm

not supposed to say. what if imin a camp with sandra, 40 spies, i like the way she dunks the ball. i really like your shorts. they're so cute. they fit you so well? can i say that. >> no. >> that is my point. >> how is seven-year-old going to think about it? >> i'm reserving judgment. kids are growing up in completely different world. i was at grocery store the other day, and 8-year-old girls in frozen food aisle, looking to see what was fat-free. eight years old. they couldn't have been older. kids are aware of the weight now and way they look. maybe they have gone overboard and need friendlier environment and some kid want to get away from that and go to camp. i don't know. >> if you tell kid you can't talk about and that means you can't encourage each other because i love the way you are. your body is a part of who you are. they're also taking a way i for kids to compliment each other.

>> leave it to katie to come to reason. >> this is general thing when it comes to be bag things like this. i thoroughly reject this idea if you take challenges away from children that somehow is protects them and prepares them for life. >> exactly. >> challenges are important. challenges are hard and sometimes it is going to be uncomfort a and will get your feelings hurt that will help you down the road into your adult years. >> it is a counterbalance to images all over the magazines. how to make yourself look thin. children are exposed to so much in written media and digital media, if there is an environment which you can have a positive conversation i'm all for it. i mean, seriously, it is going to come up anyway. the more you tell them no, the more -- >> you don't want to highlight. he loves the fox news but changed it up a little bit. mommy, this is a booby alert. let's relax. get some water. calm down funny personality.

try not to highlight -- he dances in front. mirror. feast your eyes on this. >> where did he get that? >> work this out before we go to school today, okay. but they're little, a 7-year-old, how are you supposed to manage them. a list of please don't mention, this, this. behaves well in school. the kids are curious and they're checking things out and trying to figure it out. >> the kids who are mean about body, bullies, if you tell the good kids who want to give those compliments they can't do it. , they will listen to you and not do it. kids who want to be mean and don't care about the rules will say mean things anyway. important for kids to talk about it, no, i like my friends the way they are. they're happy the way they are and you shouldn't be telling them that. there has to be ability to defend themselves as well from mean people. >> great point. >> playdate between bella and ronan. >> oh, my gosh. >> come with your most understanding nature. all right, stunning new

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... ... sentimental. i really do. that is one of the reasons they don't live as long.

>> that is gross. >> my boss was mean to me.

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first time college is offering scholarships to play videogames. that is america. we'll cover it. that is coming up. the

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♪ >> you know what will not make you sweat? playing video games. they are not adding esports to the program. a new varsity game for legal ledge sxepd they are offering scholarships for it. and here's the school's associate athletic director. and as far as traditional sport and it is not cardiovascular requirement. it is within a team and your specific role in the game is technical. >> and tucker, brian kilmeade said that cheerleading is not a sport. are you saying video games is a sport? >> this is really a sign of the

end. it doesn't warrant a debate i don't think. >> put something out there to defend the argument of taking it more seriously. >> and they make a ton of money and they make millions in tournaments and why not give scholarships if it produces professionals. and you are trying to reach out to a child or teenager based on what they are good at. and they will not put it on a school resume. and it is interesting. and it uses a certain part of your brain and attention to detail. choosing a specific one that foil less violence. >> what do you think of a guy that plays video games. >> okay. at a certain age, i don't think they should be playing the video game. it is like a lot of the folks.

>> i totally agree. >> i am on this end of the couch and step away from the wii or nintendo. and we have three shots in my family. golf, and soccer and mine craft. >> yeah. i like the golf part. >> and so it is terrible at video games. and i don't think it is a sport but it could be an academic scholarship. >> it is fine. >> and of course, i don't play video games and i am a married father of four and who has time to play video games. >> get outside. >> of course not. >> and i am totally opposed to it. go outside. >> and that is for a second thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me. and that is it for outnumbered.

we'll so you back here at noon eastern. >> three developing stories, live look at capitol hill. and a surge of immigrants crossing the border and the irs targeting scandal. challenger chris mcdaniel hoping to unsociety tha d mccrockrin. would a daniel win put the gop at risk of losing to democrats in december. and a sudannes was released from the prison yesterday and now been arrested again. what happened this time? >> and a heated hearing on capitol hill. welcome to a new hour of happening now. i am jenna lee. >> and i am jon scott. what is the agency doing