illustrates. >> yeah. >> jessie watters. >> i'm bill o'reilly. remember, that the spin stops here. we're definitely looking out for you. happy birthday, america. good evening and welcome to a kelly file special. i'm megle kelly. today we look at a film, "america," a political documentary. just released and now in theaters takes look at whether america is undergoing a fundamental transformation like the one barack obama promised us back in 2008 or something more drastic. it presents liberal arguments. that capitalism is a corrupt system that doesn't allow average american as what the president calls their fair share. this idea is now taught in our schools and colleges. you see it across a variety of

media and you hear it echoed by a number of our elected leaders. not long ago president obama wailged in claiming their success was made fob not by their own hard work necessarily but thanks in large part to the government. one take it a step further believing that in many matters personal and otherwise uncle sam knows better than the individual. we'll look first at the story of the film and then speak with the director and then debate with the man who spent his life challenging american values. sometimes with violence and always with controversy. bill ayres is here founding director of the domestic terrorist group the weather underground. first, though, let's watch a little of this film. >> dwlou convince great nation to author its own destruction? you start by telling a new story. >> if you've got a business, you didn't build that. somebody else made that happen. >> what president obama's really

saying is that the wealth and abundance of american life are not earned. they're stolen. but it's not just president obama. thievery was a critical element to the expansion of american empire. >> this is a nation founded on genocide and built on the backs of slaves. >> they call it american imperialism. >> obama didn't create this movement. it created him. >> not god bless america, not damn america. >> european expansion. genocide. >> american foreign policy has been aggressive and imperialistic for a very long time. it was expansionist immediately starting right after the rev laugsary war. >> incredible as it may seem, there are people in america who want a world without america. >> we like to think of ourselves

as a peace-loving people. if they said we're going in for the oil, we'd say no, don't do it. instead we say we're going in for democracy. >> would the united states have been a force of good or ill for the people. >> we conquered the vietnamese. we killed a couple million of them. >> m.i.t. professor noam chomsky is a leading criticism of american imperialism. >> there's a reason why most of the world regards the united states as a predatory colonial power. we overthrew the government in 1964, iran in 1963, cuban ba in 1961 and brazil, chile, uruguay, argentina. it's not a pretty record.

[ chanting ] >> never had anything like this in the country where we take on economic issues like this. >> if you want money after you get that mill downyou want a billion. after that billion you want a trillion. after trillion, you want a stillion. there is no end. there is no line. >> the charge of capitalism is that greedy selfish business owner owners feel some people. they create gross inequality. >> we're asking everybody to pay their fair share. >> pay their fair share. >> there's nobody in this country who got rich on his own. nobody. you built a factory o it there. good for you. i want to be clear.

you moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. you hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. you are all safe in your factories because the police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. >> it doesn't matter whether you're making profits from a hot dog stand in times square or if you're the biggest company on nasdaq. capitalists are under fire. >> until we change the system, and let's use the "c" word here. we're talking about capitalism. if it's a more comfortable word for you, greed. that's jut another word for it. this ultimately has to change. how much more are you going to make them suffer because some day they're not going to take it

anymore. >> these are the indictments against america. we stole the country from the native americans. we took half of mexico in the mexican war. we stole the labor of the african-american. and today our foreign policy and our free market system are forms of theft. these indictments developed separately and each has been around for a long time. but now they've come together in a single narrative of american shame. are our lives innocent on the surface? part of a ruthless engine of looting, exploitation and murder? it's a powerful critique. we can't just dismiss it with chance of liberty, freedom, rah-rah rah. the critics are raising the primary question of justice. >> with liberty and justice for all.

>> read the declaration of independence. it's a cry against injustice. for the american founder, liberty was the solution for that injustice. this is not just an attack on the 1%. it's an attack on all of us we are a nation of immigrants and settlers, and we are the ones accused of these crimes. if these things are true, something has to be done about them. >> reagan calleded the soviet union if you remember an evil empire and the soev yut union was dissolved. who's the new empire? >> well, you're sitting in it. >> one of the most vocal critics of america is professor churchill. he gained notoriety when he suggested that some of the

people in the world trade center were like nazi war criminals and deserved what they got. >> if they had acquired the atomic bomb they would have dropped it earlier. to destroy an evil regime is a good thing. >> yeah. >> so if you could drop a bomb on the united states, would you do it? >> well, if it would be justifiable in the context you just described, then by the same logic, it would be justifiable here. it's not one set of rules for everybody else and another set of rules for the united states. >> that is american suicide. but there's an alternative remedy with this theft and injustice. >> starting today, we must pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and begin again the work of

remaking america. >> to remake america, you have to unmake the america that's here now. >> you're about to witness the very exciting story of a city and its people. it is a story of a city seeking new horizons. yes, detroit is enjoying its finest hour. >> obama's remaking involves economic redistribution never before imagined. it's aimed at returning centuries of stolen goods. detroit was once the richest city in the world, the pinnacle of america. if america goes the way of detroit, that would be another kind of suicide. but is suicide the price we must pay for justice? if our wealth is stolen, then we must give it back.

♪ so is america guilty as charged? it depends on whether the story of american shame is true or not. >> you moved your goods to market on the roads that the rest of us paid for. you hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. you are safe in your factories because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. >> is senator warren right? entrepreneurs and business owners do use public services, but so does everyone else. let's say a successful business owner makes four times as much as the average employee but she also playpays four times as much in taxes. do her kids get four times the

attention in public schools? does she get to drive four times as fast on the freeway? will the fire department arrive four times faster? no, not at all. what about the rest of the world? the capitalism promotes global injustice? from businesses in the middle ea east, to factories in south america, to entrepreneurs in china, the world is embracing the free market. does it seem to you ironic that this sort of entrepreneurial capit capitalism, that this recipe has become so controversial at home here while it is being enthusiastically embraced in so many other parts of the world? i spoke to a professor of economics on global capitalism. how many people have been lifted

from poverty in india? >> over 200 people in less than 15 years have pulled out for poverty. >> in china, the numbers are even greater. >> far greater, 400 to 500 million. they started earlier. capitalism, entrepreneurialism, it's the most important. there's no reason for us to be apologetic. it's the other guys who should be apologetic. >> so is the wealth of america based on theft? actually no. the wealth of america isn't stolen. it's created. the ethic of conquest is univers universal. what's unique to america is equalit tity self determination. if ethics did not exist, america isn't the problem, america's the

answer. >> the irs, epa, doj, nsa are all collecting information and storing it on every america. welcome to the penoptican, a prison designed by jeremy betham in the 1800s. his design gave the guards a god's eye view. here there's no privacy. what bentham envisioned for prison has now become the high-tech penoptican. >> no one is listening to your telephone calls. the united states is not spying on ordinary people who don't threaten our national security. >> there's no question that the

collection of these huge amounts of data gives the government the ability to go after anybody and everybody. >> the government will as use as much power as you give it. it will always go up to and sometimes cross over the line. >> that's a real problem, you know, particularly if we're looking at everyone's internet searches, what magazines you read, what books you read. really, a lot of your life, imagine if your life is on line, they can look at your visa bill without a warrant. >> this program, by the way, is fully overseen by the fisa court. the court specifically put together to evaluate programs to make sure the executive branch or the government generally is not abusing them and that it's being carried out consistent with the constitution. >> the fisa court snoult be allowed to use the term "court." it is not a court. a court by definition means an

institution that hears both sides of a case and controversy. >> due process is in open court. adversarial processes on both sides. but it's not a secret court. fisa with nobody to advocate for the individual that's being spied upon. >> judges should not be allowed to wear robes, they shouldn't be allowed to use the world judge. they should. be allowed to misuse the word judge. it's misleading the public. >> the problem with that is it's a much different standard. innocent until proven guilty except that everything is open and they come in your house and say you've been sending e-mails to lebanon. or they get in your house and find you're not committing terrorism but they find paint from your workplace and you're

painting your home office or you have a gun. >> you can't practice commercial law, real estate law, be in the hedge fund business, do great many things without running afoul of potential criminal statu statute. >> harvey, you've written a book that has the remarkable title "three felony as day." how is it possible for an ordinary guy to commit three felony as day. >> this on a normal day, the average reasonably engaged american does at least three things that aringly can be deemed federal felonies by some am bishl department of justice prosecutor. the problem with most federal felonies is that an average northerlial person, even, i have to say, a lot of my fellow lawyers, wouldn't have a clue that what they're engaging in is arguably prosecutable. >> aaron schwartz was an internet whiz kid. at 14 he developed a new way to

publish information on the web. in his late teens he co-founded a company that merged with reddit, that's become one of the web's most frequently used social news sites. he became a vocal critic of several of president obama's policies. >> the freedom that the constitution would be built on was suddenly deleted. >> aaron schwartz was prosecuteed by the massachusetts attorney's office for allegely breaking into the computer networks at m.i.t. and downloading without authorization national articles. he was charged with crimes that would have carried a penalty of up to 35 years in prison and a million dollar find. >> the articles were funded by taxpayer money and aaron thought they should be available to the public. the government argued they were copyrighted material. >> it strikes me as

disproportion at to somebody pleading guilty to bullying. this strikes me as rather minor. >> reporter: the company who owned the articles asked federal prosecutors to dro p the charges but the prosecutor wanted to send aaron to prison. on january 11th, 2013, aaron schwartz took his own life. he was 26 years old. >> the revolution was a struggle for the creation of america. the civil war was a struggle for the preservation of america. world war ii was a struggle for the protection of america. our struggle is for the restoration of america. president reagan once said ours is the only national anthem that

ends with a question. every generation must answer that question. let us resolve to fight for america as if the outcome of the struggle depended on us alone. we cannot do anything less. this is our home. ♪ >> wow. so what does denesh de-souza hope to accomplish with this film? we will speak with the filmmaker next. turbocharged reward card with a new volkswagen turbo. so why are we so obsessed with turbo? because there's nothing more exhilarating than a powerful ride. and you can get that in places you might not expect. like the passat. and also in the fun-to-drive jetta. in fact, volkswagen has sold more turbos than any other brand over the last ten years. that is a lot of turbo. hurry in and you can get a $1,000 turbocharged reward card

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all will be well. >> to his care, commending you, as i hope that in your prayers you will commend me. ♪ >> i bid you an affection at farewell. >> abraham lincoln plays a big role in this story of telling of america. this film serves as a followup to dinesh due zee's film. that film became the most popular dock men tray in history. when due s'souza let out to mak

this. he set out to critique america. joining me now, dinesh d'souza. dine dinesh, welcome to the show. >> thank you. >> why did you choose to make this film? you grew up in india. >> while i grew up in a middle-class family in india, i grew up without a phone, television, we had a car but if you lookedthe floor, you could see the ground. when came to america i was struck by how the ordinary fellow has it in america. then i was struck by the goodness of the american people. even when they fell short they always wanted to do better. then i saw this fehr oeshist kre teak of america. it's coming from some of our most intelligent people in america on the american campus and then over the years i see

this critique me as the ta size out of the campus, out of hollywood into the media and the corridors of government. we're seeing what we call the shaming of america, attack on america. it's completely wrong-headed. what we do in the film is give plenty of space in the attack. you hear it. >> unlike michael moore, you let the other side speak. >> you heard one woman shaking with rage. she almost walked out because she thought it was a michael moor film. we want to equip americans with a deeper understanding of why this country has meant so much to the world. >> it's interesting to watch because we've heard so many of those arguments although not as in your face from the left in recent days. i mean in particular about capitalism and you include a lot of elizabeth warren in there. that you didn't build that and how we need to lee lie on uncle

sam and the critics of that argument say they're infan tallizing a nation. >> let me speak about lincoln. slavery is often used as an indictment against america. but it was used all over the world. slavery in china, egypt, after ka africa. >> it's not like we dreamt it up and started doing it on our own. >> we're the only country that fought a great war to end it and that's when lincoln ended i. 300 whites died to secure the freedom of slaves that the slaves could not have won for themselves. >> that's an interesting point. i also liked how you touched on the growth of government and how you could commit three felonies a day and not even know it. was that of particular relevance to you since you've been pushed by the federal government to pleading guilty to federal charges that you paid -- you manipulated the election system

to give donations to a candidate you like? >> i make a cameo appearance in the film and you do, too, referring to my case. what i wanted to do was tell a bigger story and the bigger story is for the first time i think in american history we have an administration that's using the powers of the state to systematically go after its critics. carter didn't do that. clinton didn't do that. this is not a matter of being a liberal or a democrat. >> did that change the way you view america? >> it stunned me little bit. i grew up in a culture where the government brings in the military to go after its critics. these are the kind of tactics that we become cynical in other countries because we're so used to this kind of thing. part of the idealism in america is it doesn't happen here but it's beginning to happen here now. >> dinesh, it's a fascinating film. we're going to have much, much more with you and somebody very interesting is going to join us in a moment as well. thank you very much for sharing

it with us. what do you think is the real story of america. send us a tweet @megynkelly. and don't forget to like our personal page which is facebook.com/megyn kelly. up next, an unbelievable debate. dinesh d'souza, and, yes, bill ayres. up next, an unbelievable up next, an unbelievable up next, an unbelievable up next, an unbelievable

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ideas. one, what the would would have been like if there was not an america and the campaign to make us feel bad about our heritage, foundation, and traditions. now we turn to the second question. is that force for america's good. back with us dinesh d'souza and former university professor bill ayres. one of founders of the violent '60s radical group the weather underground. he makes no apologies for it. he is a strong proponent of numerous policies at home and abroad. good to have you with us. >> good to see you. >> dinesh says in the movie, professor air for eor ayers, he side is exceptionally good, the other side is exceptionally bad. >> what side? >> is that bill's side? >> i don't believe there's two

sides but i have a very different view. i think america plays a role that's both good and bad in the world. that there's a tradition in america that i strongly support and it's the tradition of dissiden dissidence. radicalism. you can see from the beginning the first bill of rights was the push from below. the abolitionist movement was the push from below. women's movement, suffrage. these are things that are great in the america tradition and show us something important which is that people can affect the outcome of national policy. they can become a force for good. and that to me is one of the great things about america. >> no matter the means necessary? >> it depends. no. of course, the means matter. so you're digging into that. >> wherever could i be going? >> where could you be going. no, of course, the means matter. the point is if you look back in history and say who are the people we remember for all the great things we did, even if you

take, say, lyndon johnson, abraham lincoln, lyndon johnson was never part of the black freedom movement. he responded to the black freedom movement on the ground. he never belonged to an abolitionist movement. do i think harriet tubman did good things? i do. was she carrying a pistol in her pocket? she was. did john brown do the right thing by hurling his family against slavery? he did. >> it's interesting you chose two presidents to start off with, commanders in chief, who signed off, built into law and abide by not in all surkss but expected to abide by the rule of law. >> yeah. but both of those presidents were actually responding to movements that didn't always abide by the rule of law. i mean the civilian rights movement, black freedom movement broke the law consistently and that was part of the strength and beauty of it and the black

freedom movement grew and evolved every day. the story we tell today is mostly a myth and mostly not true. but the push for justice, the push for equality, justification was magnificent, that was coming from bolo and much against the law. >> what about the revolution? >> revolution. >> well, we happen to be in a revolutionary nation. the spirit of 1776 was a revolutionary spirit. the founder broke the law themselves, the law of the british crown and established a revolutionary country based upon principles of equality, principles of christianity, and principles of commerce. if you look at them in america, john brown, for example, was powerfully motivated by christianity. the abolitionist movement wouldn't be possible without christianity. martin luther king said he was writing a promissory note.

who wrote it? it wasn't them. it was thomas jefferson. he wrote the charter to have a civil rights movement 200 years later in the first place. radicalism is parasitic upon the principles of 1776. >> what does professor ayerss think of those who call him a terrorist? that answer when we return. okay, movie night.everyone wins. how do i win? because we're streaming the movie that you love. well, how do i win? because we ordered that weird thing that you love from the pizza place. how do you win, dad? because i used the citi thankyou card and got two times the points on alllllll of this. well, and spending time with you guys of course. that was a better answer. the citi thankyou preferred card.

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professor ayers group, the weather underground. this goes back to the means, that you get in your head that america is bad and it needs to be changed and you pursue any means necessary to evoke that change. dinesh equates you to actual terrorists who bombed us on 9/11. >> even in dinesh's response to you he pointed out that the revolution was violent and it was illegal. so you're not always against illegal violence. you're only against it when you think it's against the things you believe in. but the reality is we were never terrorists and dinesh does call our group terrorists and it's not true. even if you take webster's definition, it's force and co-ergs to make your point. we never killed anyone. we did noisy, loud, very open destruction of property at a time when 6,000 people a week were being murdered by our government. 6,000 a week.

>> that's what you're objecting to? >> objecting -- >> we'll get to weather underground in a second. that's what the professor believes. he believed that the ends do justify the means and if you want to change the things about america to which you object and you try through peaceful means yunld do not get anywhere, then what recourse do you have but to push then vel lope and in some circumstances break the law. >> first of all there was a big difference between martin luther king breaking the law and bill ayres breaking the law. martin luther king broke the law nonviolently. he said if i break the law, i should accept the penalty. i shouldn't go into hiding. i should go to prison. so i'm going to call the law into question morally and i'm going to sway the american people because i believe in the goodness of the american people. bill ayres group, it was the spirit of 1968. this was the radical spirit that saw themselves as a force for evil and how bad america was and

went right back into american history and reinterpreted american history as a series of crimes visited upon different -- the native americans, african-americans, the mexicans. so this became a kind of anti-americanism that was fostered in america. it became a part of the schools. >> do you admit that? >> no. >> you don't admit that. >> first of all, both of you saying the ends justifies the means is from mars but when you question it, you're all in. that's a violent end. but on this question of the spirit of '68, went back and re reinterpreted history. you act as if it was some kind of fiction. we did commit genocide against the native american. >> actually we didn't? and we did enslave people for 250 years. and the question, could you be a moral person and own slaves, i

think, is something you dodge. look. what i would say is you need to look at the thing honestly and don't bo so afraid of the fact that we did terrible, terrible things in our history and in order to get right with the world we have to repair those injuries. >> go ahead, dinesh. >> we shouldn't flagellate ourselves over it. >> i don't flagellate at all. i don't believe in flagellation. >> let's look at it this way. the american population shunck in 150 year. the main reason for that was not because of warfare or systematic killing. it's because the white man brought visas and they did not have any immunities and so they perished in large number. the europeans -- one-third of the population had been wiped out earlier by the black plague. where did that come from? >> asia. so diseases go from civilization to civilization. that's not genocide. genocide is when they intend to wipe out the people.

>> they intended to wipe out the people and take land. dhad both. >> do you believe there's any distinction on the left to blame america first? i thought it was interesting in one of your books the question was who do you think are great americans? what do you think is so great about america and you named edward snowden and now chelsea manning, both people you think are traitors. >> some think are traitors. and i named jeremy hammond as well. another whistle blower. what is interested to me hammond was a chicagoan and the judge said you're no ellsberg. daniel ellsberg was no daniel ellsberg beforehand. he was always called tree s ell. should we allow them to close the door and act with impunity? that's what we're doing.

snowden stop thad. >> stand by. we have much, much more with professor air force and dinesh d d'souza. what about those who don't believe in americanism? the pew research center came out with eye-openi ing research on that debate and we talk about that next. turbocharged reward card with a new volkswagen turbo. so why are we so obsessed with turbo? because there's nothing more exhilarating than a powerful ride. and you can get that in places you might not expect. like the passat. and also in the fun-to-drive jetta. in fact, volkswagen has sold more turbos than any other brand over the last ten years. that is a lot of turbo. hurry in and you can get a $1,000 turbocharged reward card when you lease a new 2014 passat s for $219 a month. thank ythank you for defendiyour sacrifice.

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>> there he is. how is it going? this is for you it's been a while.

>> reagan called the soviet union an evil empire. who's the new evil empire? >> you're sitting in it. >> happy fourth of july. that was university of colorado professor ward churchill. pew research released a study showing, quote, solid liberals describe thims as proud to be american compared to 70% who describe themselves as conservatives. back with us now filmmaker dinesh d'souza and professor bill ayers, one of t founders of the radical group weather underground. are you proud to be american? >> i'm not proud to be an american and the reason is because of the damage we do around the world is so serious and so ongoing. so if you look anywhere in the world, look through all of latin

america. they stood up to kind of imperial advances. >> we stood up to some people too. germany. >> i understand. that was us at our9/11 -- >> then why do you go to the bad? why don't you think about the good. >> i do often think about the g i wouldn't call myself an american exceptionalist. i challenge that in anybody. i'm a human being. i believe we should be struggling with the question what does it mean to be human in the 21st century. what is required of us? we are all human. we're 5 -- america is 5% of the world's population. we should think of ourselves as a people among people, not as an exceptional people. as soon as you start saying american exceptionalism, actions done by us versus other people are different depending on -- >> that's an unusual attitude. >> right. >> exceptionalism doesn't mean a different moral standard applies. by and large foreigners who come to america are going all the way

back to toekville, i grew up in different culture. i know america is exceptional. i see things in america that you wouldn't see anywhere else in the world. right now if you took the power that america has of the world's superpower and you gave it to russia or you gave it to china, they would use it far more expansively, more brutally, and more to -- more to gain themselves. america is benign in the way it exercises its power. the american idea of wealth creation is embraced in india, china, all over the world. it's lifting hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. ironically, this american formula that we're moving away from at home under obama is the enthusiastically embraced all aren't world. >> benign in iraq, for example, you say we use our power benevolently in iraq. >> okay. >> those are benign. >> we went into afghanistan because the taliban supplied monkey bars to the guys from 9/11 who attacked us directly. >> why didn't we get the guy

who's attacked us directly instead of overthrowing -- >> because we got kicked out. >> entire history of the last 50 years of american foreign policy is we go in under the guise of being ben environment sent and benign and we go in under the lies of one president after another. and then we get booted out. what do we do? we blame the brown guys. so it'sal maliki. i hope he is ready to see what happened. >> you think we're blaming maliki for the mess in iraq? >> there's no question that united states -- >> is that what you think. >> i think we always blame our clients, that's what i'm saying. >> that's a generalization. do you think we're blaming maliki for the mess in iraq because he's brown? >> i think we blame our clients. i hope maliki read about viet m vietnam. he got a bullet in vietnam because of kennedy. we were perfect. the same is true in -- >> america has made mistakes.

i eye the iraq war and in retrospect the iraq war was a mistake. but there is a difference between making a mistake and doing something that is inherently wicked. anyone else who went into iraq and did this would have reimbursed themselves by taking the iraqi oil. we spent all this money in iraq and then we turn over the keys of the oil to the iraqis. we say it's your oil, use it, sell it, burn it. iraq costs us money. imperialists go to make money. >> no, you're absolutely mistaken. so you're saying the oil is just there and iraq is just using it the way they see fit? shell has nothing to do with it and mobile has nothing to do with it? you're dreaming. >> on the balance has america made money or lost money in iraq? >> on balance, the people in halliburton made gazillions of money. >> that is not responsive. america. >> america on balance lost and that's -- >> let me ask you this, at the end of the cold war, all of eastern europe is free. russia no longer has a communist

government. are all those countries better off or worse off because we won the cold war? >> i don't think we won the cold war. i think you're dreaming about that. >> was it a good thing? >> well, i think the end of the authoritarian government is always a good thing. but i also think that this notion that somehow we go out in our benevolent and spend a trillion dollars a year on military budget and have 150 million bases circling the globe, those are not for benevolent purposes. those are for imperial purposes. >> we'll have more after the break. thank you both for being part of the debate. our final thoughts on america and her future next. (vo) after 50 years of designing

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file" earlier this week. if you missed it go, to facebook.co facebook.com/thekellyfile. we want to leave you with something special. thanks for watching, everyone. i'm megan kelly. this is the kelly file. ♪ ♪ o, say can you see by the dawn's early light ♪ ♪ what so proudly we hail

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♪ o'er the land -- of the free you're the home of the brave ♪ welcome to "hannity." here we are in west monroe, louisiana. he see duck commander. it's the number one hit cable show in the entire country. 15 million viewers on any given week and we're going to check in with the robertson family. today we check in with willy and maybe even uncle sy and maybe we'll play basketball, we might go fishing, we may have lunch together. we may play golf. you never know. this special edition of "hannity" straight ahead. >> if you not heard of "duck dynasty," you must be living in the woods somewhere. it just launched the sixth season and it's been broking viewership records from the very