tv Justice With Judge Jeanine FOX News August 24, 2014 1:00am-2:01am PDT
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audience. i know they're going to enjoy them. that's it for now. this is mike huckabee from new york. good night and god bless. stay tuned for "justice with nenenenenenenenenenenenenenenen" >> hello. welcome to "justice." i'm justice jeannine pirro. a 24-year-old british national is the leading suspect in the barbaric beheading of american journalist james foley. more on this coming up, but first my open. this is the last straw. president obama's response in both words and actions to the beheading of american james foley was so weak, wimpy and pathetic that it's embarrassing. in times like these, great leaders understand both the enormity and the urgency of the
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situation. they take the reins and they lead. not our president. he channels teddy roosevelt. but instead of speak softly and carry a big stick, it's speak softly and carry a big bertha. but oh, he talks a big game. >> we will be vigilant and we will be relentless. when people harm americans anywhere, we do what's necessary to see that justice is done. >> relentless? for at least eight minutes until you get back to the golf course on your three-week vacation. mr. president, where is your humanity? this innocent man and his family deserve better. british prime minister cameron at the sound of the killer's british accent immediately let his vacation and flew home to
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get back to work. americans are justifiably outraged and wonder if you are disengaged, tired, overworked, bored, or just clueless. but then again, at this point, what difference does it make? what difference do you make? what difference can you make? there are no words to describe the horror, the savagery, the beheading of james foley. to describe the agony of his mom and dad and for two years while isis held him hostage, fought to bring him home. we're the greatest country on earth. we're americans, they'll bring him home. yes, hope does spring eternal. but there are no words to describe the disappointment when nations far less powerful bring their hostages home while the greatest most powerful nation on earth does not.
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and there are no words to describe the anxiety, the panic, the loss of hope, desperation, the moment isis e-mailed how and when their son will die. no words to describe the finality, the animal hooded in black in the process of decapitating and american forced to his knees, his hands bound, his head pulled back. and you, mr. president, fist bump your friends within minutes on the golf course? you are so weak. then when criticized that you hadn't done enough, you spill your guts. and then blame the intelligence community again. we tried to get him, but it didn't work. excuse me? isn't that classified information? haven't you indicted people for less under the espionage act? you not only burnt our sources,
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you put the other american hostages in even more danger. and what's that? you don't pay ransoms? you don't negotiate with terrorists? well, what the hell was the bergdahl trade? aside from replenishing the enemy in a time of war. you violated not one, but two laws. if you don't negotiate with terrorists, what was john kerry doing with hamas? and why were you negotiating with iran on its nuclear proliferation? not only are the american people justifiably outraged, but even your own pentagon disagrees with you. they at least understand the enormity of what's at stake. hagel seems damn scared. >> they're beyond just a terrorist group. they are tremendously well funded. this is beyond anything that we've seen. >> dempsey gets it. >> this is an organization that
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has an apocalyptic end of days strategic vision, which will eventually have to be defeated. >> but you're not going to act without your favorite line, the international community, standing alongside us. mr. president, why do we need someone to stand alongside us? i didn't see anyone standing along side james foley. he was alone in that desert. his blood staining the sand. he was an american, our son. and you played golf. but hey, good news. you put eric holder in charge. really? you want to prosecute these guys? mr. president, you don't have a clue. this is an act of war. these are crimes against humanity. why not just admit it. you don't want the job. you want the perks, the vacations, the golf. you don't want the
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responsibility. you can't make a decision. you live in a make-believe world, colored with vanishing red lines. well, that just doesn't cut it for us anymore. stop being a spectator and start being a leader. what are you waiting for? what is your goal? >> people like this ultimately fail. >> wishing and hoping doesn't cut it. hitler failed, but only after he killed 6 million people. if you do not have as your goal the destruction of isis, if you do not have the determination, the desire, and the stamina, then you need to leave. and i'm not talking about vacation. you need to leave the white house, remove yourself from the most powerful position on earth. you are putting americans on the wrong side of history. risking everything we worked for. but if you decide to stay, take
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a listen to what a real leader sounds like. >> i have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears, and flesh. you asked what is our policy -- to wage war against a monstrous tyranny in the lamentable catalog of human crime. our aim -- victory. victory in spite of all terror. victory ovthough long and hard e road may be. >> and that's my open. with me now, former u.s. ambassador to the u.n. and fox news contributor john bolton. all right although fox hasn't confirmed this, british intelligence has identified the terrorist who killed james foley but they have not named him
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publicly. your reaction? >> i think that's one of the reasons that british prime minister cameron returned from his vacation. i think british intelligence probably had some idea fairly quickly of the identity because these people were tracked while they were in england. and i think they're concerned there might be co-conspirators in london that they want to try to roll them up as well. so i suspect there's a lot going on behind the scenes. and that really underlines why isis constitutes such a threat. that it's present in western europe, perhaps present in the united states. we know already there are hundreds, maybe thousands of isis fighters in iraq and syria right now who hold valid european or american passports. so i think the identification of the killer is an important first step, not only for bringing justice to these people but for helping to reveal the breadth, the depth, the extent of the threat. to us right now that isis
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represents. >> you know, ambassador, i mean, you talk about the fact that a lot of them hold valid passports and they don't need visas and they can come into the united states no questions asked. they don't even need a passport. they can come to the southern border as we well know. my concern right now is that the president is clueless. and i think that you said that you don't think he understands the full nature of isis. why do you say that? >> well, i go beyond that really. although i don't think he does. i don't think the president cares about american national security. i've been saying this for almost six years. i just don't think it's a priority for him. unlike every other american president, at least since franklin roosevelt, it's not what gets him up in the morning. his first thought is not what threats does the united states face today? he's much more concerned with reordering our country domestically. so he looks at this act -- >> but he's not doing a good job of that either, ambassador. >> well, that depends on how you look at it. he says his aim w
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fundamentally transform america, and i'm worried that he may be succeeding. but the point is he's just not concerned with threats to the united states. it's part ideology, because he thinks we're too powerful as it is. and his part, as you rightly said, he loves in a dream world. he has no concept of how international affairs works, or the kinds of threats we face from evil people like those in isis. >> and you know, i mean, even a statement itself like oh, these people fail in the end, you know, talk about hope and change. that's wishing and hoping. and the optics of his playing golf, i mean, people are outraged. people are fuming about that. does he have no sense of humanity? >> well, i think he's so -- he's living in his own world. he thinks that his mere existence as president will be enough to guarantee his place in history. and in a certain sense he's right. but, you know, i don't think it's so much the golf that
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bothers people. if he were staying up late into the night poring over soybean subsidies, working as hard he could, that wouldn't change people's view. the problem is they just don't think he's doing what we principally send presidents to washington to do, which is protect the country. and i think that's going to -- i think that's why we need other political leaders to raise this issue and to say look, it's only 13 years after 9/11. have we forgotten already? i think the president has, but i don't think the american people have. i think it's time for a debate on this issue. >> well, and, you know, when you listen to it and, you know, people like winston churchill and franklin delano roosevelt. i mean, churchill was so humble. the humility comes through when he talks about it. and roosevelt as well. i mean, they understood the enormity of what they were facing. the risk to our survival. these people want to wipe us off the face of the earth. i mean, and, you know, as an
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american, should i feel that my government is doing everything it can to protect me? >> it's not, clearly it's not. and the press conference that you broadcast the excerpt from of hagel and dempsey, although the pentagon rolled it back a little bit the next day, i'm sure under white house pressure. what that showed is that they understand full well over there, because of the intelligence and other information they have, what a threat isis amounts to. and why it's so important, if we're going to do anything about it to act quickly. in contrast to the president who doesn't see it as a threat. chamber len once described czechoslovakia as a faraway country with people about whom we know little. and that brought us to munich. i think the president feels the same way about isis in iraq. they're a long way away. no threat to the united states. >> what a shame. ambassador john bolton, thank you. >> thank you. coming up, the obama administration discusses a failed secret mission. does this put even more american
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with me now, fox news military analyst, major general bob scales, and retired navy s.e.a.l., christopher heedman. general, i'm going to go to you first. operations like these are incredibly sensitive even after they've end mpd to political decisions trump military ones in this administration? >> i don't think there's any question, judge. remember now, it's about an order of magnitude harder to save someone than it is to kill them. these types of operations quite often fail, simply because of the failure of intelligence and
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a failure of surprise. and when you announce essentially sources and methods and the details of an operation, you put future operations in jeopardy. now, if there were no other americans held captive, if this was end of mission for our special operating forces, okay. but wait a minute, we have at least three, maybe as many as eight americans still being held captive who can't be ransomed, who are waiting for somebody in our special operating community to rescue them. so to give away the farm this early, what it means is not only a danger for our operators, but also a danger for the hostages. remember, all the bad guys have to do when they get wind of something like that is shoot the hostage and the mission is over. so something like this, at least to my special operations friends is absolutely unconscionableunc. >> what's your take on this?
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>> judge, it is sacrosanct. you never advertise a failure. you never announce a mission, period. speed and surprise are the hallmarks of a command. when you announce that you did something that tells them you're going to continue to do things. it doesn't do anything to benefit you it. just tips them off and you lose surprise. >> and you look weak, right, chris? you look damn weak. then he blames the intelligence community. always blaming the intelligence community. >> there's no advantage to letting people know that you failed on a mission. none whatsoever. >> okay, general, what do you think of thf idea? he's always blaming intelligence. nothing is his fault. i'm surprised he didn't blame george bush. >> well, here's the thing. if you're planning to kill somebody, like osama bin laden, you've got months to make
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decisions, to collect intelligence, to have seminars in the white house, and all the things we did in that successful operation. but when you're trying to rescue somebody, the intelligence picture is entirely different. you have what we call rolling intelligence, where these operators are getting eyes on targeting and information literally as they're flying to the objective. so anything that impedes your ability for first person eyes on, immediate intelligence, not only impedes the mission, but also puts the lives of these special operators in danger. >> chris, listen, you're on a mission, you're listening, what are you listening to in your ear. >> you geerting intelligence data nonstop. it's up to the second. it's constantly coming into your ear. you're getting updates from the pilot. the pilots are passing it to your commanders. they're giving it to you in a more simmered down version. but it's nonstop. and to have any kind of break or
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disruption in that during mission, before mission, is -- it's just unheard of. it's not going to contribute to any kind of mission success at all. >> all right, general, last question pl hagel sounds scared to death, i've got to tell you. and dempsey said we've never been in more danger. are they fighting with obama saying let's get your butt in there and let's get moving? >> i've known marty dempster for 15 years. marty dempsey is sending a signal, not only to the american military, but to the american people that this is going to be hard. it's going to last for years. and that the mission is something that has to be accomplished. you don't negotiate with these guys. you kill them. >> got to go. i agree. do you agree? >> 100%. you kill them all. >> i agree. you bound them. coming up, we know isis wants to kill americans. the secret service admits they're aware of an
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>> grewing outrage and shock over the killing of james foley. they cut off his head and then put it on youtube for the world to see. are we facing another 9/11 by these savages. with me now, a terrorist analyst. americans see this barbaric video and they're horrifiehorri. is isis already here? i spoke with members of the department of homeland security and they're monitoring some people who they believe are members of isis. we are also concerned that a lot of members are come through the mexican border. we believe at this point that isis is so sophisticated in their planning that we are now
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playing catch up them. they are way ahead of us and we believe they already have implants in the united states. >> and what's amazing about this is that we hear about so many of them being recruited from western europe and now there are reports of a 24-year-old is the leading suspect, the british national in the beheading of james foley. so what is the attraction for these people? >> they are attracted to the structure of islam. they are attracted to some spiritual guidance that tells them exactly how to li their lives. in the western world, a lot of people have moved away from religion. a lot of people have lost that structure of someone telling them, giving them how to live their lives day by day. islam give themselves that. it tells you how many times to pray a day. it tells you how to wash your hands before meals. >> but does it tell you -- i'm sorry for interrupting. but does it tell you how to behead someone? who does that? >> yes, it does tell you how to
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behead someone. the koran is very clear. and when we see converts converting to islam, they are usually more devout that muslims born into the islamic faith. and when they start really immersing themselves in the koran and start tweeting koran 8:12 about striking terror in the hearts of the disbelievers, strike their heads because they disobeyed allah. they take verses like that and execute them. and that's why they are the most radicalized in the jihadist world. >> but these guys held foley for two years. isis held him for two years. why now? why two years? can you fathom what's going on? >> well, terrorists have figured out how to raise a lot of money, a ton of money. kidnapping is the high estrogen ray tor for terrorist organizations worldwide. and when isis held foley, they
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were hoping and they were kidnapping americans hoping to raise a lot of money because it surpasses bank robbery. it surpasses fundraising from private donors. and it surpasses all forms of fundraising. it has been generating about $125 million a year to terrorist organizations. kidnapping alone for the last five years. so it works. so they kidnapped a lot of americans hoping to raise a lot of money. >> and you know, $500 million from that bank in iraq, how does the united states counter these people? >> and see, now because they have their hands on all the money in iraq, they can start executing people because now they are sending a message. they have the money, they captured the territory with the oil that's bringing them money, and so they no longer need to depend on those small kidnapping. and that's why it's very difficult for the united states. the way we need to defeat them is act with force, unbelievable force. and we need to form a coalition,
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especially from islamic countries and the islamic world, like turkey, egypt, pakistan. they have huge armies, organized armies. and they can do something to take back and fight isis. way we're going to this point be able to defeat isis. >> always good to talk to you. >> thank you. >> all right, coming up, we're life on the scene in ferguson, missouri. marianna rafferty.
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now back to "justice with judge jeannine." a grand jury now em panelled to hear evidence and weigh possible chaj against a ferguson police officer who shot 18-year-old michael brown. mike tobin is in ferguson with the latest. how have things gone today? >> well, it was pretty hot throughout the day so that kept streets pretty empty. but now the sun is down and a big pack of protesters marching by us. there was a march earlier in the day that was pretty interesting. it had about 200 people and it was the naacp youth march. so you had a lot of young people
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out there, but carrying the naacp banner were the heads of the different police agencies. you had captain ron johnson who's become so well known throughout this process. also the chief of st. louis city police, chief of county police, making it very clear they're making an effort to reach out into this black community, that felt so disgruntled throughout this process that, in fact, the chief of the st. louis county police told me they're remisdoing throughout the process and the process showed them, they didn't have a good enough outreach or a good enough communication with this community. >> the supporters are growing in numbers. what does that tell you. have the dynamics there changed or is there still the outrage. >> i don't think the dynamic has called you later. it's just they're coming out in public.
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that officer wilson demonstration inform south st. louis had to move inside. as soon as it became known that they were there and demonstrating, you had people from the mike brown side for lack of a better term who showed up on the street. and that turned into a raucous demonstration and the people who were demonstrating on behalf of officer wilson, they didn't want to have a confrontation. >> thanks for being with us. >> michael brown the day he was killed and his cog league, attorney james williams. good evening, gentlemen. freeman, i'm going to go to you. last week i asked if your client said whether michael was shot in the chest or back. your answer was your client told you that michael was shot in the back and that your client actually saw the officer fire at michael when he had his hands up.
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so are you still saying the same thing? >> we're still saying the same thing and the autopsy confirms the same thing. it basically states there were six shots fired. one of them who did hit mike in the arm. not quite sure whether it was from the back or from the front. that's consistent with what my client said. he said mike was shot in the back but it shows that he was shot in the arm. >> i've just got to interrupt. what michael said was there were six shots all from the front. if indeed that is the case, and they can certainly tell the difference between an entrance and an exit, then, you know, there's a lot of misinformation that was put out there that might have fired up people for no reason. >> yeah, it's misinformation, judge, and you shouldn't be running with that because if you take another look at the autopsy -- >> shouldn't be running with it?
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that's the medical -- >> let me finish. we're waiting from the medical examiner but the autopsy report says that one of those shots in the arm could have been from the back. and that's consistent with what my client said. >> okay, well, that's not the information that we have. and he will be on the show later tonight in case you want to watch that. >> it's said that the officer reached for michael brown while he was sitting in the car and yanked him towards the car. do you remember darian johnson saying that? >> no, i don't remember darian johnson saying that or darren wilson saying that. what we remember is somebody who talked to darren wilson said that. we haven't heard a word from mr. wilson. >> now my understanding is that you said on this show last week he attempted to get out of the car but he couldn't open the door, and you're talking about
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the police officer. he reaches out and grabbed mike brown by the throat and mike is somewhat of a big guy. the officer, according to my client, was having a difficult time and he continued to grab him. you said that on this show. you can't deny that. >> that is correct, yeah. when did you think i denied it. how is that inconsistent with anything we've discussed. >> okay, what i asked you was if your client told you if michael brown was grabbed by the police officer as the police officer sat in the car. is that correct? >> yeah, we said that. i agreed to that, yes. >> and obviously i just read it. but what is your take on this now? your take is now that it's possible that your client was shot, or your client's friend, michael brown was shot in the back? >> we spent three hours with him yesterday. the day before talking about this.
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i'm going to let mr. williams answer that question. >> all right, quickly. >> there's been a lot of misinformation. there's been a lot of attempts to distract from the truth. the truth here is that these two unarmed young men were running down the street away from a police officer when he chased them and gunned them down. he didn't try to apprehend them without using deadly force. they were doing nothing other than walking in the middle of the street. all the distraction about whether he was shot in the back or the back of the arm is of no moment. >> i'm a former da, i can tell you -- we can disagree about that. >> i can disagree, too. but here's the important information. >> i'm asking the questions here. >> and that is -- >> if you don't want to listen to the questions, then there's no point in continuing with this conversation. thank you very much. >> my last name is williams, thank you. >> all right, joining me now from ferguson, missouri state senator laura shapelle.
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i believe you said this yesterday that you want a conviction. people want a conviction. and you just heard me and the attorneys there. not everyone agrees on the facts. so to say that if we don't get a conviction, the city is going to go up in flames again, or everybody is going to protest again, is that fair? >> you know, i have seen some reports about what you are saying. and let me just clarify what i mean. i've been with my constituents, people protesting at lunch yesterday and other avenues and other areas. my constituents have a fear that they are going to be victims again of a lot of violence. we don't want that, we don't condone that whatsoever. but there's a lot of emotion going on in this community, and they feel as though if they don't get justice that everything will just erupt. now, do we want violence to happen? absolutely not. are we the people protesters going to take part in that? absolutely not.
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but we fear for the folks who have been intimidated and harassed time and time again by police in authority. those figures may go forward. >> i understand. you think it may happen. senator, i want to ask you this. if the truth is -- and there are reports -- again, we don't know for sure, that the officer suffered a fractured eye socket, the orbital area, do you agree that the law allows a police officer or anyone who's in reasonable fear of grave bodily injury, as they see it, that the law allows him or her to react with deadly physical force? >> here's what i look at. i'm not the attorney. you know the law. >> but you're a logt tor. >> i am, and here's what i'm going to say. if you do feel that you are in harm, you do have a right to protect yourself. but what we have to look at, does that mean that you shoot six times from 35 feet away because someone socked you in the eye? is it equal?
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that's the question that jurors will have to contemplate and the grand jury. >> when you say 35 feet. i mean, you know there's system that differs that it was much closer than that. that there was a bum rush in the car and then a second time. but let's assume that we div on that, senator. because your constituents mistrust him, you should take yourself off the case? >> the law says that only he can recuse himself or that the governor, because of the state of emergency might be able to. does this mean every time there's a problem we should have a vote as to whether or not we like the guy in charge? isn't he elected just like you? >> you know what, here's the irony of the entire thing, the governor knows exactly what he's doing. and he only cares about his political future. now bob mccullough is in a very sticky situation. he has a bias. a lot of people think my
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constituents think he wants to be off the case. but what he has to do in order to recuse himself is go to a judge and say hey, i want to recuse himself. so what is he going to say? is he going to say i'm going to recuse myself because i have a bias for officers because they are a part of my family. if he does that, that means every single case prior to this case will be in question. and the governor knows that. so the governor is putting bob mccullough in a very sticky situation. and a compromised situation, only for his political future. >> we're going to wrap up here quickly. my understanding of mccullough is he's a pretty well respected guy, a former national da's association head. but you know, final question, an unarmed 20-year-old white was shot this week. unarmed. killed by a black police officer in utah. why don't we even hear about that? >> that's a good question. today when i was protesting, a lot of my colleagues as well as
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my constituents, there is a caucasian man who is one of my constituents. and he said i've been beaten by police before. and he said the same thing. what his issue is that he felt as though he should not have been beaten by a police officer. so yes, we don't even hear a lot about black on black crime. we don't hear about this situation. there is a discrepancy. '. >> thank you so much for being with us tonight. >> thank you. all right, coming up, a world renowned
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the michael brown shooting investigation under way forensics will speak volumes. with me now, forensic pathologist, dr. michael botten who performed an autopsy on michael brown. six bullets. we've got a screen here. let's pull it up. there's controversy as to what really happened. it's been reported he was shot four times in his right arm, twice in the head, one in the right eye, all bullets struck from the front. is that correct? >> that's correct. he's in the anatomic position in the autopsy. >> all right, there's also been a report by brown, the guy that brown was with, and he says that the officer is sitting inside his car and that michael brown was right next to the car.
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and we know that michael brown is almost 300 pounds, 6'4", 6'5". >> yes. >> and the officer is a lot smaller, five-foot-something. >> right, he's smaller. >> and thinner. >> they say the officer sitting in the car who couldn't get out of the car reaches out and grabs a 6'5" guy by the arm and pulls him down into the car. does that sound possible? >> well, that would be very difficult unless he grabbed on to some clothing or something. >> but they say he grabbed around his neck. >> well, we didn't see at the autopsy any neck injuries on brown. >> so you didn't see any neck injuries? >> right, we look for that. >> but physically in terms of that statement, or that allegation, does that make sense? >> it would be difficult for the patrolman to grab around the neck while seated in the car, yes. >> all right, i'm now going to ask you another question.
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apparently police officer wilson had a busted orbital socket. that's what we think, although we're not sure. >> i'm concerned about leaks coming in. when he's walking around the body after, he doesn't look like he has a severe injury. he's on some tapes. i think we have to wait until information is released -- >> of course. we have to know the facts. but as it relates to you and your expertise, you did the autopsy. did you find any injuries on the hands of the decedent, michael brown? >> we did not find any injuries on his hands. >> which if there were an injury by michael brown to the orbital socket to the police officer, you would have expected to see something? >> well, often we would see injuries to the hand. but not always. punches can be delivered without injuries to the hand, too. >> yeah, but that's -- if -- and again, we don't know, if the orbital socket, if the brown is broken -- >> that's right. that's leakage. and there's no official report
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to support that as yet. these reports will come out i sume as the grand jury winds down. >> okay. and finally, if you've got this police officer who, if he did have an injury, would he be able to actually get out of the car and actually shoot and be accurate if he had that injury? does that affect his eyesight? >> if he had the kind of injury that has been rumored with damage to the eye socket that could affect his vision, sure. and could affect his shooting ability. >> damage, you have been involved in a lot of cases, a lot of very famous cases. is it difficult for you to make these calls? >> the science is the science, the autopsy is the autopsy. how it is interpreted depends on a lot of other things including the eyewitness reports and the
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last week in my opening i criticized the indictment of governor rick perry for threatening to veto funding for the drunk driving district attorney who refused to resign. kent says this dumb tactic by the democrats will only help perry. maureen says this indictment will be thrown out. what a waste of taxpayers dollars. kevin says bottom line, obama and the democrats are trying to stop rick perry for him standing up and defending the border of
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texass from illegals. cecilia says it's political. the administration is trying to get rid of perry just like christie. i bet that drunk finds a way to a position in the obama administration. tom says we know why this is going on just like the other scandals that obama claims he knew about until he read in the media. eileen says -- did i read that right? eileen says you don't want to mess with this texan. and the d.a. wouldn't resign and now i have more respect for him. and now the results of the poll. we asked what should america do about other u.s. hostages held by isis. we got a record number of responses. ginny says send in the seal teams and bomb thing, bomb them, bomb them again until isis is destroyed.
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mark says, bomb them back to the stone age and dennis says make landing in iraq look like the invasion of normandy 2014 still. shawn says for starters stop arming them. and jimmy says as you said a month ago i'm glad my viewers listen. as you said a month ago, bomb them, bomb them, and bomb them again. and michael says i'm sick of obama wanting to negotiate with hamas. if we negotiated with terrorists in world war ii, america would be owned by germany. and andy says don't talk about our failures when trying to rescuing them. obama should be prosecuted for harming americans. and before you go, you've seen images all week of violence and unrest in ferguson. but i wanted to show you something different. here is chris rock at a yankees game this week giving a foul
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with all of you. the conversation can continue. huckabee starts now. tonight on huckabee. >> get ready. >> america's biggest terrorist threat ever. úisil is sophisticated and well funded as any group we have seen. this is beyond anything we have seen. >> taking the fight to isis. can the terror group be defeated? >>18e] and the entire world is appalled by the brutal murder of jim foley by terrorist group isil. >> on how the president should have acted. and the national outcry. and sense of trust. >> and the evens
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