that's a good one. very good. all right. that's it for us. don't forget to catch our labor day special monday 5:00 p.m. it's a scream. have a great holiday weekend. good evening and welcome to a special "the kelly file" investigation. justice for all in ferguson. i'm megyn kelly. just before noon on saturday august 9th a series of events unfolded in the town of ferguson, missouri, that would push the st. louis suburb into the national spotlight and reignite a fierce national debate on race, police and the use of deadly force. officer darren wilson had an encounter with 18-year-old michael brown, and a second young man. by the end mike brown was shot dead in the streets in what some call a murder and wilson calls self-defense. in the weeks that followed the story exploded into an ugly spectacle of looting and riots

with occasional political opportunism and definite media excess. the fbi, the doj, missouri governor, the u.s. attorney general, even the president of the united states has all weighed in repeatedly as the national chorus has demanded justice for michael brown. but has all the fury overwhelmed the facts? isn't justice supposed to be blind and for all? tonight we investigate the facts thus far, what the witnesses say, what the autopsy shows and what the law allows. with us tonight homicide detective mark furhman, michael brown's family attorney, darryl parks, former police officer and lawyer judge alex. forensic pathologist dr. michael baden who performed an autopsy on mr. brown. jay christian adams and attorneys mike ieglarsh.

we begin at 11:50 a.m. on a street in ferguson. and trace gallagher has the story. >> megyn, we still haven't heard police officer darren wilson's version of events. and the st. louis county prosecutor says we won't until this case goes to trial. so we are left to tell the story using what sources close to the ferguson police have told us along with eyewitness accounts, including the man who was with michael brown when they were confronted by officer wilson. 21-year-old dorian johnson claims he and brown were walking in the street when officer wilson told them to get the blank on the sidewalk. and that the officer pulled up so close to them that when he tried to open his door it hit michael brown, ricochetted and pushed the officer back inside his patrol car. listen. >> he just reached his hand out the window and grabbed my friend around his neck and was trying to -- as he was trying to choke my friend. and he was trying to get away and the officer then reached out and he grabbed his arm to pull

him into the car. >> but a woman who said her name was josie claiming to be a friend of officer wilson called into the dana lash radio show and said the confrontation began when michael brown went after the officer. play this. >> and as he stands up michael just bum rushes, him, shoves him back into his car, punches him in the face. and of course darren grabs for his gun. michael grabs the gun. at one point he's got the gun totally turned against his hip. and darren shoves it away. and the gun goes off. >> that version of events was supported by a fox news source close to the ferguson police department who told us that when brown punched officer wilson he fractured his eye socket swelling the left side of his face. the source went onto say that there is strong evidence that michael brown did touch officer wilson's gun. dorian johnson claims that after the gunfired michael brown tried to run away but the officer chased him and shot him from

behind. >> as my friend felt that shot, he turned around and put his hands in the air and he started to get down. but the officer still approached with his weapon drawn and he fired several more shots. >> a female witness backed up that story saying this, listen. >> he put his arms up to let them know he was compliant and that he was unarmed. and they shot him twice more and he fell to the ground and died. >> but our source maintains that michael brown did not stop and put his hands up. instead he said, what, are you going to shoot me, and then started going toward wilson. and witnesses captured on cell phone video seem to support that version. listen. >> somebody help him! why isn't somebody helping him!

>> the final tale is told by the private autopsy which shows michael brown was shot six times including a fatal shot to the head. but it also appears brown was not shot from behind though forensic pathologist michael baden says he cannot rule out that brown was shot while running away. megyn. >> trace, good job. thank you. joining us now former l.a.p.d. homicide detective and fox news contributor mark furhman. we begin with detective furhman. you can hear the diametrically opposed versions of what happened in this case, in particular the testimony of the friend, dorian jones i think is his last name. who specifically says he grabbed michael brown, the officer did, around the neck, battled with him in the police car and ultimately when the fatal shots were fired michael brown had his hands in the air. >> well, megyn, let's start

with -- i mean, you can look at this with some professional common sense. the officer -- it might be quite impossible for the officer to still be in the vehicle and reach up to a 6'4" man and grasp him around the neck. so that seems to be easily questioned. the second thing is is what tactic would the police use to pull a suspect into the front seat of the car with them being down and start an altercation? it's really kind of a stupid assertion. so we have to assume something else occurred. if the officer's attempting to get out of the vehicle, it is clear that michael brown was the aggressor. the officer is pushed back into the vehicle. they fight over his gun. he's punched. the gun goes off. the suspect then breaks off at that point and now officer wilson collects himself, gets out of the vehicle and tries to make an arrest. and these are the areas that

come into question. but when witnesses say that michael brown was shot in the back when clearly six rounds hit in the front of michael brown, when they say his hands were up and the medical evidence clearly does not show that, you can argue it until you're blue in the face. but the medical evidence doesn't support either one of those witness testimonies. >> i want to correct myself dorian johnson. but here's the thing, mark. it seems like everyone agrees that after that confrontation at the car, whatever happened, whoever started it and both sides seem to agree there was a scuffle that may have involved the officer's gun. michael brown ran away. he ran away. and that is what has a lot of people saying why did he have to fire his gun? why is he shooting at somebody who he may be ticked off at, he may have just committed a crime by having that fight with an officer, but he was running away. >> well, let's look at that.

first, he just committed a robbery. he knows he committed a robbery. the officer there is indications he heard the broadcast when he was making the contact with johnson and brown. so the officer is by himself in uniform, one-man car. he calls for backup. so he clearly says to himself i've got a tactical situation and it'syou have two suspects t not been searched. so nobody knows if they're armed with a gun or knife or any other weapon. nobody knows that. the officer now is involved in a life and death struggle in the front seat of his police car. the suspect is trying to disarm him. and to an officer that can only mean one thing, to kill him. that suspect was not described as running away. he was walking away while he was taunting the officer when he got out and commanded him to stop or freeze. when that suspect now comes back

at the officer, that suspect has not been searched, the officer knows he has already committed a robbery, an assault on an officer, quite possibly an attempted murder. and now he's coming back. and the officer's fear of great bodily injury being out of the vehicle and trying to confront a man twice his size, that's a real fear. and he knows that the suspect not only intended once but might intend to do the same thing again. >> all right. mark furhman, thank you. so there you have it. that is how the case may play out when officer darren wilson gets his say and offers his side. but as you know, there are two sides to this story. and what happened that day in ferguson, missouri, as of right now is far from clear. up next, attorney darryl park wills share his side of the case according to the eyewitness testimonials. and later we will look at what the law says about when an officer can use deadly force and when he cannot. guess what? running away does not answer the

question one way or the other. plus, when dr. michael baden released his autopsy findings, michael brown supporters said dr. baden has just proven their case. but that is not what dr. baden says. he's with us tonight just ahead. >> let's just be perfectly clear. is it possible based on the autopsy you performed that michael brown was in the process of attacking this police officer when he was shot? >> based on the autopsy finding that's possible. >> and it's also possible that he was surrendering with his hands up? so what we're looking for is a way to "plus" our accounting firm's mobile plan. and "minus" our expenses. perfect timing. we're offering our best-ever pricing on mobile plans for business. run the numbers on that. well, unlimited talk and text, and ten gigs of data for the five of you would be... one-seventy-five a month. good calculating kyle. good job kyle. you just made partner. our best-ever pricing on mobile share value plans for business. now with a $100 bill credit for every business line you add.

press your tonguenture, against it like this. it moves unlike natural teeth. do you feel it? it can happen with every denture. introducing new fixodent plus true feel. it helps keep dentures firmly in place. with a smooth formula, free of flavors and colorants. so you get a closer feeling to natural teeth.

new fixodent plus true feel. fixodent. and forget it. have any weapons drawn at him or anything like that. i was going for no weapon. his weapon was already drawn when he got out the car. he shot again. and as my friend felt that shot he turned around and he put his hands in the air and he started to get down, but the officer still approached with his weapon drawn. and he fired several more shots. and my friend died. >> that was dorian johnson, the man who was with 18-year-old mike brown when brown was shot by officer wilson. in the weeks since this shooting we've heard several things repeatedly, one, brown was unarmed. true. true, he was shot six times. three that it happened in broad daylight, all true. but the police officers we've heard from say none of that necessarily matters. they explain unarmed people assault police officers all the time, sometimes with deadly

results. they point out we don't know the circumstances surrounding how those shots were fired, why they were fired, nor do we know for sure what brown was doing at the time. joining us now darryl parks, attorney for the brown family. and dorian johnson tells a compelling narrative. this officer will go to jail for murder if the jury believes him. but he is friends with michael brown, he had just partaken in a robbery with michael brown of cigars. and he has an outstanding warrant for an arrest on a misdemeanor charge. will the jury look at him as a truth teller? >> they don't have to rely upon him. they have three other witnesses who also says something similar to what he says about what happened that day. and i think it's important because there are very important points within what they all say that a very clear and very apparent. >> three witnesses who do not know each other and have no connection to one another.

>> none whatsoever. they tell their own version in their own way. and i think that once a jury -- hopefully we'll have a jury trial in the situation. and i think jury trials are important because they get to weigh all the testimony unlike a grand jury. that's why it's important we have a direct file or indictment by the grand jury so we can have a public trial so that we all can see the evidence. >> but this audience should know the grand jury is stacked against the defendant. even a ham sandwich can be indicted. it's very easy typically to get an indictment. >> we hope the prosecutor shows all the evidence in this case. the problem with the grand jury that it's done in secrecy and we don't know what part of the evidence will be presented. >> i know. but they're already suggesting they're going to release that. the point is it is weighed in favor of the perceived victim in the case which in this case right now is michael brown. keep going with your point because the witnesses didn't know each other. at least two of them are saying he had his hands up when he was shot by this officer. and yet there's another witness who says the hands were down. and then i want you to speak to this witness we played in the trace report who you can't see

him on camera but he's caught videotaping it and given his own testimonial about what happened. listen to it. >> the police shot him. the next thing i know i'm thinking -- the dude started running -- >> the dude started running towards the police, he kept coming toward them. that's not going to be particularly helpful for those who want to see the officer indicted. >> well, it makes sense in this regard. what they clearly say is as he's running he apparently is hit by a bullet. obviously he's hit. next he turns around. and as he turns around he has his hands up, he probably was hit by more bullets during that time and started going down. obviously if he was surrendering to the officer, he doesn't keep walking away. he walks toward the officer and surrender. that's what they saw. >> i don't know about that. that's where the case gets tripped up.

if somebody's shooting at you and you're shot already, who in their right mind starts walking to the cop? you stand where you are, you get down. >> he's telling him to stop shooting. dorian said, hey, stop shooting, i'm not armed. >> this is where the case gets problematic. in my view it's going to what happened at the second location. they had a scuffle at the car and the evidence will come out about who started it and what happened. but at this point you can make a strong argument the officer should not have been firing at him. but he turns around -- if he starts charging at the cop. because self-defense can sort of appear, disappear and reappear in a case. if this guy's now charging at the cop as the last witness says, that is very helpful for officer wilson's defense. >> i think maybe he started coming toward the officer in an attempt to surrender. none of -- the only person who talks about an alleged charge. maybe he just had a misuse of words. >> we have yet to hear from the cop. >> as you take all of the testimony from all of them in the totality is rather clear

that he had been hit. he was trying to surrender and that he was going down. yet the officer kept shooting at him. i think the problem is the strongest evidence in this case i believe is once it's revealed how the bullets entered his head and where the officer had to have been standing, it's going to be rather clear to everyone that this officer did not have to shoot this kid the way he did. >> you've teed up my next guest perfectly because dr. michael baden will be here with us and we'll ask him what he says about the forensics. great to see you. thank you, sir. so what does the law say? what does officer wilson have to prove or does he have to prove anything about why he used his gun and how many times he shot mike brown? we'll take a look at that just ahead. plus, bob mcculloch, a man re-elected four times by the people for the people of st. louis county. why are protesters demanding his removal? does that matter? we'll ask the judge about that next. [ man ] cortana, when my wife calls

remind me to tell her happy anniversary. [ cortana ] next time you talk to caroline, i'll remind you. [ siri ] oh no, i cannot do that. oh, and remind me to get roses when i'm near any flower shop. sure thing. remind you when you get to flower shop. i can't do that either. cortana, it's gonna be a great night. [ beep ] oh wow! thanks for the traffic alert. i better get going. now that is a smart phone. ♪ oh, wait ♪ it's 'cause you make me smile ♪

for the past 24 years bob mcculloch has been the prosecutor for st. louis county, running as a democrat and winning re-election four times. he has found himself part of this controversy since the shooting of michael brown. black leaders have questioned his ability to be fair since he has a lot of friends and relatives in lawor enfcement. plus, critics point out that mcculloch's own father, who was also a cop, was killed with his own gun by a black assailant when mcculloch was just a 12-year-old boy. joining me now alex, former police officer. judge, good to see you. so far he's said i'm not stepping down, i can handle this case. here's my question for you, if he goes forward and continues to

handle the case and it's not him, it's an underling, he overseas it and is ultimately responsible. if this goes forward and he has to prosecute it, is that good or bad for officer darren wilson? >> well, it could go either way. first of all he doesn't have to get off the case. he's not related to the defendant. he doesn't have a personal interest in it. so legally he doesn't have to. but prosecutors can always get off the case if they choose to, just avoid the appearance of impropriety. the problem i would have if i was the police officer in this case is there's been so much made about this. there's so many people saying he can't be fair, he has a lot of police relatives, his father was killed by a black man using his own gun years ago, 50 years ago, we're talking half a century ago. i'd be afraid that mcculloch would be bending over backwards to make sure that nobody thinks that he's being in any way biased against the victim in

this case. and that ends up prejudicing the police officer, the defendant in the case. i don't think he'll do that. i think, you know, prosecutors they're very professional. they take on whatever case comes, whether it's a police officer or a judge, an electrician, and they try the case to the best of their ability. but, you know, you would -- if i were a defendant, i have the fear of like everybody is looking at him if the evidence is not there to indict is he going to indict anyway? >> because there's so much political pressure on him to do so. we had a state senator on the program last week saying he needs to indict otherwise there are going to be riots and saying he is not the legitimate prosecutor in this case because she said even though he won four times, he did not win the black vote. >> well, that's ridiculous. then we get rid of the whole electoral process because let's say a judge gets elected chlgt like i was the first cuban elected to the circuit court in miami. before me we couldn't win. so i guess because the bench was primarily white men, we could come before the court and say we don't want to be tried by any of

these judges. the hispanic community didn't vote for them. that's not the way the electoral system works. that's also like saying that a judge who has a personal divorce can't sit in family court because he has personal experience of a certain nature and he'll be biased against the woman in the case. you know, that's just not the case. >> do you think -- explain -- before i let you go, explain this grand jury process to the audience. you heard darryl parks suggesting that that system is somehow weighed against michael brown and perhaps in favor of the officer who they're considering indicting. >> no, it's the absolute opposite. if it doesn't get indicted by the grand jury, then the evidence clearly wasn't there. and i'm sure after the fact they will release all that evidence in order to show what was presented to the grand jury and why there was no case made. but as you pointed out rightfully, the saying is you can indict a ham sandwich because in a grand jury proceeding there is no other side being presented. the prosecutor is presenting all

the evidence the prosecutor wants to present. doesn't present any evidence that counters it, any counter witnesses. so it's all one-sided. if at that point the grand jury hears this and said, look, even if i accept all of your best evidence without any dispute from the other side, i can't indict. then that was a weak, weak case. >> yeah. that is very telling. >> if there is an indictment, it's not an indication that it's a strong case. it's just an indication that they were able to meet that very low burden. >> then it moves on to the petite jury as we call it in law. judge, great to see you. >> great pleasure, thank you. >> the brown family lawyer says the autopsy diagrams provided by dr. michael baden are all that's needed to justify the immediate arrest of officer wilson. but is that true? dr. baden is here next. plus, we'll look at what the law says. when can an officer shoot at someone who is unarmed and running away? coming up. we are born makers. so we made a car with the most technologically advanced

all-wheel-drive system in its class. the all-new chrysler 200. america's import tm ♪ ♪ start a team. join a team. walk to end alzheimer's. visit alz.org/walk today. feet...tiptoeing. better things than the pain, stiffness, and joint damage of moderate to seve rheumatoid arthritis. before you and your rheumatologist decide on a biologic, ask if xeljanz is right for you. xeljanz (tofacitinib) is a small pill,

not an injection or infusion, for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well. xeljanz can relieve ra symptoms, and help stop further joint damage. xeljanz can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers have happened in patients taking xeljanz. don't start xeljanz if you have any infection, unless ok with your doctor. tears in the stomach or intestines, low blood cell counts and higher liver tests and cholesterol levels have happened. your doctor should perform blood tests before you start and while taking xeljanz and routinely check certain liver tests. tell your doctor if you have been to a region where fungal infections are common, and if you have had tb, hepatitis b or c, or are prone to infections. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take. one pill, twice daily, xeljanz can reduce ra pain and help stop further joint damage, even without methotrexate. ask about xeljanz.

[ dog barks ] ♪ [ male announcer ] imagine the cars we drive... being able to see so clearly... to respond so intelligently and so quickly, they can help protect us from a world of unseen danger. it's the stuff of science fiction... minus the fiction. and it is mercedes-benz... today. see your authorized dealer for exceptional offers through mercedes-benz financial services.

live from america's news headquarters. the united kingdom raising its terror threat level to severe, that's the country's second highest threat level. it's in response to the increased violence caused by the terrorist group isis in iraq and syria. this is the first time in three years britain has raised its threat level this high. prime minister david cameron leaving no options off the table. >> we need a firm security response, whether that is action to go after the terrorist, international cooperation on intelligence or uncompromising measures against terrorists here at home. >> meantime, the white house saying it does not expect to follow britain's lead and raise our terror threat level. this as u.s. war planes continue the attack on isis positions near mosul. there have been 110 strikes since the operation in iraq began three weeks ago. the pentagon saying military operations there have cost

around $560 million since mid-june. and attorneys for sddzhokha tsarnaev until at least 2014. his lawyers say they need more time to sort through the evidence. and pro-russian rebels making gains against government forces in eastern ukraine as questions continue about russia's possible involvement. the rebels are now in control of a strategic coastal town just a day after ukraine said tanks from russia had invaded. one rebel commander claiming no help was coming from russia. but a top rebel leader saying russia is supplying equipment and fighters. the environmental protection agency issuing a lengthy report saying smog rules need to be stricter. the report concluding less ozone should be allowed in the air. environmental activists say it will help save lives. others say the proposed regulation just costs too much. i'm mary ann rapperty.

now back to "the kelly file." for the latest headlines go to foxnews.com. those things speak for themselves. why would he be shot in the very top of his head? 6'4" man. makes no sense. and so that's what we have. and that's why we believe those two things alone are ample evidence for this officer to be arrested. >> that was brown family attorney darryl parks who we just spoke to. speaking at a news conference on monday august 18th. he was detailing the results of a private autopsy done by dr. michael baden at the brown family's request. but despite what mr. parks said, neither dr. baden nor the autopsy were quite so clear cut. the bullet wounds could have come when brown had his hands up or not. he could have been running from the officer or running toward

him. and we still don't know the results of the autopsy done by the county investigators. joining us now from newton, massachusetts, dr. michael baden, the former chief medical examiner for new york city. and a man who has helped with a number, a number of high profile cases including the trial of o.j. simpson, the death of actor john belushi and i could go on. >> thank you, megyn. you got it just right when you said that was just right. >> how so? >> about we can't tell if the hands were up or down and whether all the bullets were from the front or maybe one of the bullets could have been from behind. that we need more information about. >> one of the bullets could have been from behind, but he was shot six times. you're saying the autopsy did show that five of the six definitely were shot at michael brown face-to-face? >> well, the two in the top of the head was. the top of the head and the face were with his head bent down a

little bit front-to-front, yes. the arm, since the arm is movable 180 degrees, some gunshot wounds in the arm could be from front or back since the arm can be turned around. >> so it's -- one is not clear. but the majority of the wounds according to your examination occurred when the men were facing each other. >> face-to-face. >> okay. we don't know how far apart they were, correct? >> they were more than two feet apart because there's no gunshot residue on the body. >> okay. and what mr. parks is saying and the brown supporters are saying is because the fatal wound went in through the top of michael brown's head, that is proof positive that he was down like this surrendering, that he was in a surrendering posture. is that true or is that not true? >> it could be that way, but it needn't be that way. all it means -- what it means is that the head was bowed down toward the shooter.

the shooter is standing up struck -- had the gun pointed at the top of the head. >> let me ask you something that may be a dumb question. michael brown is getting shot. you said that was the fatal shot, the one that hit him up here. so he's getting shot. we know that, by the officer, bullets are going into his body. doesn't it seem obvious that of course he probably would be -- when you're getting shot -- he had been shot several times. couldn't he just have been falling over? >> yes, absolutely. that could be what happened. that's why we need all the forensic evidence from what the shirt -- the examination of the shirt will be important, the toxicology's important. the initial struggle in the car, if there was a struggle, should be able to be identified by examination of the inside of the car. that becomes very important for forensic evidence. and he could be standing still. he could be backing up. or he can be going forward as

far as the autopsy's concerned, face-to-face more the majority -- >> the autopsy results are just not a slam dunk for either side. it's going to come down to other direct evidence and testimoni s testimonials. >> yes. >> so the toxicology report, reportedly shows marijuana in michael brown's system. i mean, is that even relevant given marijuana today? i mean, marijuana's legal in several states. is that relevant? or might this have been some laced marijuana that would have made him act crazy? where is that going to go? >> the marijuana itself is irrelevant to what happened. if it's combined with other drugs, it's so hard to evaluate leaks that are not substantiated by an official report. if there were some pcp or phetamine. the marijuana by itself would

not be a factor. >> dr. baden, always interesting talking to you. thank you so much, sir. >> thank you, megyn. >> what a career he has had. i mean, he is it. there is nobody who's done what dr. michael baden's done in this country. so let's say that mr. brown had his hands up as his friends claim and actually eyewitnesses who don't know him are claiming. and let's say we know he was unarmed, which we do. is that the end of this case? is that ball game? is that all they need to show this officer went beyond the guidelines for deadly force? joining me now trial attorney and criminal defense attorney mike eiglarsh. mark, is that ball game? >> i think it's very difficult for him to say reasonably he had the right to shoot him if his hands were up. but i would want to know more. maybe he's running towards him with his hands up. which seems ludicrous. i can't imagine that's what happened. all i'm saying is he deserves

due process like anyone in this country does. let's wait. we don't have it all. >> we on this show have been saying that all along. i think the viewers know that's of course the way it has to be. of course he gets due process. everybody gets their rights protected. let me ask you, what is the standard for when an officer can shoot someone to death who is unarmed and running away from him? >> well, in the tennessee garner case -- >> supreme court. >> decided by the supreme court in 1985. they decided that that officer must have reasonable suspicion that that person is a danger of death or seriously bodily harm to that officer or the community before they shoot a fleeing felon to effectuate an arrest. >> so if he had a legal belief that michael brown was off to hurt somebody in the community or still posing a deadly threat to him, then he could shoot to kill. do you agree with that, mark? >> absolutely. and if he had knowledge -- we don't know what the facts are, but if he had knowledge of what took place in the store which could have been reported as a

strong arm robbery. so he thinks maybe he's violent. and coupled with what we're hearing he's claiming happened in his vehicle, punching in the face, going for the gun allegedly, i have no idea if this is what happened. those two things together would give him an obligation to protect the community from further violence. >> let's assume all that's true. let's assume in the best case of officer wilson he knew. he knew about the robbery, conflicting evidence on whether he knew or did not know. and let's assume they had a scuffle in the car that we put on michael brown. >> and punched him allegedly. >> and went for his gun. totally inappropriate. and a felony. let's assume that happened. then michael brown starts running away from him. and this is the part i keep stopping on. it's a bad situation at the car. bad. if michael brown did that stuff, it's bad. it's a crime. but then he was running away. so could the cop argue he went for my gun, i was afraid for my life, he hurt me and so i reasonably believed even though

he was running away from he he was going to go hurt somebody else or the threat to me was not over. >> hands up, don't shoot. megyn, that is the key issue. >> i'm one step before that. i agree with you if he's got hands up, don't shoot, the cop's done. but take it back one step prior to that. can the cops shoot the guy if he can prove all that stuff i just said but michael brown is still running away? does he even have an argument? >> if michael brown is running away at the time, it's shaky at best that he could prove that he was a danger of serious death or bodily harm or death to himself or the community as he's running away. he could see nothing that indicates he's armed and many of the cases decided along this line the question was did the officer reasonably believe that that person was armed. and when all you have -- >> no, it doesn't have to be. >> when all you have is the physical altercation, you do not necessarily have enough to believe that they can cause

death or serious bodily harm to the community. >> megyn, the law does not require the person to be armed, number one. but i do agree that it comes down to reasonableness. the law's just out there, but jurors whether it be a grand jury or the trier of fact if this ultimately goes to a jury trial, they're going to focus on the one word that's repeated several times in the language of the law, reasonable. is it reasonable for an officer to conclude that someone running under those circumstances would be justified in shooting. reasonableness. that's the case. >> i think what happens after that if he has his arms up or doesn't, it's the cop's testimony that's going to be critical. even if the eyewitnesses say the hands were up in self-defense or in surrender. if the cop can convince the jury that what he saw was an aggressor in some way, shape or form and they believe that, he could get self-defense. guys, good debate. thank you both so much. >> thank you, megyn. >> as the riots played out on the streets of ferguson after the shooting and the crowd calls for this officer to be arrested and indicted, attorney general

eric holder spoke up and said he understood their distrust of law enforcement and he empathized with their anger because he as a black man had has his own experiences growing up with police. up next we'll take a closer look at the doj's role in this case. plus, what about the ferguson business owners who saw their stores looted and burned? who's standing up for them? wait until you hear the latest twist. that's just ahead. like diet can negatively impact good bacteria? even if you're healthy and active. phillips digestive health support is a duo-probiotic that helps supplement good bacteria found in two parts of your digestive tract. i'm doubly impressed! phillips' digestive health. a daily probiotic. we think they're the best-fitting pants in fashion. with technology that slims and shapes and five-pocket styling. they'll be the star of your wardrobe. chico's so slimming peyton pants. we're famous for our legs. at chico's and chicos.com. (vo) ours is a world of come on let's go! (vo) the red-eyes.

(daughter) i'm really tired. (dad) i feel bad for you. (vo) the transfers. well, that's kid number three. (vo) the return trips. how you feeling buddy? i'm fine, dad. (vo) the day trips. (boy) i get it this time! (vo) the carpools. see...now this is why i wanted girls. (boy) i called it! (vo) the co-pilots. all sitting... ...trusting... ...waiting... ...for a safe arrival. which is why we built our greatest subaru sedan ever, with road-gripping symmetrical all-wheel drive, and available eyesight driver assist technology. to help the driver in you... ...care for the passenger in them. introducing the all-new subaru legacy. it's not just a sedan. it's a subaru. cozy or cool? exactly the way you want it ... until boom, it's bedtime! your mattress is a battleground of

thwarted desire. enter the sleep number bed. right now, all beds are on sale. he's the softy. his sleep number setting is 35. you're the rock, at 60. and snoring? sleep number's even got an adjustment for that. you can only find sleep number at a sleep number store. right now save 50% on the labor day limited edition bed, plus 24-month special financing. hurry ends monday! know better sleep with sleep number. sensitive bladder? never miss a chance to dance. just because you happen to sprinkle a little tinkle. introducing a revolution in bladder leak protection from the experts in feminine protection. new always discreet. for sensitive bladders. up to 40% thinner for superior comfort. absorbs 2x more than you may need for dance-all-you-want protection. new always discreet. now bladder leaks can feel like no big deal. because hey, pee happens.

personally i've seen a lot in my time as attorney general but few things have affected me as greatly as my visit to ferguson. i had the chance to meet with the family of michael brown. i spoke to them not just as attorney general but as a father of a teenage son myself. they like so many in ferguson want answers. >> well, that was attorney general eric holder after his visit to ferguson, missouri, on august 20th. mr. holder met with michael brown's parents and community leaders while in ferguson as hi department conducts a federal investigation into this shooting. mr. holder has made a point of talking about his emp think for the protesters in ferguson and their feelings of distrust for the police. jay christian adams, a former doj attorney who worked for eric holder and now legal editor of pj media. chris, good to see you. eric holder i'm sure has had experiences growing up as a black child and now black man with law enforcement. i'm sure he does empathize with

the black community. is it appropriate for him to be speaking about this publicly in this context when we don't know whether michael brown was a victim or the aggressor here? >> no, it's not appropriate, megyn, because part of due process means keeping your mouth shut when you're the attorney general and especially not saying the sorts of things he said. what he did in those quotes, megyn, is to create a sense of racial allegiance with michael brown. he talked about his experiences that he didn't like with the police, how they stopped him, how he thought they acted inappropriately. this is an effort to put pressure on local prosecutors, local grand jurors and take sides in a very incendiary matter -- >> let me take the other side. why can't it just be an effort on our black attorney general to speak to many black protesters in ferguson, missouri, who are mad and don't believe the police are going to dpif them a fair

shake and ticked off the police opened with water cannons and rubber bullets on them and by trying to lower the temperature by saying, i get it, you can trust me. this is why you can trust me. >> well, first of all, because the law doesn't work that way. there's a federal civil rights statute that will be enforced in this instance. and eric holder can enforce those laws without taking the appearance of taking sides. but that's not in his dna. he has to take sides on anything like this because he's attempting to appease the president's political base. he's attempting to influence the outcome. and it's just inappropriate for an attorney general to do this. no attorney general would act this way. >> were you surprised to hear him say nothing has effected him in his tenure as attorney general as ferguson has? >> well, especially for somebody who has all sorts of intelligence coming to him about terrorist threats around the world. i would think there's a whole

lot more. >> it's like this man is involved in a terrorist attack that occurred in our country, but he's saying, i don't know, i thought it was an extraordinary statement. >> why it's not surprising to me, megyn, is this is an attorney general for whom race is everything. race is why he has an aggressive policy to the civil rights division to not enforce the law equally. to put a thumb on the scales of justice. to take sides in situations like this. he says so. he says that the civil rights division and representing the civil rights groups and holding arm and arm with al sharpton at sharpton's convention, that's what this attorney general's about. it's not about equality. it's about race. >> j christian adams, good to see you. >> thanks, megyn. riots and protest have put ferguson on the national radar. but for those who live and work in the small suburb, they're ready for life to get back to normal. mike tobin talked to a business owner about why he's committed

to reopening for his community and his employees next. if you ware a denture, take the simple test. press your tongue against it like this. it moves unlike natural teeth. do you feel it? it can happen with every denture. introducing new fixodent plus true feel. it helps keep dentures firmly in place. with a smooth formula, free of flavors and colorants. so you get a closer feeling to natural teeth.

new fixodent plus true feel. fixodent. and forget it.

[ bleep ] [ bleep ] [ bleep ]. >> well, that is one of the most played videos from ferguson, missouri this month. protesters burning down a convenience store just days after the michael brown shooting. those who live and work in the small town say the rioting, the looting, is not what ferguson stands for at all. their goal now, getting back to normal. fox's mike tobin spoke with the owner of the original red's barbecue in ferguson.

>> it's a sad thing what happened the way it took a violent turn. i hope it does not happen again. because it's not just us as business owners suffer. it instills a sense of fear among the general population that lives around. i think they're scared, oh, there's craziness out there, let's not go there. we couldn't operate our smoke houses in the back. we wanted to let people know we are open, so we brought it out tried to make it a big block party, try to give it a positive spin because people are scared to come out. businesses are scared to open up. parents are scared to let their children play outside. this is not what the community is. this has a nice homely feeling to it. we wanted just to give something positive, say, hey, it's okay. sense of normalcy. it's not all violence and not all the looting as what you've been shown. that's not what it is. definitely business took a toll. it has affected business. we did that outside cooking just for the one weekend and that was just to have a sense of normalcy back in the community that, hey,

it's okay. we're out here. we're here to serve you. >> while you're doing just a fraction of your business, you're keeping your staff on. >> yes. >> can you do payroll? >> i will one way or another because they have been with me for two years. and they are just of the majority the demographic that lives in the neighborhood these are people who live paycheck-to-paycheck. i can survive without one paycheck, but it's going to be hard if i cost them to change their plans entirely because loss of one paycheck. they're with me. they're with me in this. so we are an extended family. so i'm happy to take care of them. being angry is not going to do anything. it's not going to put anything positive out there. it's just to make peace with it, move on, things happen in life. you deal with it. and we'll be back. one of my employees, he's the most passionate employee we have out here and he said we will be back. that's true.

we will be back. we will survive this month for sure. up next, how ferguson may now be looking to the american taxpayer to bail it out of the financial damage imposed by all of this. who's more excited about back to school savings at staples? the ladies? these guys? or these guys? when you get guaranteed low prices on everything you buy the most, everybody gets excited! staples. make more happen for less. so what we're looking for is a way to "plus" our accounting firm's mobile plan. and "minus" our expenses. perfect timing. we're offering our best-ever pricing on mobile plans for business. run the numbers on that. well, unlimited talk and text, and ten gigs of data for the five of you would be... one-seventy-five a month. good calculating kyle.

good job kyle. you just made partner. our best-ever pricing on mobile share value plans for business. now with a $100 bill credit for every business line you add. when folks think about wthey think salmon and energy. but the energy bp produces up here creates something else as well: jobs all over america. engineering and innovation jobs. advanced safety systems & technology. shipping and manufacturing. across the united states, bp supports more than a quarter million jobs. when we set up operation in one part of the country, people in other parts go to work. that's not a coincidence. it's one more part of our commitment to america.

and she gave me advice. she said, "dad, go pro with crest pro-health." [ male announcer ] go pro with crest pro-health. immediately, i felt a difference. it did an extremely good job of cleaning. [ male announcer ] crest pro-health protects all these areas dentists check most. this deep clean was way more than i ever expected. [ male announcer ] 4 out of 5 dentists confirmed these pro-health products helped maintain a professional clean. my daughter inspired me to make a change. crest pro-health really brought my mouth to the next level.

where he will, the ferguson city council has approved a million dollar aid package to help the businesses hurt in the ferguson protests, but it is apparently not enough. now some are pushing for a federal bailout.

the county executive saying of the feds, "if they can bail out the banks, they can bail out ferguson." what do you think of that? go to facebook.com/thekellyfile. follow me on twitter. let me know your thoughts. i'm megyn kelly. this is "the kelly file." welcome to this special edition of "hannity." for the entire hour we're going to be focusing on the rise of radical islam around the world and what it means for the safety and security for our homeland. recently i had the opportunity to speak with former vice president dick cheney about the dangers posed by the islamic extremists and he explained why the administration needs to wake up and take these terrorist threats very seriously. you know, you said a while back that a lot of people kind of hemmed and hawed at what you said, you predicted america will likely get hit in the next ten years in a way that is worse than 9/11. did you watch