game over and goodnight. ♪ >> people are sick >> we need to take action now. >> i want action against pollution, too, but what exactly is pollution and why does government always go too far. >> we give the epa unpress dented authority. >> the epa has dock the green monster. a monster that tramples on our lives. >> that's our show tonight. >> the green monster. it sound fair. the e p epa has created rules

that made the environment cleaner. the air and water, we are filthy. people forget how bad it was. let me remind you. here's the star anchor man reporting on the state of america. >> hydrocarbons metal fuel, odors and mal odd dorrs on each and every day. >> some of that was media hype. there's always media hype. in truth much of america was still prest teen. it is also absolutely true in many cities near industrial plants the air cause fellthy, much cleaner now. even the water. >> at the site of the empire state building within a short distance of millions of people flushing, i am willing to do this. >> thanks epa. you have required sewage

treatment plants and cad lytic converters on cars. good work. in a rational world the epa would say, stick a fork in it, it is done. but bureaucracies never say they are done. done means bureaucrats are out of can't have that. even though the air and water are much cleaner no you the politicians keep adding new rules then they applaud themselves for doing that. >> i am really proud of president obama for these new epa regulations and for the strong stand that he has taken on climate change at home. >> another person who is happy with the epa rules is daniel white the league of conservation voters. not so happy is environmental law professor jonathan adler. why not? you don't want a clean environment? >> of course i want a clean environment. we make the mistake that having a clean environment is adding a

regulation. >> isn't this enough already? >> first, i don't hear anybody complaining that things are too clean. in fact, millions of americans still live in metropolitan areas where the air can cause respiratory ailments and trigger asthma attacks. second we have a lot of water that needs to be cleaned up. third we need to deal with climate change which is a global problem. we have to start here at home by reducing the carbon solution responsible for climate change. >> you confuse a lot of things there. you talk about pollution and climate change. there's confusion about what pollution and carbon pollution really mean. when i think of pollution and carbon i think of coal. you burn this and you get filthy soot in the air. this is real pollution. touch this filthy on your fingers. the new rules of carbon dioxide. you ex mail carbon docks.

plants needed to grow. they cause carbon dioxide? i don't think so. they mix everything together. >> carbon production yuck. clean energy, that's the way. clean energy that's the way. >> carbon collusion yuck. >> am i unfair in saying they are confused? >> i think it is fair to say a lot of people assume when we are talking about climate change we are talking about pollution. nothing the epa put on the table for climate change will actually do anything to what it was learned about. >> if we are serious about dealing with climate change we need to produce per capita emissions of carbon dioxide to the level they were before the civil war. >> how is that going to make a

difference? >> you can't address a problem instantaneously. we have to start by having the united states which took the most carbon into the atmosphere and produce theed its carbon. once we have done that we get other countries to reduce their carbon pollution, too. >> good luck with that. >> may i finish, please? one of the things that happened since the administration had the clean power proposal a month ago others are starting to indicate they are going to do more to produ reduce their pollution. >> i will believe it when i see it. here is a commercial your group runs that criticizes people like jonathan who attacks the new epa rules. >> fear mongering, false, bogus and truth test they pollute our air and pollute the airwaves with lies blowing smoke to protect their profits. >> polluting the airways with lies. >> certainly don't know why i could be accused of that. we certainly all care about the

environment. i think climate change is a problem. the united states, china -- >> you think it's a problem? >> it is not somethi-- it has tt out of innovation and entrepreneur ship and that's something the epa encourages. >> not a single cleanup has occurred of any major pollutants to voluntary measures. innovation is driven by regulation. right now putting pollution is free. why would you develop a more expensive way to address that when putting the pollution air is free. >> he is certainly right. the environment is one area where free market won't things. we have had great success. we have had a chart of how air pollution is down. you provided this chart which shows how it was falling even before the epa.

>> exactly. >> sulfur dioxiddioxide, what happened? >> there was a driven bee being more efficient. there were state and local rues that in some cases regulated the emissions and in some caseses. >> it was dropping faster before the epa regulated it. >> the reality is everyone acknowledged some work on this. sulfur dioxide were declining before they were created. >> why? >> local communities care about air quality. in some cases companies could be liable for lawsts. in some cases we realize the more stuff that is going on, your smoke stack that is material you are wasting. >> a lot of selfish reasons they were cleaning up. >> some cases it was state and local government saying they had to do better. >> revision has made up history.

let me read you a quote. >> don't read me a quote. >> i have a question for you. you have every chance to address this here. he says, many people say that the stuff we are doing now to try to address climate change is going to make no difference. it costs a fortune. what's the point? >> it doesn't cost a fortune. second of all, it will drive innovation. and jonathan was completely telling fairy tales when he describe the how state arched local governments on their own with happy companies led to decline in pollution. it was clean air act, clean water act and other laws that set the standards and let the state implement it. >> people running for the tank and they won't get it done without the big feds? >> that's right. remember what the epa is doing now is implementing a law passed

by the congress and interpreted wr by the john roberts supreme court that said carbon pollution is covered by the clean air act. they are enforcing a law, if congress doesn't like the law they can try to change it. until then they are not doing this on their own. we are -- >> can i finish, john. >> you talked so much it's hard to let you finish. >> they are regulating carbon dioxide, we exhale that. >> if i put you in a room with nothing but carbon dioxide you wouldn't live very long. johnson made a spurious charge which says actions that produce pollution, if he said that in

1997 our moral iterate in the u.s. is down by 8 percent. >> jonathan you get the reply. i am sure it is for other wooens. in some cases they change the air pollution. >> crony capitalism. >> you have done great things. acid rain, the ozone where the federal problem such as interstate and air pollution. there wouldn't be too many complaints on it. we are out of time on this. where do you have this debate? you want clean air. i am open to the poszibility climate change is something me

don't want to address. ber told we can -- >> the only car you will ever need. continued it might just choose the world. >> david says we are being tricked. what do you mean? >> well, it can't change anything because she only sell a thousand of them each year. it would probably be around 2 houn thousand dollars. with krohnism and other subsidies a if you use it almost almost thu lose 49 thouldz on all that thbuilt. this is what we called a scam. it is happening with energy, all

kinds of alternative energies subsidized. also companies rely on cust tid des. >> but the government decides this company is good. we will give you a special break. >> a special if you lob de hem get right to the government who are the ones that benefit from the subsidies. sole that are system. it is hard to tell but ten's of millions. mostly tem brats to perry hae. he's now in the senate. it is a bad way to practice capitalism. it is crapitalism. >> it is unhealthy for government to act that way because it leads to corruption

quite often. it is bad for cap pallism this don't have to sue it in washington. >> oo there are 19 companies that have government money, muir money. we have to subside dies the newcomers. >> in any type of industry we take televisions with don't have subsidies. we zoom ahead. in the industry we are moving forward with pro dressive ideas and windmills and solar dan nelles. koven sumers are not winning. at thats more expensive. >> 20, 30 years ago she wants to ask. windows has been around for the

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john: in wyoming, a farmer had the nerve to put >> a farmer has the nerve to put a stream on his proper. >> now you can see bald eagles here. we have moose come down, four and 5 pound brown trout. it has been environmental benefit. >> great maybe you want to do something like that. you better not. even if you think your property is your property, in america today tit's not. >> the fact that you own it doesn't matter. the epa bureaucrats and the green monster may smash through your wall. better hope the monster doesn't take notice and focus his wrath

on you. >> that was the incredible hulk. in many ways the epa likes that green monster. now the monster focused its wrath on an tdy johnson. he own the small farm. you built a pond, why? >> we wanted to provide stock watering for our horses and cows, improve our property and provide an environmental benefit as well. >> to build a pond means a dike, you are diverting water that might have gone to somebody else, right? >> our pond is designed where we have a spillway and it comes up to a certain level and dumps over. we don't regulate it at all. we are not actually blocking the water. >> so you go to your state environmental official. you bet fer mission? >> yes, i went to the epping near's office and sent off a stock pond permit from the state

of wyoming to the office. we began our project. >> we checked the engineer's office says it is in good standing and entitled to be exercised exactly as permitted. the feds come in and they say what? >> mr. johnson you may or may not be in violation but you need to prove to us you are innot. >> not what? >> in violation. >> it is 4 one times cleaner than the alleged water that affected it so they say. >> the epa give yave you 30-day dismantle the pond. >> not sure how you do that. >> suspect quite possible. >> may be fines of 185,000 per day. >> extortion. i don't know any other way to say it. it is ridiculous. >> most people pay if you can

the fight the government, you can't afford the lawyers. are you to going to cave? >> no, sir. we are going to fight them all of the way. i have legal foundations backing me up. >> mr. johnson's construction of a dam was in violation of a clean water act permitting process. >> no. the state never informed me of any other federal permit that i needed. i we know the through all of the hoops that the state of wyoming required in order to build this. i asked all of the neighbors all of the locals. turns out i am one of the very, very few that have a state permit. >> he is not lying about this. we got a note from the governor of the state mr. johnson constructed his pond appropriately. the actions of the epa have been heavy handed. they want to aeks panned the their -- expand their authority. >> they want to take over all

jurisdiction on private property. i think they are using me as a test case. >> the epa may adjust the rules and increase the amount of landed over which it has jurisdiction. that upset one family who had ditches and dried up river beds wetland. they made this song... ♪ that's enough that's enough ♪ ♪ the epa ♪ they will try to justify ♪ but we won the back down ♪ don't need our government anyway ♪ >> you have some company out west fighting them. >> absolutely. >> this idea that they showed a canoe in a dry ditch, does this resinate? >> they want to be in charge of

every drop of water that hits the earth. who knows where the end is on this. >> thank you, andy. you are not alone and you are fighting this. i wish you the best of luck. >> coming up, myths, lies and complete stupidity about america's search for energy. >> oklahoma has more than 100 earthquakes since friday. today is only monday. when i had my first migraine, i was lucky. that sounds crazy, i know.

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gas. the frackers do use dangerous chemicals and might spill them. state regulation is supposed to prevent that but the protestors warrant much more, they want epa to step in. that seems reasonable in a way. one federal rule instead of all of these different state regulations. but steve everly who works with oil and gas companies says putting the epa in charge would be a threat to our future. >> it is on state and private land. when the government is in control you see denies and delays. >> this boom has been great. >> it has been work for workers and people's energy bills have been going down. co2 emissions are at the lowest new york city has the cleanest number years. if you put the government in it there's an extra hoop they would have to jump through.

>> you have states like ver mocht, both banned for now -- vermont outlawed it new york has a moratorium that goes on forever. >> the vieirony with vermont th is no oil and gas to produce. it is easy for them to say we are going to ban fracking. two months after they did that the government stood in front of a gas facility and said how it was going to deliver affordable clean energy. >> where did think get the gas from? >> from other states where track fracking isn't happening you look at some of these other states like california and illinois they rejected the band activity out there. and they ne a lot of these claims fall into those categories. >> there's a case in texas where

the epa inserted itself in the state case and they said fracking was to blame for bad water quality. the epa official cause col lewding with the environmental group? >> the epa said this house was at risk of exploding because of methane in the water. it had nothing to do with gas grilling. >> his quarter turned out prior but he had hooked his hose up to a gas vent. they drilled into the nas they had. the question in request. he would caught saying he would regular the gas industry the way the romans once conquered

villages. villains. >> crucify them. >> exactly. >> after the video came out he resigned a month later now he works with an environmental group that opposes fracking. >> why should we believe you? go to oil and gas companies. >> look what the obama administration said about this. the epa said it won't resist the pro it'sers instetd of what we have to do. it is more energy than any other sort. >> more energy in allergy and you in the oil companies do not want to let the oil people sell their fuel. >> if you don't want to take the word from the oil and glass

industry take the word from the newables. natural gas prauz a security come pli indicated. it is not interested in just shutting down more that is what is going to allow renewables to future. here's the latest anti tracting share. a lot of people have a huge. >> people want to know if fracking is to blame. >> you are causing earthquakes. >> it is easy to blame anything on oil and gas in oklahoma, because 70 out of 77 counties actually have oil and gas productions. anything that happens could be blamed on that. this is one area where the media is getting it dead wrong. >> we get it dead long all of

the time. this has nothing to do with fracking. it does not pose a risk for causing seismic events at all. >> this is west water. >> also what is his isn't much. there have been more than 24,000 -- the deal logical survey says if you are talking you might. >> it is better to look at this in full context rather than getting squared which one said the f word, sounds like something you would say to your grandma. >> coming up couldn't tell couldn't tell who helped form

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♪ ♪ john: do you ever see one of the incredib >> you ever see one of the incredible hulk movies? it turns him into someone who becomes a monster when he gets angry. the epa is kind of like that. in the studio is one of the creators the epa monster. you make no apologies. all. between 1968 and 1971 a half a dozen heads of professional society help the bureau of water hygiene create uscpa. i worked on a variety of committees to write six very important laws that created a safety net for our environment.

>> water pollution and control act drinking water act and i am with you on this. that stuff was good. >> it was definitely good. the government had no clue of how bad our environment is. our air was terrible. people through garbage into our water no one looked at how they put chemicals on the agriculture. we needed rules. we passed them from the 70's. from the 80's on we have done nothing of value. >> nothing of value from the 80's. let's go back to the 70d. even people who lived through the worst of the pol luis he's talking about like us often forget how polluted the air and water were. here is a walter cronkite special in a aired the first year i was a reporter. >> earth day a question of survival. act or die. >> the clear kays are fewer now. insteader forever, the view often stops with haze.

the air is threatened. >> welcome sulfur dioxiddioxide. hello carbon monoxide. >> that's just in the air the city's rivers have a whole new dimension of pollution. >> it was bad. not that bad. some of that was network news hyster hysteria. in some towns people wouldn't open windows because soot would pour in. >> the river outside of cleveland caught fire when a spark came off of a railroad car on to the polluted water. it was purplterrible, john. >> but nothing useful after 1980? they have done nothing? >> nothing whatsoever. >> environmental protection agency. >> 50,000 in pleas. >> all looking over the holder of 50 states that do all of their bidding. the state is where the action is. we should phase out epa over a

five year period and put all of the responsibility into the hands of the committee as a whole 50 state agencies move the office from washington, d.c. to topeka, kansas. improve environmental protection. >> the previous guests talked about the still air pollution in many places in the city, people getting lung cans ir and having asthma. look at a magazine in this city, try not to breathe too much air today. >> that is absurd. when i started in environmental science in the 60's we could only measure a part per million. now a part per quad trillion on. the concentrations are so small it will measure a molecule in a glass of water. there is a little bit of everything in a class of water. >> even those tiny amounts are killing people. >> they are wrong. they are not at all. they are of no importance. none of their amendments improved either our environment

or human health. all they do is ruin our economy. >> today people equate the threat of climate change with pollution. here is senator barbara boxer. >> we need to take action now to protect families and communities from the mounting impacts of climate change and dangerous 150,000 asthma attacks, 3300 heart attacks. >> so she is just -- maybe climate change is real. but it has nothing do do with heart attacks. >> you said materiallier in the show they are talking about carbon pollution they should be talking about carbon dioxide i'd. there's nothing that will allow it to be broken up into carbon and oxygen. they are trying to scare people with a false hood. >> but wouldn't it be good to reduce carbon in the air, carbon dioxide i'd? >> absolutely not.

we are only on the planet because we have carbon dioxide side. it is absurd to call it a pollutant. it is not but it has given the epa an opportunity to run our lives. >> thank you jay layer from the heartland institute a think tank in the u.s. which is unusual. the next guest we can clean america's lakes and rivers. ♪ hey, jake! come on over here for a sec. why you wanna touch my dart so bad? ♪ [ high-pitched ] why's he wanna touch it? ♪ who said i wanted to touch it? ♪ jake, you know they've got affordable leasing programs ♪ yeah, i know. i was just... ♪ just think, jake, you could get your own ♪ ♪ and you could touch it whenever you wanted ♪ ♪ you could touch it all the time ♪ ♪ all the time i don't want to touch your dart. ♪ i know you're mad, jake, but you've got to get your own ♪ i'm not mad. ♪ i know you're mad, jake ♪ ♪ but you've got to get your own ♪ ♪ i know you're mad, jake i'm getting mad, but wasn't... ♪ but ya gotta get your own ♪

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>> i am critical of the green monster the epa has become but what else do we have? without epa wouldn't pollute tors just pollute away? lakes and rivers would be filthy. there would be trash every where. that's how most of us think but we don't understand the power of private ownership. anderson is with a groups called property environmental research center. what does property have to do with the environment? >> no one washes a rental car, john. when people own things they take care of it. when they have private property

rights people can't dump their gunk on to the property. long before the epa was a glint in any one's eye they were dealing with pollution issues. >> you have a become kuled environmental market. how does it work? i am home and someone pollutes my drinking water what am i going to do about it? >> you can knock on the door of people who did it and say cease and desist and they will enforce my property rights. >> we had the an taw con dau mining company. it ruled the state. when it was discovered their piles were causing pollution on to the ranches that neighbored them they were taken to the court and had to cease and desist and take care of the damages. they quickly took care of that problem. >> they not only paid they restored some of the land.

>> absolutely. the burden was on them for the damage they caught. >> i can see how you can sue a company called anaconda copper. if my air is polluted in new york city the pollution probably comes from the wirest from new jersey but i don't know which power plant or factory. i wouldn't know which one to sue. >> this works well for local issues when it crosses state boundaries it gets more difficult. the amendments to the clean air act in 1990 took on the sulfur rain producing acid rain in the northeast. that is a place where it made essential to put some restrictions on. but even there epa understood the power of the marer marketplace and used a system where they could reduce emissions of sul ver and sell the credits to other companies

who couldn't reduce. we got more than standard epa gets us. >> these are easier to do with water pollution than air pollution. >> it is why we were cleaning up our water before 1972 in the clean water act. we have gone well over board with the restrictions. think of the agatha christie novel of someone dying at the dinner table. but the arsenic is coming out of yellowstone park, the geysers. it is in such small amount it doesn't have any effect. they are putting the plants in place to clean them up and the cities would be much better off getting a new am lance. people say it is the tragedy no

individual person cares about the fish in their area. you can't have private property making it better. t the>> what happened in fisher ry after fisher ry in new zealand and iceland we have created fishing quotas which are tradeable, which are bankable and give people an incentive to invest in their fisher ryes. these work well where we have fisher ryes controlled 200 mile limits. >> in those areas where they realize ownership we have more fish? >> absolutely. when they did what epa did and said we are going to regulate the season and the number of boats. we are going to regulate the size of boats and the list went

on all that happened was people figured out ways around it. >> now you have a dangerous catch. >> it makes a good tv show called the deadliest catch. where we have created them, we haven't done it every where what happened is fishing seasons iven creased numbers of boats decreased efficiencies improved price of fish have gone down. instead of eating fish sticks we get fresh halibut. it is a win win except for the regulators. thank you terri anderson from the property and environment research center. coming up how the green monster should be retrained. we should sink him down to the size of a small lizard. [ male announcer ] if you had a dollar for every dollar

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>> the epa is a nn ster. but you could argue it is less than a monster than other government bureaucracies because the epa hasn't constantly grown. they spend 8 billion of your tax dollars but that's less than they spend under president bush. good. however the epa is still a monss ner go away but they keep passing new ones. it is always more.

epa officials say they budget only 8 billion door lars only. even the 8 billion is misleading because when they say clean it up the cost is on you. the efa said every fuel cell must use bio mass and diesel fuel. cost the epa little to demand that but cost the fuel industry hundreds of millions to comply. they will pay the extra costs when we buy fuel. aside from costs why when the air and water are cleaner than they have been in years and they keep getting cleaner because of improvements it neck nolg they get cleaner every time they buy a new car and jumps the old one. why must the epa keep passing more rules? that's what government regulators do. if you are a bureaucrat not making rules you are not doing

your job. it is the natural progress of things for government to grow and liberty to yield. it is worse with the epa because think about who is likely to become an epa bureaucrats environmental louts. that's who. there's a revolving door between the epa and environment that will tal group. remember the guy who said he would treat the them like the romans who crucified people? >> he resigned but quickly found work at the sierra club. ear others who worked at the sierra club work for the epa. these are environmental zell louts. when they are government zealots have power over you. 16,000 work for the epa. some are religious fanatics and religion is command and control

until the earth is pure. >> some are jerks. he sent out a memo saying don't defecate in the hallway. the u.s. inspector general found one epa staffers spent 2-6 # hours of his workday watching pornography. the epa paid him 125,000 a year and gave him bonuses, performance awards. your government at work. >> i am thankful for the epa our lives are better because they forced car makers to make cars that pollute less and filters in smoke stacks. now their work is largely done. stick a fork in it. the pollution control rules already exist. we need a few inspectors but we don't need regulators constantly

trying to control more of our lives. epa should stand for enough protection already. that's our show. see you next week. ilders,huckab starts now. >> tonight on huckabee. >> this single program represents the threat to consumer choice and freedom. >> the administration putting the squeeze on business in operation choke point. >> you have been in business and the federal government said we don't like what you do. >> that's what happen. >> and the irs trying to intimidate pastors for preaching politics. church leaders are calling their bluff. >> i call back and thank you for encouraging me. i will be more bold this year. >> richard dreyvis facing off on immigration and