well, that's it for now. this is mike huckabee from new york. good night and god bless. stay tuned for "justice with judge jeanine." t t t t the rec" right now. make a great weekend. it is a terrorist army on a savage march. but who is isis? they combine viciousness on the ground with a supremacy in social media. >> it's trying to create the largest caliphate it can. >> what do we know about the man wearing a wristwatch who says he is the rightful leader of isis. >> faulker has been a shadowy presence for a very long time. >> and how he is using a former catholic school student from the boston area to spread propaganda. including the beheading videos around the world. >> why do you think this mosque keeps ending up attached to terrorism? >> isis controls the area the size of kansas across iraq and syria. you will see why they are the richest terrorist organization on earth.

>> this is like a digital network. almost like a tv station. we take you inside a terrorist troop war that surprised al qaeda. the united states and our allies. or did it? >> now, from studio j at fox news headquarters, here is greta van susteren. >> what is isis and what do they want? over the past decade colonel oliver north and war stories team have made more than 15 trips to iraq where isis is currently gaining ground. oliver north joins us. ollie, what does isis want? >> they want a caliphate, a country of their own that goes from the la vante and control every aspect of it politically, diplomatically and, of course, carry out sharia law as they see it in that part of the world that they now claim is a new islamic state. >> is there any indication that they would even stop at that?

>> no, in fact, they have said that they are going to take the fight here to the united states. they are going to take it to western europe. that's all part of their global caliphate that is in the long range plan. people often say that these kinds of organizations don't have a beyond tomorrow because some of their followers want to die in the process. in ancient revolutions like the 1917 bulavec they all want to survive the experience. relatively few of those engaged in this fight really do want to survive the experience. >> what are we doing, the united states, to stop this? >> well, not enough. if the idea is to destroy isis, we have started out the wrong way. first, the -- what the troops call the obama bugout from iraq in 2011. and now you are looking at a situation where they literally dominate the arab part of syria, and iraq, all the way down to south of baghdad and, of course, they are making millions of dollars a day from oil

revenues in addition to the money they have stolen from banks, in addition to the money that they make from everything from extortion to protection reacts to ransom. >> all right, ollie, you really dug into how isis came about. let's take a look at that. >> isis clearly at this point is the world's most terrorist group. jihadist state. >> ph.d. in islamic history and served in the u.s. army as an arabic speaking specialist. >> however, unlike al qaeda, still focused on the near enemy. it's trying to create the largest caliphate it can particularly the arab middle east now includes much the territory in syria and iraq. >> isis has effectively erased the border between the two countries. islamic state bases its claim to the caliphate on really two main things. many ways the literal reading of the karan, traditions that go back to

mohammed. they claim like a. all jihadists they follow the path of mohammed who established the first islamic state in the seventh century. >> remember when they talk about the lands of islam they mean all those lands that have ever been part of islam. >> professor at princeton university is one of the world's foremost middle eastern scholars. >> they see the lands of islam as being invaded and occupied by non-muslims. >> the militant jihadis in isis are led by their self-proclaimed leader. 43-year-old abu baghdadi. their goal? to kill or drive out so-called infidels from the lands where islam has reigned from centuries. >> the last caliphate really gentlemen lit mad adoman one established at the end of world war i. they think they are recreating that in some ways they think their caliphate is arab is even more legitimate than ottoman which is turk itish.

they believe that the only legitimate religious belief is their particular harsh brand of tsunami islam. any other who holds any other belief offensively muslim is deemed heretic libel to death or certainly exile. >> isis emerged from the al qaeda in iraq or aqi. >> the predecessor group to that was the group that abu sar suzuki started. >> he became the head of aqi. battling against u.s. coalition forces on the streets of fallujah from maddy. >> isis has been able to ellipse al qaeda by the fact that they rule a state. they are not hiding in caves and on the margins of the islamic world. [gunfire] >> they have a lot of fellows that have fought jihad, some afghanistan, many against our forces and the iraqi government forces in iraq as well as many against the government

forces of bashar al assad in syria. they have put all of these together. and when you add those to the fact that the united states really has not been there in any force for several years. >> the terrorist army of isis is now estimated to have more than 30,000 fighters from 70 countries. the way they achieve their goals is horrific. >> when isis takes over a sunni territory, it imposes strict islamic law, sharia, such as amputations for stealing, crucifixions and such for apostasy, as we know beheadings, isis clearly refers to as the two different passages in the karan that refer to the beheading of unbelievers on the battlefield. >> all indications show that many, if not all, isis fighters have a fanatical belief of fighting to the death. >> they really have, in many ways general dempsey said this a few weeks ago an apocalyptic viewpoint. isis clearly is talking about end of time battles.

armageddon type battles. >> so isis is still on this ancient quest but now it's using 21st century technology. let's bring in catherine herridge the author of the next wave. can you date about when isis began and how it's been able to move so swiftly to get 30,000 plus followers. >> isis a continuation of what we know as al qaeda in iraq. and in simple terms, this is really a group that's like al qaeda 3.0. it's younger, it's leaner, it's meaner, and it's a generation that really grew up with social media. and this is the life blood of the new digital jihad. this is how they are able to spread their message and give that impression that they are not just in iraq and syria but also here in the united states as well. >> but 30,000 people in roughly, what, a year and a half, two years? i mean, it's really hard to date it from the beginning. >> i find the 30,000 number extremely significant. unusual for the cia to

release a number in such a public way. i believe that that's an effort to further support or justify the administration's strategy now. and i think it's also radio a reflection of the fact that the cia is somewhat politicized on this issue. and when you speak to people in the intelligence community, they still don't have a great handle on how many people are actually in theater fighting on behalf of isis. >> ollie, we have learned more than 70 countries, isis fighters. you know, it's actually moved so quickly. >> as catherine just pointed out, they are experts at using social media. back in the days of aqi, no one heard of twitter or facebook or anything like that within the organization. it was then being fought by u.s. marines and soldiers throughout on bar province. the significant point of the number of recruits from foreign countries, of course is that many of them r. feared they would be able to return to their countries. there is the is possibility that youngsters who have been over there trained, equipped, fought and now come back know how to build

an ied. know how to build a improvised explosive device or commit suicide wearing a bomb vest made of nothing more or less than what two brothers found useful at a boston marathon. >> how is our intelligence gathering? it seems like all of the sudden everyone is talking about isis. has our intelligence gathering been such? we have been following this or monitoring this or are we behind. >> based on our reporting ongoing with fox with our team since 2009 this was on the intelligence community's radar for at least five years. and what we know now from our repoing is that the president was receiving information about the growing threat from isis or the rise of isis in iraq and syria for at least a year in what's called the president's daily brief. this is the most highly prized and classified document that's produced by the intelligence community. so this idea that the intelligence committee let the community down or somewhat blind sided i don't think holds any water. >> ollie and catherine, stand by. how isis is using

earthquakes and yep reviews and naked celebrities to recruit new members. you will want to see this next.

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they want to frighten us and that's their brutal propaganda. we don't need to see that. >> that was james foley's mother talking to me in their new hampshire home. so how is isis using these vicious murders with their social media savvy to get new recruits? here is catherine herridge. >> to understand isis and its terrorist army you have to look at how propaganda

has evolved since 9/11 with social media. the attacks of 9/11 used 19 men in four hijacked airplanes to kill nearly 3,000 people in new york city, the pentagon and in shanksville, pennsylvania. >> we have been traveling around the united states. >> from southern california, it was adam can a dan english speaking spokesperson for usama bin laden's al qaeda network. >> they're the ones that started this dirty war and they're the ones who will end it. >> he is still missing and has a million-dollar reward on his head. as fox news has reported extensively it was this dual citizen of yemen and america who went from being invited as luncheon guest at the pentagon after 9/11 to a digital recruiter for al qaeda. he turned operable. fox news has reported on the cleric for years. >> with the command of english, arabic and the internet. u.s. citizen anwar al-awlaki was linked to terror

attempts. attempt by the so-called underwear bomber to blow up a plane on christmas day. massacre of fort hood which killed 13. >> al awlaki was killed in yemen in 20111 by a predator hell fire missile. but he lives on through this man abdullah shae. even after serving time in yemeni prison for his actions on behalf of al awlaki and al qaeda in arabian peninsula, shae recently announced his support for caliphate press to 10,000 followers on twitter. he tweeted this photo himself with al awlaki. isis has taken social media to a whole new level. >> isis uses all platforms everything from facebook to twitter to yelp, restaurant recommendations in syria. because they use all these different platforms, they get a lot of access to the younger set. >> richard reynolds is a retired army officer who spent half of his 30 year

career in the middle east, investigating terrorist and their network of contacts. >> we see perhaps as many as 125 different languages being used by isis and isis accounts. >> people may not have homes or jobs or cars, but everyone has got a phone. >> right. you know, isis has a media center. >> just seems to me that isis almost has a rapid response team. an event happens, they have got their message up. where is the old style al qaeda can sometimes take weeks to respond. >> isis also hijacks big news events online using a sophisticated media center. analyzing the highly produced execution videos. >> the media center in syria. this is like a digital network. it's almost like a tv station if you will. >> they have the ability to move cameras, lighting, sound, into an austere

situation, do the deed without being molested, nobody is dropping bombs on them or observing them overhead. move back to their fixed facility, media center and still get it on the web in a matter of minutes. they have the capability to get the equipment, the money to do it. >> does it look to you like they have got a team with professional training? >> yes. it does. >> maybe even former journalist? >> they may be former journalist. there is some suspicion that some people in the music industry is helping them with music and sound. maybe even with executions. >> and its media guru is believed to be this 33-year-old american from the boston area all medicine abu asamara. >> he was born in france and speaks multiple languages can appear across multiple platforms. >> this is what doing online

now. >> see them taking #s and sending out their material. >> they're looking at what's trending in the u.s. and then they are hijacking that. and they did that with those nude celebrity pictures. jennifer lawrence that whole group? >> exactly. >> how quickly can some kid in st. louis make a decision like make contact, make a decision and then go to syria? >> days, hours? >> days? >> we will see somebody that will read the social media entry. it resonates with them. they go right out, take their mom and dad's credit card, buy an airplane ticket and fly off to turkey or jordan or lebanon. >> catherine, why are terrorists using words like pajamas and recipe in social media post. >> great thing for investigators is that isis puts its message right out there in the open. you just need to know where to find. if if you collect and sift through this information, what investigators saying a grey gait the information, you can see what they are talking about most. but what often jumps out are

phrases like so cute or pajamas or peanut butter and investigators try to drill down to see whether this may be some kind of code or a message that they are trying to communicate to their followers sort of under the radar. >> this is so profoundly different than al qaeda. isn't it? the isis vs. al qaeda is hugely different with social media. >> it's a generational divide. really with isis they found a way to use media that pours gasoline on the fire of radicalization. in the old days, and when i say the old days, i'm talking about 9/11, it used to be that for someone to be recruited or radicalized they had to have this kind of one-on-one contact like you and i are having right now. sort of the mentoring thing. social media has really erased that younger people who have grown up with social media make that very intimate contact on line so intimate that they can have that confidence to either carry out act of violence here at home or travel overseas to join jihad and

syria in iraq. >> catherine, thank you. coming up, we investigate the allusive leader of isis and learn some surprising new facts. that's next. ♪ it was the best day -[ laughing ] -yeah! ♪ it was the best day ♪ it was the best day yeah! ♪ it was the best day ♪ 'cause of you we make a great pair. -[echoing] great pair. -huh? progressive and the great outdoors! we make a great pair. right. totally. uh, that's what i was thinking. hmm. covering the things that make the outdoors great. now, that's progressive. call or click today.

so who is the leader of isis? here's what we know about the allusive and viciousz al:=$ baghdadi. [speaking foreign language] >> little is known about america's most wanted terrorist. 43-year-old abu al baghdadi.

the isis leader has a 10-million-dollar u.s. bounty on his head. in july, he made a rare public appearance at a mosque in mosul, iraq. wearing what appeared to be an expensive watch he commonly cleaned his teeth before speaking to captive audience. the leader of isis went on a 15 minute rant. [ al baghdadi has claimed himself two different terms the. >> when video of baghdadi posted online, it was the first time many of his followers had ever laid eyes on him al bad dagy was also known as ibrahim al awad. sometimes also affixed to that is al samari that part of iraq.

he is an islamic scholar. western scholars have sort of ridiculed his credentials. >> baghdadi has been a shadowy presence for a very long time. >> as a u.s. army intelligence officer kevin served three tours in iraq and afghanistan. after his military service he was a cia case officer in the middle east. >> there was questions as to whether or not he really existed. he was sometimes confused with another high value target who led al qaeda in iraq who was killed. [gunfire] just been in the battle of fallujah when the marines produced the al qaeda hamlet in fallujah in 2004-2005. he was reportedly in u.s. custody at camp bucca in iraq from 2005 to 2009. >> the now closed prison camp located in southeastern iraq was named after ronald bucca, a new york city fire marshall killed on 9/11. >> consistent with the u.s. drawdown of forces and the turnover of authority to the iraqis he was improperly let

go out of custody in 2009. >> details are sketchy about what happened next. >> we do know that al qaeda had the great amount of autonomy within those camps in iraq. they still kept their command structure. they were still ordering and planning attacks from inside custody. >> in the years following his release, baghdadi quickly climbed the ranks of al qaeda in iraq. later, the group rebranded itself as isis. >> he clearly sort of leapfrogged ahead of al qaeda by going ahead and declaring a territorial state. something that has, in many ways, empowered isis, the islamic state to really now lay claim to being the chief islamic terrorist organization in the world. >> back with colonel oliver north and joining us is middle east expert and columnist lisa and terrorism expert walid phares, author of "future jihad."

ollie, where is baghdadi. >> probably in rocca syria. headquarters. place branched out and taken from the la vant to south of baghdad yesterday. very well defended. we expect, i think they have got the same kind of if you will physical infrastructure to protect them that we saw recently in gaza. >> lisa, you agree? i saw you nodding your head that you spoke al ollie there. >> they built their infrastructure? rocca. that's when the u.s. wasn't looking and wasn't paying attention. the president was so fixated baghdadi jumped over from iraq to syria. and they built the headquarters there. and that's when they really began their plans on this caliphate, on islamic state picking over oil fields. that's where they are getting their revenue. taking over airfields and all the elements that are needed to make a state. and at the same time doing public crucifixions.

we have covered that here at fox and we have been reporting about it all along. building this caliphate and building their headquarters, he must be there because he has the protection but at times he does show his face to invigorate the cause and to radicalize others to join them as well. >> walid, i guess that's why the syria part of this is so very important. the president doesn't talk as much about syriaened at air strikes right now are not in syria. but if he is hiding there and if he is the leader. >> the whole theories are about him being in rocca definitely is the capital. it's his office and headquarters he personally may not be there. why? they have learned from what we have done with al awlaki in yemen with a drone. they have learned what we have done with killing bin laden if we know he is in a fixed position and he have to communicate unlike with bin laden who had cut off everything, this man is the chief of staff and the commander of forces. there are communications which means that while officially he could be there, he could be well mobile.

>> any idea where is he? no idea? >> all the area between mosul and rocca is the area he could be moving in. >> what you just highlighted is one of the extraordinary problems we have. we have become so dependent on signals intelligence, we have almost no human intelligence on the ground inside syria to give us any reports on where he really might be. >> all right. panel, stay with us. coming up, we are going to take a closer look at the head of isis media wing. new information about his american roots. [ male announcer ] if you had a dollar for every dollar car insurance companies say they'll save you by switching, you'd have, like, a ton of dollars. but how are they saving you those dollars? a lot of companies might answer "um" or "no comment." then there's esurance. born online, raised by technology and majors in efficiency. so whatever they save, you save.

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live from america's news headquarters, i'm kelly wright, good evening." nasa's maven explorer completing it's flight after starting

nearly a year ago the maven will study the atmosphere of the red planet for the next year. the whole thing costing $671 million. light rain, and cooler firefighters helping firefighters battle a massive wildfire in northern california. so called king fire burning more than 128 square miles, destroying ten homes, firefighters from as far as florida and alaska battling the flames the fire is also 10% contained the man accused of starting it remains in jail on $10 billion bail. i'm kelly wright. that is a look at news this hour. who is who is isis new guru. we sent griff jenkins to find out. >> he should be considered

to be armed and dangerous. he is a threat to the nation. >> richard was the special agent in charge during the boston bombing investigation. he is the guy who put a catholic school boy on the fbi's most wanted terrorist list. >> these are individuals who reside here in the united states who are radicalized on their own, oftentimes through access to online jihadi materials. >> so, is amad abu sam are led pr terror group. until he was killed by a drone in yemen. north carolina native ran the slick online magazine "inspire." now it appears isis has its own american guru abu asumara. >> not too far away from where the patriots play football. >> he had privileged upbringing as the son of. >> he went to a high school

which is a catholic school not too far away. he comes over here just for his senior year. we don't know why he left. but we know that he graduated here. >> the principal told us that he fit. in he was, you know, didn't strike her as being out of the ordinary too much. >> abu sumara studied computer science here. during this time period, authorities believe he became fully radicalized. he and his wanna be jihadi friends would spend saturday night watching al qaeda videos and becoming part of the reaction. >> post 9/11 they start to hate america. >> he traveled on several occasions overseas. his first travel was in april of 2002 when he traveled to pakistan for the purposes of seeking military style terrorist training. >> abu sumra and buddies nailed first attempt. according to these court records in abu sumra planned

an attack on civilians at a shopping mall. they also conspired to assassinate then security advisor condoleezza rice and then attorney general john ashcroft. again, they failed. >> on or about february 13th, 2014, mr. abu sumra traveled to the fallujah area of iraq. >> there, he may have made an important connection. abu some are a was in fallujah at the same time that we believe that al baghdadi was in fallujah. >> what about connections he may have made back in boston as first reported by paul, at least 8 known terrorists attended this cambridge mosque. a point the mosque denies. >> is there any information you can give us about this guy abusoumra. >> do you ever remember seeing him? >> no. no clue. >> why do you think this mosque keeps ended up attached to terrorism. >> this is false accusation as you already know. nobody knows. this is a mosque. everybody is welcome.

>> after his jihad tour, abu soumra expleets his computer science degree. he and others began producing violent propaganda videos and translating online messages from bin laden's inner circle. >> by 2006 the fbi had initiated an investigation and spoke with him as well as. >> the co-spirits would often employ code words like peanut butter and jelly for jihad. >> right now i'm in culinary school and i just made peanut butter and jelly. >> overseas to an area we in 2012 he was convictedia. in a federal court in boston and is now serving 17 years. he refused our request for an interview. >> december of 2013, mr. abusoumra was elevated to the most wanted terrorist list. >> here's the deal. he knows a lot and they want him. if he is found anywhere on

the planet, they are going to grab him. >> griff tried to track down abu soumra who moved to detroit right after his son let boston. we found him employed at a university in qatar. we're back with our panel. how is it that an american gets so radicalized and becomes a media guru for such a vicious organization. >> abu soumra is not an unusual case. what we do in america is when we find somebody who declares themself jihadist we start looking around. what school? what is the situation with the presidents. ideology touched him and touch others. the question is who is indoctrinated these people. once they are indoctrinated there are as many as we can see. i think abu soumra could have been al qaeda. this generation of al qaeda followed isis because isis is more effective on the ground. it showed them through the

video it could plant a flag, it could volume an area. that's why many are now switching to isis. >> lisa, what about women? are women recruited and if so how are they used? >> >> women are one of the big e. targets particularly women in the u.s. from isis's point of view why not bring the women if you want to grow the caliphate and they can help procreate and have jihadi families and help with revenue and sell them off as sex slaves. they need women for sexual needs. they are very open from that. from the women's point of view this is how radicalized women think they could help the cause. this is their contribution to the jihad and they go over. whether they get paid to go over or whether they are lured into some sort of love affair online this is what is going on. >> alli, abu soumra if we caught him and he were willing to talk he would be a wealth of information. >> he would be. what's even more important is what both walid and lisa said about the effect of what he is doing if he

indeed is the propagandist the fact that the entire army north of baghdad bolted after they put up videos of executions that were being carried out, mass murders and, of course, the advanced north into kurdistan was because they were showing what they could do to christians and literally crews -- crucifying children. there has not been in modern times a propaganda arm as effective as this one. so this guy is not only wanted because he has been part of a criminal enterprise. he is wanted because this is a guy who has learned how to attract tens of thousands, if you believe the numbers, into this cause of isis. if there how do you defeat that walid? >> look, we are dealing with something new testament al baghdadi unlike -- commanders of al qaeda or before that is not just an expert on islam. he is an expert on islamic history. what he is trying to do is tell them it is possible. not just going to the founding times of islam.

he is going back to the time damascus capital of the caliphate. people bring he is bringing back israel. how to defeat them. in addition to the military strike have to do. eventually it's a generational issue. we have to intercept the next generation. these guys were 12-year-old or 14-year-old on 9/11. what we need to do is make sure that the next generation is not going to go jihadist. lisa, the influence of iran was what on this whole problem. >> iran is the biggest winner in all of this. because they are still holding the puppet strings and keeping assad in power in syria. back home in iran the human rights violations, no one is calling them out on that. in the meantime, the u.s., the west has loosened the sanctions. they have the economic breathing space. they are not afraid that their own people will be out on the streets because of that economic breathing space. we have given them the time to go after the parts of the nuke program that are missing and the time to play out the clock and to actually get nuclear arms. >> panel, if you'll stand

by, everything isis does takes money and lots of it and they have it. so how do they get it? and can we stop their cash flow? that's coming up. america's newest real estate brand is all ready the brand of the year. berkshire hathaway home services. good to know.

how did they become the richest terrorist organization. joining us is matthew lovitt. a former deputy searkt at

the treasury department. he has followed the money trails for a decade. nice to see you. >> nice to see you. >> how is it getting its money. >> resources, controlling territory now. the biggest of course is oil. used to think getting as much as $2 million a day. then rolled back to a million, maybe under a million. say it's only half a million dollars a day. i would take that paycheck. that's a lot of money. they are also getting funds not as much as al qaeda and major donors in the government not as big a deal for them. primarily financed through localized crime in iraq. always meaning isis is today what used to be the islamic state of iraq, al qaeda in iraq, the zarqawi network, it's all the same thing. even back during 2005, 2006, 2007, their primary funding for the insurgency was and continues to be today through local rides crime, kidnapping for ransom. extortion, political corruption, et cetera. whereas we have tools to deal with major donors in the gulf we have tools even if we decide to implement

them to deal with the oil that they are siphoning off and smuggling across the border. we don't have tools to deal with their crime at home because we don't have boots on the ground. >> what was the reason for having such enormous ransom figure for instance for james foley? they wanted 130 million american dollars. and if they have got all this oil money coming. in they never got that kind of money from rans ransom. they were never going to get 130 million from any country. >> which is why some people don't think it was in the for the money at all. they know they have a no ransom policy anyway. all likelihood this was exaggerated figure because they didn't ever intend to ransom them off. >> the oil that they have sold on the black market. >> correct. >> any way to shut that down? because if it is selling for $105 a barrel. they are selling for $60 a barrel it's going to look pretty good. >> some of the other smugglers kurds and others selling $55 a barrel. selling as low as $40 a barrel. because turks in particular

pay so much for gas, there is supply and command, there is a market. if you can find someone who can get that oil, you will be able to find people to smuggle it and buy it in turkey. got it drive these trucks across the border. they have to be able to work with middle men in syria and turkey we have ways of targeting them. law enforcement, treasury designations and even a military capability if they are going across particular crossings with the trucks. >> you say there are ways to doing it why aren't we doing it or why r. we doing it f. we need to shut them down for the money. >> this is a political decision. the president had decided we were going to seriously tackle isis. secretary hagel says one of the things targeting money oil in particular. hopefully that will start. my concern is that we keep saying how we are going to do it only on the iraq side of the border and not so much on the syrian side of the border and that's like squeeze ago balloon. if we don't squeeze isis in iraq and syria, we are not going to get very far. >> matthew, thank you. >> always a pleasure. >> how do we fight this growing threat and can we win? that's next. [ music and whistling ]

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last december i was in the kurdish area of iraq. i was in irbeal, kirkuk that whole area. there was danger involved but they were excited because they thought they turned the corner and the country was starting to build up, the area. they loved americans and glad saddam was gone. within days or weeks, all of a sudden things completely changed. now kurdistan, that whole area that's where isis is. can we help the kurds?

>> well, it's not just a question of can we help the kurds but can the kurds help the world because many are of them are depending on others in the middle east to come together to fight isis. we need to support them, train them, arm them provide the intelligence as well as the air power to make sure that they are successful. >> so are the kurds the key to defeating isis, ollie? the isis took over fallujah in january. mosul in the summer, early summer. >> well, the kurds are key to northern iraq because the kurds are fighting for kurdistan. i mean, let's not kid ourselves here and we should be helping them. we should have helped them a long time ago. if you are talking about as many have said, squeezing the balloon and letting them all flee back into syria. the kurds are not going to fight that fight for us. unfortunately, the folks on the ground right now say it's going to take 6 to 12 months to train, equip, vet, and then send back into the field the so-called free syrian army. it's going to number 5,000 people. by the time they get back

from being trained in saudi arabia. you will probably have 45 to 50,000 isis fighters. you have to fight a two front war. free syrian army against assad and against isis. it's a formula for disaster. >> with the numbers that ollie just named. 15,000 more than they have now of isis with 5,000 more iraqis trained or kurds to train. >> absolutely. one equation is that if you don't do some strategic action against isis now, in the next few weeks, isis is going to double. because this is going very fast. faster than before. there were 15,000, they doubled to 30,000 and they are not recruiting anymore. they are drafting people. you are going to see tenses of thousands of young men have to join isis in mosul and elsewhere. >> whenever you look at solutions to defeating isis, each thing you talk about is necessary but not sufficient. so you talk about, you know, arming the kurds, yes, that's one part of it that's coming out at one angle. come at them and their pockets hit them with their pockets. they are so rich. they can always grow and

grow and grow. you have to hit them in their cyber capability so they can't radicalize and recruit. long-term, look oat ideological threat. they keep evolving because ideology exists. we have to stop looking at reactionary type of solution. >> what's their motive to strike here now? >> why not? >> in the u.s.? no, i'm just asking. all this concentration in this part of the world. they say they want the caliphate. then we have got radicalized americans and terrorists here. >> if we pressure them, they will try to deter us. if you don't strike full fledge, they are going to do -- if we do they are going to order them to strike. >> if we do nothing? >> if we do nothing they will do nothing but they will continue in the middle east. if they continue in the middle east they will get to the situation we have a little sunni iran. >> be unstoppable. and the thing to do now is to u that air power to go after high value targets and logistics support bases, their training centers in iraq and elsewhere. >> and their money?

>> yes. but you don't use airplane for that the problem with air power alone and that's all we have got right now. no one ever captured a piece of ground, terrorist or set a prisoner free with air power alone. it takes tough men with rifles on the ground. >> imagine it as a pool some people around the pool have to go in. some should not go in. regime should not go in. iran should not go in, they will make it to sectarian. everybody else is important. kurds in iraq, kurds in syria under some conditions but also the sunni moderate in both countries. >> ollie, where are we going to train these fighters. >> theoretically trained in syria. that means we have to get them out of syria into perhaps turkey or jordan, fly them down to saudi arabia. put u.s. special forces on the ground down there and train them somewhere between 6 and 12 months after they have been vetted. mission impossible. >> ollie, lisa, walid, thank you very much. and thank you for joining us tonight. if you want it know more about isis and how the u.s. is planning to defeat them,

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