that -- they appreciate what you did for our country. >> i know. i know. >> and they want to make sure you're okay. >> i'm okay. i'm going to be okay. >> i know. >> i'm going to be okay, good evening everyone. i'm martha mckalum in for megyn kelly. president obama stepped to the white house with a bombshell, if the new congress did not deliver a new immigration bill in the next six to seven weeks, he would act on his own. >> in terms of immigration, i have consistently said that it is my profound preference and interest to see congress act on a comprehensive immigration reform bill. if they want to get a bill done, whether it's during the lame duck or next year, i'm eager to see what they have to offer.

but what i'm not going to do is just wait. >> while this political issue has come to a head for president obama, the showdown on immigration has been coming for years. in 1990 there were 3 million illegal immigrants living in the united states. today that number's estimated at more than 11 million. but it has not been for lack of effort in this story. starting under president bush in 2005 dhs began expedited deportations. a practice that continued under president obama. but still they continue to come in record numbers. president bush got both the house and the senate to pass immigration reform in 2007. but they couldn't come up with a joint bill. and the anger grew. 2007 an immigration protest turned deadly. hundreds of people were hurt including two dozen police officers and mayday immigration marches then spread across the country. in 2012 border agent brian terry

was gunned down by cartels. the third border agent killed on duty in as many years. the terry murder would turn into a big scandal for the doj, but it also enflamed people who were worried about border security. among them arizona lawmakers who passed fb 1070, a controversial law that allowed police to check on the immigration status during a stop or an arrest of an individual. the administration challenged that law and the resulting showdown between arizona governor jan brewer and president obama got personal and very tense at times. the supreme court ended upholding parts of the law and striking down others. for his part president obama promised immigration reform in the first year. in the head of the 2012 election he announced what became known as the dream act giving a break to families with ties to america. a change made by executive action without the approval of congress, which brings us to today.

and this new threat of more executive action. the president would not offer exact details of what he would involve in this, but chief white house correspondent ed henry did some digging and he filed this report. >> martha rk bottom line this could get awe awkward for the president. he's vowing to move ahead and move unilaterally saying he wants to work with republicans. the bottom line is that the president's acting in part as well because he's getting pressure from the left. he had democratic congressmen luis gutierrez had a news conference the day after the election blasting the white house charging they had sold out hispanics by not moving quicker. here's how the plan is coming together what the executive order might look like. it might affect up to 4 million of the 11 to 12 million illegal immigrants who are here by expanding work permits allowing them to stay in the country. the criteria would be built around a number of things including how long you've been

in the country, one proposal is if you've been here at least ten years illegally you could get one of these work permits. another proposal would expand it as well. if you're married to a u.s. citizen. the other thing they're looking at and this is why it could swell is expanding the dreamer situation from 2012 whereas you get a work permit if you were the child of an illegal immigrant and you came in you would all of a sudden, you know, get a work permit and stay here. the white house says the real reason is not politics it's because republicans like mitch mcconnell have consistently blocked comprehensive reform. they saw his news conference this week where he talked a big game about working together. this is a great chance to put up or shut up. any executive order the president issues could be overridden if the republicans who now have the house and senate simply pass legislation, override that executive order. republicans have consistently -- and republicans have consistently said they want to see border security first

instead of worrying about all these other issues. and the timing of all this republicans say is very interesting because the white house says they'll move forward on the executive order probably in mid-december. what is that? that's right after the december 6th runoff involving mary landrieu in louisiana. they do not want to have this executive order before that runoff. >> the estimated 10 to 11 million illegals living in the united states roughly 1.5 million or 15% are believed to be residing in the state of texas. that's in part because texas represents roughly half of our 2,000-mile border with mexico. when the big surge of illegal immigrants started arriving this spring, texas apprehended people at a rate of more than 6,500 people a week. so governor perry back then took action. he deployed 1,000 national guard troops to help secure the border. apprehensions were then caught by almost two-thirds. so that plan worked for him at the time. but now the new governor has to brace for whatever fallout comes

from becoming events in washington. joining us now texas governor-elect abbott and also former attorney general of texas and a manuel-versed. congratulations on your election, sir. >> thank you so much, martha. >> thank you so much for being here. this is going to be on your plate in a very big way as you take office as governor of texas. you sided with governor perry dealt with it. do you expect you're going to see a new surge of illegals trying to cross that border as the president considers executive action? >> martha, for one we are concerned in part because of the potential action the president may take. but martha, remember this, that is the border surge that all the national cameras showed earlier this year, that is nothing that is new in the state of texas. we've had people crossing the border for years. and we've been involved in these sporadic surge operations by the texas department of public

safety to staunch the flow of cross-border activity. necessitating texas open up its checkbook and pay for this. what we are expecting the federal government to do is to, for one, the president not to open the flood gates of the border. but two, for the federal government to pay for the cost that texas has incured sgr governor perry talked about not having a heart if you don't understand the plight of families separated across this border and people who've been here for a very long time, children who were brought across the border under the age of 16. and he has had some sympathy for some of these situations. do you share those sympathies? >> well, martha, we share the sympathies. martha, my family is multicultural. my wife is hispanic. and as part of one of the things that was shown in this election even though my wife is going to be the first hispanic first lady in the history of the state of texas, we found the hispanic community in texas agrees with the republican position of securing the border because i

got more than 50% of vote, about 44% of the overall hispanic vote. this is an issue that really resonates across the state of texas. we embrace and support legal immigration in this country. but everyone wants to ensure that the broken immigration system caused by washington, d.c. gets fixed. >> all right. so there's a lot of talk on compromise. the president has said he will take executive action before the end of the year, most likely. he said quite clearly that he will do whatever's within his legal power to see this issue through because he feels congress has dropped the ball. what are you expecting from the white house? >> well, martha, most importantly we're expecting the white house not to cross the line. there was a mandate that occurred on election night this year. it was a mandate that the american people are sick and tired of the president using executive orders to dictate a pathway inconsistent with america's values. and if the president crosses the line he's going to see an

overwhelming rejection of what he's trying to do. and so he better not overstep his authority. if he does, for one, of course we'll be involved with another lawsuit against him. but for another, you can expect quite a strong pushback. the right way to go about this -- >> go ahead. what form would that take? you know, it does look the president will do some form of amnesty for some families that have family members across the border already. what will you do in response? >> well, for one, we will add yet another lawsuit against the obama administration. two, i fully expect both the house and senate to push back strongly once the new senate is sworn-in. and they will correct whatever overreach the president has done. but three, this is going to lead to a tremendous backlash across all americans about the dictatorial way the president is going about policy in the united states of america. >> i guess what i'm getting at

is is there middle ground for you? is there compromise with the president for you and what does it look like? >> the answer is absolutely yes, what texans believe in and what i think america believes in is there is a step by step process that we can achieve immigration reform. the first step is to secure the border. as long as we have an open border, as long as immigration laws are not enforced, as long as the president is inviting people to come here illegally, we will never see a secure border. so we must start with securing the border. >> close the border first and negotiate from there. greg abbott, thank you very much. good to have you with us today. >> thank you so much. >> many thanks. so when residents of central and south america heard rumors that the united states would grant amnesty to illegals, tens of thousands of them started surging across the southern border. so will this happen now that this debate is back? we're going to further investigate that question coming up tonight. plus, while the president has won support of millions of

latinos and republicans want to win some of them back, the issue is about a lot more than politics here. up next, new worries about what may happen if this constitutional crisis goes badly. >> the rate at which executive power's being concentrated in our system is accelerating. and frankly i am very alarmed by the

step away! [ gunfire ] >> get those things out of your mouth! get them out! >> remember that? that scene played out in may of 2007 in what's been known as mcarthur park melee. a massive protest and things got very out of control and the lapd moved in. when it was done more than 250 people were injured including almost two dozen of those police officers. the l.a. police chief followed years before and since this immigration debate has been very charged with lots of emotion in this country. and after the president this week said that he was now going to act on his own, a group of senators sent a letter saying that they were alarmed by that. they pointed out "the supreme court has recognized that "over no conceivable subject is the

power of congress more complete than its power over immigration." that sets us up for a big confrontation here. joining us to talk about what congress might do, chris stirewalt and chuck, serves on the executive board of the congressional hispanic caucus and founder and president of solidarity vstrategies excuse m. when you take a look at what the president can and will do and what congress can and will do, how does it look? skbl well, the president's put himself in quite a bit of a bind because he's made some very lavish promises to the latino community. you heard the kinds of numbers that have been bandied about. 4 million this, 5 million that. unfortunately for the president his lame duck status has intensified dramatically following the midterm election. and now his party's thinking very much about 2016, they're thinking about hillary clinton. they're thinking about how they're going to get back the senate and maybe make the house competitive again. and it would be very

complicating for them if they do that. he's cross pressured from within his own party. from activists he made lavish promises to but democrats thinking about winning election in 2016. that's a tough spot. >> word is on some sides that he sold out hispanics, that he made a lot of promises as you point out, that he hasn't kept pace with. and there are democratic members of congress who feel very strongly that that's the case. i mean, the question is, i guess, how angry the president is at the current state of affairs and how much he's willing to sort of smooth those issues over in an attempt to put that behind him? >> well, the timing of this sort of tactical nuclear strike will say a lot about what the president wants to do. if he wants to save face and fulfill an obligation he made to campaign supporters, he'll do something smaller and sooner. he will say this is my good faith gesture. now i'm going to try to work with republicans in congress to make something happen. if, however, he's really looking

for sort of to avenge the midterms, if he's looking to continue to break the republican party as he did for most of his first six years, then he will wait to the very end, he'll wait until after christmas and he'll start the new congress. he'll start the new senate republican controlled with millions having been granted temporary amnesty and real outrage. and we'll see a lot in the weeks to come about what kind of guy barack obama really is. >> chris, thank you so much. >> you bet. >> let's go to chuck who joins us now as well. chuck, as you look at this landscape, lots of political motivations on both sides. and lots of illegal immigrants in this country and people who would like to be reconnected with their families and would like the kind of amnesty that the president may be holding out for them. hope that this is going to go their way. how do you see it shaking out? >> well, my good friend chris stirewalt is right again. and probably that's why he's my good friend is it's about politics. it's about 2016 and looking forward. there's nothing going to come out of this republican house or

senate that is good for latinos. and they're not going to pass an immigration bill. if they were wise, they would pass something and they would talk about how they've passed something and could be a border security bill because they need to do something. they need to do something looking forward for 2016 and the map is not in their favor in the senate races. the latino community was very upset. and polling that came out post election shows that there was a five to seven-point dip in latino participation in support of democrats. and it was based around the president's broken promises. >> how do you know that though? you say it was based around the president's broken promise. but as chris stirewalt just pointed out, hispanics don't vote in a monolithic way. they have interests just like any other group. they ha they are concerned about what's going on. you make a very broad generalization assuming this is for many people and it may not be. >> we don't want to make that

generalization. so we talk to 4,000 latinos on election day to ask them what was most important to them. and immigration trumped jobs and economy by an average of 8%. i'm not talking 200 or 300 latinos, 4,000 latinos in just ten states where they had elections. i think it was a direct repercussion of what the president did. >> what did they say they would like to see? i mean, there's all different sorts of, you know, many parts of the rainbow with this issue. border security, is that an idea that you are open to to have border security before you start to open the gate for the discussions about further compromise on immigration? for those who are already here? >> i run campaign, i was curious to know as well. i was born here. my father was born here. my grandfather came here as an immigrant, like lots of americans did. i think what the latino community wants to see is not a demagogue, there's a lot of colors of the rainbow like you said and we asked the survey ifs they knew somebody that was

undocumented and 62% of the people we talked to said they did. i think there's a right way to talk without being demagogued. >> chuck, thank you very much. lots to be said about this. and more to come. thank you very much for being here. so when tens of thousands of illegals started to surge the southern border over the summer, it got the attention of the whole nation. and it overwhelmed the detention centers there. we all remember the images that we saw, children in paper blankets on the floors. and when dhs started sending them to different states around the country, things got ugly in some places as well. so what will happen now? will this debate that's going on right now lead many to start a new surge to get in before the situation changes? could there be a new showdown at the border? we're going to investigate straight ahead. >> these guys, are they scouts for the cartels? >> yes. >> yes. they're esurwhich means fewer costs, which saves money. their customer experience is virtually paperless,

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. i believe we are now in a constitutional tipping point in our system. it's a dangerous point for our system to be in. and i believe that your response has to begin before this president leaves office. >> that was law professor jonathan turley, a self-described liberal. you saw him saying america was approaching a constitutional crisis he believes as the president expands actions like the one he is threatening on immigration. but the president's supporters dismiss that. the new report this week characterizes this as a "counterattack" arguing the president has the prosecutorial discretion to enforce laws which he chooses in order to best use our resources. so let's sort this out. joining me now, andy mccarthy,

former federal prosecutor and contributing editor at the national review. an di, good to see you again. welcome. >> thanks, martha. good to see you. >> sort this out for us. where is the constitution on this? the president has said quite clearly when he spoke right after the election that he would do whatever he could within the law, he said. >> well, he does have enormous power under the law. as far as prosecutorial discretion is concerned, i think the new republic has it wrong. prosecutorial discretion is just -- it should be an unremarkable resource allocation doctrine that basically means you can't prosecute every single crime nor would we want to live in a society where that happened. so you have to take your finite resources and apply it to the most serious crimes. the president doesn't use prosecutorial discretion for that purpose. he uses it in a policy-related manner to basically counterman or contradict the laws congress enacts. and he's got a constitutional

obligation to execute those laws faithfully. so it's really not a proper prosecutorial discretion but there's also one there's not much congress can do about it short of impeachment. >> it's fascinating. he's said he's been blocked and blocked and blocked by the recalcitrant in his opinion house gop who has put over 300 bills on harry reid's desk that never got moved through this process. go ahead. >> yep. i was going to say that a complete perversion of what his job is. his job is to execute the laws that congress passes. it's not to, you know, stamp his feet and demand until they pass the laws that he wants. i mean, he can do that. and politically he can certainly pressure them. but his job is to execute the laws, not to make them. >> all right. so once he puts in an executive order, legally what happens then? how long can that order stand? what does the constitution provide where that's concerned? >> well, executive orders are proper in their place.

so that for example the president is the head of the executive branch, so if he gives a directive that simply orders his subordinates to carry out their legitimate authority in a particular way, that's fine. and it can last forever. if on the other hand he uses an executive order as a pretext to do what the constitution doesn't allow him to do, namely enact legislation without calling it legislation, that's completely improper. and congress needs to take steps if it can to try to counterman that. power of the purse to do that and a variety of other things. >> he's a constitutional attorney who taught constitutional law, so clearly he believes he is on solid ground in all of this. but we'll see what happens when it comes to the showdown over the decisions that he makes. andy mccarthy, thank you very much. good to have you with us tonight. so when arizona governor jan brewer tried to crack down on the illegal immigrants in her state of arizona, the president and the feds pushed back very

hard against what she was trying to input in her state. here's a look at that famous moment. before it was said and done the battle in arizona got very intense and became very personal. just ahead we're going to look at what to expect from states and average americans in this latest showdown coming over the border. >> today is a day when the key components of our efforts to protect the citizens of arizona to take up the fight against illegal immigration in a balanced and constitutional way has unanimously been vindicated by the highest court in the land. if you're suffering from constipation or irregularity, powders may take days to work. for gentle overnight relief, try dulcolax laxative tablets.

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get back! >> get back! >> that was back in july. this video coming from marietta, california earlier this year in the summer. what a hot scene that was back then hundreds of local residents stood in the streets and turned away bus loads of illegal immigrants headed to a border station in their town. the mayor urged the protest after learning dhs has planned to relocate some of the illegals who overwhelmed a detention center in texas. some ended in warehouses like these. remember these pictures? cameras were banned in many cases. reporters were not allowed in to document what was going on there. activists managed to sneak out this video though. and trace gallagher reports on where that situation stands today. >> let's begin by comparing the latest numbers of immigrants crossing the border illegally. last year some 38,000 unaccompanied children illegally crossed our southern bortder. so far this year more than 68,000. last year more than 14,000 families crossed illegally.

this year it's 68,000-plus and counting. but the story has fallen out of the headlines because in recent months the flow has dramatically decreased. experts say that's primarily for three reasons, one, summer heat. the trip can take weeks and it's simply too dangerous to cross deserts in triple digit temperatures. two, pressure by lawmakers and governor perry. and mexico has started cracking u>>t:a'dapt9sska] from northern triangle, guatemala, honduras and el salvador. homeland securityv@ho> the poverty, the violence is still there. much of illegal migration is seasonal, it peaks in the early summer. need to be mindful our economy is improving. and so we're determined to do

more for border security. >> and the border patrol has said that many who show up believe they'll be allowed to stay. and for the most part they're right because the law says each child from central america has to go through the legal process chrks will take at least a year for the minors ho show up to court. and because immigration courts are more backlogged than they've been in 20 years, the undocumented minors who don't show up to court likely will not be readily tracked down. >> when the surge started this summer, a number headed to the borders to document what happened there including filmmaker dennis michael lynch. he took on in the 2012 documentary "they come to america." he took his camera back to the border recently where just last month he was out documenting just how easy it is to cross.

as easy as that. joining us now dennis michael lynch. dennis, do you believe that we will see a new surge of immigrants coming across the border as a result of this struggle now playing out in washington? >> of course, martha. first of all, the surge hasn't stopped. they still come in. i mean, they're coming in as you and i speak right now. the surge though now that he has said the word amnesty or, you know, referred to amnesty, it's going to start to take off. and the border patrol agents who i speak to they are petrified because they're already overwhelmed. and now with the new surge coming in they can't defend the border. they can't defend the border, we know we have things like ebola coming through, right? that's about to come. we know that we have terror coming through. so if they are preoccupied with changing diapers, which is what they do, we are extremely exposed as a nation. >> so the president has played down that saying it was a one-time issue we saw last summer. it had a number of factors that

played into it. but he doesn't believe what you're saying that social security an ongoing situation. we all remember jan brewer trying to get the president to come to the border to see for himself. i don't think it looks like there's any hope of that, is there? >> martha, i've been saying this for a year. i believe that this is part of his legacy. and he knows it. i think he purposely wants the surge to come. is called the perfect storm. it's when the obamacare businessmbusines business mandate collides with amnesty. business will kick in in january, when that hits the unbelievable blow to the american worker is going to be earth shattering. he knows all of this. he knows that the border is wide open. he tries to make it sound as if it's one sliver in texas. meanwhile you just showed arizona. i know that border as well as anybody does. people are coming through at will. it's not about census, martha. it's very important. nobody ever says the right thing about this. the way to stop this problem starts and ends with removing

the incentive for people to come here illegally. so until you remove the job market, the magnet for these people, until you stop saying the word amnesty, they're going to continue to flow in. >> and you believe amnesty is what he wants to be part of his legacy. obviously the president's had a very tough week. this election was not good for the administration no matter what signal they may be gleaming from it or what excuses they may be giving for what happened on tuesday. the results are very clear, right? >> i think people don't understand this man. he is very smart. he's very intelligent. i think he understands that obamacare could be repealed in some way. you can't repeal 30 million to 40 million people. we don't have 11 million people in this country. if he gives them an amnesty, the only way to undo that is if the next president is brave enough to override that amnesty. and i don't hear anybody saying that. so if that doesn't happen, if we

don't get the right president in place, you're going to turn around having 30 million to 40 million people having paperwork to where they compete with american workers. you can't reverse people. >> dennis, thank you very much. >> thank you, martha. >> good to have you with us tonight. all right. so joining me now is michael wiels, former federal prosecutor and former mayor of englewood, nj new jersey with his thoughts this. your take is slightly different on all of this. tell us. >> well, this is the greatest experiment in democracy. and people will always want to come. president reagan had the audacity to call it an amnesty and nearly 30 years ago we haven't had any immigration reform. we've had band-aids put literally on problems rather than treating this properly. we have such a political system. a haitian can be -- but a cuban can get a green card if they hit dry land. and we have a homeland that is vulnerable. i don't think there's an immigration lawyer or an

individual with a pulse in this country that wants to have a porous border. we are a system, a nation of laws. and we have yet 11 million-plus people unidentified in our nation. martha, we do not have enough handcuffs, airplanes, beds to detain and the inclination to remove these individuals. and many of them are giving moneys into our treasure, they're buying our orange juice, and they are the greatest risk takers and entrepreneurs that we have historically known. so people can get frightened like the guest you had on and frighten viewers about this thing. but from my perspective, look, i'm a second generation immigration lawyer. my dad got john lennon a green card and a scholarship in the jurisprudence of whole deferred action, the prosecutorial discretion that the president will rest his head on evolved out of the lennon case. we want john lennons in this country. we bring the most fascinating stylist, photographers and talents here and they then employ americans.

>> all people want is for people to come here legally, to go through the process to come here legally to not pour in over the border, threaten properties on the other side of the border. i think it's easy to say that from where you're sitting, but you're not living in the area where these people are being threatened and where they feel like nobody's listening to them. >> i felt this as a mayor because the resources, and, yes, it looks like americans are going to be marginalized while foreigners come here. but you have to look at it differently. these are individuals that are doing work and will enfranchise greater employment. >> i understand what you're saying. but what do you suggest? you want an expanded worker program? that's what the president is calling for it would appear. >> no, martha, i want a comprehensive reform -- >> including border security. >> so we're not chasing this. the whole argument we fix the borders first and fix the problem here. we cannot afford to have 10 million-plus people without an identity of who they are. we need -- you know, we are

the -- of the world. canada, australia, they have point systems. >> there are many in the world that don't let anybody into their borders. you know, that think we are the laughing stock of the world for specifically that reason because we don't seem to have a border at all. >> we need to have a border. i agree with everybody that a border is way too porous. again, i used to deport people with the u.s. attorneys office. we want the bad guys out and orderly system to have the good guys in. but we cannot scare people. and there isn't a person watching this who isn't an immigrant themselves unless you're an american-indian. and if you appreciate that national heritage, you're going to look at immigration as a great tool. >> but it's a question of legal versus illegal immigration. of course everybody came from somewhere else. everybody did except for the native americans as you point out. but you're talking about legal versus illegal immigration. >> right now i agree with you. we need to set up a legal system. what are we going to do with the people that are here? and what kind of legal system

are we going to put in? are we going to do something like president reagan did? last time reform he -- we have a new normal right now. we have to make sure we pay this forward so that we're not chasing this argument 30 years from now. we need to set up an orderly system. and, yes, that means our leaders, democrats and republicans who are now given new trusts have to make sure they govern properly and fix new laws in the system. and yes recognize we may have to give status to people that are here. >> thank you. we got to leave it there. good to have you tonight. thanks. all right. so if the immigration fight plays out in washington, you are also going to see it start being in the 2016 presidential campaign discussion as well no doubt. president obama and the democrats were able to win the hearts of latinos in 2008. and again in 2012. but is that trend holding? some interesting new data on that next. stick around.

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[ inaudible ] yes, we can became the chant for millions of latino voters on the campaign trail in 2008 and again in 2012. hispanics represent 8% to 10% of the electorate. more than 60% of them went for the president's party in the 2012 presidential and 2014 midterms. but republicans in states like colorado and texas got a lot of latino support despite their fairly conservative immigration policies in those states. what does this mean as we look ahead to 2016 and this issue for democrats and republicans?

steve hayes, fox news contributor, welcome. good to have you here tonight. >> hi, martha. >> how does this play out? typically hispanics have generally voted with democrats, but there were some signs in this midterm election that that dynamic may be changing. >> yeah, there certainly were. greg abbott did real well with hispanics in texas as you point out. in colorado there were gains made by republicans. i think if republicans talk about immigration in a straightforward, clear and common sense way, they can have it both ways. they can appeal to the republican faith that's skeptical of broad-based immigration reform or that would include amnesty. and they can also appeal to hispanic voters by conveying a sense of fairness >> there are those in the republican party on a more conservative side who wanted to say no who say that anyone who takes this as an indication that americans are okay with amnesty will pay for it come 2016.

>> yeah. i think there are a number of different ways to address that. and i think the first thing that republicans have to do is not be afraid to talk about the issue. you've got republicans now controlling the senate and house of representatives. i think if republicans came in and said, for instance, we want to offer a series of sequential votes in the senate, up or down, no amendments, on five issues. let's say e-verify for one, internal enforcement measures for a second, fence and border technology for a third, expanded legal immigration for a fourth. and then a fifth vote that would be conditional on the successful implementation of the first four. say two years down the road that would give some kind of a path to legal status. people can argue about what exactly that will mean if the first enforcement measures are satisfied. i think that's a way republicans can handle it. it would be straightforward, it would be clear. and i think it would put the pressure on the democrats and the president could potentially divide that party instead.

>> this is an issue the parties have used against each other politically. is there any reason to believe that they won't do that anymore? that they will come together on it and kind of cross this off the list and find some common ground? >> no, i don't think so. i think president obama with his continued threats for executive action, i think he thinks this is a clever way to put the onus back on the republicans. i think it ends up backfiring on him honestly. if you're looking at this from the perspective of a republican, you can make both a substantive argument against what the president is doing if in fact it's the kind of amnesty we think it might be. but you can also make a legal process, he isn't a sort of com sense approach. >> fascinating debate to watch. steve, thank you very much. good to talk to you. >> thanks, martha.

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helped organize the minutemen is now activating some 3500 volunteers between san diego and brownsville, texas. he's calling his new push operation normandy named after the invasion of normandy in world war ii. but instead of invading, the hope here is to stop the invasion of what he calls the wave of illegal immigrants. and unlike u.s. forces in normandy, france, this effort will not be a surprise. operation normandy is being well-publicized and set to begin on may 1st of next year. the vo l untiers are already said to be setting up camps and training though they wouldn't allow themselves to be videotaped. they will be armed, but the plan is for them to be nonaggressive, to simply support federal agents who are already patrolling the border. and while federal authorities say they appreciate the efforts of this new militia, they do not endorse the group saying, quoting, customs and border protection does not endorse any

private group or organization from taking matters into their own hands as it could have disastrous personal and public safety consequences. the southern poverty law center which bills itself as a civil rights law firm takes a much firmer stance against the militia calling them a hate group and condemning their plan. but jim gill chris says someone has to step up and do what the government has refused to do saying "our federal, state and community governments have failed to address and fix this calamity. it is once again time to bring unprecedented national awareness to this decades long illegal alien crisis." so far this year nearly 130,000 unaccompanied minors and families have crossed our southern border illegally. martha. >> and we will be right back.

i'm chris wallace. breaking today. two americans held captive in north korea return to the u.s. with this country's top spy. plus, with control of both houses of congress, are republicans headed for compromise with president obama or confrontation? >> we are heading to washington. and we are going to make them squeal! >> we have swept this nation with a compelling senate majority. >> tonight we shook up the senate. you shook up the senate. >> we'll talk with two republi