average, great thing. >> thank you to you all. and david is next. extraordinary executive orders to help illegals, but how about some extraordinary effort to help us legals, as in legal taxpayers? new reports showing the government wasting $2.4 billion in improper payments to food stamp recipients this year alone and $78 billion more in several other federal benefit plans. that's why some here say the white house should be focusing more on reforming welfare programs instead of immigration policies. are they right? hi, everybody. i'm david ascan. welcome to "forbes on fox." i'm here along with my panel.

mike, how about us legals? >> david, america has truly become the land of the free. thanks to these huge welfare payments. if you look at 2011, the last year for which there are results available, the bottom three quintiles paid no federal income taxes thanks to tremendous welfare payments received, all taxes paid by the top two quintiles. >> and the way welfare spending increased from 2008 until now. 48% increase in a lot of these new illegal immigrants, now will be able to receive some of this welfare. >> we don't know that that's true yet. we already do know therapy not going to be allowed to participate in obamacare programs, but we'll see. we'll see if you turn out to be right's you could. we can all get behind the idea of cleaning up waste in government no matter where it is. with you all the way. ya i don't what i don't understand wipe the question only focuses on welfare, it should, where is the issue when it comes to defense where we've got way more waste in spending

in defense than we do on the social side? >> there is waste all over. no doubt. right on that, but steve the fact is, if e are going to allow millions are more immigrants to be eligible conceivably tore welfare benefits we have to fix the system. it's broken. >> it's a way broken and so many ways, david and trying to root out all of the waste, the bureaucrats know they're outlast those supposedly who rule them today. cabinet offices come and go, agency heads come and go. it's very tough to do. if they're serious about it, they can do newspapererous little things, study grants. why do we need to study the sex life of kocockroaches? add the junk up, save real money. >> sabrina, for people who need it, obviously ronald reagan believed in a safety net. clearly, there is a lot of fraud going on. people are taking advantage of the system. and until we start doling out millions and millions of more to all of the legals who now wi-- illegaling who will become legal

beav got to fix it. >> for so many reasons. spending billions on the food assistance program and eroding self-reliance. people want to see the entitle programs here a long time. especially women. social security, medicare, medicaid, want the programs. if we don't rein in other spending and get a handle op the fraud these programs won't be here for the long term to help those people. >> and emac, spell it out. improper food stamp payments, i call it fraud, $2.4 billion. one year alone. improper payments for medicare and medicaid, of course, a lot of new medicaid people because of obamacare. look at this. the numbers are staggering. >> doesn't count the $1.5 trillion estimated of the empty federal, our new federal office buildings. guess what? d.c. went on real estate boom of their own. look out the window, think everything looks great but middle america is hurting. whenever people in washington,

d.c. take the moral high ground, self-righteousness, jim michaels, former editor of forbes talks about, hold on. i want to see, cut the waste first before you raise taxes. any time. cut taxes, actually. what's the executive order on that? >> and a lot of people improperly say reagan did executive action when he just signed a bill, simpson masoli, on immigration signed by both houses of congress, but he did take a lot of executive action on things like cutting welfare policies out of control and look what clinton did. worked with congress to cut welfare also. >> newt gingrich helped use the power of the purse with the republican congress. i agree with rick that there is wasteful spending in the military and other area, but i think what's unique to welfare is that the way it's set up now in the tax code, it punishing work. that's one of the reasons why we've had the worst economic

recovery since the '30s. we keep extending unemployment benefits and so forth. punishing workers and when you punish something you get less of it. >> rick? >> i've got to challenge you a little david. it is absolutely true president reagan signed the bill you refer to. >> simpson-masoli, '76. >> later issued about executive order something he missed and wanted to correct t. extended it for children, after congress passed that. let's not focus on the detailings of the immigration. focus on welfare. >> saying he did -- >> not saying it was after congress. both houses, passed simpl simpson-masoli, the will of congress to push that through and extended it further. atrate, on welfare, on welfare. >> what's the question? >> whether mike is right. are we punishing workers now and have to change that system? that's a perverse incentive. >> you know that i am absolutely onboard the idea of looking cloegser at the welfare system. if it were me, i'd be spending

more time and money looking at welfare cheats pup go to any welfare office, unemployment office, you see who really needs and it who is scamming the system. >> maybe put rick in charge. >> yeah. yeah! >> what do you think, steve? >> it's been done -- it's been done before, david when julie ya giuliani became mayor in the 1990s. 1.1 million recipients. today it'se 350,000. a lot was were fraud. they cut it. >> i'm sure rick unger was supporting president clinton when he went along with congress and did the welfare reforms. overall question, sabrina, priorities. why is that priority now for illegal immigrants when we've go got to straighten out our system before we let all of these people in legally? >> get our durks in the row before we let more people into the country. i'm not sure we have the luxury

to take care of one before the other. it's important washington look at the stakes. look what happened to california. i am a california girl originally. we had an incredible workers' compensation system there rife with fraud. it has drained the state, has been a disaster. and now they are doing the right thing trying to tighten the reins, trying to rein this thing in, but it's unwieldy, very difficult. you're right in many ways, we do need to take care of this before we deal with anything else. >> and i don't want to make too many generalizations here but there are generally two kinds of immigrants that come into the united states. one, unfortunately, a group comes in to take advantage of our welfare spending. whether pregnant mothers or w m whomever. another specifically to work. if we're letting immigrants in, focus on those who want to work not take welfare. >> the president is not increasing the visa for the skilled workers. invented by, created by immigrants. 43%. came here legally. >> and temporary, not the

high-tech but used to have a program by the way that let temporary workers come in to work and go home. >> the back drop, 2 million fewer full-time jobs than in 2007. we need those full time jobs to pay for the benefits. by the way, speaking to mike ozanian's point, adjust for the government benefits that go out to people, the top bracket pays just seven times, actually the income is just seven times of that lower brack the. it's not 15 times. and by the way, they pay 30, 40 times in taxes. >> stephve, worked great, 1940s '50s, '60s, unions killed it, said it was bringing down salaries. killed off this program. maybe go back to that? april lew workers in temporarily and then go home? >> the way to go, david, for guest workers, not only in agriculture but in construction and other areas. >> and guaranteed -- forgive me for interrupts, in to work not take welfare. >> and you have fewer illegals

prelys prelysle, they know if they come home, they can come back a specific period of time to work. cutting it in half overnight. >> last word from steve. >> not a surge in welfare. cashing in on what else happens seeing a surge across our borders thanks to the president's new order. first, republicans promising to roll bag obamacare what if we told you the biggest obstacle the no democrats in congress, crony capitalists and health inshure surers. daughter: do you and mom still have money with that broker? dad: yeah, 20 something years now. thinking about what you want to do with your money? daughter: looking at options. what do you guys pay in fees? dad: i don't know exactly. daughter: if you're not happy do they have to pay you back? dad: it doesn't really work that way. daughter: you sure? vo: are you asking enough questions about the way your wealth is managed? wealth management at charles schwab.

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just training afghan forces in 2015. and we are awaiting the grand jury decision in ferguson, missouri. the panel is deciding whether to indict officer darren wilson in the shooting death of unarmed teenager michael brown. activists, authorities and the family of michael brown are all calling for calm. it is not clear if the panel is still at work or when it would make its decision. but it could come any day. i'm kelly wright. see you back here at 1:00 p.m. eastern time with jumy banderas for a brand new hour of news. now back to "forbes on fox." so who knew? the biggest supporters of obamacare not necessarily the liberal democrats but private insurance companies getting huge government subsidies. john, you say crony capitalism may be a bigger obstacle than gop hopes of dismantling than the liberals? >> absolutely. if you show me any government program i will show you special

interests that form around it in order to perpetuate it. the good news, obamacare is dying before our eyes but incumbent upon republicans to do everything possible to repeal as much of the law as possible, because the longer they wait, the more likely it's going to be that these special interests forms such that we can't repeal it down the line. >> americans don't like obamacare, rick, but don't particularly like insurance company, don't like crony capitalism. look how much these insurance company, getting from the government now. aetna, 40%, now represented by government, and 47% of wellpoint representing the government. that's huge. >> look, it's coming through the subsidies that go to people that go on the insurance companies. i have to tell you. >> subsidies meaning taxpayer subsidies? >> they are. i have to take issue with the question because it's not the insurance companies that are the biggest beneficiaries it is the people who are for the first

time in their lives knowing that they have health care if they get really sick. those are the beneficiaries, and those are the reason and the people that will keep this law from going away. >> steve, just in terms of raw numbers, the amount of money the insurance company, getting as opposed to the amount of money that the folks now getting insurance are getting is staggering. i mean, crony capitalists are, want the government, the government want taxpayers to pay more money into the system because they're pocketing it. >> it's all about crony inch and that's why one of the things the republican congress should doened a the next president do repeal the individual mandate and employer mandate, that goes away with the program. in terms of getting a safety net, do it in food with everything from food stamps to food banks. why in the world can't we do the same in health care and have real free enterprise? every time free markets are allowed to work, scarcity into abundance instead of the rationing we're getting now. >> emac, again, crony capitalism, always had it, but

getting worse in recent years with the bailouts and everything. now insurance companies, i think they're, they're a stronger block against reappealing obamacare than the liberal democrats. >> right. i love rick unger. the reality check bounced over there. listen, during obamacare talks, you have insurance companies, they saw that honey pot of government taxpayer paid for subsidies, right? also the drug companies as well, saw that honey pot of the taxpayer paid for subsidies and the talk was, i interviewed these guys, lids lizzy, if you don't have a seat at the table, you will be on the menu pap moo knoply on state exchanges, a few dozen according to insurers in each state now maybe only three. you have a monopoly you can raise prices at taxpayer expense. >> i saw john's hands getting ready. first to sabrina. go ahead. >> rick, i always like to try to have a reasonable voice but felt my heart start to pop out of my chest listening to you.

if we wanted to help people, steve said, all sorts of market-based solutions we could have done. has nothing to do with helping people. it has to do with a federal law that main daits we all have health insurance, meaning insurance companies have a built-in pool of customers they are providing it to and the federal government is sub decidesing it with our dollars. the most inefficient, corrupt system. i don't know how we can pretend there's nothing related to cronyism here. >> don't you love it, other than that, sabrina? >> tried to be reasonable, but -- >> john, saw your hand. go ahead. >> the obvious tragedy of this is in pulling in the insurance companies and drugmakers we are not strengthening them, we are weakening them. those close to government become worse off. the idea get insurance to people. the quickest way to ensure a lot of people don't have a way of getting health care or access to insurance is put these companies under the thumb of government. it's going to be lava and

consequences times it ten. >> rick, government working together with corporate, crony capitalists, the worst kind of monopoly there is i. just want to say, see if i can ge the reality check to clear here. i just want to say each and every one of you have made the argument for single payer health care. how do you like that. >> we have not. >> sorry. i have to step in here. >> hold on, hold on. rick that will not pass, because that is absolutely -- there's nothing worse than a pure government monopoly. that's the worst -- >> okay. >> bad enough. when you have the insurance company, working with the government. but a pure monopoly, come on. no competition at all in that i want to raise one question. i hear everybody talking about the individual mandate. i get you don't like it. when you can tell me how you can cover people with pre-existing conditions -- >> can i -- >> hold on. steve might have an answer. go ahead, steve. >> you can have a high-risk pools, but the states -- >> haven't done it. it didn't work. >> haven't done it right.

one, a buddens, free markets. and true insurance which is about long-term diseases, pre-existing conditions, and instead of trying to cover everything from first dollar to last. >> quick last word, sabrina? go ahead. >> we have to be very clear. we are not interested in making sure everyone has health insurance but everyone has the necessary health care that they need, and providing something to everyone, can't do it. steve is absolutely right. >> gang, thank you. coming up next, a new freedom index is out. guess what? the u.s. is not in the top ten. it's not even in the top 20. the reasons why may be more alarming than our rotten ranking. ameriprise asked people a simple question: in retirement, will you have enough money to live life on your terms? i sure hope so. with healthcare costs, who knows.

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uss 2340 longer the land of the free? the results of are in for the latest personal freedom survey. you won't believe how far the you won't believe how far the u.s. fell on that list, plus here's some news you may find surprising.

we're for an open internet for all. we're for creating more innovation and competition. we're for net neutrality protection. now, here's some news you may find even more surprising. we're comcast. the only isp legally bound by full net neutrality rules.

there is a brand new poll out showing americans of all stripes think the economic deck in this country is stacked against them. while wall street may be haeb, 56% of americans feel they are getting the short end of the stick. if that's not bad enough, the latest personal freedom indexes showing gt u.s. falling below countries like you're gaye, france, even malta. dropping five spots from last year. now down to number 21. steve, what the heck is going on? >> what's going on, david, people feeling things are out of control. can't trust the dollar. tax code more incomprehensible. no one understanding health care. irs on a rampage, not called to account. who knows who's listening to your phone calms. people feel they're not moving forward, aren't, real incomes are going down and don't see a chance to ge no wonder they're unhappy. >> and rick, i may sound like a

marxist for saying it, but they see all the rich guys getting benefits and most of the rest of us aren't. >> god, i hope we're tarping this show. i really do. >> we are. yeah. david, you are exactly right. of course that's true. look at wall street, that knows all the angles to make the big money. the regular guy doesn't get to know. i do want to say something about the freedom index. does anybody this possible that might have something to do with what we've learned about the nsa? i feel less free when i know i'm being spied on. >> economic policies. every branch of american, blue collar, white dollar, blaccolla branch, getting the short end of the stick, they feel? >> a great point. politicians trying to get elected pitting one group against another. taking something from one group and landing it to another. at the end of the day, nobody's happy. >> right. emac, that's the point.

frankly related to the elections we just had. >> a real wake-up call to the people in d.c. walking around in a nimbus cloud of narcissim down there. >> hold on. a nimbus cloud of narcissism? deserved repeating. >> when they feel big government can do it. the government is get bigger and people are more unhappy. >> and a time when even democrats understood that it was bill clinton after all who said the era of big government is over. i wish he was right apparently he wasn't. >> not so, but you know, economies are just individuals, and the so when they're free they do well. this survey just proves what we've long known. the economy is performing on a subpar level because freedom's gone down. ta simple. >> steve, can we get back to a consensus like with bill clinton that the era of big government should be over? >> certainly it's not earned high grades in recent years. discredited by actual events. i think in 2016, david's, going

to be like 1980 when ronald reagan became president. the country will take a new direction a lot of the junk rolled away. >> whether republican or democrat a time when both agreed, big government doesn't help. coming up some may be thankful for family and friends and turkey and stuffing this holiday, but our informers have the stocks that will make your wallet happy all year long. take a closer look at your fidelity green line and u'll see just how much it has to offer, especially if you're thinking of moving an old 401(k) to a fidelity ira. it gives you a widrange of investment options... and the free help you need to make sure your investments fit your goals -- and what you're really investing for. tap into the full power of your fidelity green line. call today and we'll make it easy to move that old 401(k) to a fidelity rollover ira.

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>> dominant for cell phones concerned they're not keeping up in innovation. >> be careful, folks. that's it for "forbes on fox." thanks for watching. have a wonderful thanksgiving. keep it rind here. the number one business block continues with eric bolling and "cashin' in." bring me your tired are, your poor, your illegal masses. the president going rogue on immigration. did he just open the floodgates for more illegals to come to america? and, disgusted with main stream media. ignoring the section used to pass obamacare. turning a blind eye and an explosive and revealing comment. then, is the white house doing business with a tax chief? al sharpton accused of not paying millions in taxes and the administration turning to him for advice on the country's next attorney general. how ironic is that? "cashin' in," exposing h hypocrisy, starts, right now. hi, everyone. i'm eric bolling. welcome to "cashin' i