those dogs are mirror with us live. >> and i might as well bring in my dog. >> because it's going to to be perfect weather. we'll have snow tomorrow. >> he loves the snow. >> bye, everybody. bill: good morning, everybody. more than 60 people have been arrested after a night of violence and sheer anarchy in mountain midwest. >> this is tear gas and it will clear the crowd. bill: no charges were darren wilson in the death of michael brown. good morning. there is a lot to go through. martha: i'm martha maccallum. after months of poring over the evidence, the st. louis county prosecutor announced the grand jury's decision a little after

9:00 p.m. eastern. listen to this. >> they determined no probable cause exists to file any charge against officer wilson and filed a no true bill on each of the five indictments. martha: mccollough spoke for 45 minutes. he details the evidence the jury considered. he said in the end the forensics did not match up with what some of the witnesses claimed they had seen. >> some witnesses admitted they didn't see the shooting or didn't see the shooting or were just repeating what they heard on the street and others adjusted their statements to fit the facts. others stood by their statements were discredited by the physical

evidence. bill: mike tobin running for cover as the gunshots and the tear gas rang out around him. [gunshots] >> cool out! martha: moments later president obama took to the briefing room. he called for calm, but look at the pictures at that moment. clearly the protesters were not hearing the president. >> what we need to do is understand them and figure out how do we make more progress. that can be done. that won't be done by throwing bottles, that won't be done by smashing car windows. that won't be done by using this as an excuse to vandalize property and it won't be done by hurting anybody. so to those in ferguson, there

are ways of channeling your concerns constructively and there are ways of channeling your concerns destructively. >> the president speaking for 9 minutes. mike tobin out all night. mike, you were in the crowds last night. what did you experience? >> reporter: it was pretty hectic. you talk about people channeling their concerns destructively. this is an example of the aftermath. this is one of the strip malls. nail salon. i don't know what anyone would have to gain by robbing the inside of a tax service. the restaurants, the laundromat. this an example of a beauty salon that was set fire last night. across the street, that's the mobile gas station that was

looted last night. you are looking south on to west florison after new. down there is where michael brown was shot. you see a lot of the smoke coming out from florison avenue. almost every business as we walked up the street had some kind of fire in it. it was either engulfed in flames or there was smoke poring out. what we didn't see was any fire crews. either it was too difficult for them to get in or they were overwhelmed with thing fires last night. martha: it's martha. taking a look at what you have been watching throughout the course of this evening and one of the questions that kept

coming up is where is the national guard. we heard so much about the preparation. the governor was criticized forward calling in the national guard ahead of this. but there presence wasn't felt from what we could see on television. >> reporter: a lot of them do rudimentary jobs freeing up the police officers to do the more aggressive things for which they were trained like the tactical operations. you will see the national guard in a backup role and the tactical teams out front. bill: darren wilson has spoken to a degree in the sense they put out his own testimony that was give to the grand jury. what's next for him? >> i imagine his priority is very far away from here.

he has a baby on the way with his new wife barbara. throughout this process those two have been expecting a child. he spent a lot of the process in this area trying to stay out of the public eye and trying to avoid any attention. but he has a lot going on, in addition to all of this they have a baby on the way. bill: martha? martha: darren wilson's side of the story has started to come out. prosecutors in missouri released his testimony to the grand jury as he said they would. he described in great detail his encounter from his side of the story when he met with michael brown on the street on that august day. he said brown looked up at him and had the most intense aggressive face, he looked like a demon, that's how angry he

looked. he came back towards me again with his hands up. there was a bruise seen on his face which was documented by the police which was 2 inches long. bill: for the family of michael brown, they released a statement saying we are profoundly disappointed that the killer of our child will not face the consequences. while we understand others share our pain, we ask that you channel your frustration in ways that make a positive change. martha: the protests spread far from ferguson. outside the white house the secret service turning on floodlights. we are told the protests

remained peaceful. in new york city protesters took to the streets shutting down times square. one protester threw blood in police chief bratton's face. report report up until a few hours ago demonstrations were taking place not far from where i am standing. thousands took the street after the announcement there would not be an indictment. demonstrators expressed their anger in union square, times square and harlem. they also marched on a couple of major bridges trying to shut them down. but in total there were only two arrests. many of those who took the streets were upset about the lack of an indictment.

on the minds of many was the shooting of a rookie police officer in the stairwell of and housing project. protesters say they felt let down by the justice system. >> a black man can be shot down like dogs. it's unbelievable. >> this is a catastrophe, it goes against everything as far as justice is concerned. it's a complete embarrassment to american justice. >> reporter: later today in the new york area and elsewhere more demonstrations are planned. martha: clearly there is a lot of people unhappy with the decision. there is an effort to make it about the larger issue. the prosecutor was clear, for him it was about the specific evidence that was presented to the grand jury. when you hear the people's voices it's clear they want it to be about something larger.

and that's where the rub is right now. >> you know that the violence happens at night. so why announce it when it gets dark last evening. the other question. there was a state. emergency put out 7-10 days ago. where was that force protection and all the buildings after building that we have seen flying rubble. martha: governor nixon was criticized for calling a state of emergency days ahead. it's shock they weren't able to stop everything that happened last night. bill: after the decision was announced the prosecutor releasing all the evidence the grand jury considered. you can right on the our website. did the grand jury do what it was supposed to do. the judge alex is here today. martha: secretary of defense chuck hagel is out. some sources say he was fired.

who is going to take over next at the pentagon. this will be the fourth secretary of defense under obama. bill: the investigation much the michael brown shooting is not over at the federal level. what is the justice department's role now. karl rove will analyze that. bars but i had to use so many sheets per spill the roll just disappeared. i knew i should've bought bounty bounty is 2x more absorbent and strong when wet. just look how much longer bounty lasts versus one of those bargain brand towels. and that's a good deal. bounty. the long lasting picker upper and now try new bounty nfl prints. available at walmart.

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the sun is up in ferguson and we are getting look at some of the damage it's a stunning sight. more 25 businesses destroyed in the fires and looting and images last night. we saw completely burned out businesses. 80 people arrested in ferguson and st. louis last night. a devastating scene on the ground. try to imagine your hometown. picture your main street with 25 businesses burned out. it's a sorry sight and a sad day for the folks in ferguson. >> the physical evidence does not change because of public pressure or personal agenda. physical evidence does not look away as events unfold nor does it block out or add to memory. physical evidence remains constant and as such is a solid

foundation upon which cases are built. bill: that was the st. louis county prosecutor's office releasing the testimony from the grand jury including from darren wilson. he said brown tried to overpower him and scuffled with him in the patrol car before warning him that he would shoot. what about the work of that grand jury. judge alex ferrar. do you believe in this case the grand jury did its job? >> it absolutely did its job. they come in, they serve their time, they don't get compensated for the hard work they do. grand jurors are used in a couple capacity. they decide if charges are to be filed. even in cases where a prosecutor

could bring charges on their own they often bring it to the grand jury as a safety net. they can conduct their own versus gaitiond. in this case they did conduct their own investigations in the sense they were presented all the evidence, not just what the prosecution would like to present. they got to question witnesses and at the end of the day of it didn't reach the standard of probable cause. it certainly was not going to reach proof beyond a reasonable doubt. bill: they heard from 60 different witnesses. is that normal? >> normally, no. normally the prosecution presents just its case. but prosecutors have an ethical obligation. they can't just bring every case to trial. they have an ethical case to trial that they believe can be prove. beyond every reasonable doubt

because you are putting a person's liberty in jeopardy. the prosecution believes they have can prove it before every reasonable doubt. they can only present the evidence it's going to present. i suspect the prosecutor no didn't want to come forward publicly but supported the officer's position and started seeing inconsistencies between witnesses we heard in the media and the physical evidence. i think the prosecutor determined i can't prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt. all those criticisms about me being a fair prosecutor because my father was killed by pane african-american man will surface. i think he brought it to the grand jury to say here is what i think, what do you think? bill: here is part of the testimony. this is officer wilson. when i grabbed him i felt like a

5-year-old holding hulk hogan. eric holder says he will go through his investigation as well. is he not interviewing the same witnesses who in all likelihood appeared before the grand jury. >> very, very unlikely that the feds bring charges in this case because the violation of civil rights will require even a harder burden of proof as to asian animus than thisd as toration -- as toratio as to ra. people who other wise would be afraid to come forward, come forward and give their testimony because it's conducted in secret. people think there is something going on behind the scenes. the fact that eric holder and the department of justice is

conduct a concurrent investigation. all the witnesses have been interviewed by the fbi in the department of justice so i know there is nothing going on behind the scenes. bill: why announce this at night? there was a 4-5-hour gap between when the grand jury came back its decision and when that decision was made public. >> i don't know. as a former police officer i would rather see people who are going to take shots at me in daylight. they had to harg -- they had toe resources. judge, thank you. alex ferrer. martha: that's the big question

everybody is asking last night and this morning. why would this decision announced late into the evening hours when the crowds had been waiting in the streets for a long time and tensions were rising. we'll ask that to the lieutenant governor of missouri about how this was hand. bill: who will take over the nation's armed forces. there is a job at the pentagon that needs to be filled. >> chuck hagel has been no ordinary secretary of defense. as the first enlisted combat veteran to serve in that position he understands our men and women like few others pause he stood where they stood. and our big idaho potato truck is still missing. so my buddy here is going to help me find it. here we go. woo who, woah, woah, woah. it's out there somewhere spreading the word about america's favorite potatoes: heart healthy idaho potatoes and the american heart association's

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bale secretary of state john kerry saying's possible nuclear talks with tehran will fail. new details on last year's machete terror attack on the streets of london. authorities say they were keeping tabs on the men who murdered lee rigby to months. one of them even said he planned on killing a soldier. that comment not found until after the murder. martha: the sudden resignation of secretary of defense chuck hagel. sources saying he was pushed out. leaving the impression with many observers he was made a

scapegoat about the president's foreign policy failures. what's next at the pentagon. let's bring in jack keane. good morning, general. good to see you. let's start with the beginning. how would you characterize the mood and tenor in the white house that led to this decision? >> i compare it to the white house i got a glimpse of in late 2006. the bush administration when the war in iraq was failing and they had a lousy mid-term election. they were struggling on what to do. do they need a new strategy or new leaders and they decided on both. peer we fast forward, lousy mid-term elections and in the white house events seem to be spinning out of control, putin

and ukraine and an isis strategy that does not seem to be working. hagel ran up against awful that. martha: you thought he sided with the white house. >> he was the president's indispensable man. he was opposed to iraq as a former secretary. he wanted to get out of iraq and afghanistan and he was willing to cut the defense budget. he found himself agreeing more with the generals and less the president's man and advocating for arming the ukrainians, taking a stronger stand on troops on the ground pane was have much for a quarantine on troops coming book from africa based on ebola. all of those things put him at odds with the white house and the fact of the matter is that's a small insular team there and

they resented the fact that he was more under of them. martha: going through so many defense secretaries in a short period time, the president is having a hard time finding someone to run the pentagon who agrees with him. >> the problem we have here, there is no department where there is more frustration between the president of the united states and the department of defense. secretary gates laid that not you his book, secretary panetta did it. now we have another incident where the secretary of defense is have much at odds as have the generals been through all three secretaries. now we'll have a fourth secretary of defense in six years serving a single president. that's quite unprecedented. it dramatizes the frustration that exists. martha: that's got to be a

potent cocktail for those considering taking this job. who do you think has the appetite for this job at this point? >> i can't speak to their motivations, and he may pull out a dark horse here, a name that's not in the media. but the fact of the matter is both of them are very capable and both of them i believe would do a good job. any shell flournoy wa close^ ^ ^ -- michelle flournoy was very close last time. she and ash carter are very capable and the president would do well to select either one of them. happen i thanksgiving. -- happy thanksgiving. bill: the damage to the area

around ferguson being seen from the air. we'll talk to the lieutenant governor of missouri to see what's being done to make sure it won't happen again tonight. >> i have two st. louis county police cars that basically melted north of suburban. we have had a lot of incidents with officers being hit by rocks, batteries, different things like that. i personally heard about 150 shots fired.

bill: 9:33 in new york. fox news confirming one of the architects of obamacare who called americans stupid, jonathon gruber will soon be on the hill on the morning much december 9, 9:00 a.m. eastern time. gruber found himself at the center of a media firestorm after a series of videos emerged that showed him saying that a

lack of trains parent i and the stupidity of americans helped get the affordable care act passed. martha: a firestorm we have been watching unfold in ferguson, missouri after the grand jury's decision not to diet the officer involved in the shooting of michael brown. here is missouri's governor jay nixon hours before the verdict was revealed. >> together we are all focused on making sure the necessary resources are at hand to protect lives, protect property, and protect free speech. martha: the governor's appeal for calm fell on deaf ears because this what is happened last night. >> this is definitely tear gas and it's being fired in all directions and it will clear the crowd.

martha: dozen of businesses were looted, burned and destroyed. amid fears these violent protest.may be far from over. joining us is missouri's lieutenant governor. the big question is, a lot of people look at the governor, looking at the administration, all of you, and asking, how could this happen given the preparation and the discussion of the national guard. >> you know what pane executive differs from a senator or member of congress? you actually have to do something. it's not enough to stand in a press conference and mouth some lines that are prepared. you have to actually act. what the vast majority of the missourians from asking. we saw the national guard follow

this morning. the question is being asked, where were they last night? the law-biding citizens and business owners and taxpayers of ferg southern and the st. louis * region have a right to ask this governor to answer some questions. i'm going to put one question out there that the media must put to him. he -- he declared a state of emergency almost a week ago and mobilized the national guard. then they were kept away at the crucial time when ferguson burned. martha: why were they kept away? do you know that to be a fact? >> we know they were kept away because they did not come in and stop that from the get-go. they were deployed other parts of the st. louis region. the mayor had them in a couple of dozen different locations i'm

told. maybe other parts of st. louis county. why were they not in there at the first sign of an overturned police car or smashed police car window with a show of force that would have stopped this? here is my question that the governor must answer. is the reason the national guard was not in there because the obama administration and the holder justice department leaned on you to keep them out? i cannot imagine any other reason why the governor who mobilized the national guard would not have them in into stop this before it started. martha: i hear the anger in your voice and i hear it in a lot of people's voices saying look what happened. i was saying this morning. when we cover stories like this and there is so much buildup and preparation. what happens in the end is often nothing. that would have been a thankful outcome. i was astonished to see the absolute opposite happened given the fact that there was a state

of emergency in the state and the national guard was called in. how:this question. 9:00 last night. in the middle of the evening when those groups had been waiting in the streets for this decision to come down. do you think that was a wise decision and why do you think that happened so late in the evening? >> as the news broke yesterday afternoon that they would announce it at 8:00 central time last night, a lot of us were scratching our heads. i think i would have chosen 6:00 a.m. and had the grand jury meet accordingly to meet that time schedule rather than an evening announcement when darkness has fallen and the bad folks who did so much destruction last night have several hours to do their worst. it seems to me a 6:00 a.m. announcement would be much better. that's not second guessing. you should know and your rinsers

should know within your viewers should know there is no communication with this governor. i sent and staff member count hall to the gosms office about pane hour ago to inquiry before a brief give went on your air and i have nothing, martha. i have nothing. martha: that's amazing the fact that the lieutenant governor cannot get any answers from the governor is a shocking state of affairs. >> it's been this way for the six years of his governorship with about four or five exceptions that were not nearly as serious as this when they did reach out to me for some pending announcement. martha: there were community groups that had pled with the police, they didn't want them in riot gear or incite aggressiveness because they not that would make things worse. is that part of this as well?

did the police go too far in backing down that show of force at the beginning when all of this came out and acceded to their demand. >> i suppose it could have been. i'm not' of one top negotiating with violent protesters and terrorists. if you are going to have the national guard deploy and state of emergency declared and hold them back, i say the governor owes the people of the state of the missouri a lot of answers beginning this morning. martha: let many hope we get those answers from governor nixon. we hope you can get some answers from your own governor to whom you are the lieutenant governor in your state. incredible. good luck to you and all your people in your state. bill: 20 minutes before the hour. markets opened up 10 minute sea go. new data shows up s. economy

grew more in the third quarter than we thought. the dow hitting a record close yesterday. it's 29th new high this year. dow 18,000 right around the corner. just in time form the busiest travel days dallas-fort worth year. winter storm working its way toward the northeast. it could make a famili' thanksgiving a holiday headache. martha: our coverage of the chaos in ferguson. we look at the light of day at the destruction. it's unbelievable. missouri try to the prevent any more today. hi, i'm henry winkler

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>> we need to accept that this decision was the grand juriy's to make. there are americans who agree with it and americans who are deeply disappointed. even angry. it's an understandable reaction. bill: darren wilson will not face criminal charges but the legal process he apparently is not over for the federal government. eric holder releasing a statement saying that his department's investigation is still on going. karl rove, the former deputy chief of staff for george w. bush, karl, good morning to you. welcome back to "america's newsroom." the statement from holder says the department will continue to work with law enforcement, civil rights, faith and community leaders across the country to foster effective relationships between law enforcement and the communities they serve and to

improve fairness in the criminal justice system overall. what will the department of justice do with ferguson now, karl? >> they have two investigations underway. the first one he announced the attorney general tea nounced when he went to ferguson in nicaragua which he said they would quote investigate allegations of unconstitutional police or patterns or practices by the ferguson police department. one investigation is going to look at the department as a whole and say has this been acting on the base of racial animus against blacks in its police and patterns of behavior. the second investigation is a civil rights review of whether or not charges should be preferred against officer wilson. this is unlikely to result in charges because it's a civil rights case and they would have to prove there was a deliberate

animus on the part of the officer wilson and the actions he took that night. and it's hard to prove. bill: you are suggesting the department of justice and its investigation stops here with regards specifically to darren wilson. >> with regard to darren wilson. he will have to go through a process and they will interview many of the same people they interviewed for the grand jury. they will be guided by the fact that the grand jury put out 33 files of testimony so they will know who they really want to talk to and who they don't need to talk to. but the other investigation will take even longer. it's likely to result in some kind of an action. the justice department is not going to wants to walk away from this without saying we got something out of it. so my suspicion is we are likely to see them work out an arrangement where the ferguson police department agrees to change some practices whether they are hiring practices. this is a largely white police department in what has become a

largely african-american community. if i wouldn't be surprised to they tried to put quotas in. a certain number of officers will have to be african-american or minority. bill: eric holder is not going to be around for all that because he's leaving that position. >> well, wait a minute. eric holder is so personally committed to this, which is a problem, that he said he will release these reports before he leaves office. he's going to serve until his successor is confirmed by the united states and the u.s. attorney lynch will be presented to the new congress next year. so what he has said on the record is he intends to get these things done which worries me because that shows he's personally invested in this and is looking for an answer. he's got an answer in mind rather than letting the evidence take him where it takes him. bill: i want to get to crisis management.

what regard to the governor joy nixon in missouri. he called a state of emergency. the lieutenant governor, republican was on just a few minutes ago talking to martha. a republican blasting democrat. is jay nixon responsible in part for what we saw unfold last night because if you activate the national guard and the town still burns down, what sort of force protection was there in ferguson? >> the fashion national guard was clearly used to protect critical sites elsewhere in st. louis county. but there appears to be a problem with efficiency if the government didn't use the national guard in the most affected area along florison avenue. we have a young man dead in august. last nigight we had the lives of literally hundreds if not thousands of -- a woman who owns

a beauty peninsula salon, a mexican food restaurant. a cvs. the people who live there and work, the people who own those businesses, all of them have been tragically affected. there was a mistake somewhere in this process that allowed the vie thrones go on for so long and take such a large part of the community down. bill: we hope it only one night. karl rove, thanks for the analysis. martha: the big meltdown is getting urnlgtdway in buffalo. -- getting underway. the area is digging out from 7 feet of snow. stick around. we'll be right back. it says here that a won's sex drive

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martha: a storm is heading up the east coast and it's threatening to cause big problems for millions of travelers, possibly clogging up the airports and the highways. dumping a foot of snow along the i-95 corridor up the coast. maria, tell me, tell my guests, tell me what they need to know. >> reporter: even where the weather won't be such an issue. even places like new york city, d.c. and boston will be impacted by the storm, expect to see trickle down delays across the country. this will be a big story tomorrow and bad timing. we get our nor'easter and on one of the biggest travel days of the year. we have a storm system across parts of the southeast and it will be producing areas of heavy rain and a slight chance to see

isolated severe weather across portions of florida. then it starts to get organized and moves up the east coast. by tomorrow we'll be seeing strong winds across portions of the mid-atlantic and new england. the concern is we'll be seeing heavy snow along interior portions of the northeast, most of that precipitation should remain all snow. along coastal areas you will have messy weather. it will be rain to start. eventually a mix and transitioning over to all snow along the i95 corridor. for thanking day travel conditions will be much bert along the northeast. if puck wait until thanksgiving morning you should do so. these are winter storm watches. the pink are warning as far south as north carolina and virginia and parts of main.

6-10 inches. isolated amounts much more than a foot. thank you, maria. the messages go today or go early thursday, right? yeah. if you can. bill: the riots exploding around ferguson, missouri. the grand jury not bringing charges against officer darren wilson. martha: the question, what is next for this man. darren wilson. we'll talk to mark fuhrman about what lies ahead for that police officer.

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newsroom. i'm martha maccallum. bill: i'm bill hemmer. mobs rioting in the streets venting their rage. there was a lot of arson and looting and gunshots. police facing a barrage of rocks, bottles and molotov cocktails. the prosecutor praising the work of the grand jury which heard 70 hours of testimony from 60 different witnesses. >> it's important to note here and say again that they are the only people, the only people who have heard an examined every witness and every piece of evidence. they discussed and debated the evidence among themselves before arriving at their collective decision. martha: at least 12 buildings were destroyed. 25 by some counts in ferguson. burned to the ground. many of them, gunshots keeping firefighters at bay. each harrigan found himself in

front of a very scary scene last night. >> all the way back. >> it's nighttime we don't know who is firing at who. we are just pulling back out of range. small caliber. all the way back. dutch, back! get near the building. it sounded like pistol fire. martha: a scary situation for a lot of reporters who had been in a lot of war zones. it felt familiar to them. more than 80 people were arrested on charges ranging from trespassing to burglary. bill: former prosecutor john vicks looks at the granted jury situation. and mark fuhrman on the rule of law and the use of deadly force.

we begin with adam housley. what have you sweeten sun up now? >> reporter: we moved -- what have you seen with the sun up now? >> reporter: one of the three locations here in ferguson. i'll give you a shot of a look. the national guard see him over there, they are protecting a substation 100 yards from where a lot of looting took place last night. this old towne ferg southern. we were down here in august. last august these businesses were passing out i love ferguson signs. last night they took a beating. windows busted out. major damage. three major locations in ferguson took a beating. there was nothing on fire here,

but you can see the water damage. the beauty supply store. you just keep walking. the mortgage brokerage shop. the that figure school. one after the other damaged, destroyed. looted, windows busted. we are finding residents from ferguson coming along who don't know anybody walking up here and cleaning up the glass on the street. >> we saw a lot of people boarding up over the weekend. can you tell whether those who board up survived this? >> theyer to the boards off and they still looted and went into the businesses. of course it's very frustrating to some business owners. a number of businesses i saw yesterday when i watt driving through town where they had the plywood up and the hand signs up for support of mike brown and

his family and they were still looted and burned. bill: at least 16 arrests reported so far. martha: how did the grand jury go about reaching this decision in prosecutors say the jurors listened to hours of testimony. they sifted through thousands of pages of document all outlined last night by the prosecutor. >> decisions on a matter as serious as charge an individual with a crime cannot be considered on anything other than a critical examination all the evidence. anything less is not justice. martha: john, good to have you back on the program. welcome. when you watched that testimony and watched him explain the process did anything strike you as unusual the way they went about it?

>> the way it was done, given the circumstances here. you have many, many witnesses with deeply conflicting versions of events. this is the kind of case where in my judgement you would want to put every wititness, everyboy who says they are a witness, put every one of those people in front of the grand jury. let those grand jurors judgment credibility of each of those witnesses. after they heard from all of them, let the grand jurors decide whose version of the facts they believe. it's that simple. you descronlt to put in this level of detail. this number of witnesses in every case. fit's straightforward case and there is not a disagreement as to the facts you can go with an abriefated presentation. this is not that case. martha: what do you say to those who say they wanted this to be a public trial so it could be open and available so everybody could understand the process and not feel like this was done behind closed doors in

a secretive way. >> there was every reason to do this in a secretive way. you are talking about people who live in a relatively small community. you want those people to be completely comfortable telling the truth, whatever the truth is. you have neighbors and friends of the brown family who witnessed something that happened here. you don't want them to testify in a preliminary hearing under the gaze of their neighbors and friends and risk saying something that while it's true, may be viewed as favorable to the police officer or mr. brown. you just want them to tell the truth. you are much more likely to get them to tell the truth when they are doing it in a proceeding that's closed and not under the gaze of friends and neighbors. martha: the questions raised by the prosecutors went to a number of topics. one was the number of shots that were fired and whether it was excessive. that is the issue some people

might have preferred to see a regular trial to ascertain. >> you don't get to a trial unless you can show probable cause to proceed. if the grand jury can't decide there is probable cause, you would never be able to photograph guilt beyond a reasonable doubt at a trial. that's the purpose of the grand jury, to decide whether a trial will go ahead and there is a likelihood they will be convicted. >> i would not have presented the case in a different way. people can like the outcome or not like the outcome. bill: we are seeing new photos of the officer darren wilson in the hospital right after that confrontation with michael brown for the first time. those photos released along with officer wilson's testimony when he describes what it was like

trying to subdue brown. he said when i grabbed him i'd felt like a 5-year-old holding hulk ho hogan. the face he had was looking straight through plea like i wasn't even there. he started to lean forward like he was going to tackle me, go right through me. mark fuhrman, fox news contributor and former lapd detective. we have grand grand jury testimony that's isn't always public. what do you think of the outcome so far? >> i think it was very predictable. even the limited amount we knew, we could paint a fairly good picture that michael brown was the suspect from the very beginning to the very end. he precipitated of action that was used against him. he preep sip 8 every contact with officer wilson so it was

fairly predictable. bill: rudy giuliani with sean hannity talking about the courage of those men and comen on the grand juriy. >> can you imagine the fear they must have had of the conclusion they had to reach? those people had to live there. maybe it's their stores that temperature are being broken and their homes that will be burned. it took a tremendous amount of courage to come to the conclusion no charges should be filed. the evidence of the police officer's innocence must have been overpowering. bill: what do you think about that? >> i think share giuliani was right on the button on that. the granted jurors had to weigh everything and they were not sequestered. they had to weigh what the response be. but rights right and the evidence is what it is. as we said for the last three months. the forensic evidence. ed the triple a.m.

investigation, the statements will all point to one and one conclusion. either the officer acted improperly or he did not. and the grand jury found that michael brown waltz aggressor, was the suspect. the prosecutor didn't use those words. but everybody description was exactly that. michael brown was the us next this case and officer wilson was the victim. >> as a retired officer what happens to darren wilson now? >> first this his career has been stolen from him because somebody targeted him, not the reverse. his career is over. they are going to look at him for federal civil rights violations but that bar is rather high, much higher than the states and i doubt if that will happen. there will being a wrongful death suit and i doubt if that will be successful on behalf of michael brown. the thing that people are

missing here is you have an entire community or parts of a community that are supporting michael brown absent of the fact that michael brown committed not only a robbery, but attacked the uniform officer on duty and tried to kill him. that for some reason escapes everybody but it won't escape a jury even in a wrongful death suit. and the wrongful death takes deliberate action on officer wilson. wilson was reacting, not pro acting. bill: mark fuhrman, thank you. march already the shakeup at the hospital at the center of the va scandal. a high-ranging official losing her job. then there is this. >> it gives one pause to think that there is interagency collusion against private

citizens. it's the weaponization of government. bill: all the emails that were supposedly lost have been found. thousands of them. what will we learn from those emails. martha: in ferguson, missouri we are getting better view of the violent riots despite the president's call for calm and despite the governor bringing the national guard. how did all this happen? we'll debate fair and balanced coming up. who we don't tolerate violence. the people committing violence and looting and smashing windows. that's not protesting. it's criminal conduct and i'm more than disappointed. i'm outlarged by it. -- i'm outraged by it.

bill: the woman who ran the phoenix va hospital given a ping slip after she and two other officials were placed on administrative leave. they kept a secret list of patient wait times to hide treatment delays. an internal investigation showed 40 patients died while waiting for appointments at that hospital. martha: president obama coming out shortly after 10:00 on the east coast. he called for calm as violence raged on the tv screen next to

him in ferguson. >> there are americans who agree with it and there are americans who are disappointed anding r angry. it, an understandable reaction. but i join michael's parents in asking anyone who protests to do so peacefully. martha: i don't know what your reaction was. i was home last night watching that. as the president was calling for calm on one side of the screen, on the other side of the screen protesters were rocking a police car. >> let's remember, a large majority -- the vast majority of people who protests were not violent or burning things down. they were people who believed and whether they had the facts -- they believe this guy was guilty of murder to begin with. that was an issue with him.

you can say that's wrong, they should have all the facts. but where you live in a community where the schools are worse pant infrastructure is worse and the police department is incompetent ... martha: i want to get to the broader point but i want to get rich's reaction. do you think the white house was aware it would look like that? they had to know cable news would put the president against a live shot. >> i guess i didn't think about it. it was bizarre. you have people trying to overturn a police car while he's making a plea for calm. what he had i have no problem with. he made the point that poor neighborhoods are in desperate need of good policing. that's why the police are disproportionately at risk in tough and dangerous neighborhoods because that's where the crime is. martha: there is a department of

justice investigation that's ongoing. they could potentially come up with a different answer to this question, no doubt. >> this is much bigger. this attorney issuing a statement and not mentioning this kid or his family was out and out terrible. the guy needs to understand some sensitivity. the prosecutor is ranting about cable news and social network. martha: i believe he did talk about the tragedy. >> i read it this morning. martha: mccollough? >> no, the on for wilson. he did not mention michael brown's name. the issue gets back to the point about -- did the white house anticipate this? i don't know how they couldn't have. there was enough buildup and forces on the street and tensions were high enough you would have expected they would

have. or it was a miscalculation. i wasn't there. but i can tell you this. it doesn't put an end to it. it's not just here. across the country. last night in new york city, three bridges were blocked. there is an underlying resentment in poor minority communities. ferguson they don't have a lot of the black officers. martha: you can't make this situation stand for all of that, bob. you can't. you have some to deal with the facts on the ground and that's what the prosecutor was delineating. >> you have a protest movement based on at worse a lie and erroneous understanding of what happened in this case. if it were true michael brown kneeled down on the ground and put his hands up and said don't shoot he most certainly would be alive today. the credible evidence suggests he attacked the officer and

tried to take his gun and repeatedly charged him. that's why the terrible tragedy happened. that's what people on the streets and on the left won't accept. this was a justifiable act of self-defense. >> if you had to live in that community and be subject to stops by police. 90% of stops in the that community are against blacks. martha: it doesn't mean they have to pay for the greater evils, nor should the store owners. >> i'm not saying that. i'm saying it underscores the resentments in the communities. they never believe the facts. martha: that's the problem. >> they burn down mom and pop businesses. martha: we'll continue our conversation after the break. bill: we can debate this, too. chuck hagel is out. who is the next secretary of

defense? we might have a clue, that's next. >> when he said the truth he cite size the administration. obama can tolerate a lot. but not criticism.

bill: the search is on now for a possible replacement for chuck hagel, handing in his resignation after said to have been forced out by the white house. jennifer griffin is at the pentagon watching this on day two now. why now for this, jennifer? >> reporter: well, that's a great question, bill. it's clearly connected to the midterm elections. it's not uncommon for a president to make changes to his cabinet in the wake of such losses. hagel became the sacrificial lamb for this white house which has been struggling to inject the president's national security team with new blood at a time when there's great

criticism about the strategy in iraq and syria to combat isis. hagel was the easiest member of the team to remove, instances of him butting heads with national security adviser susan rice emerging. >> secretary hagel accomplished a lot of things in what will be about two years of his term of service. he issued more than a dozen reforms, he managed the rebalance to the asia-pacific and, of course, helping draw down the mission in afghanistan while going after isil in iraq very, very aggressively. >> reporter: what has not changed is that national security policy is still firmly in control of a very few people at the white house who have been accused by two former defense secretaries and many in this pentagon of trying to micromanage the wars. that is unlikely to change, bill. bill: who is likely to replace him, jennifer? >> reporter: the two names that have been floated -- but, remember, they have been floated

before and there could be a wild horse out there -- the two names are michelle nor know who served as undersecretary of defense for policy, the number three job here at the pentagon. she would be the first female defense secretary, if chosen, the other name floated is ash carter who served under leon panetta, a very smart and capable chief operating officer. what is so unusual, bill, is for the president not to have a replacement to announce at the time of such a key member of the cabinet being removed. that leaves a vacuum and a lame duck here at the pentagon. it is unlikely that a replacement will be confirmed until next year. bill: very interesting last point there. jennifer griffin from the pentagon today. martha? martha: so the obamacare architect who called the american people "stupid" in the course of his really interesting lectures, jonathan gruber, has not been doing a whole lot of talking lately, but that is about to change. this time he will talk to congress. bill: also there is new reaction

from the a victim of the irsafte discovery of tens of thousands of e-mails from lois lerner despite sworn testimony from irs officials that it was not possible to find them. >> you asked us to believe that your very special experts couldn't save one piece of data from this drive or one just like it, correct? >> that's what i was advised, yes. >> my theory is this, you guys weren't ever going to tell us until we caught you.

martha: so jonathan gruber, the obamacare architect who claimed that the health care law was deceptively passed, is going to testify before the house oversight committee about comments like these: >> lack of transparency's a huge political advantage. and basically, you know, call it the stupidity of the american voter or whatever, but basically, that was really, really critical to getting this thing to pass.

martha: wendell goler joins us live from the white house. what do we expect we will hear from mr. gruber when he testifies, wendell? >> reporter: frankly, we expect another apology for his comment about the, quote, stupidity of the american voter. gruber has already said the comment was inappropriate. he was talking about the white house not making it clear that obamacare was based on what all insurance is based on, a system in which healthy people pay in and sick people get money. that and the fact that the mandate that people either buy insurance or pay a penalty is a tax. spokesman josh earnest says the president doesn't see it as cynically as gruber does. >> the sentiments that were for expressed by dr. gruber don't actually reflect what actually happened in the process of passing and implementing this law. >> reporter: gruber, by the way, is a huge fan of the affordable care act. in an article in the new england journal of medicine, he calls it the most significant piece of social policy legislation in 50

years, but he said it was bound to raise some people's health care costs. martha: so who else do we expect at this hearing, wendell? >> reporter: this is really california republican congressman darrell issa's swan song as head of the oversight committee which he has used to challenge the obama administration over the irs' targeting of conservative groups, the attacks on the u.s. consulate in benghazi and other things. he has announced that marilyn tavenner, who was the head of the center for medicare and medicaid services, will also testify. some of her e-mails about the launch of the, the botched launch of the healthcare.gov web site were lost. the oversight committee will be taken over by utah republican congressman jason chaffetz in the next congress. martha? martha: wendell, thank you very much. ♪ ♪ bill: new revelations about all those missing e-mails from former irs official lois lerner. a special treasury department watchdog has found those

e-mails, 30,000 pages. the irs previously claiming they had been lost for good. jay sekulow, chief counsel of the american center for law and justice, he represents several of the groups, and katherine, president of true the targeting. good morning to both of you. your reaction when the e-mails were found. >> no surprise. everything that the government has said to this point has proven to be the opposite of true. d.c. said they weren't involved, and they were. interagency collusion was supposed to not have happened, and it did. and now 744 backup tapes have been found when they were not supposed to even exist. bill: what's on them? >> that remains to be seen. i think all of america now needs to know what's in these e-mails, and let's just hope that the same i.t. guys that were involved to finding them in the first place aren't the same guys that are going to be opening

them this time. bill: a little more competency, i take it, from your answer. jay, who's reading these pages and pages and pages of material? >> yep. well, right now the inspector general, the custodian of the e-mails, and it appears, bill, they are e-mails from the period of time that the targeting took place. so what we're hoping is, ultimately, we'll get them through our litigation, and they'll probably be subject -- they are subject to freedom of information act requests, so we'll get the documents. what i suspect is that there's going to be more of these, by the way. i don't think this is the only documents that they're going to find. i think they're going to find the others. and that was after the testimony of the commissioner himself saying it was impossible to retrieve these. but i think what we're looking for, bill, here and what we'll see is who lois lerner was actually talking to. who were these e-mails sent to, who was responding? so we can find outut more detais on the interagency aspect of this. we know there was coordination with the d. of justice, with the chief counsel's office of the irs, with the white house counsel.

these e-mails should really shed some light on who -- bill: that would be, yeah, that would be a long trail. but, jay, right now is there a smoking gun? >> well, i think in 30,000 pages from lois lerner you're going to find a smoking gun because every time we've had a disclosure on the e-mails, there's been a smoking gun. in one case, it was the department of justice's involvement in this where they were going to piece together criminal cases, that was one of their ideas. we had the smoking gun where it went to the federal election commission which violates the urs rules. so i -- irs rules. so i suspect we'll find more than one. bill: katherine, the senate is investigating this as well. there is a bipartisan statement that came out about this, what records the irs lost.

bill: at least on that track it is still moving forward, right? >> let's hope so. i think it now falls to the entire country to make sure that no one forgets what the irs has tried to pull off to this point and making sure that these e-mails are followed all the way down, either down the rabbit hole or up pennsylvania avenue. i guess it remains to be seen. but there are a lot of answers that have yet to come forward. bill: to both of you, katherine first and then jay, will this be solved? will we get an answer? or maybe the better question for katherine is will you get a satisfactory answer? >> well, you know, it remains to be seen. we sued the irs. that case was dismissed a few weeks ago when irs i.t. folks stepped forward and said there was no way that this kind of information would ever come forward, and so the court dismissed the case. now here we are. i think there are already a lot of lessons that can be learned. i think there's smoking guns

everywhere you lack, and i think the -- everywhere you look, and i think the big question is who has the courage of their convictions to stand up and say enough's enough. bill: she sounds dubious, jay. are you the same? >> here's the thing, we've got cases still being litigated at the district court level, and as katherine said, i suspect it's going to not be down a rabbit hole, i suspect it's going to be higher-ups in treasury itself including white house counsel. i suspect also, bill, this is, as i said, the beginning of the disclosures. and katherine's right, there was a district court judge's decision a couple weeks ago based on the fact that these documented weren't available in part. the irs has to be under a microscope, and i suspect a new senate come january's going to do just that. bill: we will see then. jay, thank you. katherine, thanks to you as well. >> thanks, bill. bill: 19 before the hour. martha: certain civil rights activists whipped up emotions before the grand jury decision in ferguson, so where are they

now? as rioters respond to the grand jury decision with violence in some cases. we're going to talk about that when we come back. >> we just had a big volley, there's another round of the tear gas coming out of the police seeks. in that -- vehicles in that direction. again, intended to and very effective at dispersing these demonstrators for a short period of time.

bill: officials at the university of virginia holding a meeting today after a shocking piece in rolling stone magazine describing what it calls a huden culture of sexual violence at that school. the article centers on the woman's account of a brutal rape at a fraternity house. the university president asking police to investigate the allegations, saying the article contains details officials were previously unaware of. the school also putting a temporary ban on fraternity activities until the spring semester.

martha: civil rights activists were quick to get involved following the death of michael brown. jesse jack soften and al sharpton calling for protests and federal investigations, but where are they now is one of the questions that ease raced. -- that's raised. al sharpton is on his way to ferguson, he will do a news conference at noon today with the family, but our own juan williams in a very insightful op-ed this morning asks this question: where is the black leadership now that a grand jury has decided not to indict the police officer that killed michael brown? where's al sharpton? he advertises himself as a spokesman for the best interests of black america, but he is absent. where's california jesse jackson who says that he speaks for black america? he is missing in action too, and is juan will address all of the things he raised in that in just a moment. david webb is on the ground right now in ferguson, he's a fox news contributor, and juan joins us as well, as you can see. david, i want to start with you

this morning. what did you witness last night, and who was out there perpetrating these crimes? >> martha, excuse me, i'm a little hoarse from some of the tear gas last night. one of the things that has come out this morning is that as of the 60 reported arrests, only two were from outside ferguson. so diametrically opposed to what happened in august when there were at first 173 arrests with only three from ferguson. these were residents of ferguson committing these crimes. at that point they've gone beyond protesters. i witnessed not only the initial shots that were close to us down by the police station, but as we drove away down the street, i could see people breaking windows, looting, running out of stores. it was a mad scramble. it was no longer and, frankly for a lot of them, never had been about michael brown, but the people stirred up by al sharpton and jesse jackson and others who are simply are there for the, as you call it, they

advertise themselves. but it's a bait and switch on the black community to think that they in any way really represent the best interests of the solutions. martha: juan, you said as much in a different way in your piece that you wrote. we know now that al sharpton's on his way down there, but i think when you said that he was absent, you meant more than that. what did you mean? >> oh, yeah. i mean that in terms of leadership, in terms of vision, in terms of inspiring people to move away from the violence and move towards system kind of -- towards some kind of constructive product to come out of this very upsetting time, you know, the grand jury decision, i think, clearly left a lot of people unsatisfied. there's a dead young man, even if he was thuggish or whatever you want to do, shot six times. but the grand jury seems to have followed the law, and we have to follow the law in this country. so how do you make something good come out of it? well, where is al sharpton? ab sent. where is jesse jackson? you know, now that you need leadership on the ground being

constructive, productive, i don't see it. and when you look for leadership incredibly, it comes from the father and the mother of the dead boy. they're the ones that say let's not just make noise, let's make a difference. they're i'm paraphrasing what they said in a you see leadership from the people, some of the young people on the ground in ferguson who have been trying to organize in terms of churches, community meetings and the like, but you don't see it from these people who run around on the media advertising themselves as the great civil rights leaders. i think it's, it's just, i think, revealing, very revealing, martha. martha: you know, i think when you look at last night, we could have seen these people on the ground marching, you know, in front of the peaceful protesters, encouraging the rest of these looters and these criminals that were out there last night to put their heart in the right place and to make a difference. we may see that today. the president also said, juan, and i want to stay with you for

a second here, that he may go there. do you think that's a good idea? >> i don't know yet. i mean, we don't know what's to come, what the environment would be like today. i'm sure david might be able to help us, but again, i think you need people there who are making a clear point that what is the desirable outcome for the black community is not tearing up the black community. because a lot of these people who are taking advantage of this moment are not going to be involved in repairing that community, restoring property values and stores and getting children to school. martha: good point. >> things that enhance our lives, not going to happen. you need people there who say how can we channel this to some productive end, and the absence of leadership, maybe president obama would help. i'm struck by what the parents said about let's get body cameras on the police, let's have more political involvement. that's, to me, productive. martha: let me get back to david webb here. in terms of what happens next, what needs to happen next, david? >> well, juan just started the path on what needs to happen

next, martha, and it goes back to leadership. that leadership has to come from the community, from the families that are raising these children. we can talk about the issues after the shooting happens. what happened before that? who was michael brown? who are the other youth in this community and the other adults, since they're not all young, that are causing these problems? and the other part of this leadership which aggravates me and, frankly, should aggravate americans is that we seem to have given away our voice and our actions to these purported race grievance industry leaders like al sharpton and jackson and the social engineering constructs being ginned up by eric holder and others. those don't solve the problems. the problems are solved with education and solved with opportunity. to everyone who looted and to the residents of ferguson let me ask this question: when you need to go to work this morning in those businesses or to open your business -- because these are mostly residents, as i have anecdotally seen and interviewed

that live and work there -- where is your business? what has happened in your community? who are your neighbors that are doing this? 21,000 people in this town, they're not represented by these people, but they know, somebody knows who they are. hold them accountable, hold your community accountable. this is something that's unlimited to black, but here it has been turned into a black/white dynamic. the reality is you've got a bad situation where michael brown got into a fight with a cop. when you do that, black or white it doesn't matter, that's the accident of your birth. when that happens, you change the dynamic. martha: thank you so much, gentlemen. it should not matter whether the officer or the boy who was killed are black or white in the way that we look at this situation, and it shouldn't matter if you own a store, you shouldn't be the one who has to pay for the situation either as they are today. gentlemen, thank you. >> so true. martha: thank you very much. >> thank you, martha. martha: juan and david, good to have you with us. bill: "happening now" comes your way in a moment.

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you do with comcast business. and often even more. it's reliable. just like kung pao fish. thank you, ping. reliably fast internet starts at $89.95 a month. comcast business. built for business. bill: did you know thousands of u.s. businesses now bracing for a flood of new government regulations, part of the white house's post-midterm agenda taking effect between now and the beginning of january. shannon bream's been tracking it down, she's live in d.c. good morning to you. the impact of all these regulations is what? >> reporter: well, bill, regulatory action is an additional way the executive branch can get things done without having to go through congress, in fact, it's led some critics to say they've basically morphed into a fourth branch, one that the constitution doesn't provide for. the president and ceo of the national association of manufacturers says the impact of all those regulations is very

real. >> right now there are over $2 trillion of regulations that are impacting businesses of all sizes in all sectors all across the country. >> reporter: and, of course, much of that cost winds up getting passed on to the consumer at a rate of about $15,000 per american household every single year. bill: some regulation is necessary, but what is the administration going to do to find the right balance? >> reporter: well, a spokesperson at the office of management and budget told me earlier this year when i asked about all these new regulations that the administration is committed to finding a balance between protecting americans and our environment, our health and safety, and also growing our economy. but a number of state officials say environmental regulations in particular are destroying some of their key industries and taking jobs with them. gina mccarthy, head of the epa, says the government does have a job to do. >> i would suggest to you that we're following the way in which the energy world is actually

developing, and we're doing the things that are necessary to protect public health and the environment. >> reporter: by the way, over the last 90 days the federal government has issued more than 6,000 new regulatory actions. bill, anyone can check 'em out, regulations.gov, keep an eye on what's going on. bill: 6,000. >> reporter: 6,000 plus. bill: duck. [laughter] thank you, shannon, in washington. martha: you think that's a flood, how about the flood that may be happening in upstate new york? a lot of snow out there too. could be a little tricky getting to turkey day, over the river and through the woods and all that. we'll tell you what's coming up when we come back.

martha: so here's the deal, i am not a meteorologist. bill: yeah. martha: but i can tell you that that does not look good for folks going anywhere between d.c. and south of there all the way up to boston over the course of thanksgiving, and i'm one of them, so i wish everybody well

out there. bill: so they're saying 6-10 inches for some people. martha: yes. bill: 12 inches for others. that starts on wednesday -- martha: early hours of the morning, i believe, right? we should get the real meteorologist to explain this. bill: that is fantastic news, isn't it? [laughter] martha: it'll be snowy for your turkey bowl and your turkey trot. bill: it's going to melt right after that. how's buffalo doing? martha: i know. bill: they said the waters were going to rise. we saw system of the stuff -- martha: they're doing okay but, hopefully, it'll go slowly enough that they can handle it piece by piece. but happy thanksgiving. you're going to be in d.c. bill: yeah, happy thanksgiving. and you're going to be in -- martha: i'm going to be eating turkey and getting ready for guests and all that good stuff, so i wish you all a happy, happy thanksgiving, and i will see you on monday -- bill: how many people do you have? martha: 33 in my house. if you can stop that, send me a tweet. i'll be impressed. bill: i hope you get a drum trick. "happening now" starts right

now, everybody. bye-bye. martha: thanks, everybody. must♪ ♪ jon: ferguson, missouri, explodes in violence overnight after the announcement that a grand jury would not indict police officer darren wilson in the shooting death of unarmed teenager michael brown. welcome to "happening now," i'm jon scott. heather: and i'm heather in for jenna lee today. the streets of ferguson, missouri, mostly clear, the sidewalks covered in shattered glass that tells the story of last night's fury there. protesters torching buildings and police cars, looters leaving more than two dozen hiss damaged or destroyed -- businesses damaged or destroyed. in the meantime, police responding with smoke, tear gas and also bean bags, arresting more than 80 people there altogether. and now police are stepping up their efforts to contain the violence. >> the plan that we had with the