owners here in ferguson, juan. >> steve, thanks so much. thank you all for watching us tonight. have a great thanksgiving. i'm juan will jams in for bill o'reilly. and please remember the spin stops right here because we're looking out for you. developing tonight, the national guard and police on alert on a frigid and snowy night in ferguson, missouri. bracing for what could develop into a third night of dangerous protests. welcome to "the kelly file" special. i'm shannon breem in for megyn kelly. some 48 hours since the announcement officer darren wilson would not be indicted in the shooting death of 18-year-old michael brown, the scene in ferguson appears to be relatively calm. last night we witnessed shots fired, dozens of arrests, and a police car being torched. the governor saying he's continuing to monitor the situation closely saying the actions of the national guard have been helpful. but some feel the governor sent in the troops far too late.

the former ferguson mayor even calling for the governor's resignation today. listen. >> he failed the city of ferguson. he failed the state of missouri. he should resign. >> we have a powerful lineup for you to want. governor mike huckabee and judge alex ferrar. but we begin with mike tobin live on the ground in ferguson. hello, mike. >> hi there. it's pretty slow largely due to the weather right now. you've got this wet miserable snow coming down. because of that you can see number of demonstrators has picked up a little throughout the evening but is pretty small. what is picking up is their volume. contrast them to the national guard out here in this bad weather the night before the holiday, they're standing sent ri as their mission would dictate. we just saw them change out shifts. so there are more guardsmen nearby but some have the opportunity to go inside and warm up as they change out shifts. local police do say there are some demonstrations planned.

they don't know if they're really materialize in this miserable weather. everything could change as some of these outsiders are described show up on the scene and cause trouble. >> mike, you have been there from the night this really was explosive, that first night, tell us in your opinion what you're seeing on the ground and the difference that the national guard has made and your impression about whether they could have had an influence on what happened just after the announcement. >> well, i think the one thing people don't understand about the national guard and the role they play, is they would never be the tip of the spear. what you have the national guard do since they've been here even over the summer is they come and do more of the backup roles. they'll secure the command center. you can see right now they're securing the ferguson city police department. they'll secure some structures. that frees up the different police officers here locally who have been training for months now specifically how to deal with the crowds and try to

specifically cater their training to the intelligence that has been developed out here. >> all right, mike tobin live on the scene in ferguson. thank you, mike. so what other steps could the governor have taken to prevent the worst of the violence in ferguson? former arkansas governor mike huckabee is the host of "huckabee" here on the fox news channel. thank you for being with us tonight. >> thank you. great to be with you, shannon. >> can you talk about what authority you have to call the national guard, how that would be used? we know the governor declared a state of emergency, seemed like things were teed up and ready to go, but when the moment came at least that first night, the governor didn't activate them. >> i think that's something he's going to have to answer for. it was very clear this was an explosive situation. you had people coming in from all over the country who were already lined up geared up to protest. not just protest but create a violent situation. what the governor can do is call

the national guard, he's their commander in chief. what you don't want to do is put the national guard as mike tobin so accurately stated as the tip of the spear. they're not police officers. they don't perform that duty. they can provide crowd control. they can provide a sense of security. they will provide a human wall. there's a lot of things they can do, but you don't want to put a military presence in the sense of putting guns in their hands and put them right in the very front of riot control. that is a police function. so why the governor didn't deploy more of those troops the first night only he can answer. it's pretty obvious he should have. >> do you think part of this is the issue of political correctness. there's been much made of the police militarization. that's the police force we're talking about. but put national guard troops on the streets in their fatigues in uniforms and seems to spark more conversation about the level of force or the level of presentation of officers of guardsmen with respect to the protesters? >> well, i think we all would

agree that militarization if you're going to be serving divorce papers is absurd to go battering down somebody's door at 2:00 a.m. shooting their dog and scaring the daylights out of a family. or if you're just simply doing a search for, you know, some stolen property, that's an overkill. but what we're talking about here is stopping a riot. this is where people's property is destroyed, people's lives are in danger. at that point you want the police to escalate. you want them to take it as far as it has to go to let people know that there is a difference between law and order and chaos. and if you're not going to degenerate a community into chaos and allow people to burn not only the property of other people but potentially maybe inadvertently but kill people because of their violent behavior. >> i want to play a little of what the lieutenant governor had to say last night about the governor and the delay in making this call. >> it is not political when a nonpartisan elected mayor of

ferguson is desperately trying to reach the governor of missouri and he can't get his calls returned by anyone in the governor's office. the executive power as commander in chief of the missouri national guard resides in the chief executive's office. that's the governor. why don't you ask him where he was last night? was he in a command center? where was he? why did they hold the guard back? let's get some real answers to those questions. >> governor huckabee, you mentioned off the top that he may have to answer questions about this. he may have to explain, do you think he'll ever really be called to account for that? and possibly from those business owners who lost everything. >> i think he will. i think the legislature of missouri's likely to call him. he doesn't have to go to the legislature to speak. but here's the thing, normally in this kind of situation would be a command center set up. the governor would be in charge of coordinating. he would coordinate with the national guard, the state police, the local police, the local county and the local city. because somebody has to oversee

that. and typically in this situation that has escalated to that it would be the governor. why this governor was absent during this process and was not on top of it and being the lead spokesperson is frankly beyond me. it's not anything that i haven't experience with in terms of sort of being absent on a case like this. i can't imagine it. i true will cannot. >> it seems strange to me that the mayor said he was calling the governor, couldn't get anybody with the governor's staff to answer him. he started calling the missouri speaker of the house and majority leader and other people that really don't have the authority to help him, is that strange to you that the governor in the midstowing that decisiong would be unreachable to the mayor of ferguson? >>in explicable, shannon, is the word. the governor should have been calling the mayor for heaven sakes. the mayor shouldn't have had to call the governor. if the mayor wasn't physically there then right on the phone. i can go through so many

instances in my tenure whether it was a tornado or flood or school shooting, the communication lines were open absolutely 24/7. and that county judge -- or that city mayor knew that they could get in touch directly to the governor immediately. that call would be put through, didn't matter what time it was because what you want to do is contain a situation, not let it fester. and you sure don't want those local people to feel like they're left on an island all by themselves and that's what they obviously felt like had happened to them. >> on a night like that when they knew what was unfolding. that's still one of the most confusing questions for me. governor huckabee, great to see you. thank you, sir. >> happy thanksgiving, shannon. >> and to you as well. new questions over the so-called logic behind some of the protesters' arguments. judge alex is next on debunking almost every claim we've heard from the critics of officer wilson and this case as a whole. plus, what attorney general eric holder is saying about police in ferguson and about police

departments across the country that has some wondering if he owes them an apology. and we are continuing to watch protests across the u.s., now around the world. this video in from london where a large people gathered outside the u.s. embassy. we're keeping an eye on this. stay right here on "the kelly file." you pay your auto insurance premium every month on the dot. you're like the poster child for paying on time. and then one day you tap the bumper of a station wagon. no big deal... until your insurance company jacks up your rates. you freak out. what good is having insurance if you get punished for using it? hey insurance companies, news flash. nobody's perfect. for drivers with accident forgiveness, liberty mutual won't raise your rates due to your first accident. see car insurance in a whole new light. liberty mutual insurance.

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for the perfect shave at any angle. go to philips.com/new for savings on shavers and trimmers. innovation and you. philips norelco. hands up, don't shoot. that was the mantra from many protesters from almost the very beginning of the michael brown case. but in an article titled "the ferguson fraud," one author looks at why brown would be alive today if that phrase was the reality of what happened. and suggests that the entire argument this grand jury case was flawed as well. let's talk about it with host of judge alex and retired circuit court judge.

great to see you tonight, sir. >> great to be with you, shannon. >> i want to ask you a couple of questions because not only your experience as a judge but prior to that a law enforcement officer as well. let's talk about how this works when an officer is put before a grand jury, the case is put before a grand jury. there's been a lot of criticism that a special prosecutor wasn't appointed or even the fact that the officer testified. in this article we've referred to called the ferguson fraud, there are a lot of points made about the fact that in a grand jury setting somebody who testifies in danger of being indicted, they don't get an attorney and anything they say can and will be used against them. what does that say for you about the officer's decision to testify? >> well, either way it's a risky decision. because whether he was right in using justifiable use of deadly force or was wrong in using deadly force, you still have a federal investigation hanging out there from a department of justice that really has seemed a

bit partial towards getting some type of conviction or some type of charges or some type of something from the police department itself or from the officers. so it's still risky for him to do that. so he must be pretty confident, i would say, about the outcome of it. i will agree that it is unusual for a defendant, any defendant not just a police officer but any defendant to voluntarily, you know, testify in front of a grand jury. and it's also a little unusual the way it was done. now, grant it grand juries across the country have different rules. and grand juries are investigative bodies as well as being bodies that determine whether or not probable cause has come out and has been reached. in some places grand juries launch their own investigations into whatever they want. but what i took from the way this was presented because the public -- some of the criticisms i've heard were that the prosecutor really didn't, you know, take the lead, didn't ask

the grand jury for any particular charges. honestly, prosecutors have an ethical obligation and they are prohibited ethically from bringing charges in a case where they do not believe they can prove it beyond every reasonable doubt. that's one of the protections we have to make sure an innocent defendant does not go to prison. so they certainly have an ethical obligation not to bring a case they believe rises to a level of probable cause. and i suspect, and this is just me speculating, that after he realized the initial witnesses, because remember the witnesses at the beginning, six or seven or eight were saying he was shot in the back, he was surrendering, as the evidence came out, the forensic evidence that doesn't lie, showing that that was not true as witnesses came forward, the african-american witnesses, so we can kind of remove the claim of any racism in the witnesses' mind and said i saw him turn around and charge the officer

like a football player. and i will, you know, be up front with you, i haven't gone through the 70 hours of testimony. so some of it i've seen and some i'm relying on the prosecutor having released it to everybody and told everybody what's in it. i suspect that mccullough realized, not only can't i prove this beyond a reasonable doubt but i can't even charge here because i think this is a justified shooting. realizing that he knew from the beginning there was criticism about him being the prosecutor because his father had been murdered by an african-american and demands that another prosecutor be provided. so i think he realized you can imagine if i decide not to prosecute what they're going to think. and he turned it over to the grand jury, probably in an investigative capacity to say, look, here's everything. the good, the bad and the ugly, the witnesses originally his hands were up and now many have recanted and many have admitted they didn't see it. and here are the witnesses who are saying it went the way the officer did.

and here's the forensic evidence that shows michael brown's dna on the officer's gun. now, if all of this is true, i think he was trying to say it's not me. it's the evidence. >> and we know that the grand jury was convinced of that having seen, you know -- >> about salutely. >> you said 70 hours of testimony, they've seen all the evidence including the autopsy requested by the family in addition to the one that was done by government agents. so people understand the level that the grand jury would have to get to to say we now indict this officer much lower than what you actually have to present at trial. >> yes. >> you talk about him working through that process knowing he wasn't going to get a conviction just to get past the grand jury is a much lower level. >> much lower. it's just probable cause. it's level required for a police officer to make an arrest. probable cause. in order to convict he's got to prove it beyond every reasonable

doubt. remember the public looks at this as an unarmed man. mind you, michael brown was a 6'6" 285-pound man. the police officer was tall himself. he was about 6'4" 210, not nearly as heavy. but he's in a police car, he's just been assaulted according to the physical evidence on the scene, he's been physically assaulted in the police car by michael brown, okay. the police officer doesn't know how far michael brown's going to go. michael brown knows how far he's going to go, but as a police officer -- and i was a police officer. >> right. >> you don't know how far this person is willing to go. if he gets my gun, is he going to pump six rounds in my chest? >> which happens. >> or is he going to run away with it? >> right. i want to play a little about what officer wilson had to say about remorse and then michael brown and quickly get your reaction. >> sure. >> i'm sorry that their son lost his life. it wasn't the intention of that day. it's what occurred that day.

and there's no -- nothing you can say that's going to make a parent feel better. >> iv sounds like you don't think you were responsible. >> i did my job that day. >> do you feel any remorse? >> everyone feels remorse when a life's lost. like i told you before, i never wanted to take anybody's life. you know, that's not the good part of the job. that's the bad part of the job. so, yes, there is remorse. >> and that was from the exclusive abc interview speaking from an officer's perspective, judge, that's got to be the last thing you ever want to see happen on your line of duty. >> well, regardless of what happens you have to carry that decision the rest of your life. you just took somebody's life. i've had the unfortunate opportunity to sentence two people to death. i did what i had to do. i knew it was the right punishment. but i still think about it. you are starting the wheel of ending somebody's life. it's got to be much, much harder

when you actually pull the trigger that ended somebody's life. especially an 18-year-old. and my heart goes out to the family of michael brown. my parents lost two sons. i know how horrible it is and what a hole it leaves in your life. but, you know, two wrongs don't make a right. and in this case it's not even a wrong. i honestly see if the evidence was the way it is -- if the evidence is the way that we're told it is, the shooting would be justifiable. >> yeah. even though it is absolutely tragic that anyone would lose a child. judge, thank you very much. great to see you and happy thanksgiving. >> thank you, happy thanksgiving to you too. well, michael brown's mother speaking out moments ago. what she has to say about her husband's actions after the decision came down on the streets with all the protesters. plus, president obama has called for calm in ferguson, but then added it's not really his job to comment "on ongoing investigations and specific cases." why has he done that?

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from the particular circumstances in ferguson, which i am careful not to speak to because it's not my job as president to comment on ongoing investigations and specific cases. >> well that was president obama just yesterday weighing in on the events in ferguson, but look what else we found. >> my understanding is is that professor gates then shows his id that this is his house. and at that point he gets arrested for disorderly conduct. i think it's fair to say number one, any of us would be pretty angry. number two, that the cambridge police acted stupidly.

my main message is to the parents of trayvon martin. you know, if i had a son, he'd look like trayvon. we lost a young man, michael brown, in heartbreaking and tragic circumstances. when something like this happens, the local authorities including the police have the responsibility to be open and transparent about how they are investigating that death. >> alan, good to see you. >> good to see you, shannon. >> okay, did the president set himself up? he's like i can't comment on ongoing criminal cases but then he's done it many times? he's only contradicts himself. >> well, he shouldn't have said calling the police acted stupidly. when you make comments like i shouldn't comment on individual cases and he's already done that, i mean, you know, we live in a videotape youtube world. you can't do it because someone's going to go back like we just did and find here's where you're contradicting

yourself. >> we can't escape anymore. everything is out there somewhere on the internet. >> you want to make a big deal and look at this horrible thing he said and a hypocrite and liar, those who don't like the president will use this against him. >> he set himself up. just like the conversation we've been having the last couple weeks about action on immigration where he said 25-plus times that we found, you know, that i can't do this, legally i can't do it, i hear what you're saying but i can't do what you're asking me to do, legally wouldn't be defensible and -- >> i was just on last week having a debate with megyn kelly about this very incident. i think what he did though is he got in office and looked back at president and looked at what other presidents have done and realized reagan and bush the 41st gave permanent amnesty to people -- >> it was a congressional action. not just executive -- >> he's saying to congress, give me a bill. can overturn what i' any time you want. i see that in a different light. >> okay.

we won't go back to that. but as far as this thing with the president weighing in on some of these controversial cases, is it helpful, is it hurtful? i mean, he is a lawyer. he knows -- let these things get resolve and had then see. >> most of the things he said you play i think are within realm -- >> commenting on ongoing investigations. >> and using the word stupid with police i don't think was a very good idea. that does not sit well. but when he said trayvon could have been my son, he got a lot of flak for that, but it's true. trayvon could have been his son. he's an african-american president talking about -- don't forget, the trayvon situation is very different than what we're experiencing in ferguson. he's minding his own business, walking innocently in a place someone didn't think he should be. that's not anything like what happened to michael brown. >> when the president speaks out on things before they're resolved, obviously he has great influence. and i think back to june of a couple years ago when we were waiting on the decision, the initial decision on the

affordable care act from the supreme court and he said the supreme court would never overturn a rightly passed law of congress, which they've done many times. but when he has that kind of weight and influence, i mean, is it better until something's decided to not say anything? >> it's called obamacare. it's something he promoted. of course he wants that court to go a certain way. that's different than commenting on a case where it's still being adjudicated. that's different than saying this is my legislation, i wanted it. of course he's going to feel that way. >> all right. alan, we hope you have a happy thanksgiving. >> i you do. welcome to new york. nice to spend part of your thanksgiving here. >> i like that you and i share the philosophy, go to restaurant, make reservations, no turkey. no dishes, no clean up. tensions high in ferguson after the grand jury decision. now the move by a big national newspaper being called into question. why howard kurts calling it a record move. and what attorney general eric holder is saying about police in

ferguson and about police departments across the country that has some speculating that he owes them an apology. i'm m-a-r-y and i have copd. i'm j-e-f-f and i have copd. i'm l-i-s-a and i have copd, but i don't want my breathing problems to get in the way of hosting my book club. that's why i asked my doctor about b-r-e-o. once-daily breo ellipta helps increase airflow from the lungs for a full 24 hours. and breo helps reduce symptom flare-ups that last several days and require oral steroids, antibiotics, or hospital stay. breo is not for asthma. breo contains a type of medicine that increases risk of death in people with asthma. it is not known if this risk is increased in copd. breo won't replace rescue inhalers for sudden copd symptoms and should not be used more than once a day. breo may increase your risk of pneumonia, thrush, osteoporosis, and some eye problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking breo.

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fox week extreme weather center watching this nor'easter bring rain, wind, sleet and snow especially interior sections of the i-95 corridor up towards new england, west of new york city. luckily it's been mainly a slushy rain event for all of the big cities from d.c. through new york and boston to philadelphia. this is a quick mover. it will be out of the way by thursday morning. so the parade in new york city should go without a hitch. however, in the next several hours still seeing gusts 40, 50 miles per hour offshore and that could cause more delays at the airports. i know we've had hundreds of

cancellations throughout the day. as for thanksgiving itself, tomorrow, not a bad forecast at all. it's going to be chilly across the upper midwest and great lakes. some breezy conditions for new england. watching a storm system move into the northwest. but the southern tier of the country looks excellent. and for the parade forecast for tomorrow if you're watching it on tv or you're here in the big city, we're going to be dealing with conditions that are chilly. windchill's going to be around 32 degrees. and the winds will be from the northwest around 10 to 15 miles per hour. so that shouldn't be a problem for the balloons getting up in the air. and it should be a pretty nice day. just a little bit on the cold side. and of course we will keep you up-to-date from the fox news extreme weather center. sunday's travel forecast looks very good for much of the country. we are watching the system across the great lakes. otherwise a very nice day for the travel home. i'm janice dean from the fox news extreme weather center.

attorney general eric holder coming under fire for his reaction to the rioting in ferguson. after taking what charles krauthammer called a "astonishing tone" and this case reflects serious issues with police across the country. trace gallagher live in our west coast newsroom with more. hi, trace. >> hi, shannon. throughout his term attorney general eric holder has been much more willing to weigh in on racial issues than president obama. back in august when michael brown was shot holder was criticized for intimating that ferguson police had some race issues. milwaukee wisconsin county sheriff accused holder of demonizing law enforcement. and now in response to the unrest in ferguson for the past two nights, holder's comments are again being compared to the president's. first listen to what the president said. >> burning buildings, torching cars, destroying property, putting people at risk, that's

destructive. and there's no excuse for it. those are criminal acts. >> now listen to the attorney general, especially the phrase at the very end. play it. >> it is clear, i think, that acts of violence threaten to drown out those that have legitimate voices, legitimate demonstrators. and those acts of violence cannot and will not be condoned. >> did you hear it? well, in case you missed it, fox news contributor and syndicated columnist, charles krauthammer, did not. >> he is the attorney general of the united states and he uses the word condone. is there anybody that thinks arson and looting ought to be condoned? i think that is an astonishing statement by an attorney general. >> but many believe the attorney general is on the right track and that he should double down by filing federal charges against officer darren wilson. one group that defends police

officers agrees that we should rely on the legal system, but without authority figures trying to sway the outcome. shannon. >> all right, trace. thank you very much. joining me now j christian adams, former criminal justice attorney. what do you make of how eric holder is handling this situation? >> he's handling it miserably, shannon. from the very beginning. he went to ferguson, he took sides, he injected race into this. he got everybody in ferguson thinking that an injustice actually occurred. he misbehaved as the attorney general. ask then he has the audacity to not condemn in the strongest terms this militant, radical, wicked anarchy we're all seeing on our tv sets. don't forget, shannon, the police in this country are what separates us from this mob. and for holder and his department of justice where i used to work, to take the anti-police attitude that they have is astonishing.

i can assure you the lawyers who work there have an anti-police attitude. holder's only representing the people who work for him. >> all right. well, you know, this is an attorney general who said not long ago to our own juan williams that he very much 1,000% wants to be viewed as an activist. do you think that's part of the way he's handling this? the fact that the d.o.j. has launched investigations against police departments, more than two dozen of them, across the country? >> well, no attorney general in american history has said anything like that. not janet reno, not the great ed mees. none have behaved like this attorney general. and the reason, shannon, is because holder is using the hope -- the hope for the mob that there will be charges in this case to push a wider anti-police policy. he's threatened what are called best practices. you can be sure the best practices favor the criminals as usual with this administration. but, shannon, i can tell you and i've reported, there are going

to be no federal charges in ferguson. the lawyers at the justice department know this is a -- case. the fbi has told eric holder in the trayvon matter with george zimmerman, it's a don case. he will not announce he's shutting them down because he wants to stoke the mob. >> he visited with ferguson, he visited the parents of michael brown, they said that was a big step to hopefully be able to regain their trust in the process. he's saying despite what happened with the grand jury, the federal investigation continues. it's seeming to give hope to those who want to see officer wilson punished or, you know, in trouble in some way that that may actually happen. but based on the law as it stands and the testimony of the witnesses and the physical evidence including the autopsy that was done at the request of the parents, where does the

attorney general go from here with regard to those civil rights violations and potential other federal activities? >> what he'll do is he'll keep up the facade to the family, to the civil rights agitators, the civil rights agitators like the naacp and barbara arnwine -- that there's a chance there's going to be charges. that anybody who knows the facts knows there's not going to be charges. >> well, we will standby because in this case you never know what's going to happen. j christian adams, thank you. and happy thanksgiving. >> you too. next up, michael brown's mother on the claims that her husband helped to stoke the violence on the streets after the grand jury decision. cocoa or eggnog?

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two different things. and freedom of speech, you can say whatever you like. but remember what those people were saying august 9th. and it wasn't coming from the family. >> joining me now, bishop rafael green. and joe hix, vice president of community advocates and member of project 21. gentlemen, welcome to you both. >> good to be with you. >> thank you. >> bishop, i want to start with you. because prior to the decision on monday night, michael brown's father had put out a message saying he didn't want his son to be remembered by violence, by protest. that there were other ways to accomplish things and work needed to be done. but not in this way. do you fault his stepfather then for standing there when people were so upset, there were throngs of them, and he's saying burn the blank down multiple times? >> no, i don't fault him for that. it's just an outburst of anger. many people have them. i'm sure even officer darren wilson may have had an outburst

of anger, it was just off camera. it's very important to understand though these were the requests, this man was really, . and you take it for what it's worth. people will respond according to what they really believe they should do regardless of what the stepfather did. >> we know what happened in the hours after that, which is heartbreaking for everyone there in ferguson, especially those business owners. you know, whether they were involved in any of what happened to michael brown, the tragedy that involved him, they lost their businesses. and we saw them many of them the next day saying how am i now going to provide for my kids or family or be part of this general community? i ask you, joe, we can't say whatever we want. there's legal authority on that, you can't yell inside of a crowded theater fire. was this that kind of equivalent? or is that overstating it? >> well, obviously this stepfather's not going to be prosecuted for his comments. and first of all i want to say the mom and the dad, the actual

dad in this case got a big pass from me. losing a child in that way is devastating. so they get a pass. i have no criticism of anything they've said even when i've disagreed. the step dad hour in front of throngs of people that have been at a razor's edge for several days waiting a decision with threats of violence already in the air in ferguson and other parts of the nation. and he then releases this outburst from the podium in front of this crowd, it's like pouring gasoline on a fire ready to ig noit. i think he should be in a certain way held accountable for that. i don't think you're going to see any kind of prosecution for those inflammatory statements. judge it for what it is and perhaps condemn his inability to understand what the real father has been saying arguing for

peace and calm on the street. very different message coming from these two different men. >> bishop, do you think that it is possible with all of the emotion that's involved here to have a constructive conversation about the facts about the evidence, about what's been laid out even though there may be some dispute in interpretation of it civilly? >> to be sure. also i think it's important to begin in some ways not necessarily condoning and approving every action and every word, but somehow establishing that you do understand where people are coming from. most conversations break down the moment an individual feels that you do not understand. you don't, as they say in the street, you don't feel where they're really coming from. we can progress and move forward once that is established. and we'll be able to probably come to some agreement. this whole issue of interpretation is really the culprit in my estimation because it really has to do with

utilizing standards and critical assumptions that already presuppositions in the minds and hearts of many, many people. so it's important, it's very, very important to be able to establish not only what you mean or what i mean but what the person who is actually listening to us means as well. we do this all the time when we study scripture. you must begin in the context, historically, emotionally, geographically, every single thing. your don't pull it out and set it up to your own standard. >> joe, do you think we can do that here? if we're just looking at the law and the facts, do you think there can be that interpretation? that the two sides can see any common ground here? >> well, with all due respect to what we just heard here, my problem what we see happening are people that are just flat out rejecting facts and evidence eyewitness testimony from black witnesses who came and corroborated the police officer's version of events. yet people saying we won't

believe it. we refuse to accept it and continuing argue pushing forward in saying in essence that the nation, people who aren't black in this case as we just heard, don't understand them. don't understand where they're coming from. >> all right. >> i'm not always sure we need to understand that and the devastation been in the wake of that. we have to somehow find a way to engage as the bishop just said each other, but there has to be some common basis for us having that discussion. the people to reject nearly pathological way facts and evidence is not a basis to have that kind of discussion. >> we got to leave it there. thank you both gentlemen for your time. >> thank you. >> thank you. up next, howard kurts on what he calls a reckless move by a major national newspaper in the ferguson coverage.

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with tensions running high and protests continuing to break out across the country, the "new york times" coming under fire for publishing an article on officer darren wilson's recent marriage that included the town and street name where his house is located. howard kurts is host of "media buzz." howard, what do you make of this? >> it's terribly irresponsible. i'm flabbergasted that the times would publish this information, given the racial, the tinderbox atmosphere, the rioting, looting, burning down of buildings, why practically give some crazy person directions to find wilson? and this is true, shan non, whether you believe darren will schon should be indicted in the killing of michael brown or he acted justifiably in self-defense. >> all right. so i think back in this situation where we had a couple years ago a paper in new york that published the names of legal gun owners and also an interactive map. i mean, there is information out

there. it's -- you know, if you do enough searching you can find most of it, but what kind of responsibility does a news outlet have when it comes to putting information out there regarding people who aren't doing anything illegal but could put them in danger? >> putling them in danger. that's the key question. the times doesn't seem to have any second thoughts spokeswoman saying, well, we only published the street, which would be hard to find in a small town. and that the information had been widely reported. i don't know how widely reported it was, but the times is a megaphone and to publish it on the eve of this night in ferguson and we have already seen the violence and town still on edge. you have to wave what was the benefit to readers? this was about darren wilson secretly getting married versus putting his life in jeopardy. and i think the paper has done that. >> what was the benefit? what possible journalistic benefit could there be to giving that street name? >> even a routine story we are very reluctant to publish the

street or the address of anybody who's a celebrity, if only to protect them against harassment or stalkers. but in a situation like this that is already so dangerous, you know, sometimes there are very difficult calls in journalism. do you publish a national security story based on anonymous source you have to weigh as a benefit to the country, to people finding out about this versus any putting u.s. troops for example or security interests in jeopardy here. i don't see any upside. it was a throwaway paragraph. how is the paper and its editors going to feel if someone goes after darren wilson? this has touched a nerve. my twitter feed is exploding. >> do you think there's any chance there will be a retraction or apology? >> i think there should be an apology. you can't unpublish a story. you can certainly take it down online. i think if the reaction bills perhaps the times will see this was simply not worth it. that this was in my view irresponsible. i do think the paper should apologize. >> all right. well, is this something you're

going to cover sunday potentially on "media buzz"? >> we're going to cover a lot of angles about the ferguson media coverage. and this, shan non, will be one of them. >> there is an ongoing conversation. you think about things the fact somebody hasn't done legally wrong there are big questions in these cases. we look forward to seeing you on sunday and happy thanksgiving in the meantime. >> same to you, shannon. >> all right. we will be right back on "the kelly file." so let us not be blind to our differences and if we cannot now end our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity. for in the final analysis our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's future -- and we are all mortal. engineered holiday excitement.

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go to facebook.com/thekellyfile. thanks for watching. this i i i i i i live from america's news headquarte headquarters, a much smaller crowd takeing to the streets of ferguson, missouri tonight.

so far, the protests have been peaceful. st. louis county police now telling a rifle was taken from one of its patrol cars. there may be a lot of tardy guests arriving for thanksgiving dinner this year, if they can get there at all. blame a nor'easter and a frigid storm threatening the upper midwe midwest. air travelers aren't fairing much better. h hundreds of flights have been canceled. "hannity" starts right now. welcome to "hannity." and this is a fox news alert. darkness has fallen on ferguson yet again tonight as law enforcement is bracing for yet another round of possible violence. now, on tuesday st. louis county police report that 5