so what kind of plan will i stick with? my plan! get your plan. go to fit2me.com and enter the on-screen code word to get started. ifs . hello and welcome to justice. thank you for joining us tonight. the latest tonight on the cia interrogation report. one guest who actually says that senator diane feinstein is an american hero. and trey gowdy weighs in. senator feinstein released her intelligence senate report, bemoaning america's treatment of the 9/11 detainees, our enemies, as a stain on our values in history. my response, people who kill

thousands of innocent americans have no right to gentle and humane treatment. and i, for one, will not hang my head in shame because the cia did what the president, his cabinet, and congress thought was right in a time of war. let alone, apologize to those who killed us. and by calling it a torture report, the senator turns our enemy into the victim. >> the cia's actions, a decade ago, are a stain on our value and on our history. >> and now calls for criminal prosecution of the american torturers. articles on how to prosecute americans. calls to actually compensate the detainees. and suggestions that the u.n. investigate us for violating international law. context, dianne, context.

september 11th 2001, 3,000 of us killed in new york, washington and pennsylvania. we don't know who the enemy is, where they're located, what their mission is. and fearing another attack we act to get information. rules are adopted by the president, the national security adviser, the attorney general, the justice department while congress authorizes the use of military force. >> what happened here was that we asked the agency to go put in steps and to take programs and put in steps to kill the bastards who killed on 9/11 and make sure it didn't happen again. >> i was in new york on that sunny afternoon, i had friends at the new york trade center. and as i walked through the ashes in the rubble, i wondered how my friends died. were they burned alive, crushed to death, or did they jump to

their deaths? and dianne, you're worried about blowing cigar smoke into a detainee's face? hell, i had a judge do that to me during the trial. i got over it. their mission is to kill us. so while their allah says kill the infidel, you say we should be kinder to them. should we have matinees at gitmo? how about exercise classes. hell, the president said one detainee took up yoga so he would never be a danger, and now he is walking at home. are you interested in saving the enemy at the expense of americans? you say one thing and you do another. you support drone killings of americans without due process, no arrest, no indictment, no trial, just kill them with a drone. and you justify the drone

killings of american citizens who have gone to work with al qaeda, but we can't waterboard al qaeda themselves to save an american citizen? so did we get actionable intelligence? john mccain says no, dick cheney and john brennan say yes. honestly, i don't know. i don't know who to believe. but what i do know is that the obama white house and eric holder investigated whether any crimes were committed during those interrogations. and guess what? no charges ever filed. now, the fact that barack obama who has spent the last six years of his presidency blaming george bush for everything but his golf score didn't file charges, tells me there was nothing to prosecute. not to mention doing so might have embarrassed high-ranking democrats like nancy pelosi, who

know about everything happening and did nothing. so why now? besides the obvious political gamesmanship, who was clamoring for this? where was the drum beat for the gitmo terrorists? do we even need to have the discussion and point the blame at ourselves when they attacked us and our government did its best to protect us? now, there were no follow-up attacks now were there? so what was gained? there was nothing new in your report. and nothing prosecutable. all you have done is jeopardize americans abroad, create recruiting material for fanatic jihadists, and in true fashion, throw our allies under the bus yet again. i for one am tired of american apologizists like you, those who

put their lives on the line like the cia and law enforcement. they, and not you, have the high moral ground. you and your namby pamby let's be friends hog wash. and while you're at it dianne, what is your solution? have you read the papers lately? those americans are being beheaded by the muslim fanaticics. you know what i think? i think you have been in washington too long. your naivete is dangerous. and simply apologizing to those, is naive. get the hell out of your ivory tower, put on your big boy pants and start to draw a moral distinction between those who live to murder americans and innocent americans who rely on

you for their safety. if you commit the ultimate crime, to me you forfeit your right to freedom. we should be allowed to purge our senseabilities of you and not be required to endure your existence for a moment longer than is absolutely necessary. and that is my open. tell me what you think on my facebook page or twitter at judge jeanine, hash tag, justice open. and with me now, judge michael mukasey, attorney general under president bush. at a time with all of this craziness, your reaction to this report. >> it is a disaster from so many standpoints that it is very hard to begin. one place to begin is what it means for the future. the cia will be demoralized. which will reverberate for maybe years, decades, we'll go through what we did in the '90s before

9/11 with a cia that was spooked by past investigation and was reluctant to stick its neck out. i think the next president will be severely handicapped by going into the office with the cia, that is like the one we had back in the '90s. >> and what is interesting, with the bombings in africa and the uss cole, i mean, we were not even in a war footing. and so you know the cia was kind of gun shy at that point. but let's talk about this whole issue of water boarding for once and for all. was the cia given authority to do this? >> yes. >> okay, was it torture, and was it illegal? >> no, and no. there is a -- torture is defined -- there was at the time one torture statute that defined torture as acting under color of law so as to cause somebody severe physical or mental pain

and suffering. severe physical pain or suffering was not defined. mental pain or suffering was defined in durational terms, that is, it had to last more than just a short time. and you know what? our navy s.e.a.l.s are still waterboarded as part of their training. they don't endure pain or severe psychological damage either. it causes panic, that is it. >> once this program ended, judge, this waterboarding -- >> the waterboarding stopped before i got to washington. i got to washington in 2007. i was told to review the memos that analyze this to find out whether i disagreed with them. i did not disagree with them but i found that the program had had not included waterboarding for years, since probably 2003. not because anybody thought it was illegal. but because we didn't need it. we had already gotten so much intelligence as a result of

interrogating terrorists that we didn't need to water board anymore, there wasn't anybody around who needed that. >> i think you said 2003 -- >> it was the last time anybody was waterboarded. >> judge, i read something interesting. it said something like until 2003 there was really no one in charge. i mean, it is almost like having a police department of the cia over there with like no police chief. is that not accurate? >> that is completely false? >> why is dianne feinstein doing this, judge? >> i'm not clinically trained so i can't give you an analysis. >> psychological -- >> right. >> but she believes something horrible was done. now, the obama administration and eric holder and a special prosecutor, i understand, filed no charges. they investigated this, correct? >> before eric holder came into office he told the whole country that a -- that a reckoning is

due for these processes, and then he took the representative and unleashed him to conduct an investigation that lasted for three years. on a friday they released a press release saying no charges would be filed. this is after the case was investigated initially in the eastern district of virginia and they didn't find anything. >> and what is amazing, nobody has better information than you on this thing. and yet, the obama administration is not coming out and saying the special prosecutor said there was nothing there. the president now comes out saying you know, we should be better than this. better than what? >> i give up. better than what? this is not an exercise in self-definition, this is an exercise in self-preservation. >> judge michael mukasey, thank you so much for joining us. >> you're welcome. >> and coming up, she thinks this report was an act of

integrity, and that senator feinstein was an american hero. and how far should we go in getting information from our enemies during a time of war? please tweet me @judgejeanine. ...copd maintenance treatment... ...that helps open my airways for a full 24 hours. you know, spiriva helps me breathe easier. spiriva handihaler tiotropium bromide inhalation powder does not replace rescue inhalers for sudden symptoms. tell your doctor if you have kidney problems, glaucoma, trouble urinating, or an enlarged prostate. these may worsen with spiriva. discuss all medicines you take, even eye drops. stop taking spiriva and seek immediate medical help if your breathing suddenly worsens, your throat or tongue swells,... you can get hives, vision changes or eye pain, or problems passing urine. other side effects include dry mouth and constipation. nothing can reverse copd. spiriva helps me breathe better.

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democrats democrats on the senate intel committee under fire for releasing controversial previously classified information. my next guest says that it is an act of integrity and that senator feinstein is an american hero. so was it a thing to do with integrity? >> hi, judge, thank you for having me. >> hi, coco, you're a lawyer, how could you possibly think a document created without even questioning the accused or any of the witnesses makes any sense at all?

>> judge, senator feinstein is an american hero. and releasing this report is the best thing we can possibly do. because look, there is obviously controversy about what was done with all of these detainees, and the best thing to do in a democracy and a representative republic which is what we have is to put the information out there and let the people decide whether it was appropriate or not. and i don't think it was appropriate. what was done in my name is abysmal. >> all right, so you don't think that it is appropriate that people should decide. don't you think the fact that the justice department has already investigated this. barack obama comes in and is going to straighten everything out. they said there was no crime committed. and now years later they have one week left in the senate. the dems come out and do this while americans are in custody about to get their heads beheaded. what is that about? >> well, i don't think they're saying there was no crime committed. >> coco --

>> you're right, but that doesn't mean there was not a crime committed. that means they didn't have the political will to pursue it at the justice department level. but the investigation needed to be conducted and the justice committee was the right place to do it and just because there was no prosecution doesn't mean there was no crime. but what is important is that we're getting this information out there. and if you're so outraged that the report has been released then you must be outraged at what the report has disclosed. >> i'm not outraged at all. i'm outraged thinking whether my friends jumped or the plane landed on their body, that is what i'm outraged about. i think even you say it, a big stick and a gun and a dungeon is not the way to resolve problems, do you believe that, coco? >> i do believe that. now look, i do not believe that 9/11 should have been met with nothing, okay? i was a fan of the afghanistan war, a supporter of it.

and i think that what america needed to do was come back with a vengeance. but pulling people off the streets and putting them in a dungeon and raping them with hummis is not the way to do it. >> did our people know? what is the damage, what is the harm? >> 26 -- well, first of all because 26 people didn't even do anything by the cia's own record. so we tortured 26 people out of 119. -- but it wasn't torture, we just had the attorney general -- >> by the way, they approved it. i just had the man here. >> okay, when ashcroft approved this, he was in the hospital on sedatives -- >> what he did was say let comey

decide, he is out of the aig. and what obama said, if there was anything wrong it wouldn't have been done. let me ask you, we didn't know who they were, and who hit them. i saw the plane go into the building and people said it was a small plane, how are we supposed to get information? >> we're supposed to get information by the way that we have always conducted intelligence work. by investigating, by putting -- >> who -- >> by making friends in the field. but look, when i was in school we learned about what the nazis did in the holocaust. and they tortured people. and we were taught that to take people and string them on a rack and beat them until they talked, that is what the bad guys did. and we're the good guys, okay? and we're supposed to be better than this. >> we are better than all of that. i don't want to be better than them if they're going to kill them. you want to talk about the nazis. do you really think if we left

hitler alone and tried to reason with him, six million jews wouldn't have died? they would have continued to kill him. anyway, coco, loved having you on. we have to go. >> all right, coming up, a new report on isis brutality. this time against christian children. stay with us. it's just ordinary fleece but the comfort it provides is immeasurable. the america red cross brings hope and help to people in need every 8 minutes, every day.

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horror and disbelief tonight at the report of four christian children beheaded at the hands of isis militants in iraq. the leader of the anglican church in baghdad says the children were murdered because they refused to denounce jesus and convert to islam. with me, father gerald murray,

all right, father, all the children were under 15. they refused to say they would follow mohammed. and the vicar himself has since moved to israel, what do you know about this, father? >> this is horrible, but it is in line with what isis has been doing in mosul and syria and other places. they basically tell christians either you convert or we'll kill you. many of them fled, but these unfortunate victims in the baghdad area couldn't flee. they're kids, for crying out loud. and the idea you convert to a religion because you're threatened with death, it is a horrible, horrible crime. >> you know what, father, i say to myself, these people are psychopaths and sociopath. >> this is saying islam is the only religion, everything else is false and if you don't agree

with me we will kill you. this is the exact opposite of what god reveals -- >> i don't know where they are, who have you spoken to lately? >> i don't have too much contact with muslims, but i do know in places like lebanon and morocco, there is much more understanding. it used to be that way in syria and iraq. after the war the fanatics took over and we were in big trouble. >> even converting, that is not a guarantee you will live. some people still think you're an infidel. you're a christian, you read about this in your outrage, i'm furious, why do we just say oh, that is terrible and move on. >> part of it in the western world there is an antipathy to christianity because of morals and code.

we preach a code they don't like. they become very silent. i remember i was disappointed. i read more about yazidis when they were attacked. i am in favor of everybody having freedom of religion. christianity is the basis of western civilization. it's under attack -- it is time for the u.s. government and others -- >> how about the pope? >> well, the pope has spoken out. i hope will do more of it. and it is true. the pope is in a difficult position because he doesn't want to create more problems. >> he is not in a difficult position. we are his flock, what is difficult about him saying this is unacceptable. >> well, you remember when pope benedict criticized mohammed and his religion, some were killed. on the other hand, he has been very clear. isis should be stopped. government should fight it. that really is a good message.

>> so what do you think about in light of all of this and hillary clinton says we have to understand and quote, respect and empathize our enemies. >> well, it is a little like hug a thug in criminal justice. you can't do that when it comes to people killing innocent children. think about it. i have kids in my parish. some nut comes in and says this is a knife, you have to follow? these people have to be stopped. >> they do indeed, father murray, thank you for joining us, be sure to join me saturday december 27th. when father murray will join us again. coming up, the one and only congressman, tray gowdy. and if he thinks the cia report should have been released. that is next. the volkswagen golf was just named motor trend's 2015 car of the year.

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live from america's news headquarters, i'm patricia stark. that $1.1 trillion spending bill now on the way to the president for his signature. the senate passing the bill, 60/40, the sole exception, the department of homeland security which only has funding until december 27th. liberals upset about the banking repeal legislation, some are unhappy it doesn't challenge president obama's immigration move. meanwhile, marcus mariota is this year's heisman trophy winner, the first oregon duck to win the trophy. his margin of victory was the second widest in heisman history. i'm patricia stark, back to

justice with judge jeanine. welcome back to justice, earlier, i spoke with south carolina congressman trey gowdy about whether or not he believes the report should have been released. his grilling of jonathan gruber, and about his hunt for answers in the benghazi probe. take a look. oh, to be a fly on the wall, congressman, he join is us now, the chair of the select committee on benghazi. congressman, thank you for joining us. i'm going to start with gruber and his testimony this week. he is -- we agree, he is a arrogant, condescending, he says they wrote the cbo,so they

wouldn't tax, we agree he is in it for the money. you're a prosecutor, perjury here, fraud? >> well, i think what is going to happen if it has not already happened is chairman issa, or the incoming chairman will get the documents. if you recall from the hearing he really didn't want to give us what he considers to be his work product. because he wants to minimize the roll he played in the drafting of the aca now. but if you look at the documents he was very proud of being the architect. and he may have testified to different things before that may have been contained in this document. so we're going to go back and get these documents. what disappointed me the most, judge, was he really believes that lack of transparency, being able to fool the voter is worthwhile if you really like the piece of legislation. >> i'm going to move on to benghazi. now, you're the chair of the select committee on benghazi. the hearings have been going on

and one as recently as this week. there is a new poll out, congressman, that says that the majority of americans still want to know what happened at benghazi. suggesting that they don't already have the answers. do you think we'll ever get those answers? >> i think we will, and i was actually very encouraged by that poll. the numbers are actually going up. which tells me that my fellow citizens have this innate sense that something wrong happened in benghazi. they just want the politics to kind of stand down and treat it like it is a serious professional investigation. and we have been low key in terms of drama. there has been very little drama with our committee. but there has been a lot of hard work. and when we produce our final product it will be the definitive final accounting. and we'll do our dead level best to answer questions in a fact centric, apolitical way, however long that takes us.

>> what is interesting, you say there is no drama. clearly i remember with some of the other hearings on benghazi there was always a lot of drama but that doesn't seem to be the case here. you have great people on the select committee. a lot of them lawyers, a lot of them understand how to go through records and evidence. so can we expect that you will be calling susan rice, and hillary clinton before your committee? >> i see no way to answer all the remaining questions surrounding benghazi without talking to every principal and both of those folks would be principals. secretary clinton was the secretary of state at the time. she is -- you know, i heard last week that you know, well, she has already been talked to by the arb. we don't know what they asked her. there is no transcript of that. i think my fellow citizens are entitled to see 12 pretty good questioners examine the person who was the secretary of state at the time. and susan rice is involved in

the perpetrating of this myth surrounding a video. she has never been before a congress. it is clear, judge, we were fed a false narrative. i think a republic as old as robust as us can handle the truth as to why we were told something that was not a truth in the aftermath of benghazi. >> very disturbing, very disturbidisturb i ing. finally, let me go to the cia. i don't know that there was anything in the report that we didn't already know. but how do you think the rest of the world perceives us or sees us not just in terms of what was done by the cia according to senator dianne feinstein's report. but bleeding it out, saying we want to be transparent. what do you think in light of that report? >> well, judge, i can tell you

among the top ten things keep me up at night, what other countries think of us would not be on that list.ink there is a tinge of jealousy that we are a country that can debate issues like this, where as other countries wouldn't discuss this. they wouldn't discuss it privately, much less publicly. and my guess is our allies are probably thinking the same thing that i'm thinking, which is $40 million. you didn't talk to any witnesses and the republicans quit participating. what kind of investigation is that? >> but doesn't that say -- doesn't that speak volumes to you? you know, it is like you're going to try a case and not put on the victim, the witness, the eyewitness on the defendant, but you're going to have a conclusion. it is absurd, but even more than that. you know, to go out there and bleed all over what we did and how sorry we are and we want to be transparent. are the other countries laughing at us? and congressman, let's talk about the allies, where some of

these other guys apparently were sent where some of the prisoners were sent to other countries we threw them under the bus like poland and a few others. >> well, i mean, i do think -- we ought to be concerned to a certain extent with what our allies think of us. and we certainly never want to do anything to embolden our enemies. but i have to be honest with you, i mean, i am so at peace with the morality and the character of this country that i really don't care what other countries think of us. i care more about what we think of ourselves. and i talked today with tommy cotton, who is an incoming senator from arkansas who served our country with great distinction. and you know, we can debate what torture is, i mean, to me, torture is listening to mick mulvaney sing. we can debate what torture is, what we cannot debate is what

this administration uses drones to kill people. so if you were going to give somebody a choice between being killed with a drone or having water poured on your head which would you pick? >> without a doubt, and very, very clear. congressman trey gowdy, always good to see you and have you on the show, thank you. >> yes, ma'am, thank you. >> and coming up, hollywood hacked, leaked e-mails have many of hollywood's top stars ticked off. who is responsible and why you should care. so,as my personal financial psychic,

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a high profile breach in cyber security, possibly by north korea, the possibility of biggest stars released, including contracts, salaries. previous techniques to keep their information private now all public. and the dirty details coming up. first, who could have done this? with me is a cyber security expert, morgan wright. do we know who is responsible for this hacking? >> judge, on one hand, probably two fingers, i would lay a guess to north korea is probably responsible, because of the timing of the movie and where a lot of this information filtered out from. >> i am reading an e-mail

regarding kim jong-un baiting come comedy. they wanted this thing cancelled. it is coming out on christmas day. can we expect more of these e-mails to be released? how much more damage can they do? >> i don't think they scratched the surface on this. this is the poster child campaign. i spoke at a conference, where we were talking about data breach insurance. the fundamental shift in thinking people have to think, it is not if you're going to be hacked it is when. and if you put your personal data and storing it, it is almost like hoarding. people have to clean out all of this stuff, that is the real danger that has been out for years. e-mails, personal information, now coming out. >> all right, so this is now according to you morgan, not a scenario where sony's particular vulnerability that they had, it is just cyber security in

general, is that what you're saying? >> this is an extremely sophisticated state-sponsored type of activity. and i used to train entities, including the fbi. when they come out and say this would have gotten past the defenses of 90% of the companies out there this is extremely sophisticated. it doesn't relieve sony of their responsibilities, they will probably spend $160 million fixing this problem. this shows you this was not just an angry employee, this is clearly serious stuff. >> all right, thank you so much for being with us. and now the leak that is rattling the nerves of hollywood's a-listers, including angelina jolie, brad pitt, and george clooney, and pulling back the curtains on what really goes on in tinsel town, the reporter. all right, is angelina jolie a minimally talented spoiled

brought from crazyland? >> that is up for discussion, that is the opinion of one very powerful producer who sent an e-mail to the head of a very powerful entity, and it was then leaked. >> all right, you're the head of the hollywood reporter. what is going on? how does hollywood react to this? what do you think the price of this will be, not financially but to individuals and to sony? >> this is the biggest story in hollywood in years. the fact that an entire studio has been made completely transparent, everything that goes on, from the financials to big movies to what stars are paid to everyday e-mails to the head of the company. to different stars, writers and directors. everything is out there now. again, i don't think we have seen the last of this. we got another e-mail dump today, initial documents, this is only the beginning of it. >> amy pascal, is she the

president? >> she is the co-chair, the highest ranking chairman. >> she bumps into angelina jolie, who already knows she has been called a minimally talented brat, i mean, if looks could kill, let me tell you, amy would be lying on the floor. but as we go forward with this thing what is going to happen to e-mails in general? are people going to stop using them? >> that picture was actually from a hollywood reporter event earlier this week. i was actually standing near there. but i think -- actually this is going to change the culture of hollywood. i think everyone around town is now thinking about the things that they put in e-mails, and the things that they may not want publicized, maybe talking candidly about an actor, maybe getting angry at someone, saying something they didn't really mean. those type of discussions are all happening right now. and this hack is really going to change things. >> you know what is interesting, it occurs to me you know we

found out the nasa was collecting and doing all this data collecting and adding e-mails and phone records and everything else. then you start saying to yourself maybe i should stop doing this. you would think that people in hollywood would you know understand they can't use regular e-mail, because what people do is put the name dot com or the name g-mail, or whatever. how could they be so stupid to engage in this kind of discussion by e-mail? did they think it was private? >> you know, people do this stuff. think about your e-mail, my inbox, everybody has casual conversations via e-mail that you don't think about the ramifications of. and would anybody want their e-mail inbox flashed in "the new york times"? i don't know. >> all right, we have north korea, kim jong-un saying we

didn't do it, we didn't do it. whoever did it, kudos to them. now iran is being mentioned. where is that coming from? >> well, iran is one of the countries implicated in these types of attacks. now, north korea there is a particular film about the leader of north korea that is about to come out. and in fact, these people that are hacking, which they call themselves the guardians of peace, they have specifically referred to the quote, movie of terrorism, which is their words for this movie, the interview. so there is -- as they say there is a motive out there. whether it is north korea or whether it is something they knew about or sponsored or facilitated, we don't know. but there is a particular reason to think that this is the reason it happened. >> should be interesting to see how well that movie does. and sony pictures -- >> type of publicity. >> and they're going forward with the release on christmas day, correct? >> yeah, amy pascal has been

very defiant about this. she says nobody is going to tell us what movies they can and can't release. and they're going ahead on christmas. >> all right, matt bellamy from hollywood reporter, thank you so much for joining and this is your last chance to vote in tonight's insta poll -- (vo) nourished. rescued. protected. given new hope. during the subaru "share the love" event, subaru owners feel it, too. because when you take home a new subaru, we donate 250 dollars to helping those in need. we'll have given 50 million dollars over seven years. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru.

we're for an opens you internet for all.sing. we're for creating more innovation and competition. we're for net neutrality protection. now, here's some news you may find even more surprising. we're comcast. the only isp legally bound by full net neutrality rules. . breaking news out of the senate working late on this saturday night. breaking news out of the senate working late on this saturday night. a major procedural hurdle has been cleared and now they're voting on the final passage of the spending bill. on the end of this long road to pass this spending bill here to

run most of the federal government through the end of the fiscal year. that would be fall. there's one caveat here. this would only fund the department of homeland security as it pertains to immigration until late february. this is the culmination of the series of events here on capitol hill. it has been colored by immigration. ted cruz from texas, he held up the process along with other conservative senators wanting a vote trying to say that president obama's'bfpp executiv order on emgracious wimmigratio unconstitutional. they got a vote on making a point of order that this was unconstitutional. it failed. senate majority leader harry reid came down to the floor and told cruz that this was "wrong, wrong, wrong" and that on a spending bill, this isht to challenge the president on executive orders. they are v the final spending bill. we should have a result here in

about 15 minutes or so. >> thanks so much. earlier this week, we heard of how pope francis said all animals can go to heaven. the holy father reportedly made the declaration that got all the tails wagging while consoling a young boy whose dog had died. not so turns out the story misquoted something by the pope over 30 years ago. there's no evidence the current hope said anything along those lines. i wish he would. so many of us have dogs, cats and pigs as pets. they are part of the family. the reported comments, though untrue, got animal lovers around the world thrilled at the thought of our furry friends waiting for us at the pearly gates. hopefully the hope does tell us that all dogs do go to heaven. those are my kids and my dogs. those are me with the dogs when

i was younger. i will believe that all of my former four-legged friends are looking down on me and barking or as in the case of my pigs, oinking. do we have a picture of the pigs? now to the results of tonight's poll. we asked how far should we go to get information from our enemies in time of war? m whatever it takes. i'm an american, i believe in the cia. if the victims of 9/11 could speak, they would say as far as needed to squeeze every last drop of information out of them. so sad. people jumped from the twin towers. people are still not accounted for. 3,000-plus deaths, families without loved ones. i would go very far. if we torture the people, what makes any different from them? here is what makes us different. they attacked us.

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