lower salford, pennsylvania. bill: heavy way to start the work. we'll keep you updated on sydney and pennsylvania. martha: we'll see you back here tomorrow. >> breaking news right now. as we've been reporting out of sydney, australia, where a terrifying ordeal for hostages by a self-declared islamic sheikh is now over. thanks for joining us this monday. i'm leland vittert in for jon scott. >> imheather nauert in for. in the downtown in the heart of sydney, australia, listen to this. [. [gunfire]

heather: that drama played out. as frightened hostages making a break for freedom. running to officers and some appeared injured and in need of medical assistance. this follows an intense landoff followed more than 16 hours. groups of hostages managed to get out at different types. we don't know how they got out or if they were released of the police spent hours negotiating with the gunman. he is an iranian refugee with a violent criminal past. >> we have fox team coverage. greg palkot with breaking details from london. james rosen live from the white house where the obama administration has been monitoring the situation overnight and laura tunstil live from australia. you what is going on now and how did it play out the past hour or so?

evidently we did lose laura's signal from australia. you can just imagine the chaos from the scene and overwhelming amount of cell phone traffic. there were reports about possibility of a explosion. you see a bomb be tech. often times they jam the cell phone signals. heather has more. heather: the local police say this is over. we do not have all the answers yet. greg palkot has been monitoring this throughout the night. joins us live from london with more. greg, what do we know and do we know if they got the suspect yet? >> reporter: heather, that is unclear. we have had not a physical glimpse of him being brought out we assume not in good condition with the rounding of gunfire. they confirmed to fox news that the siege is over with a real bang. we'll tell you what happened in the dramatic climax. the 49-year-old iranian refugee

with a criminal record in australia was responsible for this. he walked into a cafe in the center of bustling sydney, the biggest city in australia, with a gun and took maybe around 20 people hostage in that cafe. he made them go up to the window. made them put their hands against the window. hold up a banner with islamic writing on it. at one point in the day five hostages were released but in fact probably fled, ran away. there was a tense, several hours following that. where the police were telling us that they wanted to negotiate. they wanted to make this end peaceably. they wanted to save lives. and then in the past 45 minutes, the climax. the best reporting we're getting, twice, is that he shot first. that the, that the iranian refugee shot first, either at the police or at a hostage. that triggered a fuse laud of --

fusillade of fire from the police. a blast. we believe that is one of the opening into the entryways into the calf fail. we saw five, six, maybe seven refugees running out. now we have total up to 12. then we understand police went inside. there was that 30-second long, life fire live fire of rounds into the cafe targeting we believe the shooter himself, the gunman himself. we watched what came out there. this is the sad part. we watched as many as five stretchers being brought out of that cafe. the reports and we do not have this confirmed with the police, but the reports there were two hostages killed, maybe as many as five injured in the final move by police. they weren't finished yet. they brought in a robot, remote-controlled device to check whether there was a bomb there. there had been threats coming from the individual that there

were bombs both in the cafe and in the central business district. they wanted to be sure. so far, we have not seen anything of that. we believe possibly there might be a few more hostages left inside. we don't have that confirmed. we have not, by our own visual take seen any, any proof that the gunman was taken out. just to wrap this up, isis was mentioned. he wanted an isis flag. there were some sort of believe there was some -- belief with some connection with terrorism in the mideast. there was some connection in twisted way. this man, man haron manness, sending letters to families of australian soldiers who went to afghanistan and were killed and these letters were nasty and ugly. he was brought into court on that.

he was charged and convicted on that. he was in court trying to change that charge. that was last friday. the court turned him down. that was last friday. he made attack on monday. very ugly scene. full police run-down on this. it was ugly end but prompted by this gunman, apparently mad bun man who took matters in his own hands. back to you guys. heather: he has a criminal record beyond that. could you speak to us about that. he was apparently involved in allegedly take involved in killing his wife or ex-wife? what can you tell us about that? >> reporter: it is a very twisted background to this gentleman. he was charged with being accessory to the death, the murder of his ex-wife, his partner at the time, another woman, was charged with the killing of his ex-wife. he was also charged with lewd, making lewd sexual advances on at least one individual. he in fact was pretty much

booted out of iran. he was a refugee from iran, even the iranians had some problems with him too. this was a man under surveillance. we heard early on from the police that they knew who he was. they saw him through the window. they saw him with a bandanna with arabic writing on it as well as a t-shirt and a vest and that, that pump action shotgun. so they knew who he was. they knew he was dangerous at at very least might have helped police targeting their first negative shunned and their decision, very important and lethal decision to move in heather. heather: greg palkot, monitoring this from london. so much information. we'll keep monitoring this. leland, you have more now. >> as this played out everynight, heather, washington closely monitored developments in sydney from the intelligence agencies all the way to the white house where they offered the australian government it required or needed. correspondent james rosen live at white house with the latest.

do we know if there is any american involvement in this? >> reporter: doesn't appear there is, leland. this all transpired in relative terms fairly quickly. the white house has been silent since the images of the security forces in sydney storming that cafe were beamed live. of course they don't want, officials here are not going to want to get out in front of the australian officials in announcing what has occurred and taking credit for the situation albeit from our own reporting and others without loss of life. the obama white house viewed this as terrorist incident clear from the get go as was the president's counterterrorism advisor lisa monaco, who briefed the president on it. the white house disclosed word of the briefing 9:35 p.m. eastern time last night, approximately four hours into the unfolding drama. it was then the united states government reached out to australia and offered any counterterrorism that the australians might have requested. we don't know any was provided

but again just in relative terms it doesn't seem that there was even time for the u.s. to scramble that kind of assistance together. the u.s. consulate in sydney is located about a block away from the lindt chocolat cafe where this crisis erupted. it was evacuated like other buildings in the martin square district. it remained closed. we got a message from the u.s. con so you sue late in sydney, advising all citizens it would remain closed on tuesday in sydney. all personnel at the consulate we're told are accounted for. very dramatic situation. anguishing one not only for the australians but for its allies around the world. united states has partnered with australia in the campaign against isis and that may have been a contributing factor in this event, leland. jon: we know isis called for attacks in australia by their followers. we'll see if that plays out as

well. aerials rosen from the white house, awaiting reaction from the administration as it plays out. heather? heather: our next guest says this hostage crisis appears another example of the long reach of jihadists. we have a former state department senior advise some christian, experts there are not saying this has anything to do with isis. it could be the act of just one man. is this new face of extremism that we're now seeing in the west? >> well it is something we've become more accustomed to recently. we saw this in boston, terrorists without a lot of a lost contact with outsiders engaged in terrorist act. we saw this very recently in ottawa, canada, not linked to a former terrorist cell or took upon himself to conduct a terrorist attack in the name of islam or jihaddism. this goes beyond what those in the west call core al qaeda or frankly core isis. it is part after broad political

movement, which is just tip of the spear which are jihadists in the middle east. heather: in a free society, how do you protect against something like this? >> if you have people engaged en a seditious security you need to take special measures. we did this to a limited extent against communists in the united states. certainly anyone going beyond the democratic process and as was in his case, some of the signs were there. these people, this gentleman emmy greated from iran to australia reported as a refugee. someone welcomed to your country sending hate mail who died for their freedom may come time to send them back where they came from. we'll have to get beyond political correctness. we're not talking about abridging fundamental rights but taking steps to defend our societies from people who want to use our freedoms to destroy our freedoms. heather: police in the sydney area were keeping an eye on this

guy. he was in court recently on friday. how do you keep a better eye on somebody and prevent this kind of thing. >> it is early days what this man was up to and truly what the full extent of his activities were and i don't want to say anything critical of the australian government at this point but i think with people who espouse this, who seek the unification of mosque and state, who advocate sharia instead of democratically enacted law, who want to destroy democracy, even if you don't throw them in jail, there are things you can do to prevent them from getting certain types of jobs and preventing them from getting weapons, things like that. of course it will be different, different speeds for different countries. different countries have different standards of freedom. all of us in the west should be looking at this. we've been very fortunate in the united states. we have a large population of muslims largely moderate, not inclined to jihaddism. we should use the asset against these crazies. >> interesting to note muslim groups came out in australia

condemning this. good to hear from them. guns have been banned, semiautomatic weapons have been banned in australia for 20 years. this guy had a shotgun. christian you will stick around next hour. we will check back in with you as we get more information on the breaking story. christian, thanks. >> we want to head actually to oust trail yaw. erly walsh channel nine, australia is one block from the scene. what is it like right now and take us back to how this unfolded? >> at the moment i'm at st. james port where the hostage as families gathered. they are ushered inside of this building with police with them a short time ago. an ambulance raced up and two paramedics ran inside the building. what that indicates that families of these hostages are incredibly distressed inside and

they are now also needing treatment. one block away though, this is where it all unfolding. there are ambulances on site. the riot squad, tactical police officers, it was an eerily calm night until about, oh, half an hour ago, when gunshots rang out across the city. we saw a male hostage run from the lindht cafe, 2:06 local time, one hour another group of hostages raced from the cafe shortly after. there was then the sound of gunshots, one after the other, a spray of bullets. police moved into, moved into the cafe and chocolate shop where multiple round of gunshots were fired. at least two hostages have been pulled to safety. we have seen that they have been loaded into ambulances and

rushed off to the hospital obviously with severe injuries. at this stage, we can't confirm the number or the severity of the injuries or the cashing walts but police have confirmed that the siege is over. so where i am at the moment i am with families who are waiting with bated breath. you can only imagine the horror of seeing live pictures coming in, it is just, words almost can't even summarize the horror that these families have gone through watching this all play out on television. >> certainly a horrific time for those families to have to sit there and watch and wait and know that their loved ones are inside. i want to understand a little it about the sort of the feelings there in australia. a couple months ago were all those arrests after potential islamic suspects after isis made

the threat that they wanted to publicly behead someone inside of australia. we know australia are involved in the military actions in iraq and syria against isis as well. did you get the feeling people on the streets were worried about potential terrorist attacks? did this catch everyone off-guard here as we're just a week away from christmas? >> i have to say i don't think this has caught anyone unawares. this is something we felt was a long time in coming. the prime minister, tony abbott, had upgraded the terror threat a few months ago after those warnings did come from isis. this is something that i think everyone has known this was going to happen. this was not a matter of if. it was a matter of when. now we can confirm that the sydney sheikh, the

self-proclaimed sheikh man monnis is the alleged gunman inside of the cafe. we have not confirmed if he is alive or one of the casualties from the scene. >> you covered this. this is someone known to authorities. we know he was in court on friday. greg palkot reported on friday. was this guy known as radical or a somebody has a screw loose and writing nasty letters to soldiers that died in afghanistan and? was he professed violence against the state? what kind of feeling was there in the country? >> it is my understanding this is a radical who was definitely on the watched list by police. he is someone known to police. he does have a list of extensive charges. the list is long and it is extremely worrying.

as you mentioned they include accessory to murder, sexual assault and also a case very famous here in australia. he was the man who sent letters to family members who were, to family members about soldiers who were killed in afghanistan. this was to garner, of course, media attention by the hate mail campaign. and once again he is success fullly garnered attention. he has captivated not only the media, he has captivated the nation and now the world. >> early walsh, just about a block away from where all this went down. as families await word what happened to hostages inside this cafe in sydney. 3:18 in the morning. it will be a long time till sunrises and this plays out. heather has more. thanks. >> leland, i'm struck by many soft pictures we were seeing there. tragedy and fear on faces of

those people as they ran out of that building right there. we are getting lots of fast-breaking details in the siege in sydney. it is now over. david roe, defense and national security correspondent with the age and sydney morning herald. joins us from the capital of that country in australia. david, this is europe area where you cover. are you hearing anything about any possible ties to isis or are they thinking this guy is just a lone wolf? >> look, as appears to be increasingly the case with these sort of attacks he was a lone wolf, he was not part of a established terrorism network however he may have been inspired by isis in some way. for example, by the, the documents that they put out on the internet over the past few months which have urged supporters to carry out these random, spontaneous, low-tech attacks against sit earnings particular live the countries

involved in the coalition against islamic states here in iraq and syria. so it appears to me at this stage if he was, he did consider himself a supporter of islamic state but was not part of any properly-established network. heather: that is part of the big fear on the part of your government there? >> yeah, exactly right. our intelligence agencies and our federal police have been saying for quite some time really their nightmare scenario at the moment which is this kind of lone wolf attack which is very hard to predict because it is spontaneous. usually involves one or maybe two people. so you don't have people talking to each other on the phones and plotting and planning in elaborate ways which is what usually allows the intelligence and the police agencies to keep up on these sorts of things. rather they are, it is a spur of the moment thing. it is very, very hard to stop. heather: yeah. in terms of a broader war and the fight against terrorism there on the part of your

government, talk to us about some of the efforts the government has made. they have done a lot to counteract this. counterterrorism units set up at airports to stop fighters. joined the u.s.-led coalition to stop isis. your government is doing a lot. is there a sense that's working? >> well i mean it is all relatively new at the moment so i suppose it's hard to say but you're absolutely right. we passed three lots of legislation already in the last six months on national security and counter terrorism measures. there is a fourth one sill to come. they include things like, it is now a crime for instance for an australian to go to al-raca region of syria which is islamic state's heartland. that will probably be expanded to aleppo and kobani. merely by going there

australian, unless you can prove you were visiting a family member or -- heather: david, pardon me, we're up against a hard break as we call it here. we'll have to let you go. sydney morning herald. joining us from the capital of australia.

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as a radical. we want to head to the scene. laura tunstal, reporter with channel 9 australia. have police secured the area. or are they looking for the possibility there are more bombs or anything else out there? >> reporter: leland, we have seen the bomb disposal unit going into the building. they have sustain taken bomb-detecting robot to try to secure the building. there was some reports that the gunman made threats there were explosives. that's what they're doing at moment, literally trying to -- [inaudible]. we had confirmation in the last few minutes that the police have concerned that there are two people who are dead. one of those we believe is the gunman himself. the other, one of the hostages. this news is absolutely devastating outcome. and you know, [inaudible] this will be heard right across australia. thinking it wag over an hour ago

when police stormed into this building and we heard gunfire. they launched stun grenadesunaids out of the side of the building there. which had hostages released in a couple of ways. we saw some this afternoon managed to escape. we heard shortly before the gun fire, six hostages came out of the building then. then there was this gunfire and stun grenades that went off. we saw a number of victims rushed to hospitals. we don't have any words exactly how many of the hostages were injured but i can confirm two fatalities. one of those is believed to be the gunman. leland: i hear the emotion in your voice. we're looking at some pictures of hostages who escaped. you can see on their face the relief as they come out from this cafe. take me back to those moments where you were hearing the stun

grenades and gunfire. did hostages stream out immediately? did police have to go in and get them? can you give us a timeline as that went down? >> reporter: we had five hostages that released or escaped this afternoon. there was a long period of nothing happening. i mean it was very quiet. we were told by police they were in negotiations with the gunman. we were waiting and waiting. it was shortly before 2:00 a.m. our time, so a little over an hour ago there was a loud banging noise. what we think now that was a side door of the building being thrown open and the hostages, a big group came rushing outside. police, looked like-[inaudible] police grabbed them and dragged them around the corner. it was then we believe police had gone into the building. that is when we heard gunfire and the stun grenades going off. presumably there were obviously

still hostages during that time. they were silence for a while before we heard more gunfire again. we saw the stretchers, paramedics going in and taking out the wounded. you know, it was loud. it was terrifying. there were a lot of bystanders here who have been here throughout the night on the edges of exclusion zones to watch what was unfolding. they were all obviously very shaken by what has unfolded. to hear that one of hose hostages has died is absolutely devastating. how long the siege has gone for. everybody was praying that it could end, peacefully. leland: certainly everyone hoped it did. is we're reporting on the gunman who is self-proclaimed sheikh in sydney, australia. we know he had been in court on friday for sending letters to australian soldiers and their

families who had died in battle and had very nasty things to say. this is picture of him. do you get the sense this was somebody from your sources who they were watching? did they think he was a radical? did they think he was advocating violence? was he just sort of angry? any ideas where the police where they were about this person and how close he was if they had any idea he was going to launch an attack? >> monis has been on the radar of police for a long time. back in 2009 he was first arrested for sending threatening letters. since then he has also, he was actually apparently currently out on bail and charged over a murder of his wife. that was in court at moment. he is also facing sexual assault allegations. he has been on radar a long period of time. he certainly exhibited a lost bizarre behavior in the past.

court appearance he chained himself to the steps of the courthouse. he certainly exhibited very erratic behavior in the past. as to whether police had any indication that that he could do something like this, and that will also form the investigation coming down and whether there was anything the authorities could have done to predict the tragedy we've seen happen tonight. leland: tragedy is probably the only word for it. laura tunstal with australia's broadcasting network in sydney, about a block away. thanks for bringing us a first-hand account how all this has gone down in the past hour or so in sydney. sad in every possible way. heather, as you were talking about a little while ago, couple months ago, the australian government pout put out a worn warning that isis called for attacks there and

self-radicalization. heather: we'll continue to cover a lot more developments from australia. up next we'll develop into a looming question, what is stopping something like this from happening in america, when we come back.

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stay happy and healthy in their own home. ♪ heather: it is a very busy morning here and a very busy morning, evening overnight in sydney, australia, where an attack took place at sort of a cafe in the central business district, part of sydney, australia. this ending about an hour and 15

minutes or so ago. a man named sheikh man haron monis. entered a cafe, a chocolate cafe, people were fathering, getting drinks, holding 17 hostages for close to 15 hours and this scene playing out. leland: 3:00 in the morning there in sydney. you're looking at pictures around you can hear some of the explosions and gunfire as that siege ended. laura tunstall, australia yeahs channel 9, two people were killed. one of which was the hostage and one was the gunman himself. that is still very unconfirmed information. and there are also reports of an a number of injuries for an extensive gunfight that went on inside the cafe. the sheikh a known radical

islamic there inside of sydney where they have been worried about these kind of terrorist threats for so long. joining us a.b. stoddard, columnist from "the hill" and charlie hirt, columnist from "the washington times." you watch the pictures coming out of sidey, awe trail yaw, and you have to -- australia, and you have to ask yourself, is this any country or city? >> any wannabe can easily hatch a simple plan without a lot of internet chatter, acting on their own and do whatever they want. we can't protect against this kind of activity in a free society when we don't have any warning. when they're not part of a network and devote day and inspired by, just a madman, can attack any deli or doughnut shop they want. we're only safe from this, as we know from mass shootings in movie theaters, in the airport

where people have to go through metal detectors. leland: charlie, this is interesting point ab brought up about free society. this guy sheikh ha ron, this guy was in court number of times in australia. a known radical. he sent very nasty letters to the mem family members of australian soldiers that died in battle in afghanistan. this gives you a pause how you balance the issue in the united states between free speech and hate speech? and at that level the point where police should be able to go ahead and arrest somebody or take somebody into custody because they advocate this kind of violence? >> clearly evident this problem will be with us for quite some time. it will not be over with the end of a war in some foreign country. these people are hell-bent to kill innocent people and will stop at nothing to do that.

and, ab is right in a free society there is nothing you can do about it. you can't prevent all these things from happening, which i think is why most americans, when they see this stuff play out, whether is in australia or here in the united states, they think about guns. and it's why, they think about personal gun ownership and being able to protect yourself, protect your phamly, protect your neighbors. it is why i think that "gallup poll" out, i think it was last week, that even among democratic voters, support for gun rights in america is at its highest in some 20 years. that's a pretty staggering thing. but it will always be that balance and, you know, i think it is sort of interesting in australia they have banned guns just about all guns for personal ownership yet somehow this

insane killer managed to get himself a, you know, a shotgun, my understanding that should have been banned. it pass part of the ban. leland: reporting has been it was a sawed off shotgun. after a couple massacres in australia, there was a massive gun control. a number of people turned in their weapons and didn't want them anymore. hailed by gun control advocates as the poster child for the way things should be. a number of folks said this is what should happen in the united states. ab, what does it say despite all the gun control they have in australia a guy with a sawed off shotgun walk into a cafe? >> that could happen even if they're not inspired by radical jihaddism. that can happen in any place at anytime as people have access to guns even when they're outlawed, different kinds ever them.

i think what we need to recognize here in this country we'll be dealing with homegrown terrorists and radicalism in this country that starts here. it is inspired by people overseas but it begins here. it is not necessarily plots that make it here from groups like isil overseas. that is something we'll have to devote resources to. when you mention this guy had a record and police knew who he was. we obviously can't devote all our resources to track everyone leaving a trail on line for their devotion to jihaddism. but we have to focus our attention on people that are paying attention to those groups and might want to begin something here and that's, just as we were talking about before whether or not you can protect every business, or public place, that is balancing act. >> charlie, i want to give you the last word on this, there in washington as you talk to your sources and folks in law enforcement, do you get the sense that the united states is number one in our intelligence community is number one, really worried about an attack like

this? and number two, dot folks in washington and fbi and cia, the nsa, feel they have the resources to be able to stop it? because as they often say they have to be right every time, somebody like this only has to be right once. >> well, i do think incidents like this, episodes like this tend to favor, put the wind at the back of the intelligence community. you know, conservatives in particular have been sort of wrought in recent years over all of the spying and the intelligence-gathering from the government and people were incredibly upset about what we learned, the lengths where the federal government was going to collect information about private citizens. you know, sometimes things like this sort of push the pendulum the other way and people start to say, okay, well, maybe, you know, maybe it's okay that they're collecting all of this data if they're able to, you

know, pinch out cases like this and stop them before something like this happens. leland: and that debate continues. obviously just now as we saw with the senate intelligence report on interrogation techniques. ab stoddard with "the hill." charlie hirt with the "washington times." heather: local reporters say two were killed and one was the hostage-taker. we're following all of the developments lifelive out of australia with this ending an hour and 15 minutes ago. sydney australia. we'll be right back.

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australia, is stuart cohen. can you confirm if some of the people inside have died and who they were? >> reporter: well at this point, heather, police are not obviously confirming. these are multiple media outlets reporting that a couple of people have died. reportedly the hostage-taker, man haron monis is one of the people dead. there are no names released and no official con firmmation from police. obviously in pictures from the siege, several people were being, seen being carried from the scene either on stretchers or in the harms of police and ambulance workers. at this point hard to say who the fatalities are until we get confirmation from police. just still speculation at this point. heather: stuart, overnight, it was reported that the hostage-taker claimed he had planted bombs. apparently one he claimed in that cafe and possibly one in another part of town. do we know anything about the

status of that? if that was in fact even true? >> reporter: well, police again were very tight-lipped all throughout the day about any claims or anything going on with the operation. they were saying they wanted to avoid inflaming the situation. at one point they did say or diddies count any reports that there about bombs planted in any other parts of the city. they were only dealing with the situation at the lindht calf fail. they would not talk about the operational status. they did not want to suppose give any reason for the hostage-taker in any way get inflamed and start causing any harm to the hostages. heather: certainly understandable. a lot of caution taking place. stuart cohen, with grn radio. we'll keep in touch and keep our folks here and overseas the latest. thank you. leland: heather, for more on this one we want to bring in alan colmes, host of the

alan colmes radio show and tammy bruce, radio talk show host and both fox news contributor as well. this brings up an interesting question here, this fellow the sheikh and gunman, was known to police there. he had been arrested before yet he was out of jail. it brings up this balance how do you prevent these kind of lone wolf attacks, alan in a free society? >> you can't. sadly in a free society unless you have martial law, unless you have a system where you do your time for the crime and get a chance to rehabilitate yourself and move on, in a free society, sadly incidents like this will continue to happen but -- leland: really chilling, tammy. at some level does this justify some of the broader powers that law enforcement has been wanting and has used in terms of increased surveillance in erps of it intercepting phone calls without wiretaps, those kinds of things. >> i think it is really circumstantial. it depends how urgent the threat. depend who is involved in the

threat. in this case this is a man with a criminal past that was known. didn't take a lot to find out what he was doing. he was publicly demonstrating. you knew where he stood. after september 11th we were dealing with complete unknown with emergeing and threats. as alan said in any free society you can know the who the criminals are. there are ankle bracelets and you can track people and there is still debate that as well. in australia you have individuals well-known and are so inclined. i think their immigration policy might change. leland: this fellow was a refugee from iran. a known radical. tammy, alan, stick around. we'll take a break and have more on unfolding situation in sydney, australia when we come back.

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leland: you're looking right now at sydney, australia. this is some video from when the hostage siege ended there. it is 3:54 a.m. in sydney. there was loud bang, followed by gunshots and explosions at that cafe in sydney where a gunman had taken hostages around 2:30 in the morning there. just about an hour 1/2 ago. the report is a gunman, a self-proclaimed sheikh of iranian decent, is dead and report of at least one hostage dead. we heard there were a number of hostages in there. we saw a number of them escape. we saw video of some of them injured there in sydney, australia, where obviously it is daybreak here in just about an hour 1/2 or so. the hostage siege is over. and now the fallout of this as it is happening. alan colmes, host of the alan colmes radio show. tammy bruce, radio show host and

fox news contributor here to continue to discuss. brings up so many questions how to prevent lone wolf terror attacks, people are worried about so long. we've seen attacks brought about here in the united states. just recently over the past week we've seen this fallout play out over the senate intelligence report as it related to enhanced interrogation techniques by the cia. tammy, does something like this justify the need for sometimes bending the law, perhaps some people say breaking the law in the interest of public safety? >> number and you don't have to break the law in order to do what you need to do to get the information you need. sometimes that will make certain people uncomfortable. some people say imprisonment is torture. you have to have a perspective and uniformed agreement about what torture is. but when it comes to getting the information we need, it can be pretty obvious. like the decision to let americans who left to go to fight with isis return. now that doesn't make a lot of sense for people.

you can actually, there is legal framework when it comes to aiding and abetting terrorism and revoking passports not letting them return. there are simple things we can do. every nation has to consider this when it comes to individual lone wolf. leland: alan, 30 seconds. >> torture we found in the report it was key found didn't work. furthermore we have constitution that rules against cruel and unusual punishment. we're signatories to the geneva convention and convention against torture. we have from business doing anything outside of the law. bush administration brought in lawyers to tell them what torture was okay to do it. and that was just also a way out of bound. >> we have to consider though summary executions when it comes to drone strikes by president obama. >> i'm not in favor of that either. i'm with you on that. >> up against a hard break. thank you. heather? heather: we're getting unconfirmed report that two people may be dead there. we're working to try to confirm that on our own. at least a dozen people have

either escaped or were released from that scene. we're told that the siege is now over but bomb disposal units are on the scene. we'll be back in an hour with more. (vo) nourished. rescued. protected. given new hope. during the subaru "share the love" event, subaru owners feel it, too. because when you take home a new subaru, we donate 250 dollars to helping those in need. we'll have given 50 million dollars over seven years. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru.

>> this is a fox news alert on a hostage crisis now over after more than 16 hours sparking fears of terrorism in australia's largest city. this is "outnumbered." today's hashtag one lucky guy, pete and he's outnumbered. glad to have you here today. >> glad to be here. >> your military expertise will be great to have. it's early tuesday morning already in sydney. and that -- and that was