thanks for watching. ms. megyn is next. i'm bill o'reilly. the spin stops here cause we're definitely looking out for you. breaking tonight on a day marked by what looks like a lone wolf terror attack overseas and an ongoing debate about how america has waged the war on terror. we tonight get our first chance to interview the man singled out by a controversial senate report produced by the democrats alone. and then attacked by some in the media, the man who personally interrogated khalid sheikh mohammed, the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. good evening and welcome to an extraordinary edition of "the kelly file" everyone. i'm megyn kelly. we have new details tonight on what may have inspired the lone gunman who staged a dramatic hostage taking in australia that ended with lee dead including the hostage taker. he was a self-described islamic

cleric who demanded police deliver him an islamic state flag as he held more than a dozen people at gunpoint. we will get to that later on in this broadcast. but first, tonight, we examine the controversial cia interrogation report from a perspective you have not heard. dr. james mitchell was approached by the cia in the months after 9/11, asked to develop a program to get more information from terror suspects. at the time intel suggested bin laden wanted to get ahold of nuclear weapons. and washington was very worried. before he was done, mitchell himself would not only help shape the controversial enhanced interrogation effort, but he was personally part of the team that questioned 9/11 mastermind khalid sheikh mohammed. joining me now, dr. james mitchell, who is a psychologist. dr. mitchell, good to see you tonight. thank you for being with us. you are in the air force, then the cia, 9/11 happened, you were

asked to help. how? >> they asked me to take a look at the manchester manual initially and figure out -- which is a manual that lists their interrogation strategies and figure out what sorts of resistance behaviors you might see on the part of detainees. after that later they asked me if i would look at the behavior that was engaging to see if he was using any of those resistant strategies. >> so you reviewed the manual al qaeda was using to teach its own fighters how to resist things like waterboarding and so on. you did that. and at some point you suggested means of overcoming that resistance. at some point they came to you and asked you personally to participate and actually conducting the interrogations? >> right. that's correct. what happened was he shut down

at one point in spite of what you hear in the senate report. >> zuveda. >> and they asked me to come back to the campus. and it was clear to me when i was at the campus listening to what people were saying that there was so much pressure about trying to headoff this second wave that was coming that they were going to use some kind of physical coercion. and so i have spent a lot of time in the air force -- school and i see what happens when people sort of make stuff up on the fly. and in the course of the conversations i said if you're going to use physical coercion, not that you should use physical coercion, but if you're going to use physical coercion, then you should use physical coercion that has been demonstrated over 50 years not to produce the kind of injuries we would like to

avoid. >> all right. let's just step back. the air force sere program something you developed. in a line or two tell us what it is. >> i didn't develop it. i was just a part of it. it's survival of asian resistance and escape. it's a program that's designed really to teach men and women to -- who are shot down behind enemy lines or taken captured or taken hostage to survive and return with their honor in tact. >> so the cia was already conducting interrogations of abu zebedah prior to coming to you saying, all right, james, we're now at the point where we need your help with that? >> no. i initially went out when being interrogated into the kinds of resistance -- >> let's just walk our audience through it. were you here in the united states and then asked to fly to this other location to participate in that?

>> correct. i was here in the united states. >> and can you tell us where you went? >> no. >> all right. it was a cia black spot where they had him. you look at ways to possibly break their resistance to our methods and the next thing you know you're on a plane to go to a cia black site to participate in the interrogation of one of the worst terrorists we're fighting. just as a man what was that like for you? you land, you walk into the room, are you scared? are you -- is he scared? what is going through your mind? >> well, i'm lost now in terms of which one you're talking about? >> starting with the very first one. >> but i didn't do the first interrogations -- >> the very first one you did, who was it of? >> first one i did was of

zebadah. >> so you as a man walk into this remote country, you're a regular guy to this point. you've been doing intel, but you're a man, you happen to have a certain area of expertise. what is it like to walk into this room and see this guy? >> well, it was clear that we were going to end up probably having to use physical coercion. and we were hoping that it wouldn't go to that. it wasn't that scary. it was a job. in terms of dealing with him it was engaging just like any other person. once you're in the mix of it, for me at least, the coercion part of it i didn't enjoy at all. but the engaging with him initially and attempting to get information out of him it was like engaging anybody else. i didn't feel like i was on a particular adventure.

i felt like i was working because i was concerned about these attacks that were potentially coming in the second wave. >> i want to say until tonight you have not fully told your story because you were under a disclosure agreement that's been loosened over the weekend. this is your response to the senate dems, no republicans, this is an extraordinary moment for you to be able to come on camera and tell this story. when you went into the room, the interrogation room, and of course you'll tell me what you can and cannot say, but how many men on our side were participating? men or women? >> i'm not allowed to give numbers at all. >> okay. were you the one actually conducting the techniques on abu zubedah or were you more of a background role? >> initially i was in a background role. then after he shut down and the enhanced interrogations were

approved, i was in an administration role. >> okay. did you personally waterboard him? >> yes. >> and are you able to tell us how many men that required to perform that operation? >> no, i can't tell you anything about numbers. >> okay. i understand when the cia first told you that waterboarding had been authorized they explained, i assume, the justice department has said this is okay, congress has said this is okay, the white house has said this is okay. do i overstate the message? >> you don't overstate it at all. i was in a meeting briefly to discuss it with george -- and d -- >> the head of the cia and the top lawyer at the cia. >> correct. and tenna turned to rizzo and said make sure this is legal before we go forward. i heard it in a private conversation. they were very, very careful to make sure that this thing has been approved.

so the situation that i found myself in personally was one where it was clear that we had been attacked. it was clear that there was a second wave coming. there was all these fears about nuclear devices and anthrax and multiple people dying and catastrophic thing and all this pressure not just from the cia but from washington and everywhere they were saying the gloves are off. we have to take extraordinary measures. that sort of stuff. and it was in the context of that that they were putting this program together. and they just wanted to be sure it was legal. >> and when you first administered the water boarding that had been approved by the doj, they had actually approved the number of seconds you could do, pour the water on the person's face and the breaks you'd have to take in between. when you did that, did you find that method too severe or too

light? >> that actually is a good question because it explains one of the issues that i have a problem with that's out in the press. basically says you can hold a single waterboard session for 20 minutes. that means the person can lay on the board for 20 minutes. and then you can administer water from 20 to 40 seconds allow the person to get a full breath and then go another 20 to 40 seconds. but it became clear to me during the first time we were doing that waterboarding that that was too much water. so what i did was i reduced the amount of time that we did pours. so for example if you look at page 76 of the cia i.g. report at the bottom, it says the average pour lasted about ten seconds. so what we decided to do was to

do lots of very small ones and only a couple of longer ones. we would do two that were 20 seconds and one that was 40 seconds. i don't know if you want to get that far -- >> but you changed the protocol. you wound up to make it to be less harsh than earp allowed to do. let me ask you this -- >> let me finish what i'm saying. >> go ahead. >> the net result of that though is the number of pours went up. the number of repetitions went up. so when they look there and say he was waterboarded 83 times. he wasn't waterboarded 83 times. there were 83 separate pours and each pour was on average about ten seconds. some were 40 seconds. some were 20 seconds. but we didn't feel it was -- i don't know how to say it any other way, we didn't feel it was right to use as much water as authorized. >> we're going to get to khalid sheikh mohammed in a minute, but sticking with abu -- nudity,

standing sleep deprivation, slap, were those all used? >> the ones you mentioned were used. >> the facial grab, the abdominal slap, the kneeling stress position, walling? >> walling was used. if they showed up on the list, they were used. we didn't typically use a lot of those stress positions. we didn't use any stress positions with zubaydah because he had an injury. >> okay. >> so what happened just so the people know because this is the thing the people don't know when they hear is we didn't just go in there and start waterboarding abu zubaydah. we practiced the emergency responses we were going to do, we went through where each person was going to be if there happened to be an emergency. and then and only then when we felt that we could do it safely without, you know, causing

permanent damage or violating the rules, we did it. >> and there was medical personnel in the room. >> there was always medical personnel. there were medical personnel, there were psychologists that were independent of the interrogation there. there were language experts although he spoke english pretty well. there were language experts. there were subject matter experts. and there were the people who had the command and control. there was also a traditional interrogation expert that, you know, traditional law enforcement expert. >> need a quick answer and we're going to go to break. we're going to come right back with you. but how many days of interrogations did it take to employ all of those methods? >> oh, actually, it's been so long ago i don't remember for a specific thing. >> just several day sns was it a couple of weeks? couple of months?

>> it was -- it was at least a couple of weeks. >> okay. dr. mitchell, standby, we're going to come right back with you after break. because of course another one of the detainees interrogated was khalid sheikh mohammed, the man who planned 9/11. up next more on that. ing... a pm pain reliever that dares to work

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techniques you mentioned. how did you decide to go to that? >> can i correct one thing first? >> yes. >> i was not the only person to interrogate -- >> no, no, understood. >> i don't want people to think -- >> how do you decide you're going to do that? >> it's really based on their resistance posture. in spite of what the senate said about immediately going in and escalating things, the first thing you do is you walk in and in a very natural way like i'm talking to you now you see if they'll engage you. and if they'll engage you, then you proceed with the normal kind of theme developed rapport based type of procedures. if they won't engage, then you move to the more harsh measures. >> even with somebody like khalid sheikh mohammed, let's talk about him. i mean, you walked into a room with khalid sheikh mohammed. >> yeah, i was -- yes. yes, i did. >> what condition was he in? what was he wearing? how was he restrained?

>> i don't think he was wearing anything. i don't recall exactly because it's been so long ago. and although that seems very exciting to other people, it was an ordinary part of my life for a long time. so the specifics of a single incident like the very first day, i don't remember that. but in general what i remember about those first interrogations was that he was arrogant. that he was immensely arrogant. that he was disdainful and that he was just -- he had a propensity at that particular point to be confrontational without being physical. >> this is a man, khalid sheikh mohammed, who masterminded the 9/11 attacks, who personally beheaded daniel prole among many other atrocities. did you feel like you were in the presence of evil?

>> i felt like i was in the presence of an evil man, that's for sure. he looked a lot -- i mean, he was quite a bit heavier at that particular time. he felt -- you know, he felt more confrontational, you know, and resistant. i didn't feel evil in the sense that he was some sort of a demon. i felt evil in the sense he was some sort of murder. >> he was ultimately waterboarded of course and the initial techniques were not effective. so it got to waterboarding with him. when you're waterboarding khalid sheikh mohammed, understanding what he is and what he did, does this person's humanity, whatever amount of it there is, factor in at all? are you conscious of it? >> we're very conscious of it.

very, very conscious of it. you know, he's a human being. those techniques are so harsh that it's emotionally distressing to the people who are administering them. even though you don't want to do it, you're doing it in order to save lives in the country. and we would just have to man-up for a loack of a better term an move forward. >> do you think about the 9/11 victims in these moment sns. >> the 9/11 victims are the reason i'm here. when they first asked me if i was willing to do this, my initial thought was i don't want to do interrogations. that's not who i am. and i knew for a fact that my life as i had previously designed it would be over. but i know the exact instant that i signed the pony up for this. the exact instant was a person there had asked me if i would do

these and i was himming and hauing a little bit and either him or another person said after you've seen all the intel i saw suggesting the second wave was coming and it was going to be a catastrophic attack and all that sort of stuff, if you're not willing to do this, how can we ask somebody else? and that picture of that falling man flashed into my mind. and i thought, i know this is going to sound corny, but this is true. those people on flight 94 gave up their lives, gave up their lives so that they could save -- >> my apologies for pausing here, but the computer's going to cut us off in five seconds. we're picking this up in three minutes. she's still the one for you. and cialis for daily use helps you be ready anytime the moment is right. cialis is also the only daily ed tablet approved to treat symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex.

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and breaking tonight, more with the man who interrogated

khalid sheikh mohammed. dr. james mitchell is here with us again. jim, continue. i'm sorry, you were speaking about the heroes on flight 93. >> right. what i was going to say and i'm glad we stopped because i always get teary when i talk about 9/11. honestly, at that particular time i thought if they were willing to give up their lives, these ordinary people willing to give up their lives and save the capitol building, who am i to give up my moral high ground to save additional american lives. what we forget is al qaeda try today decapitate the united states on 9/11. they hit our financial center, they hit our military leaders and they intended to take out our political leaders. the loss of life was tremendous and horrible, but the real -- can you imagine if they had managed to kill the senators as well as do everything else they did? >> the president says we reclaim our moral authority by admitting our mistakes. your thoughts on that.

>> that's a truism. how could that not be true? >> he thinks it applies in this particular context. do you? >> i think the particular context has been misrepresented. i don't think that that senate report put out by the democrats actually captures what happened. it cherry picks. it manipulates the wording. it frames the argument differently. it reads look a prosecutorial brief rather than an effort to get to the truth. and i'll just give you an example what i'm talking about. as i read through that thing, i started reading through that thing, i noticed that there were lots of -- they presented me in a very bad way. which i expected. but then there are lots of cases on the periphery where they talked about people raising concerns. you know, concerns were raised by, concerns were raised by. and i looked at the incidents and read through them and realized i was the person raising the concerns. but they're not identifying me when the concerns gets raised. they're identifying me when

there's something going on they think will bring some sort of ill will towards me in the presentation of the argument. >> so when you saw abuses, you reported them? >> i reported a lot of abuses. and so did dr. jessen. we were reporting every single thing we saw that we thought went outside of the guidance, you know? >> and those were investigated. i know you feel the senate report was one-sided. and i want to get to more of that with you because there's a separate story about whether they talked to you, whether they condemned you got your side. i want to finish with the ksm interrogation. you said he was arrogant when you began and then he was waterboarded. what is the official number of times in your view? >> well, the official number of times is different than what's written in the report because they counted every pour. >> right. you explained that. >> every time they poured water.

but they counted that as sessions. but the session is how long you lay on the board. and i actually don't know because the physicians were keeping track of that stuff. >> okay. was he less arrogant by the time you were done? and what was it that finally broke khalid sheikh mohammed? >> i don't want to -- we felt that waterboarding wasn't particularly effective on him. >> was not? >> it was not. he was one of those very rare people who can actually open up the back of his nose when people are pouring water on him and he can just let that stuff run out his mouth. so he could defeat it that way. and he would hold his finger up and count down. he knew how many seconds we were going to go. because again, even with him, we only did two 20-second pours and one 40-second pour in a session. and then the rest were all very

short pours. so he would count down on those long pours to just let us know that, you know, and we were unwilling to escalate it any further. >> so how did you get to the point where he wound up providing what we're told is very useful information? >> the other eits. i don't really want to say which ones they were in case -- >> wow. and is it true that he did provide useful information? because there's a debate about that too. >> in my opinion it is. but let me tell you what, the public shouldn't trust me. i have a vested interest in. the people they should trust are the men and women at the cia who to contemporaneous, they were writing reports and making reports. they shouldn't trust the senate democrats who go in with an agenda with something they were going to find already. you need to look at the reports that were released back when dick cheney requested they release the reports when they

shut down the program initially. and read the reports that were never meant to be seen by the public. >> up next, we're going to finish our interview with dr. mitchell for now. we'll finish tomorrow night. i'm going to ask you more about your experience you believe these democrats have put a fau twa on you. we'll talk about it next. toid a, and you're talking to your rheumatologist about a biologic... this is humira. this is humira helping to relieve my pain and protect my joints from further damage. this is humira giving me new perspective. doctors have been prescribing humira for ten years. humira works for many adults. it targets and helps to block a specific source of inflammation that contributes to ra symptoms. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened,

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if you're just joining us tonight, something extraordinary has been happening right here on "the kelly file" as we air an exclusive interview with dr. james mitchell, the man who personally along with others waterboarded khalid sheikh mohammed and was considered the architect of the enhanced interrogation technique program that's now under attack by the senate democrats. we lost the feed with dr. mitchell, but we are going to

get it back up. we've got bars right now. color bars and we're going to get it back up. my producers tell me they feel confident he's going to be back up shortly. we have other news scheduled to be in the program anyway. we're going to do that now while we re-establish our fees. this other news, breaking tonight, the new york city police commissioner bill bratton is now defending new york's mayor, bill de blasio, and his controversial comments over the weekend about the protests here saying the mayor misspoke. here's the story. mayor de blasio upset a lot of cops by saying that protesters here in manhattan over the weekend "allegedly assaulted two officers," but you can clearly see in the video the cops are being attacked. then this happened. listen.

>> what do you want? >> dead cops! when do you want it? >> now! >> community members fill out this form, i the undersign as a new york city police officer request that mayor bill de blasio refrain from attending my funeral services in the event i'm killed in the line of duty. judge napolitano, author of the new book "suicide pact." judge, the mayor came out and defended -- and said that those who march express themselves in a peaceful and respectful manner. and then talked about the alleged confrontation with police. the cops are -- have had it with him. the morale here in new york city with these cops is the lowest as i've ever seen it. >> yes. >> is he mishandling this? >> he's profoundly mishandling it. his job is not to take sides in this. his job is to put his arms around everybody and bring people together. the city cannot exist without police. without police the city will be a crazy lawless frontier. the police are doing their job.

are the police perfect? no. none of us is perfect. but for the mayor obviously to take sides against the police accelerates and exacerbates this confrontation. people chanting in the streets have the right to say what they want. even if it's disrespectful. even if it's hateful. but when it leads to violence and the mayor denies what we have all seen, he ratchets this up and makes it profoundly worse to the point where you can't blame the police for their animosity towards him. he is their commander in chief. they must obey him even if they hate him and even if they have reason to do so. >> what is the danger here? i mean, because the pliz -- when cops are accused the words alleged are never in the conversation. called the mayor a total -- and the criticism goes on from there. >> because the mayor is not

speaking as the person whose job it is to keep the peace. he's speaking as if he's still a part of the crowd that is demonstrating. look, that may be his base. and they may have voted for him. but he's not in that group anymore. he's now the chief law enforcement officer of the city. it is his job and his duty to maintain peace, safety, freedom in the streets. and he's not doing it. >> can you imagine these police officers saying if i get killed don't come, mr. mayor. >> it is about the biggest nose thumbing they can do. i don't want to think about police getting killed and the consequences of that, but they are doing this in order to try and get back at him for his refusal to act as their commander in chief. >> right. >> and his steadfast determination to act as if he's still in the streets marching with these people, which he was before he was mayor. >> they're sending him a message, the question is whether he's listening. >> i don't think he is.

and i'm sorry to say that. >> great to see you. >> like wise. >> dr. james mitchell is back with us in moments we will ask him about this senate report and why he believes, his words, it has put a fatwa on him. r ] hands were made for talking. feet...tiptoeing. better things than the pain, stiffness, and joint damage of moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. before you and your rheumatologist decide on a biologic, ask if xeljanz is right for you. xeljanz (tofacitinib) is a small pill, not an injection or infusion, for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well. xeljanz can relieve ra symptoms, and help stop further joint damage. xeljanz can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers have happened in patients taking xeljanz. don't start xeljanz if you have any infection, unless ok with your doctor. tears in the stomach or intestines, low blood cell counts and higher liver tests and cholesterol levels have happened.

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explain that. >> it not only didn't include republicans, it didn't include the cia. from my perspective and from the other interrogators that were involved that i've talked to, it almost seems like some secret tribunal. it's like being caught up in a bad spy novel. you know, they think we're guilty of some horrible thing, we can't be prosecuted because what we did was legal and multiple investigations have shown it. so they had this meeting $40 million, five years, however long it was, but they already knew the result they wanted. they didn't give us a chance to explain anything. they didn't even bother talking to the people at the cia. or any of the people who were no longer at the cia though involved like the past directors. then they issue this report that essentially stirs up all of the crazies and all the jihadists. and so now we're getting death threats and all kinds of things.

how many times in your life have you had a law enforcement official call you up in the middle of the day and say leave your house immediately? that happened to me a couple of days ago. >> do you feel your life is in danger? >> well of course. you have to be cautious. and you do feel your life is in danger. i don't mind. i do not mind giving my life for my country, but i do give mind giving my life for a food fight for political reasons between two groups of people who should be able to work it out like adults. >> no one from the senate committee ever called you to get your side? >> no one from the senate committee has ever asked me a single thing. if they think i've abused somebody, they should ask me about it. they should point at the piece of paper, let me review the documents and let me at least try to explain myself. khalid sheikh mohammed has the opportunity to address the charges against him, but i don't. that's why i'm angry about this.

they have a foregone conclusion, they put my life in danger, they put the lives of other cia personnel and our families in danger for some sort of moral high ground. >> dr. mitchell, you have not been speaking out. we've been trying to get you on the program for a week now. you finally over the weekend said you'd do it. what changed? >> what changed was when you first started calling me to be candid with you i was very upset. i just -- i wasn't ashamed that i had been involved in the program. i'm proud of the work we did. we saved lives. i don't care what the senate said. all the presidents, the past cia directors, i got an award for the work that we did. they told us we did a good job. they told us we saved lives. and i believe that we did. what changed -- and then this stuff comes out, no opportunity to defend myself. and i feel horrible for the

nation. i feel horrible in part because this puts everyone at risk. and worse yet it shows al qaeda and the al qaeda 2.0 folks, isil, that we're divided and that we're easy targets. that we don't have the will to defeat them. because that's what they know. in fact, khalid sheikh mohammed told me personally, your country will turn on you. the liberal media will turn on you. the people will grow tired of this. they will turn on you. and when they do, you are going to be abandoned. well, i don't feel abandoned by the cia. they didn't throw me under the bus. and i live in a world where real people live. i run into people, they recognize me. about 65% say thank you for looking after our well being. there's another small percentage that says i absolutely abhor what you did, but i understand why you did it. and then there's another group

of people that makes out the rest of them that says i would never do that, it's better to let 3,000 people die than lose the moral high ground. i'm a big proponent of the drone policy. but i don't think that there is a moral equivalence between blowing up a picnic and killing granny and slapping ksm on the belly or waterboarding ksm as ugly as that was. i just don't see the equivalent. we don't have a targeted assassination program. if we did, we wouldn't have to be killing granny. we could get to the person we intend to kill and kill those folks. it's just, for me, you can probably tell i'm a little agitated about this. for me i don't want to die because the democrats in the senate don't have the courtesy to ask the cia to explain what they view as abuses that occurred when there's other evidence, 6 million documents

skpr, and they cherry pick what makes their point and put us in danger. >> dr. mitchell, we're so glad to have the opportunity to speak with you tonight. we're going to continue this. i want to tell our viewers, tomorrow night, because there's much more to cover. we appreciate you being here, sir. >> thank you, ma'am. thank you. i do want to mention to the viewers as well that vice news has spoken with dr. mitchell and has been doing great work on this story in general. coming up, what oprah winfrey had to say on the racially tinged e-mails revealed by the sony hack and how she reacted when a similar question came up after donald sterling's private conversations were outed. bernie goldberg is here. ♪ [ female announcer ] you've tried to forget your hepatitis c. but you shouldn't forget this.

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well, the release of thousands of e-mails stolen in a computer hack at sony pictures

took a dramatic turn in the last 24 hours. and company lawyers argued the media must stop talking about the leaked material. included in that a couple of racially insensitive, to put it mildly, e-mails from company execs discussing president obama. after that story blew up last week, oprah was asked by don lemon of cnn for her reaction. >> i would hope that we would not stand in judgment -- in such harsh judgment of a moment in time where somebody was hacked and their private conversations were put before the world. there are things that you say in your private conversations with your friends and with your colleagues that you would not want to be broadcast on cnn. >> but this is an apparent turnaround from how ms. winfrey reacted back in april to the donald sterling controversy when leaked comments taken by his

supposed loved one, caused this man to wind up losing ownership of his nba team. to that oprah said at the time that sterling should know that the plantation days are over. joining me now, bernie goldberg, fox news media analyst who joins me now. accepting that what donald sterling said was unambiguous in racism and went much further and went on and on with crazy ideas with respect to african-americans. is there some hypocrisy in condemning the one and then trying to be understanding of the context and the greater person and the privacy aspect with the other? >> sure. except that we're all hypocrites. i'll give you an example. if somebody stole e-mails about angelina jolie and le leonardo dicaprio, say you want to put this on, i would say i'm not

doing the dirty work of the hackers. the hackers broke the law. i'm not going to put that stuff out. it's totally celebrity garbage. but if somebody came to me with what i knew were stolen e-mails that said nbc news deliberately slants the news to hurt republicans and conservatives, i would put that out. so morality is almost always based on the situation. we're all hypocrites to some extent. >> well, so it's -- whether it's newsworthy is generally the test being employed. but what's newsworthy to you and to me is not the same as what's newsworthy to variety and entertainment tonight which covers people like angelina jolie and the sony executives religiously. that's their job. >> that's exactly right. what i'm saying is let's use this analogy. i break into a house and steal a tv set. okay. that's against the law. everybody would agree with that. and then i sell it to you,

megyn, for $25 and you know it's hot merchandise. well, you're also breaking the law. but if somebody breaks into sony's e-mail system and steals their e-mails and i put it on the air, i'm not breaking the law because we have the first amendment that lets me publish or broadcast just about anything. if it has to do with celebrity gossip, it's sleazy. all i'm doing is the dirty work of those people -- >> what about the racially tinged e-mails -- i think that's being charitable. >> i think you said something like racially insensitive at best. >> i said on o'reilly earlier i think those are racist e-mails. i'm not saying those two executives are racists. those are racist comments. >> i understand your position. i know i'm all alone on the thin ice. conservatives think what you just said is true. liberals think -- everybody does. but what i'm saying is, i understand that barack obama is a worldly man who cares about

things beyond films involving black people. i understand that. but i don't see at all where it's racist that say i wonder what barack obama thinks about "12 years a slave" or "the butler". >> oh, come on. that's not what they were saying. what should you ask about and ensues the long list of movies starring black people like that's his only interest because he's black. >> fine, i disagree with you, but fine. let's use your argument. so let's say there were two other filmmakers -- let's say oprah winfrey and tyler perry. and they had the exact word-for-word conversation. and they said, well, i wonder what he thinks about "12 years a slave" or "selma." we wouldn't be having any discussion about whether they're racist. and you know what, megyn, i'm not playing the game where black people can say certain things that aren't racist but when

white people say the exact same thing, well, they're comments at least are racist. i do think amy pascal, who at least as of tonight is still running sony, i don't think that will last. >> yeah. >> she made two big mistakes. lighten up, it's no big deal. and the other mistake, the bigger one, she went to al sharpton for absolution for forgiveness. that is pathetic. >> bernie, it's great to see you. we'll be right back. i have the worst cold with this runny nose. i better take something. dayquill cold and flu doesn't treat your runny nose. seriously? alka-seltzer plus cold and cough fights your worst cold symptoms plus your runny nose. oh, what a relief it is. you think it smells fine, but your passengers smell this... eliminate odors you've gone noseblind to for up to 30 days with the febreze car vent clip. female passenger: wow. smells good in here. vo: so you and your passengers can breathe happy.

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tomorrow night, more with our exclusive with jim mitchell. also rand paul will be here. let us know your thoughts at facebook.com/thekellyfile and on twitter @megynkelly. thanks for watching everyone. i'm megyn kelly. welcome to "hannity." this is a fox news alert. more protests in new york city this weekend following the grand jury decisions in both the eric garner and michael brown cases. now, new yorkers were caught on camera calling for the killing of police officers. watch this. >> what do we want? >> dead cops! >> when do we want them? >> now! >> much more on that disturbing video coming up. but first tonight a 16-hour standoff in sydney, australia, came to a dramatic end today when police stormed a cafe in which an armed iranian-born man held a total of 17 hostages. police say three people were killed including the gunman and two hostages. four others were wou