rld's attention. >> certainly had our attention. thank you very much for joining us. we're going to turn it over to bill hemmer and martha mccallum. you're watching the fox news channel. we're into a 48-hour nightmare. two dangerous hostage situations unfolding at the moment. two terror suspects said to be surrounded by french police saying they want to die as martyrs after murdering 12 people two days ago. that is northeast of paris. now breaking news on another standoff with terrorists on the south and eastern side of the city. good morning, everybody, breaking news coverage here on the fox news channel continues here in "america's newsroom" and welcome to friday and welcome to day three. i'm bill hemmer. morning, martha. martha: good morning bill. good morning, i'm martha maccallum. we have to be clear two separate active ongoing hostage situations. one in northern france you see

on the map. this is 25 miles outside of paris. it is five miles from degaulle airport. it is called dammartin-en-goele. that is where the kouachi brothers are holed up. this one involved 25 minutes ago. some reports say there may be as many as two people dead. we're working to confirm those numbers. bill: a lot of information may change and likely will throughout the morning. be patient with us as we work through it. start with northern france. police made phone contact with the suspects. we know up to 1500 police officers have been deployed to the scene there. 1500. the suspects holed up at a printing company after apparently working their way through a forest earlier overnight. we're also hearing they reportedly have one hostage in that situation as well. martha: next in paris, two terrorists taken multiple hostages' we said.

this is situation is in a kosher grocery store. these two situations and people carrying them out are connected. bill: mike baker former cia covert operations officer president of diligence llc, live in boise, idaho. you've been watching events throughout the morning here. start with the suspects in the printing company. what is the objective once you've established contact with them, knowing they have at least one hostage based on reports? >> well the objective is to save the hostage and to take the terrorists alive because you want, you want ideally to get all the intel you can out of them. so, that is it. that is the objective in a nutshell. bill: is there any way to know whether or not the second situation unfolded as a result or in addition to what we watched two days ago? >> well, no, that would be speculation at this point. what is not speculation is the

direct link between coulibaly the killer the alleged killer of the police officer, police female officer trainee the other day, and the kouachi brothers. that is definite at this point. they were very cautious and very slow to say whether it was a criminal act or whether it was a terrorist act when the police woman was killed and gunned down. the french police, the french intel service extremely extremely cape ab, very good. look, this is the largest manhunt they have ever done. upwards of maybe 90,000 officers directly or indirectly, somehow on the periphery have been involved in the manhunt around france at this point. so they're very good what they do in this circumstance but are is only certain number of options on the decision tree how both these hostage situations will end. bill: you know the brothers initially involved. authorities in france have known about them for a decade.

one it appears traveled to yemen for training. another tried to go to syria and later iraq and he was denied. that at least one of them also featured in a documentary in france. several years back about growing up in france, of islamic faith and trying to make a decision to join the war but then later being thrown in jail for a period of 18 months. they knew who they were. one has to believe now, in the second scenario, amedy coulibaly opens fire in the supermarket and says the following word, you know who i am. you are led to believe french authorities had their eye on this guy as well? >> obviously in the next. there is armchair quarterbacking in terms of the monitoring and

there was intel failure. that always comes up after one of these problems. and also the just the operational security around the site that was attacked, the "charlie hebdo" site. at end of the day, we talk about was this directed by aqap? well this operation was green lit years ago. it was green lit before awlaki got a missile up his tail pipe and aqap said they wanted to avenge blasphemous behavior against the prophet. in a sense this was green lit. this has been bubbling away. the problem at this stage same thing we talk about before, these people, 1200 or so french citizens, back and forth to syria, iraq in recent past. then their ability to monitor those people within the law because we have to obviously we have to take that into consideration. we know what happens here in the states. the pendulum has already swung.

for write some time privacy privacy, that's important of the let's dismantle the security apparatus because we don't want to infringe on people's rights. i guaranty that pendulum will swing back towards you know what? we want more security. within what was allowed the french authorities have been monitoring all these individuals and they made the decision, you know, circle years back, with the younger brother that is now holed up in the printing plant, they couldn't prosecute him. they just didn't have enough within what they were allowed to do to prosecute him successfully. bill: mike baker stand by. boise, idaho, we'll have more news with martha. martha: amy kellogg is live on the scene in east paris. she is about 400-yard from this kosher grocery store where people are being held hostage by the man you see on the right-hand side of your screen. his name is amedy coulibaly. amy, tell us what you see there on the scene. >> reporter: as you can see over my shoulder, martha a very significant and heavily-armed

police presence. as you mentioned we're just 400 yards away from that cokierer grocery store where the hostage is taking place. this neighborhood of paris is not a jewish neighborhood. it's a mixed neighborhood in the southeast of paris. we understand there are at least five we heard reports of about six, at least six hostages in that shop right now monk them women and children. obviously we have two hostage situations going on in france simultaneously. of course the two shooters from the other day the "charlie hebdo" shooters are holding a hostage about 40 minutes from here on the outskirts of paris. so earlier of course the shooting that happened yesterday, in which a police woman was killed originally was not thought to be connected to the attack on the offices of "charlie hebdo" but now it appears there is a connection because this amedy coulibaly, he

was heading the hostages, a man described being of african descent and part of a group which is the kouachi brothers the "charlie hebdo" shooting term were also a member of, they all must have known each other. that group was involved in funneling fighters syria and on to iraq. so now of course it is believed that there is a connection. authorities have said there is in fact some connection between the event yesterday this hostage situation "charlie hebdo," two simultaneous hostage situations in friday in paris. we can't get any closer to the kosher grocery store because obviously a a very sensitive crime scene with events unfolding. this took a edgy city by surprise and shock a few hours

ago, martha. martha: amy, let me ask you, on your way there, what is the feeling of the rest of the city? is there concern that could be something else that crops up as a result of all of this? or might be connected to all of this? how freely are people moving around the city or does it feel like everybody is hunkered down at home? >> reporter: yeah, it doesn't feel like a goat town and there are lots of on lookers where i'm standing right now. last night we were at the memorials for "charlie hebdo" a lot of people were lighting candles. the highway around paris is closed. if you're getting around broadly speaking you will meet with a lot of resistance around paris and charles de gaulle airport. the city seems a bit quieter than usual. i wouldn't say people are all hunkered down. this neighborhood has certain amount of restrictions on movement and people are being told to stay indoors generally across the city, with now these two hostage situations going on

things are coming to a head. i mean there has been this intense manhunt, 33,000 police officers martha, have been looking for those kouachi brothers said and cherif, who shot 12 people at "charlie hebdo" the other day. they have been at large. now they are cornered in that industrial park outside of paris and holding a hostage in a printing shop. they are accounted for and it has been said in radio reports that believe they want to go down dying and some shootout with police, they want to be martyrs. it is speculated that is the case with amedy coulibaly down the road here but we simply don't know. but in any event we had three shooters on the loose when we went to bed last night. now they are accounted for but the scary thing is, is it's not clear how both of these hostage situations are going to unfold. so that is the situation now. of course we remain on the highest alert and of course there may be others out there who want, either lone wolves or

people affiliated with al qaeda who may be up to something down the pipeline but right now these two situations are coming to a head, martha. martha: amy kellogg on the scene, thank you. bill: a lot to keep track of here. we'll try to best to keep it straight. on map behind me, let's go into paris, france, where we've been watching the past three days. as amy was mentioning overnight last night. this was the area of concern right about 20 miles northeast of the charles de gaulle airport which is also about 20 miles, 18 miles to the northeast from where the original attack occurred on wednesday morning. so that is situation number one with 1500 police officers now responding to this part of north earp r eastern paris. in eastern paris you have the hostage situation at that kosher supermarket where we have been led to believe so far they think the gunman who is now holed up with at least five hostage was the same gunman who shot and killed a police woman yesterday

in nearby area here of paris as well. so we're watching both now. north carolina senator richard burr, chairman of the senate intel committee right now. senator, good morning to you. we're trying to follow this and figure it all out. what is your reaction so far on the events you watched unfold before your eyes? >> well, bill, it is always tough when it is unfold like it is now. but here's what we know. horrific attacks in both cases. press report that probably will be confirmed that the brothers had a direct connection to al qaeda in the arabian peninsula. were trained. attempted, possibly went to syria and got additional training and carried out a horrific act that was intended to maximize bloodshed which they did. and in addition to the attack, an assassination of a police officer and different than the lone wolves we've seen over the

last several months. bill: how so? >> these two intended not to be captured or identified. their faces were covered. they had an escape plan. quite frankly if said hadn't left his i.d. in the car they abandoned we might not know who they are today. bill: that's a good point about, this is not a suicide mission. they got into that newspaper -- >> not by any stretch -- bill: they got into the newspaper, senator they got out and went on the run to flee for their own lives. we'll see how this unfolds if they come out with their lives now. they were also known not just to french authorities but to u.s. authorities. they were on our no-fly list senator. >> will, we've got a lot of people on the no-fly list because of the information we received from our foreign partners and i'm sure that was the case in france. the french have an unbelievable task in front of them relative to foreign fighters coming back in and as they put the importance who they surveil and for how long.

it is easy to understand how cherif and said might have been dropped from permanent surveillance. they had information on them. we put them on the no-fly list. we'll learn more with every hour that unfolds. the important thing i believe this triggered our intelligence community and our partners around the world to really dig through every database they have got to look at the contacts that they might have made now that we've got their cell phone numbers, now that we've got personal information. we'll be able to connect more of the dots and to figure out whether there are other places in the world and here at home, that we should be concerned with. bill: do you think we have a plan for that? are you satisfied with the strategy? >> bill, we've got the best counterintelligence community in the world here. we've got th partners around the world. they're all on the same pain but i point you to the director of

mi 5 who gave a peach in the last 24 hours who said they clearly understood that the terrorists were committed to create havoc a mass casualty event, somewhere in the west either in europe or the united states and it was imminent. this may be the thing that triggers it. we don't know, may be the second shooting in paris was triggered just by the fact that the first one happened. or we're going to find out there was some coordination. this ought to concern everybody and it concerns our intelligence community but this is the opportunity, hopefully to get additional information if we can capture any of them. i don't believe they want to go down as martyrs. it may be that the french can talk one or both into custody. bill: the head of mi5 is a fellow bit name of andrew parker. he was talking this week with select group of royal united services at the london headquarters.

what he said was this, senator. quote, we know for example that a group of core al qaeda terrorists in syria is planning mass casualty attacks against the west. perhaps that is in france. maybe that is in britain. perhaps that is here, senator. >> that's exactly right and i think our intelligence community sees this as an opportunity to seize on additional data that we get from the french and we get from these three suspects that are currently in a who is stabling situation. and potentially see if that connects to anywhere in western europe and into the united states. bill this is a classic operation for the intelligence community. we start with a little bit of data, a little bit of information. it extend as far as we might possibly do it. let me just say. this is the reason that keeping data for a number of years is important. the alleged trip for said to yemen was in 2011 and, i think

it's understandable why the french might have surveiled him for a year or two years. didn't see anything to be concerned with and decided current people returning from the fight in syria might have been more important. i'm not sure but we'll all know at the end of this exactly the decisions that were made. bill: senator, thank you for your time. you mentioned the head of mi5. it was it is an address that is getting a lot of attention especially now what we're watching here. richard burr from north carolina. thank you, sir. what he said in addition, martha we know terrorists based in syria harbor ambitions towards the u.k. trying to direct attacks against our country and ex-sorting extremists to act independently. for the brits this is a wake-up call. in france that may be coming there next. martha: we don't know if this group was inspired by or directed by a group in yemen. there were reports from the original scene in "charlie hebdo," there was discussion, if anybody wants to

know where we're from, we are aqap al qaeda in pakistan. and you know we're still waiting, there was a report from a isis imam religious leader who said this morning they were taking credit for this. you have to be a little bit wary drawing any conclusions from this. one thing we do know, these groups are in competition for headlines. that is a scary prospect in many ways as well. greg palkot joins us live from paris with more on this. greg has been watching all of this unfold. it has been an unbelievable 24 hours. no doubt the to come will be extremely dramatic as this plays out, greg? >> reporter: amazing, martha. the last five hours we've been seeing breaking news just about every minute. just to recap again. the two situations happening right now. 25 miles outside of paris in a small business, printing

warehouse, that the two main suspects in wednesday's "charlie hebdo" newspaper office are holed up. they have one hostage and there is a mammoth amount of french police army, special force anti-terror forces all around them. they are in communications, they are in negotiations with the two individuals inside. the two individual inside, or at least one of them says they want to go out in a blaze of glory they want to go out as martyrs so with a hostage there and with that intent the police are being very careful but there is a mammoth force there. and as we've also been reporting just about two miles from where we are, on the east side of paris another hostage situation. a man storming into a cokierer delicatessen supermarket with two ak-47 says he was firing when he went in. latest unconfirmed reports say he might have killed individual in that manner. there are five hostages there including men, women and

children. he has been talking to police. he is saying and police are backing this up, they believe he is the same person who shot the police woman in paris yesterday. the two inside of paris, one on edge of paris, apparently related. various sources police reports quoted by reuters news agencies and others they're part of the same islamic cell. the individual in the kosher supermarket, he was actually sentenced for trying to spring a convicted terrorist from prison in 2010. the two outside of paris, they were trying to help out according to accounts. the three of them go back many years, trying to funnel trying to send, facilitate jihadi fighters from france into iraq and syria. so basically martha, you've got an active situation now, two really strong crime situations that the authorities here are dealing with but it is just a tip of the iceberg what i've been following in my long years here in france and covering

terrorism. the tip of the iceberg that the french are dealing with. that is a very large muslim arabic population and unhappy sector of that population. some of whom many as a thousand have gone abroad to fight in places like iraq and syria. the fear has been they come back to fight as well. looks like that textbook situation we've been talking about for years, theoretically might be happening right now. that is what we're all tracking martha. martha: you're so right about that. and one of the questions i have greg, who else is working with them? who helped to supply them? who helped to come up with this plan if anybody? how much of the plan at this point is being improvised? we know they got into the car that they carjacked the two properties i'm discussing right now and started to head back towards paris. we wonder what reason they were heading back towards paris for or to carry out? >> reporter: i think we're looking, martha, at something, sort of a hybrid.

we talked about people who are actual al core members of al qaeda, and are directed or sent from pakistan any or afghanistan caves and sent to do a specific mission, in for example, the u.s. takes, for example, 9/11. and then we've had the sort of homegrown types, people out of nowhere say i want to do this we have kind of a combination. one of the main suspects we now learned trained in yemen with the al qaeda chapter there al qaeda in the arabian peninsula. another of the main suspects in the "charlie hebdo" shooting was involved in the al qaeda in iraq outfit which has grown into isis. those days headed by zarqawi a real enemy of the united states. there sinter relationship and there is connection and a lot of people are acting out on their own. did they plan this all out? i'm sure they planned attack on wednesday in the "charlie hebdo"

newspaper office shooting but i don't think they planned to run around in the forest and hijack a peugeot compact and their grand plans hit reality. it is same thing too. i don't think the individual, perhaps suspected of shooting that police woman thought he would end up in a supermarket on the edge of paris. it is a combination of definite idealogical planning and real life martha. martha: yeah. incredible. we'll see what happens. thank you very much. greg palkot in paris. bill: there will be a lot of reaction throughout the morning into the afternoon from overseas and certainly here at home. for that doug mckelway is live at the white house. we check in for the first time with him this morning from the north lawn. doug, what are you hearing from the white house and the president and what information they are getting now? >> reporter: bill, we expect the president to stick to what is sort of a familiar pattern in times of crises like this, sticking to his regular schedule, traveling to tennessee

touting a plan for two free years of community college education for all americans while closely monitoring the situation in france but not being consumed by it. again the white house referred all questions about the situation in france to french authorities. they didn't want to take questions about it here. the president is scheduled to receive his presidential security briefing in another ten minutes or so. however the president last night upon his return from arizona did deviate somewhat and paid a voice to it french wednesday in washington. inside the president wrote in a book of condolences. here are his exact words. on batch of all americans i extend our deepest sympathy and solidarity following this terrorist attack in paris as allies across the entries we -- centuries we assistant unite the with our french brothers to see that our way of life is defended. we stand for ideals that light

the world. and the president ended his written statement of in that book of condolences. viva la france, long live france. bill: has he spoken to the french president in recent days? >> reporter: not to my knowledge, bill. the white house has not said that. the white house maintains there is no credible threat domestically related to paris attack. there is no increase in chatter related to paris attack. you talked about the latest warning from the chief of british intelligence mi5 andrew parker, that al qaeda in syria is warning of about large-scale attacks in paris or britain or transit systems. the united states is not immune again. so important these european countries and western allies coordinate their planning for the eventually at this of such an attack. that is one of the reasons attorney general eric holder will travel to france this

weekend for meetings on monday. bill: doug, thank you. back to the white house for a bit more later this morning martha. martha: steve emerson the executive direct or of project on terrorism. he is of course a terrorism analyst. steve, good morning. your thoughts on all this is unfolding this morn? >> it is pretty horrific but i can tell you what i have learned so far and what french law enforcement learned, these cells morphed one into another. the hostage and terrorist that took, killed at least three people in the kosher supermarket in paris is member of gia and had been convicted several years ago involving in a paris terrorist attack in a paris subway. he is connected to the cell that killed the 12 people at "charlie hebdo." it looks like these gangs or these terrorist groups are sort of interconnected. they morph into one another.

the first one was aqap, connected to al-awlaki's group. this o-e seems to be gia. the fact is we've seen in the last few years how the islamic terrorist groups have sort of migrated from southern france, from march say from -- marseille, where they killed several people there to paris now. the only question whether there is a larger cell involved and larger associates who are prepared to take other types of terrorist attacks of the french police have been caught off-guard by this because they have not kept up with intelligence or have been able to secure intelligence on this group ever since they were released from prison, at least the first cell a few years ago. so is a very fluid situation. it appears now that the french police are ready to storm the paris supermarket. can't confirm that. but with two or three dead, who were killed immediately when the

terrorist entered the kosher supermarket it appears that remaining five hostages, at least five hostages, their lives are in deep peril and the french police are simply not willing to wait this out any longer, okay? martha: steve, in terms of the kouachi brothers, we know they wanted to live after the attack on wednesday because they got in the car and drove away. now they say they're willing to be mart ired for their cause -- martyred. in terms of profiling these go brothers do you think there is any chance they can catch them, interrogate, find out who they are working with? >> you raise a good question here. i think they're prepared to go down as martyrs. there is no doubt that they simply changed their minds. if they wanted to go down as martyrs immediately they would have stayed at the "charlie hebdo" headquarters and fought it out with the police

and not try to elude them as successfully did. now they had eluded them and now are caught and surrounded they really have no options. i think they want to go down as martyrs because this is the true ending for islamic jihadists, to become martyrs. they become memorialized at that point. and the fact is, the only question remains now, is whether, is how long the french police and special forces will wait them out and how long do they think the terrorists will keep the hostage alive. martha: yeah. >> the point that they think they will kill the hostage i can guaranty you they will storm the warehouse. martha: they will go in. these guys are tired. they have been on the run since wednesday. it does schematically remind me what happened in boston. you have two brothers, likely one got the other involved. you don't know what the dynamic is between them or one is will ing toking to die or they could be arguing and number of

things coulding going on in the hostage situation. obviously they want to save the lives of people being held in both locations. it is a real dynamic isn't it steve? >> police have leverage and shut off water and shut off electricity. can stop the food if any food left. they have leverage here. the only questions what demand are. what i hear demand are unclear. so they don't really foe what those demand are or at least they're not possible to be met. if so there are threats to become martyrs are really sincere and they are being, you know interpreted as sincere, then, it looks like they're going down in a hail of gunfire martha. martha: what happens next? we heard a report, a speech by the director of mi5 there are mass attacks mass casualty plans underway possibly in the united states, possibly in britain. how is that changing how either country is preparing? >> well it is pretty extraordinary to have mi5 would

appear publicly to make that statement which shows you the real extent to which a threat is credible in britain. they're one notch away from the most extreme threat level possible. so they must have very credible intelligence about the threats and what it seems to me given what happened in paris, given the mi5 statement and given other things going on in europe especially the activities of isis and the returnees there is a new wave of islamic terrorism that is evolving, that is going to be sprung and has been sprung upon european cities and may obviously, you know, penetrate the united states. we don't have as many returnees from syria and iraq as europe does. martha: doesn't matter steve, right? all it takes one two, maybe five out of that 100 or thousand in europe to create terror and put a city under siege as we're seeing in paris today. >> absolutely. you don't need to have gone to syria or iraq to get training or

to be taken weapons or become a jihad it. do it in your backyard on computer at home in a firing range. you don't need all the variables as a characteristics of a traditional jihadi. you can do it in your native home in the united states or in canada as we've seen the last few years. so that's a situation that goes way beyond the issue of isis returning. this is no longer an issue of the problem of isis or al qaeda. this is now a problem now way beyond that, of not just leaving lone wolves mart but groups of jihadists that have the ability to acquire weapons. they can do training in their homeland and they can take and pick targets at random in any city they want, at soft targets not protected and carry out mass murder as we saw in paris. that situation we simply have not faced. we've been trying to prepare for it. we haven't seen it.

now we have. martha: it is global and it's a global war that is idealogically driven and quite clear we've seen it in sydney, we've seen boston, in paris, and in london over the years and we need to get much more serious about taking it on in a global way. steve emerson, thank you so much sir. see you next time. bill: 3:30 afternoon this friday afternoon in paris france. this is what we know at this hour. two rapidly developing hostage stations. one northeast of paris where two terror suspects holed up with at least one hostage at a printing plant. another hostage situation in a kosher market with five hostages. two brothers suspected in newspaper slays two days ago core r cornered inside of a printing house. is a hundred french police responding there. two hours later gunman seizing

hostages at a kosher mark in eastern part of france. came at sundown when the market would have been most crowded with shoppers on friday afternoon before chabat. apparently the gunman, amedy coulibaly walked in saying following words. you know who i am. he is suspect screen right, working with an accomplice, woman screen left, according to french police. some hostages have been gravely wounded. there was a report that two are dead. that report has not been confirmed. walid phares, middle east analyst catastrophes to avoid. walid, good morning to you. >> good morning to you. bill: what do you make of what we're watching now that the second situation unfolded in the manner that it has? >> let me give a second dimension to what is happening but this time from the angle of the jihadists, what are they

doing. what they have done already they have been successful in destroying their first goal, the first target that "charlie hebdo." that is a very important achievement. i'm calling everything between brackets here for the jihadist movement. if they wanted to die they would have done so in pat well police and counterterrorism at the newspaper and you got your video. they actually wanted more. they moved to another location. what i am observing right now they are buying time. and my question is why are they buying time? they could engage earlier. they're not. one is that they are giving the outside jihadists enough time to produce the narrative. what i see in the next few weeks is they will have a video. they will have a press release saying what, two bringing jihadists fighting against an army of 1200 french soldiers. this is very important for them.

we don't see it because we are engaged tactically with them. number two every hour they are gaining is going to be added for 15 hours, for 24 hours, those brave jihadists have been able to hold this army. you guys, future jihadists you could do the same. that is what i think is the real point at this point in time. not to win a battle. not to go-mart at this early. they may go-mart at this at the end when the french will attack them. quickly on the second issue there will be more of great concern if it is linked, if it is linked, it means those two jihadis are trying to trigger other jihadists to do something at national scale. time any possibility but it is there. [the. bill: perhaps they know each other. that is a possibility. and perhaps they did not, walid in the scenario you describeds

when you stretch south the time frame and allow opportunities for others who are like-minded to do what they want to do. it is either a or b but either way it is not good. >> it is not good at all. let me add one thing. go back to france 2005. there were incidents that began at the end of october burning cars. those incidents stretched. the police couldn't go into the no-go zone. what happened for the following days and weeks? the crisis went to multiple cities. now i'm not saying this could be the same but what happens in the mind of jihad its the hope. your for yaw of jihaddism. we are heroes. maybe other heroes will emerge in other cities. that could be what is happening inside of their head at this time. bill: one other question. rudy giuliani was on our network the other night. he said the following. i think it is really really important we train local police here in the u.s. in becoming people who are experts on

terrorism. is that possible? is that the next step? is that the next step? is it logical? >> it should be logical. it should be the next step. it was an earlier step. the nypd has the best counterterrorism department and i as an expert would say the best on counter jihaddism. what they have produced was studied in the classroom. what happened was dismantled. what the opposite was happening. every police department in the united states should have a counter jihadi, counterterrorism the way the nypd had of the absolutely. bill: thank you. walid phares by telephone. we'll bring you back next hour. thank you. martha has more now. martha: let's bring in our panel. juan williams, fox news political analyst. mary catherine ham editor-at-large at hotair.com and a fox news contributor. welcome to both of you. good morning. i'm sure you've been watching all of this along with us this morning. i want to talk to you both about the larger question in terms of u.s. policy and the way that we

are approaching what is clearly a global problem that we've seen in sydney, we've seen in boston we've seen now in paris. with all of these groups linked by a single thing which is a radical islamic ideology that they want to suppress the rest of the world into. juan? >> i couldn't agree more. it's not a thesis you just laid out. i think it is a fact. i don't think there is any question. you hear people have discussions about resisting sharia law, martha. what they're seeing, they begin with us in journalists in some way, you can't talk about islam. we know that is why they went after the magazine in paris. i think it extends now worldwide to shut up. don't talk about islam at all. the editor of the magazine in paris, in fact said at one point, isn't it ironic islam is the second largest faith in this country, in france and we can't say a word bit and most people know nothing about it. so the idea that they are trying

to change the larger global world to meet their constraints i don't think is argued. i think that's a fact. i think what you said is the truth. martha: if that is the case mary catherine we're looking at an enemy that wants to basically perpetuate its religion on the rest of the western world where's the leader? where is the winston churchill? where is the human being who is positioned to have the western leadership to confront this head on? >> yeah, i genuinely worry about this because it is an all-out assault on the values of a free society. what i worry about if you, in the absence of that person, what you end up with is a bunch major news organizations okay, we won't talk about that anymore. even in this case not showing the cartoons in question which send the signal this kind of thing works. you have to have some moral clarity on this in order to stand up for freedom of speech

even if you don't happen to like the speech. that is how this borks. -- works. we're aallowed to print things people don't like. more and more in our society well, we should be offended we should take that down. when they attack violently, no that is not the rule anymore. that it is about standing up. here's the thing when we talk about policy and having folks fight this fight that moral clarity is necessary. the american people are friendly fighting robust fight on war on terror. they have to have someone bring message to them, go to congress, get votes and make it happen. there is lack of. that with war on isis. there is no rules of engagement of the there is not a vote should we be fighting and how we should be fighting. martha: juan you need action. where are those things from this president? >> i think this president made an effort and we saw it actually begin with president bush martha, to say we're not

fighting a war against islam. this is not a religious war we're fighting. we're fighting a war against islamic radicals and extremists an violent people. martha: but this president doesn't say that juan. he doesn't say the sentence you just uttered. >> i think he does say it, i think that he has some restraints that i don't have and you don't have which is he has to be very clear to the world and especially to leaders in the islamic word, we're not fighting a war against your country against your faith. we are opposed to people who are violent, radical extremists. and to me i would like to see people say this more directly and especially in terms of protecting the liberties about the values of our western society. i can understand that. but i again, to me, we shouldn't be blame america first. i think america, you know our troops are on the ground fighting isis in syria and elsewhere. i don't see the europeans standing up at all. martha: so we watch these g8

summit. we watch the united nations meetings and i'm wondering where is, where is the meeting on this? where is the outrage to president hollande at this moment, to the president of egypt, al-sisi who made it clear he thinks muslim countries as well need to join in this fight against this radical brand of islamic terrorism. >> yeah. martha: where is that meeting, mary catherine? >> yeah. i think part of the problem is when you go to a global meeting, if you go to the u.n. or g8, what you're getting is a lot of folks who idealogically to say, well, we shouldn't be offending islam. i think that is genuine feeling among many people among that elite global leading class and i think that's a problem. you see it in various op-ed this week about the "charlie hebdo" cartoons, well they were provocative. martha: opening that door sorry but, he has opened that door. >> question. martha: i'm asking where the president return phone call to him, to say i'm so glad you said

this? i'm so glad you reached out your hand? i'm so glad that you understand this global threat facing all of us. let's get together. >> i would love to see that. i think there will be some reaching out. one of the problems you see with this white house, it is not idealogical thing it is reactive not proactive. when it comes to something like this proactive is how you stop things before they happen. you just can't react to everything. if you look back to the "charlie hebdo" printing some things in 2012 and jay carney, well i question their judgment on that although i'm pro-free speech and violence is the answer keep your mouth shut. stand up for free speech and don't admonish people that do that. and clarity is the message and they're not doing it. martha: as our last guest steve emerson said thought it was really profound that the head of mi5 made quite clear that there

will be a mass casualty event leveled at the u.k. or the united states. in light of that, what is the united states response to that? how are we evolving? how are we finding these kind of people who tripped the wires of law enforcement time and time again in terms of surveilling them and keeping tabs on them? >> wealth big challenge at the moment for homeland security in this country is a little bit illustrate what is taking place in france, martha. what you have in france people who were trained by al qaeda in yemen, went to yemen and returned to france. the big challenge for us in terms of u.s. homeland security is watching people who have u.s. passports, who go every to one of those war zones have some sympathy have been recruited by al qaeda or isil and then find themselves in position to come back into this country legally. how do we track the people? you will not track every single

episode. getting back to what emerson said to you, you're trying to t@prevent the big episode. it is very difficult and evolving in materials of new restraints, new arguments against the brandting people free access to return once they have been in those zones. i think you're seeing more and more questioning of anybody coming back from those regions now in a way that you didn't see before. martha: let's hope so. we'll have to get used to living this way, which i don't think anybody wants to do. or we'll have to get real about the threat that we're facing. >> remember we got a heads-up on the tsarnaev brothers from russia before the attack happened. increasing that communication and hoping to learn a few lessons from that would be great. requires proactivity. martha: it would be great. juan, mary catherine. good to talk to both of you. bill: tense moments throughout france. two ongoing matters here. want to bring back mike baker cia covert operations officer. i want to read to what you mike

mccaul said recently house homeland security committee. talked about homegrown terror in u.s. i don't think we have a strategy. there is no lead agency. there are no measures to measure success. we don't have a common definition what it is end quote. >> is he right. i think he is just in the semantics, the labeling of it. i've never been comfortable with the idea of homegrown it send a wrong message like lone wolf does. we talk about how we will defeat this. i think the previous panel that discussion about having a clear statement from, sort of the winston churchill as martha said coming out making a statement, yes that would be ideal and should be doable. this is not going away. nothing is going to change here. unless we get the courage to essentially strong-arm the muslim world all those moderates out there we keep talking about into being

aggressively vocal and consistent against the extremists operations, unless you do that, unless you get them themselves, in the muslim world, to to push the extremists, into a corner, to put them in a box basically. then put a lid on that box and bury it, we're never going to get rid of this problem. we'll not do it alone by ourselves. we'll prevent minimize disrupt operations, sure the we'll adjust and recalibrate our protocols. making this problem eventually go away dealing with it at the level it needs to be done, no. without the muslim world doing what they should have been doing a long time now, it will never happen. bill: white house summit in october, was postponed. in fact it was delayed twice. we do not have a firm date in the year 2015. why is that? >> well there is no, there is no consistency. look if you take the u.s. alone,

whether it is this issue, the war on terror, a variety of other foreign policy issues we're dealing with several years of mixed messages, inconsistencies. our allies don't know where we stand on most issues. nonetheless that we are necessarily there for them that we have their backs. we have less leverage in the middle east we've had as long as i can recall. and, you know, not that i'm arbiter of what we can recall but the point being, without that consistency we have lost our position. we know this. unless there is somebody at the top of the food chain taking a strong clear leadership, someone will fill that void. if it is not another state it will be chaos, every nation for himself. bill: there is a former obama national security aide quoted in a piece out today in "politico." what his suggestion is, now that

you're in private practice, mike, i think you're perfect to answer this. the idea to think that government can figure this out is wrong. he says government moves far too slowly and tends to be risk-averse. is that the case? >> well, in general terms yes. depend on, if you're talking about the government in general, sort of regulation and policy making, yes, i think it is very tough to turn the ship. but if you're talking about individual organizations such as my old outfit, objective with the cia is one of those that can be extremely nimble and adjust. they have to have direction from the white house. they don't act on their own. they need that direction. and, yeah again, i think we have been extremely successful over the years at preventing another 9/11 type attack. that is not just by luck. that is by incredible amount of work. but ever since 9/11, you remember the days after 9/11 we were talking about the fear and concern over an attack such as

what we've seen over in paris the past few days. we've been talking about that. talking about how do you prevent that sort of an attack? this shouldn't surprise us. whether that attack or attempted times square bombing, underwear bombing, whatever it is, the problem we have sometimes we want to parse use semantics want to put everything in little separate boxes. saying this is all part and parcel of the same damn problem. the muslim world is not joining hands with us despite their occasional protestations. occasionally get an imam showing up in paris saying this is wrong. that is not enough. it will never will be. bill: you had rebuke from egyptian president in cairo as well. you about you need that every time. >> right. bill: martha and i sit here and watch these scenarios play out for hours and days on end. there is no alerts cross the wire suggest there is word out of tune niece or cairo

damascus baghdad pick your monthly capital you don't hear leaders condemning what we're watching on our television screen now. >> no. you talk about western leaders gathering together after this event in tragic event in paris and -- it doesn't happen. bill: bring it back to paris now. let's dive into a lot of your expertise here because about three or four hours, there seemed to be update and new headline about every five to ten minutes. now that has gone quiet for the past hour hour 1/2. one thinks now that the police in france are being patient to resolve this as peacefully as possible with the hostages now being held. what do you think? >> there is not much new under the sun when it comes to hostage situations, whether you talk about terrorist hostage situation or criminal act.

there is not that many directions these things can bo and there are cerp protocols you tend to see time and time again. french police and authorities are extremely good at this. we get wrapped around the axle, was this coordinated event. was this being directed by aqap? well we know, one of the brothers spent time in yemen. so he had sufficient training. we know al-awlaki before he was killed along with aqap were calling for retribution against the cartoonists. we know all the things but we want to drill down and put it into various boxes. i think sometimes is part of our problem and in not seeing sort of a grander picture the threat that we face. i think when you're talking about hostage situations now yeah, a lot of it is speculation. when will they go? when will they try? you don't know. they're playing this as it goes

along. what do they want again? same thing as you always want. you want the hostages alive and take the perps, the terrorists alive as well because you desperately want the intel you can get from interrogating them after the fact. on the periphery, tremendous amount of work still going on. they wrapped up ward of a dozen associates of the brothers at this point. they're interrogating those individuals. going through all the communications intercepts they possibly can. they're trying to knock on doors. they're trying to figure out how did they get weapons in their hands and are there safe houses as well. that will tell them in the hot wash, how did we miss this? how did the counter surveillance miss this. that is the opportunity you have got to stop one of these attacks, are the when the hostiles are doing their surveillance on the target. there will be tremendous of work going on. bill: dozens of arrests might be a scratch on the surface at this point. but the point about awlaki was

well-taken. when he was taken out by drone in september of 2011. there was very good reason for that. he inspired people to come to yemen. he inspired people all over the world and that was his true lethal threat as american-born english speaking jihadist. mike baker thank you. here is martha. martha: general jack keane retired four-star general and fox news military analyst. >> good morning martha. martha: i guess my question for you is look at big picture world war i. world war ii. enemies of freedom. democracy. battles fought around the world, how did we get here? >> well one of the problems we have is we have not looked at it strategicgy. we dealt ideologies in the past. you hinted at. that we dealt with naziism a

fascist ideology in the 20th century. and we dealt with communism. we dealt with naziism with brute force and beat communism with better ideas. in fact of the matter you have to look at it strategically. you must see it as a global threat. you must see the linkage that all of these terrorist attacks from 9/11 to the present truly have. while they take place in different countries martha sometimes they're either using guns or they're using bombs, they may be more motivated by one radical islamic organization or one particular radical islamist leader the facts are the linkage and what they have in common and it is quite profound, is political and religious, radical islam it ideology. that is the linkage that ties all of this together and you have to look at that then strategically and work against that radical islamist ideology,

to undermine it deglamorize it. it is not just enough to kill and capture those who commit acts. we have to defeat this movement and we have no strategies. think of this. we sit here, 2014, now 2015. 14 years almost after 9/11. and we still do not have a strategy to defeat this global jihadist movement called radical islam. martha: not only do we not have a strategy but under this president, we were basically steered away from the phrase, war on terror. we were told the battles in afghanistan and iraq were over. we were told that many of these owe vents that happened, whether at fort hood or on the long list you could look at were isolated incidents. acap driven attacks thwarted in times square or plane on christmas day we were told time and again they were not linked.

that they were crazy people that wanted to do bad things. >> yeah. the truth is, the national leaders that we have in spain in france and in england who all had to deal with these attacks and our current president now, going into the sixth year, what they have in common is exactly what you're talking about. what they have in common is one they have not defined the enemy in terms of radical islam and when you do that, and when you tie the linkage, then it demand of you something more than just chasing down people who committees acts. then it demands a strategy. this is what they're steering from. they won't let that happen. this is such a who are risk event for france. and a country that is tolerant and has has a huge part of its society that has not a simulated and permitting these 700 plus

no-go regions is outrageous in terms of its irresponsibility. that may, be a catalyst to a call to action. that may be too optimistic. but i'm hoping that these leaders take a look at this thing and look we have to get our arms around this thing once and for all. martha: but you make a great point because you say you have to do it mill tearily which would mean going after isis going after, you know, acap, doing tactical and strategic things that need to be done the you say we have to fight them idealogically to stand up as a nation and combine with other nations that believe in freedom democracy, for men for women, for young girls and minorities and band together to make that ideology so attractive that it starts to question the motivation of some of these people. >> yeah. absolutely. we should be doing this in communities inside of the united

states. we should be doing this certainly in community that exist in europe and we should be working with our partners in the muslim countries in the middle east and in asia. i personally believe we should go a step further and take a pain how we defeated communism and that is form political and military alliances. formalize them. so we come together, in a common belief that this needs to be defeated with better ideas as well as weapons. then use all of the elements of our national power within these countries. we share technology. we share intelligence. we share training. the united states has more on considerable how to defeat this on the battlefield but many middle east countries and other countries frankly still have conventional militaries ill-prepared for this. there is so much we can do if we commit ourselves to strategy it must be defeated. but we have not done that. these people will die in vain if

we don't do that. there was a very good piece by dan henninger in the "wall street journal" he claims and worries we forget about these things. what about the 132 children killed in pakistan, murdered in their classrooms. of the it is important not to forget these things and let them die and move to the next thing. general jack keane, thank you so much. always good to speak with you. >> to talk with you martha? bill: if you're just joining us here, is what we know at the moment. french security forces joining terrorists holding hostages in two separate locations. two men wanted for a deadly massacre at a newspaper on wednesday, holding a hostage in a printing plant near charles de gaulle airport, that is northeast of paris. another holed up inside of a kosher supermarket on the eastern outskirts of the city threatening more hostages. our breaking news coverage continues this hour here in "america's newsroom." i'm bill hemmer on this friday. martha, good morning.

>> good morning everybody i'm martha mark. imagine this in paris, surrounding paris. not one but two active terrorists hostage situations? one gunman in a grocery store. they barricaded inside of a building and want to be martyrs. they were involved in the attack that took place at a newspaper on thursday. the printing plant is 10 miles away from the airport the kosher store are 10 miles away that two developments that we're watching. bill: senior foreign affairs correspondent, greg palkot live in paris. greg there was period four hours ago there seemed to be a new headline, just about every 10 or 15 minutes. that has gone somewhat quiet now. which leads us to assume that

police now at least have and heal on what's happening and trying at least anyway to resolve this in a peaceful a manner as possible. a waiting game of sorts, greg. what do you have there? >> reporter: trying to resolve trying to resolve it peacefully there? >> reporter: trying to handle peacefully, yes, but having a handle on it i am not sure about. we are 25 miles east of the small business, the two main suspects in the brutally deadly attack on wednesday held up with one person being held hostage. thousands of police are surrounding them with military and special forces. there are discussions going on but as you noted one of the main suspects saying he is going down in a vision of glory and that is

he is willing to die for the cause. a school that is 500 yards away. elementary school, has been allowed to be emptied of children. that is a good thing. but this building is also in an industrial park where there are four other businesses with dozens of workers. if this thing gets nasty or ugly it isn't just the one hostage they are holding but all of the workers in the area. it is in a village of about 8500. switching over to the other situation at the kosher super market in the eastern side of paris that is ongoing as well. the individual in there claims to be and police believe him to be possibly the person who shot the police woman in paris, yesterday. he said, he too, wants to go out not in a blaze of glory but

demands answers and the answers he is saying is that he wants his brothers at the first location freed because he it is believed is responsible for the shooting of the police woman and she is believed according to authorities a part of a cell of home grown radicals here. the free of them have connections over the few years and it is reported and asserted by authorities. fall out bill by the supermarket just heard over the news agency that the the authority here have ordered here all jewish shop kosher and supermarkets in the area of the muray district.

and this out of concern that there could be more targeted attacks and more people out there that want to do wrong. just wrapping up here, bill there has been a major summit/meeting of the president of france and his interior minister and prime minister as they try to come to grips with the things that on paper seems like a threat but it is becoming reality. >> we know they were aware of the two brothers and had a long history of french authorities going back a decade. you know if they are aware of the person on the right of the screen? >> reporter: they are. he was actually convicted in 2010 of trying to spring a convicted terrorist out of prison. that was 2010. and also a part of that scheme

the two main suspects the brothers, were also said to be in that. they are the ones that are the main suspects in the newspaper office shooting. so they know about him, yeah. he has oralityther criminal records. the pictures shown alongside of him is referred to his girlfriend or wife and it is believed she has a record but she is not believed to be in the supermarket right now. i know we are getting into the tall grass with a lot of details. but those of us who have been following the story. there is six million muslim and a small group of people that want to do wrong. some went to iraq and syria and seen battle. some went to yemen and trained.

the fear has been on paper they can come back and do wrong and it looks like that is what is happening now. >> police say he walked into the market saying you know who i am. here is martha. >> let's go to amy kellog who is on the ground in paris as well. she is just a distance away from the supermarket where the other ongoing hostage situation is playing out. what is going on there? >> reporter: we keep hearing two people died but then it is refuted. we are talking about five host ages among them women and children. there is a heavy police presence you can see there. we asked if there is a sense of fear around here and basically what i have seen in this position is that a lot of

people have been frustrated they cannot get to their homes because several blocks are now closed off as the operation unfolds. we just heard a radio report that the police on the scene are hunkering in for the long hall. greg talked about one of the suspects by one of the two involved in the charlie hebdo want to go down in a so-called glory. i think the hostage taker is planning to stick it out a little longer. they are hunkering down and setting up a camp near the grocery store. but in a hostage situation something can change with them becoming irritable or hungry or something moving. it is on-going now.

the jewish delis have been ordered to close. this would be a busy time of day as we approach sun down of the jewish sabbath. people in this area behind me and there are schools and there is a significant jewish community but it is a mixed neighborhood where people are kept indoors and chemocan't get home or can't leave. -- people can't -- but the rest of the highway is business as usual. but in london and paris people have been concerned about attacks like this and the unrest around the world coming to europe. and we are seeing a city that feels under siege and a city that feels it is in frankly a state of war. >> let me ask you this. there have been reports that it was mentioned the brothers were

mentioned by another leader and wanted them to be left alone. is there any substance to that on the ground from what you are hearing? >> reporter: i have not heard that myself. i am a bit away from where this is going down. but we do know they were all part of a gang. >> sounds like we lost amy. we will get back to her. let's go over to bill who is looking at the map and layout of this. >> we are trying to keep it straight here for you at home. we will zoom into paris here to let you know what is going on over the third day. charlie hebdo is here and the airport to the northeast and an area of 18-20 miles of a stretch. this is where the initial

situation is being held with 1500 police surrounding the printing plant we described. we believe that is where the good gunman responsible for the killing act of kill took place on wednesday morning. we believe they have one hostage in the same location. if you circle here to the kosher supermarket there is where the second situation is underway. we believe two are wounded, five are being held, and two accomplices are held up inside the supermarket. we have a former navy seal here and good morning to you. i have been watching you since 5 o'clock this morning. >> good morning. >> this is a waiting game and it will be resolved but the question is when. >> that is the real question.

as thinks start to evolve in the terrorist tactics you have to start looking at what is happening in the past few attacks such as canada such as was in australia. australia you had a little bit of time to prepare. but in evitablely you can almost hundred percent guarantee they will not end well. now it comes to keeping them talking long enough to find a niche and getting a break to get in there. but i am seeing more them tactical and less negotiation. >> what do you mean by that? >> there needs to be a tactical resolution because from the history of what we have seen from these individuals they will not release hostages before they kill them. >> so you think about the

sydney australia situation and when the police made a move they obviously sensed something like him nodding off or being distracted. >> i can guarantee that situation would have ended bad -- or worse. >> why? >> because the motive of the individuals isn't to take a bunch of hostages and get the word out. we are looking at terrorist. they want to take over and martyr themselves or create such a situation it spreads fear. kenya is the perfect example of this. they didn't take hostages. they killed people. i think we will see more of this. and i hope i am wrong. but on wednesday i was almost a hundred percent positive these individuals had training outside

of the united states and we find out they have and the individuals from the al-qaeda in yemen and syria has a policy not to hold hostages and keep but it is to kill them. >> there has been a wire from the capital of yemen and officials are saying one of the brothers involved in the attack against the newspaper is suspected of having fought for dwied al-qaeda in that country and he was there until 2012. that is syncing with the reporting that hawse happening last night. >> you are seeing competing expertise now with the good and bad guy. you have two groups of bad guys that are going to stay there. but the good guys are pouring all of their assets into the

these two areas and if anything happen happens you will have all of your forces exhausted, hungry and they will start thinking wrong and if you have another attack you have depleted your forces. i think your guest on earlier are right. we are not prepared for multiple attacks in different locations. i am already starting to see it going in on paris. you are starting to see them throw everything they have at this. you have to be able to backup, put whatever forces you need there for that moment and then get ready for oncoming attacks by reserving your energy and some of the people before it is time to go out.

>> let's bring in catherine harris. what is the latest you are learning from where you are? >> what we have is more information about the man who is assumed to be holding the five women and children hostage in the grocery store in eastern paris. he came out of prison two months ago being convicted for attempting to spring a convicted terrorist out of french prison. this main was convicted of a 1995 attack on the paris train network that killed eight people and injured 117. he served time for that and came out recently. we have heard this story from young muslim guys who have been in the prison system that he was radicalized in the prison system. the french haven't been able to get a hand on what happens to

the guys in the french prison system. we know he has had contact with the other brothers who are also in a hostage situation to the north. the other thing i can tell you is this guy had a criminal record almost as long as your arm. from the time he was a minor he had drug offenses and has been known to the authorities for quite some time. what we know about the other woman who came out of nowhere he is on the loose in paris. she is 26 years old and his girlfriend and she is known to the authorities here in paris and the anti-terrorist unit brought her in in 2010 for questioning questioning. >> it is fascinating looking at all of the times they tripped the wires and it raises the

question what happens in france the united states and great britain and all of these countries to keep tab on the people that are text book in terms of their development from getting in trouble as a young person, going to prison and becoming radicalized and being released time and time again essentially. >> that is the big problem. every time you talk to french authorities about this you say i have been following this and there is only so many surveillance people we can put out there. we had an instance where young people were flown back to france after being with isis in the middle east, there was a communication issue and they ended up at a different airport and the police were waiting at the wrong airport. these are coming up again and

again. every time you go to the police and say you should have known and they say there are only 24er hours in a day. france has a big muslim population. you have a lot of people who were not radicalized in the past and now you have them getting information online and young people are hit hard by the economic down turn with youth unemployment being 35% some places in france and they are attracted to the people that offer them glory. >> it seems predictable but we are surprised by these people time and time again when they actually do engage in the activity we are seeing playing out.

the >> the founder and president of the islamic democracy is here. good morning to you. >> good morning, bill. >> what do you make of catherine's report from paris? >> the attacks are not the same but similar in that they will do anything to get the world's attention and want to die in their cause. they want to leave the world with a bang for their cause against the west and freedom. they have attacked parliament and they will attack our military media and marketplaces. as we see the jewish committee is on the front line because of the deep anti-semitic behavior. >> she was being talked about radicalized in prison.

you think about how vulnerable you are there. when you have someone in an isolated situation and you have their attention 24 hours a day, 7 days a week so long as they are incarcerated. >> well when we talk to reformist and youth in our programs we always use prisons as an example. the mom teaching them are about jihad and islamic supremeacy and that is a way of brewing radicalist. look at the dictatorships of allies like saudi arabia and pakistan. those are governments like prison and that is why the citizens in the country are being radicalized because there

is no freedom of thought, no reform or modernization. so the citizens are radicalized. these dictators show anti-semitic that radicalizes their population and they claim to be innocent victims and they are really two sides of the same coin. the same thing we see in prison is happening in muslim majority countries. >> i thought what the egyptian president did was a good start but time and time again we come back to the story about where are the prominent, muslim leaders saying this must stop and the reform has to begin now. >> that is what the focus of the work should be. it should be beyond this

whack-a-mole program where we say the right thing the day after the attack and go back to being victims and apologizing for our faith instead of doing the hard work. i think the general american community is guilty of not putting the fire under the feet of muslims by calling it jihad and this a long war against political islam. the militants are but 1-2 percent but under the tip of the iceberg is a large political movement that won elections in egypt with the brotherhood and large political movements in iran and elsewhere. that is the drug that is fueling this passion between the west and islamism. and muslims have to address this as well. we can be the greatest radicals

or create and instill muslims to be separate from isis and all islamic terrorist groups. >> do you see nudge in that direction globally or is it going the other way? >> it is going the other way. >> it is becoming or hardened you are saying? >> absolutely. american exceptionalism is no longer a threat. they are being fuelled by countries like russia to control their interest while america and liberty with ppdraw. some of the monarchs and

dictators are saying the right thing but they identify poplar as the problem but they don't want people being free because that is the end of their dictatorship as well. america needs a public-private partnership like in the cold war with the communist ideas being the enemy and this is where we are missing the boat in the 21st century. it is all of political islam we need to harness. muslim muslims are an asset like in egypt they were ousted by the brotherhood who didn't want them. >> as you come from phoenix, arizona, rudy giuliani made a comment about how terrorist need

to be train on becoming experts in america. is that realistic? >> we have to. and i know what he means in that terrorism is a tactic and to understand the threat of terrorism you have to understand what is the drug fueling that terrorism and that is islamism. it doesn't mean monitoring mosques but it means not allowing them to become havens for protecting radical ideas. we have to realize not all must muslims are terrorist but the majority of threats are coming from radical muslims. we have to train police officers. we had 2011 under the leadership of congressman king. we are talking about what radicals islamicrad

cull se radicals muslims. but but we cannot teach the police officers what takes a normal soldier in our army and makes him into the one of the most vicious threats against the country. >> they are not eco terrorist. they are muslim terrorist and that is their agenda. thank you for your analysis there. phoenix, arizona. as we have been reporting throughout the morning we are in the middle of two tense hostage situations unfolding in the wake of killing of 12 that happened at charlie hebdo newspaper in paris on wednesday. the four people you see on the screen, three of whom are believed to be directly involved in all of this. the woman that you see is believed to be the girlfriend of the man who is holding hostages

at a market in paris. we are learning that the market gunman has threatened to kill the hostages he holds if the police storm the terrorist brothers in the other location. he say pitting his situation against the safety of his colleagues who were held up in the printing facility about 25 miles northeast of terrorist. so that puts the police in the situation of deciding how they will handle this. let's bring in peter brooks and get his thoughts on this. the prior negotiations they have paid to release hostages paying millions over the year and you wonder how they will handle this that is unfolding on their own ground at home when the gunman

on the right side of the screen said unless you let my brothers go, my brothers in jihad who are at the printing facility i will kill the people i am holding here who just made the grim mistake of walking into a super supermarket on a friday afternoon. we have a peter here and this is the situation they have at hand. >> very difficult situation for the negotiators and the french. they will have to decide how to hold on this to buy more time for themselves because they don't want to allow these other terrorist to go free but they may have some ideas up their sleeves that will allow them to achieve their objectives of

making the hostages save and grabbing the terrorist. it is a tense situation for them. the thing here is to buy as much time and monitor and see if there is any threat to the hostages and as we have seen in places like australia recently if there looks like there is a threat to those being held by the terrorist the french have to act. we want to them them in our thoughts and prayers. very difficult situation and it is becoming tense. the terrorist are probably tired, hungry anxious and probably not thinking clearly -- i would say they were not thinking clearly in the first place but probably becomes delusional, impatient and in tolerant so this is a difficult situation. >> we talked about the big picture in terms of islamic

radicalism and the global issues. but in paris it is all about hostage negotiation and getting the people out alive. you have several people in the supermarket and as far as we know one hostage at the printing facility and that is the main goal of the police. the other thing that occurs is the brothers wanted to make it out of the wednesday situation at the newspaper alive. they say they are willing to be martyred in this situation but you have to leave open the possibility of maybe they want to live and could be talked out of the building >> the longer they are alive, the longer on the lose, the greater the victory for the islamics and their cause because obviously the world is paying a lot of attention to this. if it was done a day or two ago it would be different. but it is continuing to go on.

social media around the world is being fired up. this is a great propevictory so they may try to drag it out. one of them may have to sleep and the other would have to be on guard long hours. very difficult situation for everybody. but the longer they are able to drag it out the greater the propeganda victory and perhaps they wanted to undertake other terrorist attacks and not be caught. we will not know until this is over in the short-term hopefully about their motives >> and you have to wonder about the communication between the man who is holding people at the market and these guys. he is putting his own life in danger to press for the freedom

of the other two guys who say they want to be martyred. it raises questions about the big plan and what else might be going on. one of the other guest asked if this was a decoy to draw attention to the sights and spin the wheels and keep it going as long as possible >> that was my concern as well. if this individual didn't leave his id behind. did he do it on purpose? did they want the manhunt to go on as long as possible so people would know about it? the other thing is what they have done here complicated the situations for the french negotiate re negotiaters because they have given them an option.

>> would you like to see these people taken alive? in terms of getting intelligence out of them? >> intelligence is critically important. i am always worried about the trials in terms of them being able to use it as a tool but, yes, i would very much like to have intelligence and the background and experiences they had that brought them to this state. and the french are worried about other plots out there. that is what they want to know. the ticking bomb scenario. is this just the beginning of a number of events? this is how we were after 9/11 worry about the second strike. and any information to pruevent future attacks or attacks underway is critically important. >> peter thank you.

4:35 in paris and sun down coming in the next two hours. two developing hostage matters in paris. one northeast of town where two suspects are held up with at least one hostage in a printing attack. five hostages being held in a kosher market. the two brothers in the first mattered suspected into the newspaper slayings are cornered by 1500 police. in the second matter seizing a number of people at the market at a time before sun down when it would have been crowded. quote, you know who i am according to police, is what he had. the suspect said you know who i am as he entered with an accom

the gunman at the market is threatening to kill hostages inside if police take out his quote brothers northeast of paris. republican senator ron johnson, new chairman of homeland security, our guest from milwaukee, wisconsin. senator, first your reaction to what we are watching? >> it is tragedy. let's look at the bigger picture here. because isis isn't deemed defeated the sad reality is they will be perceived as winning. they are affective at using social media to not only recruit people to the extreme movement but to inspire this activity. the hard reality is this isn't going away and we are not doing

enough to try to defeat isis. we are closing down bits and piece of guantanamo bay and we are not capturing and detaining these people to question them and get the intelligence. we have to defeat isis, we need a strong intelligence gathering if we have any chance of beating this over the long term. >> what can you add about the system in place to keep track of americans with passports who go to iraq syria and perhaps yemen and pakistan and came back home? what is the system in place to make sure we have an idea what they are up to? >> we have a number of information systems that ping the authorities when people leave the country. and we had problems with the brothers in boston and mead to make sure they they work and we

don't dismantle them. that was the problem with snowden. i am a strong civil libertarian and i value freedom but that is what is under attack right now. there is a delicate balance between civil liberties, our personal freedom and security. if we lose in the security war, we will decrease our freedom and civil liberties. we have to be honest and have a strong conversation with intelligence ability and we have to defeat isis. >> as you reflect on the system in place, are you confidant it works? >> we have stregthened our defenses. look at the airports and the

strength in the cockpits. we have increased the defenses. but islamic terrorist war isn't over. the terrorist are not on the run. they are being strengthened. the cancer has grown. this isn't like you get radiation and it is better. >> with regard to the united states how do we make our own system better senator? >> what i am going to be doing is holding oversight hearing and make sure the systems are working and the different agencies are talking to each other and we are exchangeing information. but if snowden, i am afraid we degraded our intelligence capabilities because we want to protect civil liberties but we have to guard ourselves against

these evil people. >> ron johnson, republican from wisconsin, you have a lot responsibility with the new senate. we will follow up with you to see if we can be more effective later on. senator, thank you. >> have a good day. >> breaking news in two sights in france. one in paris and one 25 miles outside of paris. active hostage situations under way. we want to bring in chris and get half a minute from you on other breaks news we are trying to keep an eye on everything. there is information that came from nebraska with regard to the keystone pipeline. can you give us half a minute? >> nebraska's high court made a decision that a lower court ordered blocking of the keystone pipeline is invalid and they tossed it out. that basically removes, whether

you call it an obstacle or excuse, but the last one for the administration and the president obama saying it wasn't ripe for a decision. they have pointed to this case saying they want to proceed because there is legal difficulties in nebraska. now this sets up a vote in congress today to take the bill directly to the president that says go ahead and authorize this. >> has the white house reacted to the nebraska situation? >> not i have seen but they will have plenty to react after today. >> no doubt they are watching the situation in france closely as are all of us. we talked about what the united states leadership is on this issue and what is required to tackle this global threat that

is now taking on the city of paris and who knows what is next. >> i think you heard very much in senator johnson's conversation that for the future of the united states involvement in the middle east in dealing with islamic militants and how we go about this colors this. yemen is at the center of this and we see the ties to the terrorist there and the training ground there. ye ye yemen was highlighted by the president as an example of how the united states could proceed in dealing with isis. if that is the model this will provide concern for more americans and europeans who don't think that is an aggressive enough stance to have limited airstrikes and engagement but not to root out and destroy right away the enemy

elements >> we know in the past the president hasn't hesitated to do drone strikes in that area. and there would be no reason to think he would hesitate in the future if he sees training camps, or areas or individuals he can hit. however we addressed the situation in paris as the violence of a few. freedom of the press want be swayed by the violence of a few and that indicates a different mentality mentality. >> the president has made assassination a central part of his foreign policy and his defense structure is based on the anas nation he orders through drone strikes. but what you hear from senator johnson and some democrats even is is there a deep concern they are not doing enough. they are targeted killings that knock off individuals who they rise but the bipartisan concern you hear in congress is this

isn't a systemic response to a systemic problem. yes, this is about free speech put there is a larger concern of it being paris today and it could be cleveland tomorrow. >> it raises the idea of if you want a free world you will need a leader who is more concerned about that than he or she is about the next election. >> and is this the new normal? does this become the new retality in the west that these kind of attacks are just part of how we live? i would submit for europeans who have dealt with this kind of violence for a long time this may be an easier pill to swallow than for americans who are not used to dealing with this kind of violence started by vowed enemies. we can deal with tragedy in the

united states but i don't think there would be much stomach for dealing with this as the new normal in the united states. >> i don't know if paris is going to be able to accept living this way. that is something we talked about in the last 24 hours. is this something the world is supposed to get used to? i don't think there is going to be a lot of tolerance for people getting used to living like this -- being afraid to go to the supermarket or coffee shop and looking over your shoulders when you get on the subway. but in order to not live in that kind of world will require a lot of leadership. anyone considering running for president in 2016 is going to have to have a clear message on how they will take it on. >> and through the use of force. because american voters time and time again don't like playing police to the world but what they definitely like is overwhelming force and the

united states is a hyperpower and you will hear the winning candidate talk about that. >> catherage heritage is live with us and good morning to you. there has been a lot happening over the past several hours. one item that was tossed to the side was isis saying they were responsible. but we have a report of a brother going to yemen and being there as early as 2012. what seems to emerge is these radical islamic terrorist groups compete with one another. >> this is a good moment to take a pause and just lay out for the viewers what we know about the terrorist connections of the two brothers. fox news has confirmed that the elder brother was in yemen in

2011 and made direct contact with the al-qaeda training champions there. and this new york-based on preliminary -- morning -- conversation his main objective was to meet with the leadership in al-qaeda. the individual charged with meeting with these foreign operatives as head of the role was the american cleric who was killed in a fall of 2011 in a cia drone strike. he was the same person who met with another man in 2009 and carried the underwear bomb on to the flight over detroit. my contact says it is likely and highly probably that the brothers met with the bomber in 2011 and when he returned to

france at the time he and his brother went off the radar, went dark. and that would be consistent with the instructions these operatives are given by a foreign terrorist entity. in addition, there is another data point that at this point suggests involvement from an affiliate in yemen. after the attack on wednesday there was a series of tweets that have been obtained and came from an account that is known to be linked to al-qaeda in yemen. it showed images of the massacre in paris that were being tellvised and super imposed on top there was an image of the brothers and a second american as well. you know from ongoing reporting here at fox news since 2009 that

the north carolina man was responsible for the journal inspire magazine. it was this magazine that in march of 2013 specifically called for the execution of the editor and cartoonist at charlie hebdo. so several data points are lining up toward al-qaeda in yemen. the united states intelligence agency isn't at a point where they will say it was al-qaeda in yemen. there are other groups under consideration like isis but they have not been deemed creditable. >> that is a lot of great information and i know you will continue to build on it. i want to remind the viewers why this man is so significant to the terrorist movement.

he was born in new mexico and taken out by an american drone strike in 2011 but before killed he did a lot to inspire, as the magazine did foresee many years, to people around the world, and they want the yemen was of his inspiration inspiration. >> what i believe is those who grow up with social media are wired in a different way and they connect with people in a virtual world and can cross the thresh

threshold to violence. >> at the bay we have about 150 people held and their home country is yemen. >> that is right. let's bring in bill. good to have you here and good morning. >> thanks. good to be here >> we listened to rudy giuliani who believes law enforcement across america needs to be trained in counter terrorism and one thing we have been remiss in since 9/11 is making that flow of information work between the people who are committing petty crimes as these three all did in their youth through radicalization and the higher echelons of intelligence gathering and drawing the link between all of those things. >> i agree with you. there was have to be a greater

education of local police on terrorism and terrorism strategy. what bothers me a bit is the second half of the training. what has to happen on the other side of the equation is our government congress and president has to become aware of the fact he has to be part of the program as well. we have drawn political correctness to a dangerous absurdity. this whole thing involves yemen. what we do based on the president's initiative is resupply the management chain for the people in yemen by taking the prisoners out of cuba. it doesn't make any since moving gitmo into yemen as their

existing managers are killed by us. it is a two-prong approach. >> political correctness isn't lost on the operatives where they are in a zone where people are protective about the way they speak about the issue and they are not protected at all. they are clear about how they speak. >> we don't use the word radical islamic extremist in high government offices -- why not? my heart goes out to the intelligence workers and the police in paris. we have to draw some back and give them a rest because the perpetrators are getting tired and will do something crazy. >> we are waiting for the moment when the change happens.

everyone is sitting tight right now and waiting with patience being it best course at the moment. what about here? we heard from the director of mi-5 to potential threats in the uk and at home. do you think there is a change in tone? an alertness that is changing on the ground in the united states given all of this? >> it has to be. we are satan through the eyes of the islamic extremist. there is nothing more they want to do than create havoc and do things like this to the united states. right now as we talk individuals are probably planning to do that. our strategy is to cover it as best as we can by looking at intelligence forces and law enforcement and relying on the eyes and the nature of american citizens to bring that information forward. if you see something say

something. it is going to happen but hopefully we can prevent it from being a horrible tragedy. >> such an important message. if you see something, you need to say something because we know many terrorist attacks have been stopped by regular human beings in these situations. >> thank you very much. this is northeast of the airport. something is happening clearly. let's listen. just so you know of the two situations this is the one where we believe the two brothers are hold up inside this printing plant with at least one hostage. you see the smoke going off to the left. we don't know why it was caused or what is happening but we are watching it now together.

>> you can hear the gunfire and that was a replay. but we have heard four or five explosions from the vicinity. we can see small plumes of smoke over there. we are trying to pick up whatever we can. but it is hard to pick up what is going on. this happened in the last 10-15 minutes. there was a large evacuation of people who work in the vicinity of the industrial state. they drove out and just moments later four or five vehicles containing police commanders with machine guns drove in

appearing to join colleagues but this is the end game of this operation. jeremy? >> in the outskirts here the lights starts to go and this is the moment the counter terrorism units have chosen to go in and finish this before the double hostage situation gets any worse. run through what you have seen in the last couple minutes for those just tuning in. >> it happened suddenly. a burst of gunfire lasting around 10 seconds or so. then a pause. then a few explosions began to be heard and a few puffs of smoke. i am just moving into a situation where i can see our

television lens because they are better than my eyesight from this distance. let's return to what we saw and heard a few moments ago. we will play the pictures for you. >> coming back to us here and you can hear a massive amount of gunfire that lasted about ten seconds or so. it appears it stopped moments ago. but ten seconds ago there was a burst of gunfire that lasted ten seconds. let's see if we can play that tape back for you. we are also getting explosions now.

did you pick that up? mike? >> put the mic up.