t it. the wolf of wall street was downloaded illegally more than any other movie. >> piracy. >> musicians have a problem too. >> i don't want to talk about leaks. >> america grants certain rights to creators of songs books, movies. the idea is to -- >> encourage the creation and proliferation of new ideas by providing a brief and limited period of exclusivity. >> that's a brand name. like pepsi. that's a brand name. you change the name on it. >> if he doesn't change the name, the lawyers may come. >> an intellectual property attorney. >> you can be sued and found

liable for monetary damage. >> and some of you watch my show on youtube. that's stealing and that's our show tonight. >> and non, john stossel. >> ideas can change the world. for most of human history people suffered in miserable poverty because no one thought of better ways to do things. then suddenly in just the last few hundred years, some new ideas made life better for billions. things like running water the printing press, the steam engine electricity. now the internet. we want people to keep coming up with new ideas but there's a problem. why would you bother to spend years inventing something if other people could just steal your idea. they'd make the money you might not. >> let's say a guy invents the

light bulb. his price needs to cover the manufacturing cost, and the cost of inventing the thing in the first place. a competitor manufactures a competing copy, the competitor doesn't need to cover the development costs. the bottom line, original creation can't compete with the price of copies. >> that's a video made by a film maker kirby ferguson. if originals can't compete with copies inventors will invent fewer things. what can be done to address that unfair imbalance. >> in the united states the introduction of copyrights and patents was intended to address this imbalance. it covered media. both aimed to encourage the creation and proliferation of new ideas by providing a brief period of exclusivity. >> i wrote this book. how long until you can copy it? that time limit has changed over

the years. >> first in 1831. in 1976 to the lifetime of the authors but author plus 50 years. and now the lifetime of the author plus 70 years. >> no one should be able to own an idea as property. and we should just get rid of all copyrights and patents. that's crazy says lauren siskin who is an international property lawyer. no copy right or trademark. why would i write this? >> why did shakespeare write all those plays and profit throughputing his name on plays that were retellings of old stories? >> why? >> shakespeare did it without copy right. >> they may not have had a copy

right statute at the time. but people who pirated other people's plays were dealt with harshly. >> how? >> he would go after these people, sometimes try to shut down theater. it was copying. and it was wrong. >> but if there was no law how did he shut down theater? >> you have -- in terms of utilitarianism. why do people do something if they don't get reward. it's also a moral issue. someone who creates something has a moral right to protect what he has created, just as a farmer has a right to land that he has mixed his labor with. this is a natural right issue, john. >> the rights that are natural are those founded in the nature of property being scarce. when i hold something it's to the exclusion of someone else. ideas are not like that. when we have laws that allow me

to monopolize the expression of an idea inhibits someone else's free expression. >> what about something that is physical, like a new drug. it costs drug companies a billion dollars to get it through government. if someone could copy it they wouldn't do it. >> pharmaceuticals are a special problem. there are clinical trials and laws. but in other fields like software, where the r & d costs are lower and coming down all the time that people are opting out of the copy right and patent system. >> how do they make money? >> by the strength of their money and product. they do it by competitors by making a good product and selling it and competing with others as the free market is supposed to work. >> it's not always clear how modern life would work. but there is one area of life where government does not enforce trademarks illegal

drugs and intellectual property still exists. in this movie, denzel washington is upset that cuba gooding has watered down his drug blue magic. >> that's a brand name. they know that. when you chop my dope down the one, two, three, four five percent and you call it blue magic, that is trademark infridgement. >> you want me to change the name? >> i would say you change the name. >> fine by me. it's red magic. >> is that how it is supposed to work? he will persuade people? >> if someone wants to copy shakespeares plays and market them as their own. >> sosztossel. >> stossel's hamlet. the audience is going to know you didn't write it.

but the issues work in the private market. you don't need a government to come in and enforce them. >> what about music? i often try to use music on this program. but sometimes i'm told you can't use that. we don't have the rights. there is a parody of how it works. >> but not every opinion -- >> stop the audio. >> who are you? >> i'm at intellectual property attorney and you stole my client's melody. >> lawrence is that what you do? >> in court but not in a workshop. >> to you the laws are reasonable and clear enough? >> like all laws their require tailoring from time to time. reasonable people can disagree on how long the term of a copy right should be. >> the rules are confusing and open people up to lawsuits. >> in 1981 george harrison lost

a $1.5 million case for sub consciously copying "he's so fine" in his ballad "my sweet lord." >> in that case he admit head made a mistake and tried to settle it before it went to trial. the tune was well known. he said it was subconscious. whether it was or wasn't he did not have a right to use someone else's tune. the fact he is a great creative person in his own right didn't give him the right to infringe judge on other people's creative products. >> how would they make money if anyone could copy any song? >> they are making money through doing what they have been doing for ages? by doing performances, by hoping that people will buy their products and in fact they do. you know i live in mexico city and i can walk out my door and buy a pirated copy of anything i want. and box office receipts in

mexico city go up ehvery year. the people who can afford to go to theaters choose to. >> that's all well and good if you have a famous entertainer, a lady gaga or tony bennett. but how does an entertainer become famous in the first place? the reason people will pay to see one of their performances is because intellectual property allowed them to become famous in the first place. >> i don't think that is necessarily true. you see independent performers making money through doing live gigs in small venues and becoming famous too. sometimes it's also make good music. >> let's assume copy right protection is a good thing. what's not is that special interest groups lobby politicians to tilt the tables in their favor. even after making big bucks,

disney, got it for free. >> stories like snow white, pinocchio and alice in wonderland were taken from the public domain. but they lobbied to have the term of copy right extended. >> extended from 75 years to 95 years. snow white, their first movie would be free to copy if they hadn't got a special deal but it's now they control snow white until the year 2032. that's not right. and i don't know -- 70 years after my death i should own this thing? >> they don't have the right to the story for 95 years. what they have the right to is their expression of it. the story of snow white is an ancient german myth and anybody -- >> i could do a cartoon where she is singing. >> you can do a story of any kind you want that involves a bitter queen a mirror, a poison

apple. just as leonard berstein -- >> they won't be sued? >> not for the basic elements. just as shakespeare could not have sued leonard berstein for coming up with west side story. >> and you argue this is the big business cronyism scam to get it extended for so long. >> just because they are not going to win in court doesn't mean they're not going to use their lawyers to scare people. that's what happens and that happens in the patent industry too. >> thank you david lawrence. to join this debate follow me on twitter and use that #ideas or like my facebook page so you can post on my wall. coming up how some magicians managed to protect their trade secrets without suing people. and what i do about people who rip me off.

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. what if you are a magician and have a cool new magic trick. you might patent your trick but the secret would be out there. how does a magician protect his creative work. in a moment i will ask this magician. >> welcome to vert go. >> rick lax invented this trick where a deck of cards seems to float in the air. someone in russia was showing it on the internet and trying to sell the secret behind it. [ speaking foreign language ]. rick lax joins us now. so this russian guy ripped you off? >> he did and made some money doing it. >> how? >> he charged people for this video that he made explaining how to do my trick. >> so a the protect his vertigo trick he made this fake exposure video that claims that it is done with tape.

>> the first thing right there. you see that? tape. >> and at the end of the video he takes off disguise and explains he is conning you. it's a secret to vertigo, you're not going to find it here. no you're not going to find it here or really anywhere. on youtube, i don't think. if you really want to learn how to do it you do have to get the dvd. >> so you try to make money selling dvds explaining it. >> that's right. and i made that video not because i wanted to but because i had to. over 50,000 people watched that video alone. and my fake exposure video where it started off if you are watching it you think you're going to get the secret for free and you say is it done with tape

and it's not really done with tape. and at the end it's me and you find out this isn't how it's done but i can see there is a demand for these expose your videos because 50,000 people watched mine. if you were to google rick lax how to do vertigo you would find hundreds of videos with tens of thousands of hits and some will be real videos. those are videos where the magicians really tell you how it's done and some will be fake ones like the one you just saw. >> go to government, copyright patent, own it sue people who do it. >> it's hard for us magicians to do that. if we want to patent a magic trick in some cases we can. if there is a device that lets us do the trick we can take out a patent but those are publicly searchable so everyone is going to know how it's done. >> here's a magician in a mask that reveals secrets behind

magic. >> this jerk. that's great. >> one, two, three. presto. scarves are gone. how did he do it? >> he had a whole tv show doing this. but you say the community of magicians without getting law involved punished him? >> yeah we exorcised him from the community. he was named valentino. he will not perform anywhere in america. >> he doesn't get work? >> definitely not. once you share the secrets with the laymen we're nervous to share our secrets with you because we're afraid you are going to share it with everyone else. >> in some ways you are like coca-cola, you have a trade secret you done want to write down for people to steal. you want to keep it secret. and coca-cola has done that kentucky fried chicken.

wd-40. google's search alg algorhythm. when you have a trade secret you can keep it a correct for 100 years. >> some people did allegedly steal the secret and went to pepsi with it. and pepsi went to the fbi and told coke. >> stealing a trade secret like that is not just a civil infraction it's a federal crime. they got in real trouble. >> the rare magician who copyrighted a trick is penn of penn and teller. he registered the act with the u.s. copyright office 30 years ago. someone in belgium posted a

video of the trick called the rose and her shadow. i don't know if he grabbed it from the copyright office. teller sued him and he won $15,000. so that's the reason to copyright. >> yeah, except for right now teller might be the exception rather than the rule because even in the ruling the judge said i'm going to give this one to you but so you know you can't copyright a magic trick. i'm going to give it to you because the choreography, that you can have the copyright on. so us magicians are trying to figure out how broad is this ruling. is it only going to apply to teller because there is so much choreography in his trick or might it apply to the rest of us too. >> you can patent the shtick but not the trick. >> we'll go with that. coming up we go undercover

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have you listened to music on the internet without paying for it? lots of people do. this upsets musicians like taylor swift. >> it freaks me out. i will have a meltdown on the show. >> college students download music all the time. but there's a name for what they're doing. >> downloading songs illegally. >> and sometimes the music makers take action. a boston university student copied 30 songs and shared them on the web. the recording industry association sued him and a jury ordered him to pay $675,000. >> $22,000 for every song. >> and that's not right

according to this author. >> the internet has given us a tool to learn and copy. this is how society advances and how humanity grows. copyright laws censors free speech. >> without it people will say and mix and produce less. >> that is not true. today we have piracy that is widespread and most people want their ideas to get out there. the danger to artists and people who want their name out there is piracy. >> so i should be allowed to pirate movies off the internet? >> i think piracy is the wrong term. when you copy information you are not taking anything you are copying their ideas. they still have them. piracy is raiding ships and taking things. >> and the movie industry

complains all the time. >> the wolf is ripped off. the wolf of wall street was downloaded illegally more than any other movie in 2014. others are frozen, robocop gravity and the hobbit. >> piracy they see eye to eye with conservatives. >> you don't respect private property. it's not being stolen. it's been copied. >> i believe in private property as a libertarian. and that is why i think patent law and copyrights are a bad idea. >> that's confusing. >> patents expire after 17 years. copyrights expire a long time later. property rights don't expire. patents and copyrights are not property rights. >> let's make this personal. i'm frankly sometimes happy when i see my show is all over the internet. my goal is to get the ideas out.

but it's a conflict because i also know that why would fox pay me to do this show if they didn't own it and get to make money from it? you steal this show by watching it on youtube may not think about the costs that go into making the show happen. it's not just my salary. i have seven producers who do research, book the guests editors who cut the video. a makeup person, a hairstylist the director, the cost of the car service to pick up the guests like you. how would it happen if they couldn't own the show? protect it? >> you certainly should have the right to have -- it's moral for people to give at contribution credit. if a youtube video is taken there's nothing wrong -- you have to tell where it came from. when you put information out

there, you should be complimented by the fact that people are copying your show. it shows they want to hear your ideas. the more copies the more popular you are. movie studios make money selling tickets. now they can sell dvds and rentals. >> youtube has a channel. they put up a warning video. >> everybody is looking forward to the video from lumpy. russell is a huge fan. >> but youtube warns him. >> russell, you can't create that video, you copied someone else's content. you can be sued. and found liable for monetary damages. if you tube finds you a repeat offender you will be banned for life. >> so sounds like you get punished if people complain you are stealing stuff. >> you will. one of the dangers of copyright is it is used by the state to

regulate the internet. the sopa legislation was defeated a few years ago to stop piracy. and internet source providers have agreed to adopt this six strikes and you're out rule which is like a private out of the court system with no due process which could get you banned from the internet for life. >> not from the internet. >> yes. >> no from the internet. >> has it happened? >> not yet. but the rules are pretty new. it's a danger. >> so you're a patent lawyer. so you are trying to argue yourself out of a job. >> just like an on kolgs is trying to cure cancer. >> good for you. thank you. for those of you who would like to legally watch shows of mine fox business does put them on

the web two weeks after we air. you can get to the website by going to johnstossel.com. coming up why it would cost me big if i would sing happy birthday on this show. and next we go undercover to try to buy some counterfeit goods. you know.... there's a more enjoyable way to get your fiber. try phillips fiber good gummies. they're delicious and an excellent source of fiber to help support regularity. mmmm. these are good! the tasty side of fiber. from phillips when it comes to good nutrition...i'm no expert. that would be my daughter -- hi dad. she's a dietitian. and back when i wasn't eating right, she got me drinking boost. it's got a great taste and it helps give me the nutrition i was missing. helping me stay more like me. [ female announcer ] boost complete nutritional drink has 26 essential vitamins and minerals, including calcium and vitamin d to support strong bones and 10 grams of protein to help maintain muscle. all with

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of all the industries i've covered as a consumer reporter one of the biggest ripoffs is fashion. this dress sells for $1200. these shoes, $1400. this purse is priced at $2500. are you kidding me? who pays that amount of money for a purse. i can walk outside my apartment and buy a bag that looks like that for 20 bucks. and, actually this one is the

high end knockoff. it cost us $200. we got it when we went shopping with hidden cameras. >> louis vuitton. >> the producer bought that bag here in chinatown where people sell all kinds of merchandise. >> is it real? >> rolex. >> he claimed he was selling authentic stuff. >> what one do you want? >> some people admitted their products were not real. >> it's not real. real one is too much money. >> one said if we want the real quality brand-name stuff we need to follow him and meet with this woman in mcdonald's. >> on her phone she showed my producer a bunch of supposedly authentic $1,000 louis vuitton bags. >> real ones? >> which she said she would sell for $200?

>> cash, later. >> and on the street the bag appeared. >> and that's how i got this. the counterfeit fashion industry is big business. craig brigman knows about that. he wrote "the knockoff economy" how imitation sparks innovation. that makes it sound like this is a good thing. >> there is some good that comes out of it. the presence of knockoffs allows people in the u.s. to look good and stylish. people who cannot afford $1,000 for the real bag. that is the cheapest bag they sell and that is $1,000. knockoffs democratize the availability of these items. now it would be bad if it hurt the branded companies if it deprived them of customers they would have.

virtually no one who buys the fake bag on canal street. that is a well-done fake, no one boy buying those bag is going to buy the $25,000 bag. >> you make it sound like the high price company is in on the scam. they know it's going to happen but they're not getting money from the knockoff bag. >> they are not getting money but they are not being harmed either. the people in the market for the real louis vuitton they're going to go out because they want the status that the real louis vuitton confers and they want the shopping experience and how it pampers them. this is what they want. the knockoff has no effect on those folks and those are the folks that louis vuitton cares about. >> one blogger wrote that cheap stores like forever 21 and urban outfitters don't allow for the

creativity of the original creator to be an knowledged. >> in the last 50 years the fashion industry in the u.s. has boomed. all that time, knockoffs have been legal. so copying in the united states helps the fashion industry. it helps to signal to people that a trend has occurred when a fashion is widely copied it tells us there is a trend. we buy into the trend. >> more information. >> more information for people and they buy into the trend. when there is too much copying it signals that the trend is over done and the fashion forward jump on the new trend. the copying helps fuel it. this is good for the fashion industry and good for consumers and for us all. >> even for the fashion backwards like me? >> they benefit as well. the price of clothing hasn't gone up in the last quarter century except for at the top. the louis vuitton and the prada

that rockets up. >> the u.s. customs service, they say the black market for fake handbags shoes and purses fundings other crime rings and it's a big threat to people. >> more than a billion dollars in counterfeits are seized annually as federal agents crack down on what some here call the crime of the century. >> with the explosion of the internet you can buy anything that appears to be legitimate. you think you is a small savings and getting a real product at a discounted price only to find out it's a counterfeit. >> the crime of the century, they call it. >> i'm not sure it's the crime of the century. more than that, it's just true in the world that organized crime has its finger in every pie they can make money. if we want to get after organized crime get after organized crime. the counterfeiting issue is a red herring. >> the international chamber of

commerce claims 2.5 million jobs are lost. >> the international chambers of commerce figures are worth zero. they keep repeating them as if they are a fact. and other agencies have picked them up as if they are fact doesn't make them true. there are a lot of people in business who are making money and they wouldn't be otherwise. so i think in terms of its total economic effect it's a wash. >> you do though, agree, that if it comes to pharmaceutical drugs or airplane parts -- this is a real threat? >> god, yes. i don't want airplanes crashing and people dying. >> we are just talk fashion. >> yeah, nobody died because of a fake handbag. and a lot of the government's efforts in this area are directed not at airplane parts and pharmaceuticals but at handbags. >> chris says a surprising way

to expand your brain is to think about charles dickens. did you read the christmas carole or great expectations or a tale of two cities? these books have sold millions of copies but at the time book sellers in america were not required to pay dickens a dime. >> when the united states was a developing economy it refused to sign treaties and had no protection for foreign creators. charles dickens called it a horrible thing that scoundrel book sellers should grow rich. >> and you say he still made out. >> when dickens visited the united states on a lecture tour he played to standing room only crowd. the equivalent of millions of dollars. >> because they could buy and read cheap books and -- >> they fell in love with him. at his death a significant portion of his estate came from

that trip to america. america became one of the most literate nations on earth because books were cheap. it helped us develop be the world power we are today. >> thank you, chris. coming up. who owns a joke? how do comedians deal with joke stealers? and how do ideal with people who steal my brand? >> welcome to 2020. i'm john stosz el. >> i'm john stossel. >> i'm john stossel. 73% of americans try... ...to cook healthy meals. yet up to 90% fall short in getting key nutrients from food alone. let's do more... ...add one a day 50+. complete with key nutrients we may need. plus it supports physical energy with b vitamins. one a day 50+ huh, fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. everybody knows that. well, did you know words really can hurt you? what...? jesse don't go! jesse...no!

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have you heard of the new dialing procedure for for the 415 and 628 area codes? no what is it? starting february 21, 2015 if you have a 415 or 628 number you'll need to dial... 1 plus the area code plus the phone number for all calls. okay, but what if i have a 415 number, and i'm calling a 415 number? you'll still need to dial... 1 plus the area code plus the phone number. so when in doubt, dial it out!

have you heard this joke? why is six afraid of seven? because seven eight nine. get it? he ate nine? i didn't make that up. we all repeat jokes we've heard before. does that make me a joke stealer? i guess so. i don't know who thought up most of the jokes i tell. what does this mean for professional comedians? what do they do if someone steals their jokes? comedians just work this out. i ask him about this because he is a libertarian. >> they say if you give a man a

fish, he'll eat for a day. but if you teach a man to fish then he's got to get a fishing license and you couldn't cook the fish because you need a permit for an open flame and you have to talk to the health department -- >> a libertarian comedian. doug joins us now. you don't need government to protect your jokes? >> no. comedy is a really good self-policing art form. if you go to an open mic and want to try to get into this business if you are stealing someone's jokes you will be outed and publicly shamed and run out of town. >> and yet robin williams was known as a joke stealer. >> huge. milton berle and robin williams. >> they weren't run out of town. >> there were the anomalies.

there are stories from the comedy store about robin williams coming to the showroom and someone would put him up against the wall by the throat and his manager would write a check for stealing jokes. after he got branded with the scarlet letter of joke thief. >> dane cook was accused of stealing jokes from lewis c.k. he invited cook on lewis' tv show to joke. here is cook first. >> 2006 was the greatest year of my life. i had a double platinum comedy album. first one ever to exist. should have been my triumph. i enjoyed it louis for two months two. months before it started to suck. because everything i read about me was how i stole jokes from

you which i didn't. >> i kind of think of you did. >> so, lewis c.k. has him on his own show? >> yeah. a gentleman. and a lot of things did gang up on dane cook. louis handled it. like a sportsman. he didn't. he didn't antagonize. didn't fan the flames. when he did have dane cook on the show. thought it was brilliant on both side. >> some comedians do lose work because they're accused of stealing jokes. joe rogan went on stage to interrupt a routine. and accused him of stealing joke from many other comedians. >> he had to end the show by saying he is stealing. >> some one steals a riff from a song. >> easy to say you steal it. but i don't.

>> mencia found it tougher to get work after that? >> pretty much destroyed him. mencia was on the top of his game at that point. at comedy central show. selling out theaters around the country. almost immediately after that went viral it destroyed his career. brought him done to my level. that's how, how bad, if i'm doing the wednesday. he is doing thursday at the same same rotten club. >> thank you, doug, we'll raise you up to higher levels. coming up have you brushed your teeth with crust toothpaste? do you use arm & hatchet baking soda, buy coffee at sunbuck's coffee shops? i will explain when i come back. new aleve pm the only one to combine a safe sleep aid plus the 12 hour strength

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. >> happy birthday to you. ♪ happy birthday to you ♪ >> i can't sing the rest of the song. if i did it would cost fox lots of money because the rights to happy birthday are owns by warner music. sheesh bought the rights in 1998. now people pay them $2 million a year to use the song in movies and tv shows the. intellectual property laws have teeth. one guy thinks he can get around the law by changing small things.

he made this youtube clip, watched half a million times. >> happy birthday to you. happy birthday to you. >> cute. lawyers tell me that probably does not make this individually legal. one thing that does make copying legal is pairrody but make a joke about it that is not a copy right violation. good for intellectual freedom. not such a good thing for people like me because -- people make videos like these. >> welcome to "20/20." i'm john stossel. >> i'm john stossel. >> give me a break. >> you want a break. you are going to get a break. i will give you a break right now. [ bleep ]. >> stupid. and there is nothing i can do about that. and practically nothing any of us can do about intellectual property violations in other countries. in china, lots of merchants copy or should i say steal and mangle recognizable american brands. they think it will give their

products credibility. various stores will sell you sunbuck's coffee. tids laundry soap. something called unbelievable this is not butter, arm & hatchet. if you are hungry for fast food, king burger or takeoff on kentucky fried chicken. instead of the colonel. president obama apparently fries the bird. and after you have done all of that eating you can brush your teeth with crust toothpaste. that's what happens in china. in america thomas jefferson once opposed copy right laws. ideas are like candlelight he wrote. he who receives an idea from me receives instruction himself without lessening mine. he receives light. without darkening me. good point. jefferson later backed off that a bit. he said he just opposed the old

english standard. ownership forever. and he did support, for a limited ownership of ideas. maybe 14 years. i don't know where the line should be. but, when ideas are free, creativity blossoms. i like how journalist, matt ridley put it. idea have sex with each other and give birth to new, often better ideas. that helps us all. some libertarians on my show said it would be better if america had no copy right or trademark protection. they made good points. i have to wonder. would i have written the books if publishers hadn't offered money. i doubt it. they gave me money only because they knew that no one was allowed to just, copy the book. i also assume i get paid by fox. only because you subscribers pay for the program. maybe i do this for nothing. i like doing it. maybe. i wouldn't work as the hard and

balk at paying for the cams reand expensive things that go into making tv. i am glad we have some intellectual property laws. that's our show. see you next week. tonight on "red eye." >> tonight on "red eye." coming up on "red eye." the new robot american gladiator gladiators live up to the original. we ask robot experts to speculate wildly. does the president think it is time for joe biden to finish dora the explorer puzzle heel started six years age. >> something he ought to be able to do. let's get that done this year. >> finally does the vice president have a plan to finish the puzzle. >> there are two things, put the last two pieces together. this isn't rocket science. thank you. none of these stories on red eye tonight. now, welcome our guests -- like an