>> mr. gorbachev, tear down this wa >> mr. gorbachev tear down this wall. >> they soon did. >> some people say. >> it is an evil system to benefit a few at the expense of many. >> how is the alternative working? oo there is no fresh bread or meat on sale. >> president obama wants to open the relationship with cuba. >> we will end an outdated approach that for decades failed to advance our interests. but what are our interests? some people think communism is fine. >> communism verses capitalism.

that's our show tonight. >> capitalism works in my lifetime free markets listed 2 billion people out of misery and poverty. lots of americans still sneer at capitalism. s it is unfair the steam where the rich exploit poor people. it is so obvious some countries turn to forms of communism. venezuela voting for that 15 years ago. howing go chavez found higher wages more power to the people and voters believed they voted him into office twice. >> cuba went communist 60 some years ago. cuba is almost as poor as north korea today. the dictators in cuba say we are

only poor because the yankee imperialists starve us. they are talking about the embargo on trade and travel to cuba. now president obama proposes to end that. >> we will end that which failed to help our interests and will normalize relationships>> it's about time weus libertarians say. they could blame the capitolists. the cuban people suffered needlessly. many americans say it's wrong to end the embargo. these protestors call the president a traitor. plenty of politicians oppose ending the ban. senator marco rubio says you should strengthen the embargo. president obama is appeasing our enemies. >> white when the regime was

struggling he through an economic lifeline. that presents a serious danger to our national security. >> this author agrees with cruise and rubio. he was born in cuba. escaped when7. tom palmer says this is one time where obama is right the embargo hasn't worked let's end it. i think he is right it hasn't worked. what's the point? >> not every marvel at all. last year before the obama moves, three times as many people visited cuba from the united states as visited in the 1950's. >> they cheat. they go to some other country first. >> no. it is probably 10 times his money. this is perfectly legal with licenses. >> he says this embargo wasn't

tough enough. if it were the castro brothers would be gone? >> i don't follow this at all. you almost make my case for me. this is not about getting rid of the regime which we were told would be a proposition. it strengthened the kids for the you regime but they have an excuse. >> it's the evil yankees. >> they can prayed towith everybody in the world but we don't believe that. >> while we make it succeed. what's the point? >> it's troe's int -- castro's international terror he is still doing. cuba is listed as a state sponsor of terrorism. >> meaning what? is he sending spies to america to find out our what? >> it is an intelligence trafficker.

they steal military secrets from the united states and sell them on the open market. >> any american could steal secrets. an embargo on castro isn't going to prevent this. >> a u.s. court convicted of the same crimes as julius and ethel rosen rosenburg. the only thing that saved her from going to the electric chair was plea bargaining. >> you push a wedge between the rulers and the people. actually these systematically draw them together. yes there are those that have different views but there are plenty who have said this embargo strengthened it. >> the overwhelming majority favor the embargo. >> so-called embarkgoembargo. president eisenhower started this with possible trade

restrictions. president kennedy expanded when he learned russians were shipping missiles. >> an air quarantine of cuba. our goal it not the victory of might but the indication of wright. >> i was 15 i thought i was going to die in a nuclear bar. the russian trips did turn around. that's the only real success from this. >> that's the only failure of the embargo. what really got those missiles out of cuba into the boats according to khruschev's only son sergei was castro owes letter to his father saying press the buttons. you pise are -- unless something terrible might happen.

there victory by kennedy. this is how he portrayed the last revolution. t was not so long ago that >> it was not so long ago cuba was a different kind of a country. their hotels a mega for tour free terrorists who blocked it from going to the rest of the world. they contributed untils to the economy. then castro came. the sounds of joy were submerged by the sounds of shooting. >> castro convinced the people he was their liberate tore. he gave them the reigns of government. he was afraid when he made him a marxist. >> that was hollywood before michael moore on the left took it over. hoe really made it sound like

precastro cuba was a paradise. >> there was a big difference between preand coast castro. if you left they did not murder you or em briz son you fofor leaving. he was a bad guy that favored his cronies. >> you got out when you were 7 years old. what happened? >> we are going on a plane. me and my mom my brother and sister. they dragged my add off. she is going to the firing squad, okay, we are not -- my dad turns around before he looks at the door and said you are leaving because whatever happens to me i don't want my children growing up in a communist country. >> what happened to your father?

>> he hupts and fishes -- hunts and fishes with his children every weekend now. he got out a few months later. we had a happy ending john but hundreds of thousands did not have happy endings. you can sit on the street corner and hear stories much worse than mine. >> talk about communism itself. castro lied about his intentions. >> we are not communists. very clear. >> we are not communists. >> today you could say that and you would say okay we think that would work. >> he had to lie about it. >> he did. i don't see why it is obvious. >> in cuba communism -- there was a legal communist party they posted elections and won small

margins. >> she lost. they got swamped. the >> the communist idea was for control. you become dependent on the party to say you are loyal to the regime for an apartment for your job, for virtually everything. it is a an ideology for dictatorship. >> once it was established. >> once it was established. when they took power they were not communists. of course not. once had he had power then they brought in and took over the secret police. that was their primary on theive in -- objective in every country. >> it is supposed to be we are all in this together, comrade.

>> the reason they decide they want to get out of it. you are forced into this. george or well predicated it for equality this everyone. people figure it out they want out but they have to be kept in the prison. >> most spends their life overseas in third world countries many communists. he travels to set up libertarian think tanks and those groups. you see a lot of this work. >> the evil empire was there they allowed east germans after retirement age 6 r5. you can leave because they squeezed the life out of you and they didn't senator to pay a pension any more. we have used you up now get out.

>> what do you think would happen? >> what happened to south africa. what happened to apartheidings, an em barge doe everywould you know. >> if you duke they history it is literaled with failure after pail your after failure. they worked in you ban. i haven't worked in cuba. north korea. >> they have north and bub kau in -- cuba enslaving the tax payer from getting fleeced. you guys should know what they are up to it's another raid on us? >> thank you. >> to join this argument please follow me on twitter at s-- or

like my facebook i will put the datous. also an actual communist today presents the case for a a communist today presents the case for communism. in is it cool the trendyness of communism next. ♪ ♪ stouffer's mac and cheese with real aged cheddar now in a convenient cup. new stouffer's mac cups. made for you to love.

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stossel: have you got >> have you got your t-shirt yet? isn't it cool? the name of communism killed a lot of people. he said we must eliminate all newspapers. we cannot make a revolution with the free press. aren't we americans supposed to savor a free press? three years later he said we executed many people by firing squad without knowing they are fully guilty. he killed people without knowing they were guilty. guilty of what? believing in capitalism?

owning a farm? it said he killed thousands of people. you see people wearing shirts like this. >> who is on your shirt? >> chang. >> can you tell me a little bit about him? >> i know he is a revolutionary applied for labor rights. that's why i have him on he's a good role model for us in terms of standing in front of people. >> a good role model? what is she thinking? >> what is she -- >> i have no idea. the first thing to say he didn't fight for labor rights. the cuban government independent labor unions when they came to power in 1959. he within a few years set up the labor camps and penal colonyiescolonies. they are not as brutal as they once were but they are brutal.

he was the executioner. >> why is he on all of these t-shirts? >> we have a picture of the famous model wearing his swim wear here. >> mr. tom brady. i suspect they have a lot of money that was ex appropriated. it has become this popular thing. you see things like carlos san santana going to a concert with his t-shirt on. >> he was a handsome guys. band music that was capitalism decadent like in cuba. they have no idea what they are talking about. they say he is oo a revolutionary and fought for poor people. he acquired that a country cuba

remains poor -- people talk about they are all literature. >> right. two things you always hear is literacy and healthcare. the first thing is the literacy rank which is supposedly # 9 percent. those numbers we get from the cuban government. they are not a trust worthy source. what's the foundpoint of literacy if you aren't allowed to read what you want. if you want to go to a library in central havana, good luck. in 1959 he over through a brutal regime. literacy was 70, 80 percent already it was fairly high. who cares about lack of a free press they have healthcare and

illiteracy. >> the huge popular travel guide lonely planet. cuba retains it serves as a -- people the world over want. >> it is a museum of the past is what it is. the reason there are cars there is because the country is bankrupt. internet access, it is polluted by twitter. >> no they don't have communism. >> it is popular in hollywood. you have got in peru cameron diaz carried a bag with a mou sign ton it. >> i would say i am going to cut cameron diaz a tiny bit of slack. i chalk it up to ignorance. they are extremely wealthy.

i think if you went and took all of their money -- >> it is also the concept of commune. we are all in this together. >> the idea of communism is a simple one. we should all share something. liberal economics it is a very complicated thing. >> that's what we do on this show. it's about working. in terms of positive view of capitalism it isn't just age 30 to 49. only 60 percent have a positive view. 60 to 54. 53 percent barely half. >> this horrible scour raj that lifted people out of poverty lifted hundreds of indians and chinese out of poverty. globalization is a swear word. it is a very sort of complicated

argument to get to the evolvee volume -- resolve which is this stuff works. >> thank you michael. coming up a proud communist who says communism would bring us guaranteed jobs and incomes if we give it a chance. we would fight about that. next. ♪♪ expected wait time: 55 minutes. your call is important to us. thank you for your patience. waiter! vo: in the nation, we know how it feels when you aren't treated like a priority. we do things differently. we'll take care of it. vo: we put members first...

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♪ stossel: the moscow subway it's almost >> the moscow subway it is almost beautiful stained glass and chandeliers. the government geedecided to needed to move pore people without pollution. the result is clean fast trains they come so often you seldom have to wait. >> during rush hour a train stops every minute. >> i was young then. that was one of my 2020 reports when the days when russia was

still communist and the subway was nice. there were plenty of communists at abc 2 who wanted me to point out good things about communism. at somebodies people would say hey in communist countries you don't have to worry about healthcare finding a job you are taken care of. the people of the soviet union rebelled and it became clear communism did not work. >> thousands said the wall has become ir rel vapt. >> i thought finally people understand communism and socialism are not good ideas. despite the failure of central planning every where lots of people still passionately believe in it. jessie meyers is one. he has disorderly conduct. he refers fers to the occupy wall street. >> you call yourself a

communist. >> that's why you invite me on the show. >> are you nuts? you are a smart guy. i have talked to you. what's your reasoning? >> just like you could pointed out the failures of the soviet regimes or communist party led regimes it is very easy to point out failures in capitalistic like ours. you have millions of people in poverty and locked up in prison. >> communism is a terrible failure failure. >> i believe in land value public options for baipging. these are the things i would propose in the united states. i don't think it requires anything like goo logs. >> are you questioning wondering why this hasn't succeeded? >> i think there are good reasons. a lot of people who have done the most significant inquiry is

lexes. they want to do to better than anybody before. we could guarantee materials for everything people were not brining working two, three jobs just to feed their families would be a dream, a libertarian family with everybody with the freedom to pursue happiness. >> i think they do have that freedom now. compared to human history the poor live much better lives. poor people in america have on average more than one car, air-conditioners tv's privilege rate ter toes. i think it's easier these are not the trackings of a full life. communism pucks the life out of people. people just look sad.

they kept their heads down. it wasn't just fear of the secret police. it is communist economics. i went to a restaurant who was supposed to dater to >> yes. >> of course, if i were an important official or as my r -- >> to pie if i am a foreigner then i got in. biners wait for their food and the nurse nurse. this is hiding out in the back. i watch these two guys play with the wine bottles and talk to each other for 10 minutes. meanwhile the diners wait. >> my point is simply that is greed profit seeking motive. people don't try very hard and when they are drive enby prophet

and they try hard they feel good and they kree ace stuff. >> the reason the musician makes works are the reason sociology researcher comes through. there are tons of ways people can recard. there's lots of ways to do that without depriving where wills root the competition who were as out of work. >> their freedom by illegally trying to plaque tais if you standard looking on a busy street looking like an bern tourist.

>> turned out to be my sneakers. >> sneakers? >> new balance. you know the brand name? i shawed >> $60. (speaking foreign language) >> it is 3 beaks pay in ch there are markets that exist oun acor the other. we have to break the power of the market and lead ourselves to be dignified human beings with guaranteed security. >> dignified human beings with guaranteed security in the state. >> from the date -- >> talking ore one another) >> so wonderful to me.

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stossel: capitalism is >> capitalism is an evil system set up to benefit the few at the expense of the many. >> okay. that filmmaker michael moore we have come to expect nonsense like that from him. he's not alone. my last guest was big on communism and when i interviewed people in times square about capitalism and poverty some said things like this. >> capitalism might be the problem that creates so many poor people. >> capitalism creates poor people? i suppose that's true if your definition of pouror is having less than wealthy people.

where capitalism is allowed it is true there is income inequality. many people say that's immoral. eye ram rant who said so what if some people have more than others. that's part of freedom and it is totally moral. huron brook was an institute that staged the fillphilosophy. this is selfish. communists that were left would say it's mean. >> that's ridiculous. take the last comment about the poor. before capitalism 300 years ago 99 percent of the population on the earth were poor everybody except the kings who stole. they were real stealers were basically poor. today everybody including the poor are much much richer than anybody then. it is all due to capitalism that gives them the ability to make and produce at every level they

can and feed themselves. we need to be careful not to conflict what we have today with capitol alism capitalism. what we have today is government run schools, minimum wages we have welfare state that writes you a check. tells you not to work. we don't have capitalism today. when it is tied in and the expense it is tried china millions right on the podium. one of the untold stories of the last 40, 50 years is the fact that 800 million people have come out of poverty in southeast asia because they implemented a bill bit of capitalism. before they do that 10 he's of millions of people are all dead. when someonism is -- >> those were bad leaders. the idea of sharing is good. >> the idea of sharing is what

directly leads to those kind of goulogs. >> why? why should it have to? >> the fact is we are not all the same. we are not equal. look around to any group of people. some work hard some of us don't. the only way to make it equal is to create from those -- take sounds nice. right? take. we are talking about take. we are talking about sticking your hand in your pocket taking out the money stealing. >> you may say i will do that in america. but try not paying your taxes men with guns will come to your house and force you to pay. >> absolutely. the more wealth you create the more innovative you are the harder you work the more they take from you. that is inherently unjust. equality is massively unjust.

when we are clearly also different. >> people told me they like the security that communism gave them. they knew they had a job. >> i could be shooting the morals. i never had downs. >> what is the pop freedom of the stirl americans have to wore tree. life requires worrying and a certain amount of stress. that's what it is. they want to live off of somebody else. somebody has to produce the stuff they live off of. they are always going to be people who want it easy want to just get by. i worked for a while paid by

that really upsetting. >> they were great they were unhappy and they looked miserable. if you don't have a little bit of aing sgliet and if you are not a little pushed. light becomes dull and pouring and beaningness. it is still dull and bad in much of russia but in some countries astonia. czech republic, poland. it brought them wealth and joy. >> it is vibrant and dynamic. the reason in russia they took one of the systems communism and replaced it with fascism. it is state controlled either way. >> coming up, a friend.

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and yet reason magazine editor matt welch said that's not what happened. i thought that's what brought the soviets. reagan's arms build up. >> it's not the only thing that happened. reagan and the united states and the west were certainly very important. when gorbachev decided not to crack down on germany with force of arms which had been the soviet way. that allowed these things to happen. however, there were very popularity anticommunist revolutionaries all throughout eastern europe that very much helped this thing to happen. and they didn't do it generally speaking by firing a single shot. they did it through principled disdense, protesting and acts of >> they called it the velvet revolution there. what was that about? >> because the velvet under ground smuggled in a tape in prague in 1968. it lit the people on fire. there was a band there the

plastic people of the universe. it played a lot of velvet under ground covers. all of it was forbidden. they were thrown in jail for disturbing the peace because they had unauthorized rock muse i go and grew their hair long which was also a crime. they said that's it. enough is enough. charter 47 anti someonist group in the world. >> in east germany. he is saying born in it the usa. look at the size crowd that was there. i am amazed they allowed this. this helps bring freedom to east germany? >> i would argue it did. when you see the liberating kind of force of rock and roll music. >> and all of these east germans

sanging porn in the u.s.a. >> so in pro mania they only had four-hours of television a day. first dallas. they approved it. just like bruce springsteen is going to show. woody guthrie or show things that were critiques oh my gosh speed people look at that dad cadillac. with you kidding. the velvet revolution was started by students. people who were my age. i went back in 1990. the there was nothing to buy there except potatoes and onions. by freedom of expression.

it occurred in astonia. under soviet oppression. >> in one night, 10,000 men, women and children were taken from their homes. loaded into cattle cars. and shipped to slave labor camps in siberia. >> they livednder ee >> they lived under soviet rule for under 50 years. >> the xhoounist party issued a stern warning. waved the purred did en. today they call it the singing revolution. nearly a third of -- the soviets tried to stop the process by sending troops seizing the raydio stationed.

eventually the soldiers backed off. >> people saying no more. >> what happens is when enough people say forget it i am no longer going to listen to what you are telling me to do and not two. that moment becomes when everything is exposed being a thin thin issue so somebody can break through and express their own freedom. >> thank you. that happened to our big government regulatory state? i doubt it. coming up it is clear communeism >> will america embrace cap dollism we have found a third way. ld... take time for sunday.

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>> >> i mentioned earlier i was naive when the wall fell everyone wakes up and see communism failed. was i wrong. progressives said maybe communism failed but capitalism isn't so good. we need to come up with something in between. >> my fellow americans we have found a third way. >> i suppose you could say his third way is what we have today. capitalism is allowed but it is smothered in government. a doctor can run his own practice but obamacare sets the

rules. am banks can invest in things but they better obey every word in dodd frank. clouds became prime minister at the czech republic after they said the third way is the fastest route to the third world. i think he was wrong. actual communism is faster venezuelians show that now. people can't prosper with this when there are so man capriy rules. politicians say it makes life fairer but they taught me life is the fairest when people are free to make our own decision. i had already figured that out by the time abc sent me to russia. part of the problem is the way decisions are made here. let's contrast it with the way things work in the u.s. in a capitalist society the people have a naming as to what bets produced.

in a way we vote with our dollars. if we like a product we will make more of it. we will make more of it because we want to make money. the only way to make money is to give the public what it wants. if it was centrally planned the government would set the word. i ordered tens of ♪ >> you had long lines and shortages in the soviet union. some lie and increasingly some use political infections. it is not real capitalism. real capitalism is good because it's voluntary. transactions ap we know only when both parties are happy with someone. most every day i buy something from a store clerk. every time something odd happens. they say thank you.

>> thank you. >> thank you. >> so do i. there's the odd double thank you moment. >> have a great day. thank you. >> thank you. >> why the double thank you when i pay already she wanted the daughter more than i want the copy. today's riftist will claim that in the exchange if i ask the other other or shop produces the shop peeper keeper. the relationship is fair not because the two parties are equal but because capitalism is voluntary. nothing gets sold unless each party thinks we came out of his. the free market is volume lun terry.

government is forced. voluntary is better. that's our show. see you next week for a new episode again in our new time spot. good night. ♪ ♪ will. announcer: was he a lifelong corridor or collector? the answer lies in sizes knowledge regard told what rusty old cars. which is the truth? we are about to find out. ♪ ♪