economy and create jobs. see how new york can give your business the opportunity to grow at ny.gov/business and i love saying it. have a great weekend. >> the day-old tradition is judeo christian tradition in this country is under attack. >> is there a war on religion? this woman sells flowers to rob. >> i love rob. he's very special to me. >> but when rob married a man -- >> i couldn't do his flowers. >> government says she must. >> it's not about the money. it's about freedom. >> the government says these indians must give up their feathers. government said she must pay for contra essential. >> the government demanding that we choose between our care for the elderly poor and our faith.

>> church and state. that's our show tonight. and now, john stossel. >> religious oppression was a big reason many of our ancestors came to america. the king of england wanted everybody to worship his way. when america's founders wrote the bill of rights, they were quick to protect religious freedom. i think of it protecting free speech. free speech comes after that. so religious freedom has been a big deal in this country and yet, as our government grows and extends its tentacles into every cranny of life, government has increasingly infringed on some people's religious choices.

in oregon two american indians were denied unemployment benefits because they'd been fired for using pay oaty. they say pay oaty is part of my religion. the law said too bad. it covers everybody. so the rfra act was signed. government should not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion unless there's a compelling governmental interest. many states have pass there had own versions of that. but when indiana passed one, you no he what happened one. >> we ought to sue the hell out of these people. >> this law is brutal, unjust and it has to change. >> some democratic politicians banned state-funded travel to indiana. musicians canceled appearances. one called it thinly disguised legal discrimination.

the president of marriott hotels called the law pure id yossy. remember a democratic president, bill clinton signed rfra. now that same law is in a republican state, that's evil? most every democrat and republican opposed gay marriage. today if you don't actively support gay marriage by catering a gay wedding or baking a wedding cake you're a horrible republican bigot? crazy. but let's leave the political hypocrisy alone for a second. must you cater to gay weddings? no says the religious liberty. you must cater the wedding? why? >> you must cater it because

public accommodations laws are designed to be a compelling government interest. that is to say we have given up on race discrimination largely as a culture. we've given up on gender discrimination, but we haven't given up on discrimination against the gay and lesbian community. and if somebody wants to pass a law that this is what the government believes is right, then it trumps the claims of somebody who won't cater pizza to a wedding >> that's absurd claim. religious is it should be free of government coercion. a gay photographer should not be coerced by the government or anyone else to photograph or participate in a ceremony eve the homophobic baptist church. >> you know, this idea of participating in a wedding. i do weddings, did several this

past summer. a participant in a wedding -- >> you mean are you a reverend. >> i -- >> you would do a ku klux klan wedding or nazi wedding? >> all ministers all priests, all rabbis all imams can make a choice not to do something even like a mixed religion ceremony. >> what about the pizza seller? >> because they are not in a religious service. >> the fact is we have a long, long tradition of being able to live according to our deeply-held convinces at work and at home. >> yes. >> and you are the totalitarian left. >> what matters so me is that there is this fully-blown, totally justified effort to stamp out discrimination against people who have what are called immutable characteristics. >> it doesn't work out.

it, what rfra provided was a balancing test. what rfra gives these individuals is a day in court. >> but that isn't a good idea. it means everybody has to lawyer up. what about having private life, to do what you want, as long as you don't physically assault a gay person. >> in the last 22 years, there hasn't been one single case when a restaurant opener said i will not serve you because you're gay. not one single case where they won in court. >> the reason i supported the religious freedom restoration act and ted kennedy and a lot of other people nobody thought it applied to for-profit corporations. the supreme court says it does by a 5-4 decision. >> is it bad? >> and there might be people in some circumstances, but they don't practice religion. hobby lobby, the big case from the past summer. these people make do it yourself flamingos. >> that is so offensive.

this is the green family. the green family started their business out of their garage with a $600 loan. they have 26,000 employees. >> let me explain that to the viewers in case they're not on top of hobby lobby. obamacare does demand that businesses care for birth control pills and morning-after pills. this one business sued to say we shouldn't be forced to pay for what we believe to be immoral. last year the supreme court agreed and ruled that hobby lobby and other small privately-held corporations could get exceptions. so christina, congratulations. but it's pathetic. they have to go to court each time, beg for an exemption. >> worst than that the government exempted millions of

americans for certain reasons or friends of the government. but they refused to ebsxempt the green family or the little sisters of the poor. >> is there political hypocrisy here? and the answer is no. nobody believed that these for-profit companies could exercise religion. maybe the church could. but not a big company. if ted kennedy for example had heard that this was intended to deprive women, because of some kind of yesterdayidiosyncratic view -- >> what do you mean? >> because it's very expensive to get. >> oh, come on. $9 at walmart. >> $9 at walmart. >> in your world if government doesn't pay for it -- >> no, in my world, you should have a choice. >> you have a choice. >> if it provides health care, it can provide that, or --

>> somebody else has to pay for your health care? you can't spend your own $9? you on the left use the word deprive, keep women from getting their -- >> yes, absolutely. it does have that effect. $9 may not be much to any of the people here, but it does make a big difference. >> you don't even have to spend the $9. can you go to a planned parent hood clinic and get those same contraceptives for free. >> but they consider this murder. they have to pay for murder? >> no but i'm old enough to have been through the vietnam period. there were conscientious objectors. not too many. but you had to write a virtual treatise on why you oppose war in any form. >> they considered the vietnam war murder. >> and i understand people in the right to life movement can and do believe that performing an abortion is murder. now we're supposed to believe that against those two claims comes somebody who won't deliver pizza to your wedding.

>> thank you, barry. christina, day with us because we're going to meet another person that beckett is defending. i say, in a free country, people ought to have the right to discriminate. government must not. the worse of american racism and homophobia slavery, segregation enforced by jim crow, state bans on interracial marriage, anti-sodomy laws and so forth was government discrimination. and that's wrong. but private actions are different. if i start a business, with my own money, i ought to be allowed to serve only libertarians or people who wear blue shirts, whatever. it's my business. my customers have choices. if i'm racist or anti-gay free market competition will punish me. enough people will boycott my business and i'll lose money. punishment from market competition is enough. more and more oppressive law is not needed here. in private life we don't need

religious freedom acts. it should be part of the individual freedom. part of being an earn in. that's what i think, but i'm losing this battle because religion is constantly under threat. in texas, the apache tribe celebrated by conducting this ceremony, it includes wearing feathers including eagle feathers then the government raid one of their powwows and the pastor was threatened to be arrested. the government took the feathers and threatened the pastor because he didn't have a permit for the eagle feathers. the pastor joins us now. really? >> 15 years. ma's what i was told. >> and so you could fight them but it would bankrupt the tribe, i assume, but beckett took your case for nothing. >> right. >> and what happened? >> agents came into pastor

soto's family powwow and asked around. they took some people out of the circle and confiscated his eagle feathers. >> you're not killing eagles, right? >> no we don't believe in killing eagles, because the eagle is a sacred bird. >> and eagles are not endangered anymore. >> no, they're not. >> there are 50, 69000 of them. >> the eagles became something we consider sacred. not that we worshipped the eagle but we used it in ceremonies like in the circle. so basically the government sent agents to destroy our spirit ult. what was . >> what was your reaction? what the -- >> yeah, because we've been doing these for 30 40 years maybe longer. to have an agent dressed like a tourist, several, maybe. we don't know, take pictures,

document what everybody was wearing. >> why do they care so much? it's not like the eagle is in danger. >> it goes back to our spirituality. however controls the spirit controls the person. >> they want to hurt you by taking your feathers? >> the unfair law to govern not just our spirituality, but everything as a native people. >> after nine years of litigation the government finally returned the confiscated eagle feathers. a government official pompously read the list of evidence he was returning >> box with 44 eagle feathers with their dwilquills wrapped in navy blue. >> so a bitter ending? >> a bittersweet. seeing them for nine years having been locked up in a box.

we got these eagle feathers were all these restrictions. i'm the only one who can use these feathers, no nobody can borrow them. i have to carry a permit that says i have permission to carry these feathers. when i die, for example, nobody can inherit these feathers. sob's going to be knocking the door and taking them back to the government >> do you ever think that our government has become power mad and almost insane? >> absolutely. the government has grown beyond its reach and is infringing on the religious liberty of all groups, including american indians. >> thank you robert and christina. to join this discussion follow me on twitter at fbn stossel and use the #religion. coming up america is unique in that the founders created the first free market in religion. how's that worked out?

and next, what conservatives call the war on religion. i don't see it. >> it's more than a war on religious liberty. this is war targeting the christian faith.

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there's no doubt that judeo christian tradition in this country is under attack. >> yeah, there is doubt. i never could get my brain around this war and christmas complaint. america is predominantly a christian country. and for years lots of my colleagues here at fox news said faith is under attack. >> this is a war targeting the christian faith. >> tar getting christians? i just don't see it. except maybe a few fringe groups. one of which we'll hear from later. but most americans are christians. we celebrate christian holidays like christmas and easter. 90% of americans say they believe in god. 40% say they go to church every week. in france and germany, fewer than 10% go. in denmark, 3%.

one poll asked americans would you vote for a presidential candidate who is black? a woman? catholic? jewish? a muslim? the majority said yes. the group that did the worst, with 43% saying no i wouldn't vote for them, was atheists. this is a religious country. that's not good for me. i'm not religious. but by not being religious makes me a clear minority. i want to ask tony perkins. what are you religious people complaining about? you've won. >> well, john, certainly and fortunately, americans, here, christians, other religious americans are not losing their lives like they are in the middle east but as you've talked about already on your program, they are losing their rights. we're seeing increasingly government come in, and this line of separation that we've heard about so long that separates church from state, it's not being breached by the

church. it's being breached by the state as the state is taking away rights of religious americans sflchlts. >> this is pretty rare. >> i don't think so. we've seen it on school systems, college campuses. >> how have we seen it in school systems? >> when students, valedictorian, salutatorians begin to give their commencement speeches, offer prayers you'll see young people like roy costner who just wanted to give credit to where credit was due, and that was with his lord and savior jesus christ, and he was shut down. and he did it anyway. >> but by shut down the school board said you cannot recite the lord's prayer in your speech. >> he had to get a pre-approved speech, all right in? this is his personal speech. he went through all the process.

on graduation day he ripped up that speech and gave the speech he wanted to give. >> and here's a clip of that. valedictorian at liberty high school in south carolina disobeying the rule from his school board. >> most of you understand when i say our father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name thy kingdom come. [ applause ] >> and the audience was clearly with him. so these are, this is an idiot school board and a few isolated incidents. >> well, they're not so isolated. in fact john we have a document called hostility to religion, that's a catalog of these cases increasingly across the country. school boards city councils where you have these groups like the freedom from religion foundation threaten lawsuits, and because of tight budgets oftentimes they back down, and they violate the first amendment rights of students citizens and this is increasingly

happening. it's not isolated. it's becoming widespread in our culture today. >> and when you mock this title, freedom from religion foundation. sounds reasonable to me, because i want to be free from religious coercion, say from the christian majority. >> i agree. and you're not forced to for instance, where roy led that audience in citing the lord's prayer. nobody was going to come out there and move your lips and make you say the words, but others should be able to if they want to. we're better off if people do it in church both individually and collectively. >> why? >> because we look at it in the numbers. and this is based on the government's own research, children for instance who grow up in homes where there's regular church attendance do better in math and science scores, they're less likely to become involved in criminal behavior less likely to become pregnant out of wedlock.

it has positive the results for all. >> not necessarily all. one story said republicans lost the culture war. gay marriage contraception. the public has turned against conservative christians on those issues. >> they've been writing those stories for probably 25, 30 years that every election cycle how the religious right is dead how social conservatives are gone, but it's amazing when you look at the potential presidential candidates how many are actually in the field vying for that social conservative vote. when you look at last election cycle, 2012, not that long ago of the primary voters for republicans 50% were evangelical social conservatives. and in the general election it's 25%. so i don't think they're going away any time soon. >> no. thank you, tony per kins. coming up a debate be withwith

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love. it's what makes a subaru a subaru. . want a swug of whiskey? it's sunday. depending on what state you're in, you may not buy this bottle. that's because sunday is a day of worship. you're supposed to be in a christian church. but wait a second. aren't you supposed to have religious freedom in america? some religions worship on different days, and even if you go to church on sunday, why can't you buy a bottle after church? because blue laws still ban that in a dozen states. originally they outlawed no sunday work. no buying selling public entertainment or sports even. they're called blue laws because that's not clear.

connecticut posted them on blue paper paper. who knows the reason. but there are fewer blue laws now. but the fact that they exist in many places is very wrong says kathryn mangu ward. >> the idea that there is a law that by prohibiting me from getting my minimum owemosas on sunday morning? i say it's too little, too late. there's this funny, archaic thing. >> maybe that will encourage some people to go to church and they'll be better people because of it. >> the idea that people shouldn't want to work or buy on a sunday morning is just as thick and offensive as saying go to church. >> it's fine if they don't want to but to tell them "you may not", is the big difference. and it's not just liquor.

it's also car dealerships are required to close. 12 states prohibit sunday liquor sales. we put those names up. 13 states outlaw car dealerships from opening on sunday. and they are often different states. >> there's this very weird in the case of liquor sales, it's a literal bootleggers, but with car sales too. >> bootleggers and baptists, explain that. ? the political science brewuce gann dal pointed it out. it's little difficult to determine how businesses would be hurt. your little local liquor store doesn't want to open up on sunday and pay workers overtime which the total beverage around

the corner or walmart are protecting themselves >> just like bootleggers work the bootleggers were making money. >> it's a powerful coalition. >> here's another blue law. in some states you may not sell stuff on thanksgiving. that ban may have led to some of the craziness that's happened on the next day, the big shopping day often called black friday. to get around some of this badness some stores started opening early. but thanksgiving is a day we're supposed to be with our family. >> maine massachusetts it is illegal to be open on thanksgiving. people have this temptation to let work crowd out all the other thins that matter. family, faith. and they have to be told again and again knock it off. you think people are lazy but

they work too much. >> americans work too much? >> maybe but they should be able to choose their own days off. the eye dhee aidea that a burns ofnch of guys know what's best for us. >> isn't it best that we are home instead of shopping for commercial, crass stuff? thank you kathryn mangu ward. coming up my debate with an atheist.

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. >> let's protect the distinction between our faith and our gover let's protect the distinction betweand government. >> it wasn't barring god from the public square. >> so what did they mean? most of us are for separation of church and state, but how far

should government and religion be separated? >> i don't believe in an america with a separation of church and state is absolute. >> absolute. it certainly isn't now. in some towns the ten commandments are posted conspicuously in front of courthouses. is that wrong? what about "in god we trust" being all over our currency. david silverman president of the american atheists says both are wrong. but harry says it's a myth that the constitution even requires separation of church and state. really? i thought it did. >> absolutely. the words separation of church and state are nowhere to be found in our constitution. the fact of the matter is our founders were by and large men of great faith who were neither ashamed nor afraid to acknowledge that our rights come not from man, not from government, but from almighty god, the creator god.

and the first thing that our founders did after they enacted the first amendment was to establish a chaplaincy in the u.s. congress and to hire not one but two chaplains to start every session with prayer. >> it's not in the constitution. where did this separation idea come from? >> the phrase doesn't have to be in the constitution. it is however civil law. and when we're talking about the separation of church and state -- >> what do you mean civil law? >> the united states supreme court interprets the constitution. and it is civil law. >> invented it out of then air. >> not totally thin air. there was this treaty of tripoli. >> that's the smoking gun that says i win. it was signed on order of george washington. >> you're saying the got of the united states is not in any sense founded in the christian

religion. >> black and white, smoking gun i win you lose. >> you can revise history all want to. the fact of the matter is our founders were not afraid to acknowledge god and they did that in our founding documents. the declaration of independence says we are endowed by our creator with inalienable rights. they weren't afraid to acknowledge god, and they did. >> throughout our history, our nas has always been a nation that blessed god. >> lincoln and jefferson were not religious. >> and neither was thomas payne. patrick henry was. they got together and put together a secular constitution that separates -- >> let's talk today. i could see, hairrryharry, that he as a big eighthiest,atheist, with a big cross and ten commandments would

think, this court isn't going to be fair to me. >> he would be wrong. >> i am surprised to see in god we trust on all our currency. this is not something the founders did. it started to appear in the time of the civil war it appeared on coins. didn't appear on the dollar bills until i was 10 years old. this is politicians monkeying around. >> our founders acknowledged god in our foundational document. >> ak knowledged him. it's different from putting him on every coin. >> patrick henry said when people forget god, tie rants forge their chains. i've lived in a nation -- >> you grew up in romania. >> and i experienced the chains that the tie rants forged. they said our rights come from man. >> totalitarians, god or not,

they would have been bad news. >> once you take god and morals out of the equation the sky is the limit, my friend. >> we can debate the history all we want. do we want a nation that picks and chooses who gets more rights than others? or do we want a nation of equals. >> you eight yiss are obnoxious objecting to these ten commandments, your rights aren't being threatened. >> every step away from separation of church and state is a step toward theocracy, and yes, it does harm us. >> how? where? >> when you're an american citizen, and the money says that you're a second class citizen. when the pledge of allegiance is said and your kids have to acknowledge against your wishes -- >> it is not coercive or

repressive for an atheist to allow his fellow man to express their belief in god. >> why should churches have a tax deduction? >> churches, like all 501 c 3s -- >> you see all these giant churches sitting empty six days a week. >> paying no property taxes and not filing their forms. billions and billions of dollars goes into the church -- >> figure out how much -- >> a valuable service to the public. >> but if you have the government reviewing the forms of the churches, determining which churches have proper beliefs. >> we have to file 990s every year. if you want to go to the government, we have to report our income every year. we have to report how we're spending our money every year.

we have to defend our non-profit status every year. churches don't because they're churches. that's religious discrimination. >> is that the government favoring -- >> no, it's not at all. because government shall make no law establishing religion. >> you recognize the irs tax code differentiates between secular and religious organizations. >> you made this exact claim in a federal lawsuit and you lost. >> you're flat out avoiding -- >> we are flat out out of time. the surprising result when government neglected religion. turned out to be good news for religious people. i am totally blind. and sometimes i struggle to sleep at night, and stay awake during the day.

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. john: i'm so i'm so surprised when president obama makes a speech and actually says something that's true and wise. here's one of those rare times. >> the united states is one of the most religious countries in the world. one of the reasons is that our founders wisely embraced the separation of church and state. >> in other words he says because government in america mostly left religion alone, religion thrived in america. and he's right. it's the opposite of his usual

arguments about health care, education or whatever. he normally wants more government. but he's right that religion did better here because government left it alone. larry ioconi is an economist at chapman university and explained this to me. so explain it to our audience. >> well vnl a market phenomenon like other ones. and when you make the government the arbiter the funder of religion, it operates like a typical laszy monopoly. and incentives are lost. the clergy get focussed on pleasing the politicians. >> they just want to suck up to the king. >> at best, a combination of the american post office and public schools. >> what do you mean the united states was the first religious free market. >> it deregulated the religious

market and let every religion practice freely. >> i always assumed people came here to escape religious tyranny. >> the puritans came here to escape religious tyranny, true, puritans came here to escape religious tyranny, true. but to establish their own religion. and when they got to massachusetts, they taxed people to support that religion, they persecuted other religions. so in the northeast, it was puritanism, or call van-- call van itch. elsewhere was ka catholicism. >> what changed? >> the american revolution and they agreed the federal government would neither regulate or establish religion. >> then something odd happened.

when they did that they thought it would hurt religion. >> absolutely. it's the argument that says we need the government to provide a service. otherwise it won't be provided. in fact, what happened to religion is it blossomed. we ended up with more religion, better and safer religion. >> in 1776, 17% were part of church organizations. now 48%. >> we've seen steady growth throughout this period in religious involvement, religious enthusiasm. the diversity and variety of different religions around and the services they provide. >> competition also works. the older state religions diminished. the anglicans the puritans and new groups blossomed. >> it's a bit like ibm versus apple or facebook. the baptists, methodists, pentecostal

pentecostals. it keeps happening. >> these groups took over functions we thought of as government functions. >> whether it was school health care prison ministries. a whole panoply of services that we tend to associate now with government. >> and while these good things were happening in america, in europe religion declined. >> yeah. these monopoly religions were not adapting to changes in society and technology. >> they didn't have to, because the state supported them. >> that's right. and the other was that increasingly the growing welfare state crowded their functions right out. some of them sold off their hospitals, their schools their old age homes to the state thinking that they could focus on just the spiritual matters. >> and they would save money. >> and when you separate the spiritual missions of church,

you cut the heart out of them. >> thank you very much, larry.

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. john: when it comes to religion, i'm confused. my parents were when it comes to religion, i'm confused. my parents were born jewish. but they weren't religious. when they left germany for america, before hitler, they practiced no religion. when i was born, they joined

this protestant church, mainly to help us assimilate in our new country. so i was raised a congregationalist. but i never really got into it. i wanted to believe me. i still want to. i see the sense of peace that many religious people have. some say it's because they know what god wants of them. i want that. so i've tried to become religious. in my hippie days i even tried buddhism. hinduism too. later i studied judaism. nothing stuck. i'm still not convinced that any religion really knows what god has in mind or even that there is a god. and i'm always surprised that most americans do believe. do you believe in god? >> i believe in god, yes. >> yes, i do. >> yes, very much so. >> do you believe in godsome >> yes. >> do you believe in god? >> absolutely. >> how do you know good exists? >> it's just a belief, that's

all it is. >> just a belief? that's not enough for me. i want evidence. but i cringe to say that in this country where most people do believe, you may dislike me because i'm uncertain. maybe you'll stop watching my teach program and i'll get fired. but that's the breaks. because i've talked about this publicly, some poem pray for me. heavenly father, fall fresh upon stossell. reveal yourself such that he may know you. others trash me for being an atheist. faith haters are jerks like stossell. but i'm not a faith hater. i envy those of you who have faith. i'm also not an atheist. many atheists are certain there's no god. i'm not certain. i'm agnostic. i want to be convinced. i just haven't been. please, god, give me a sign. nothing. there's no question that faith does good things for people. i mentioned a sense of purpose

that some people get from serving god, a commitment to something bigger than themselves. belief in god correlates with happiness. i wish i had more of that. i'm not all that happy. but is it religion itself that makes people happy. maybe just going to church persuades you to be more charitable and charity brings happiness. charity givers are 40% more likely to say they're very happy. but you don't have to be religious to give. just give. it's also possible that going to church or temple or mosque leads you to be happy because you're doing things with other people. i don't know how to sort this out. but i do know that separation of church and state is a good thing. when people are free to choose how and when to worship, or not to worship, we are all freer and

better off. that's our show. see you next friday for a new episode again in our new friday time slot on fbn. live from america's news headquarters. iraqi ground forces are working to retake the country's biggest old refinery from isis. troops have seized most of the massive complex amid heavy fighting with the terrorists. it's just the latest in the struggle for the facility located about 25 miles north of tikrit. iraqi forces took the refinery back from isis in november, but the terrorists reclaimed it again this week. blasting through a security perimeter. the battle against isis appears to be ramping up in iraq with deadly terror attacks reported around the country.