friends, living the american dream. a perfect example. happy birthday, sal. >> the debate is next. >> this is the first official event in the campaign for the republican nomination for president. welcome to cleveland, ohio. it is debate night. i'm bill hemmer. >> and i'm martha mccallum. it all starts here. we are ready, the candidates are ready. we're live at the quicken loans arena where we've partnereded with facebook to bring you the voter into today's debate. >> you'll hear from all 17 candidates tonight. you'll meet seven of them right now. starting with three-time governor in the state of texas, rick perry. >> also two-time senator from pennsylvania, rick santorum.

>> two-time governor of the state of louisiana, acting governor, bobby jindal. >> businesswoman and former ceo of hewlett-packard, carly fiorina. >> the senior senator from south carolina, lindsey graham. >> former three-term governor of new york, george pataki. >> and former virginia governor, jim gilmore. >> now this debate will last one hour. we're going to have four commercial breaks. each candidate will have one minute to answer each question. and 30 seconds for rebuttal. if you run out of time you're going to hear this. okay? >> gentle. let's hear what the others are going to get later, huh? one year from now, a republican nominee will be standing on this stage in this very same arena. that person is in cleveland today. so let's get started. first topic electability. first question to governor perry from texas. welcome, governor. >> good to be with you.

>> you were in charge of the 12th largest economy in the world. you recently said that four years ago you weren't ready for this job. why should someone vote for you now? >> after those four years of looking back and being prepared, the preparation to be the most powerful individual in the world requires extraordinary amount of work. not just having been the governor of the 12th largest economy in the world, which i might add we added 1.5 million jobs during that period of time. over that 2007 through 2014 period, a period when america was going through the most deep recession it had been through since the great depression. i think americans want someone to have a track record of showing them how to get this country back on the record. someone who will stand up and every day project that best days of america are in front of us. and i will assure you, as the governor of the state of texas and as those last four years

have shown me, the preparation to be ready to stand on this stage and talk about those monetary policies, those domestic policies and those foreign policies, americans are going to see that i'm ready to be that individual. >> thank you, governor. >> now we go to carly fiorina. carly, you were ceo of hewlett-packard. you ran for senate and lost in california in 2010. this week you said, margaret thatcher was not content to manage a great nation in decline and neither am i. given your current standings in the polls, is the iron lady comparison a stretch? >> well, i would begin by reminding people that at this point in previous presidential elections jimmy carter couldn't win, ronald reagan couldn't win, bill clinton couldn't win, and neither could have barack obama. i started as a secretary and became ultimately the chief executive of the largest technology company in the world, almost $90 billion in over 150

countries. i know personally how extraordinary and unique this nation is. i think to be commander in chief in the 21st century requires someone who understands how the economy works, someone who understands how world works and who's in it. i know more world leaders on the stage today than anyone running with the possible exception of hillary clinton. understands bureaucracies how to cut them down to size and hold them accountable and understands technology which is a tool but it's also a weapon that's being used against us. most importantly, i think i understand leadership, which sometimes requires a tough call in a tough time. but mostly the highest calling of leadership is to challenge the status quo and unlock the potential of others. we need a leader who will lead the resurgence of this great nation and unlock its potential once again. >> thank you. >> senator santorum, you won the iowa caucus four years ago and ten other states. but you failed to beat mitt romney for the nomination. and no one here tonight is going to question your conviction or your love for country. but has your moment passed,

senator? >> i would say the message that got us the win in iowa and ten other states against pretty overwhelming odds is the message that's going to deliver us in this election. we didn't start out four years ago at the top of the heap. we were behind where we were today. but we stuck to our message. we stuck to the fact that americans are tired of washington corporate interests and democrats who are interested in just politics and power and they're looking for someone who's going to fight for them. looking for someone who's going to grow manufacturing sector of our economy so those 74% of americans who don't have a college degree are having a chance to rise again. someone who's going to stand up and be very clear with our enemies as to the lines their going to draw and stand with them. i've got a track record. the reason i did so well last time is not just because of the vision, it's because i have a track record in washington, d.c. of getting things done. iran sanctions, the iran sanctions that brought them to the table, those are sanctions that we put in place when i was in the united states senate.

and a whole host of other things that put me in a position of saying i not only have a great vision but i can govern effectively in washington. >> thank you, senator. >> governor jindal, you're one of two sitting governors on the stage tonight. but your approval numbers at home are in the mid 30s at this point. in a recent poll that showed you in a head-to-head against hillary clinton in louisiana, she beat you by several points. so if the people of louisiana are not satisfied, what makes you think that the people of this nation would be? >> well, first of all, thank y'all for having us. i won two record elections. last time i was elected governor, won a record margin in my state. we got a lot of politicians that will kiss babies, do whatever it takes to be popular. that's not why i ran for office. i ran for office to make the generational changes in louisiana. we've cut 26% of our budget. we have 30,000 fewer state bureaucrats than the day i took office. i don't think anybody has cut

that much government anywhere at any time. as a result, eight credit upgrades. as a result, a top ten state for private sector job creation. and we fought for statewide school choice where the dollars follow the child instead of the child following the dollars. we've been the most pro-life state six years in a row. my point is this. i won two landslide elections. i made big changes. i think our country is tired of the politicians who simply read the polls and fail to lead. both democrats and republicans have gotten us in the mess we're in. $18 trillion of debt. a bad deal with iran. we're not standing with israel. i think the american people are look for real leadership. that's what i've done in louisiana. that's what i'll do in america. >> senator lindsey graham, you worked with democrats and president obama when it came to climate change. something you know is extremely unpopular with conservative republicans. how can they trust you based on that record? >> you can trust me to do the following. that when i get on the change with hillary clinton we won't be debating about the science but

about the solutions. in her world, cap-and-trade would dominate. that will destroy the economy in the name of helping the environment. in my world we'll focus on energy independence and a clean environment. when it comes to fossil fuels we're going to find more here and use less. over time we're going to become energy independent. i am tired of sending $300 billion overseas to buy oil from people who hate our guts. the choice between a weak economy and a strong environment is a false choice. that is not the choice i'll offer america. a healthy environment, a strong economy and energy independent america that. would be the purpose of my presidency is break the strangle hold that people enjoy on fossil fuels who hate our guts. >> thank you, senator. >> governor pataki, four years ago this month you called it quits in a race for the presidency in 2012. but now you're back. mitt romney declined to run this time because he believed that

the party needed new blood. does he have a point? >> i think we need somebody who hasn't been a career politician and who's been out of office for awhile. i think the last eight years in the private sector have allowed me to see government from the outside. and i think that is a positive thing. yes, i thought about running four years ago. i was ready to lead, but i wasn't ready to run. but i look at this country today, and i look at how divided we are. i look at how politicians are always posturing and issuesing sound bites but never solving problems. what i did in new york was bring people together, an overwhelmingly democratic state. but i was able to get democrats to support the most conservative sweeping policy changes in any state in america. and when i look at washington today, we need to bring us together. we need to solve problems. we need to rebuild our military so we can stand up to radical islam. we need to get our economy growing much faster by throwing out the corrupt tax code and low, the rates. we have to end crony capitalism

in washington where the lobbyists and the powerful can get tax breaks and tax credits and the american people don't get laws in their interest. i can do that. and i can do it regardless of what the makeup of congress is. because i did it in new york state. so we need new leadership, yes. i will be that new leader. >> thank you, governor. >> from one side of the stage to the other, governor jim gilmore. you were the last person on stage to declare your candidacy. you ran for the white house once and lost. you ran for the senate one time and lost. you haven't held public office in 13 years. similar question, is it time for new blood? >> i think the times are different now. i think the times are much more serious. because of the obama-clinton policies, the united states is moving further and further into a decline. i want to reverse that decline. that's why i've entered this race. and i think i have the experience to do it. former elected prosecutor, attorney general, governor. i was elected to all of those offices.

a person who in fact has a long experience in foreign policy issues which is different from many of the other governors and perspective governors running. i was an army intelligence agent and veteran in the cold war assigned to west germany. i was the chairman of the national commission on homeland security and terrorism for the united states for five years. i was a person who has dealt extensively with these homeland security issues. i was a governor during the 9/11 attack. i understand both of these issues, how to build the economy, and doing that as a governor who built jobs and cut taxes, and also a governor who understands foreign policy issues. and that's why i entered this race. >> thank you, governor. >> all right, everybody. now to the elephant that is not in the room tonight, donald trump. let's take a look at this graphic that shows the huge amount of political chatter that he is driving on facebook right now. some of it good, probably, some of it bad. but he is dominating this

conversation. governor perry, you two have been going at it. but given the large disparity in your poll numbers, he seems to be getting the better of you. >> well, when you look at the celebrity of donald trump, then i think that says a lot about it. one thing i like to remind people is back in 2007, rudy giuliani was leading the polls for almost a year. i'll suggest part of that was his celebrity. fred thompson was the other one, a man who spends a lot of time on that screen. i've had my issues with donald trump. i talked about donald trump from the standpoint of being an individual who was using his celebrity rather than his conservatism. how can you run for the republican nomination and be for single payer health care? i mean, i ask that with all due respect. and nobody, nobody on either one of these stages has done more than i've done and the people of the state of texas to deal with

securing that border. we sent our texas ranger recon teams. we sent our parks and wildlife wardens. i deployed the national guard after i stood on the ramp in dallas, texas and looked the president of the united states in the eye and said, mr. president, if you won't secure the border, texas will. and that's exactly what we did. we need a president that doesn't just talk a game, but a president that's got real results. >> all right. i want to ask that same question, because it's true really of all of you on this stage, that like it or not donald trump is -- there's a huge disparity between the poll numbers that you have and the poll numbers that he has. given also the fact that rudy giuliani said he thought that there may be some reagan qualities to donald trump. so carly fiorina, is he getting the better of you? >> well, i don't know. i didn't get a phone call from bill clinton before i jumped in the race. did any of you get a phone call from bill clinton? i didn't. maybe it's because i hadn't given money to the foundation or donated to his wife's senate

campaign. here's the thing they would ask donald trump in all seriousness. he is the party's frontrunner right now, and good for him. i think he's tapped into an anger that people feel. they're sick of politics as usual. you know, whatever your issue, your cause, the festering problem you hoped would resolved, the political class has failed you. that's just a fact. and that's what donald trump taps into. i would also just say this. since he has changed his mind on amnesty, on health care and on abortion, i would just ask what are the principles by which he will govern. >> thank you. >> this saturday, august 8th, two days from now marks one year since the strikes began against isis in iraq and followed in syria one month later. this week a leading general in the u.s. marine corps says one year later, that fight is at a stalemate. governor jindal, give me one example how your fight against isis would be different over there. >> well, to start with, unlike president obama, i'll actually

name the enemy that we confront. we've got a president who cannot bring himself to say the words radical islamic terrorism. he loves to criticize america, apologize fours, criticize medeival christians. how can we beat even am i if our commander in chief doesn't have the honesty and moral clarity to say that problem is radical islam. they've got to condemn not generic acts of violence, the individual murderers who are committing these acts of violence. we've got a president instead who says we're going to change hearts and minds. sometimes you win a war by killing murderous, evil terrorists. we're going to take the political handcuffs off the military. we will arm and train the kurds. we will work with our sunni allies. they know we will be committed to victory. we have this failed red line with assad and it discouraged folks who want to help us on the ground. finally we'll take off the political handcuffs. we'll go to the congress. this president has gone to the congress and said give me a three-year deadline ban on ground troops. i'm going to go to the senators and say give me a plan to win. you can't send your troops into

harm's way unless you give them every opportunity to be successful. >> the senator to your right has called for 20,000 american troops in syria and iraq so far today, senator graham. i'll give this question to you. why should the american people after two wars in iraq sacrifice yet again on a third war? >> if we don't stop them over there, they are coming here just as sure as i stand here in front of you. one thing i want to be clear about tonight. if you're running for president of the united states and you don't understand that we need more american ground forces in iraq, and that america has to be part of a regional ground force that will go into syria and destroy isil in syria, then you're not ready to be commander in chief. and you're not serious about destroying isil. according to the generals they know and trust, this air campaign will not destroy isil. we need our ground force in iraq and syria, and america has to be part of that ground force. according to the fbi and the

director of national intelligence, syria's becoming a perfect platform to strike our nation. i've got a very simple strategy as your president against isil. whatever it takes, as long as it takes, to defeat them. >> senator, thank you. all right. let's get to our first commercial break. there is plenty more to discuss tonight. coming up, immigration, more on isis and homeland security as well as we continue live tonight from cleveland, ohio.

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it is debate night. welcome back to cleveland, ohio. let's get back to the questions

right now with martha. >> all right. let's talk about isis and the threat to the homeland that we have seen growing in recent months. this goes to governor pataki. 69 isis-inspired terrorists have been arrested in this country in homeland. and the fbi assures us there are likely many more to come. the president is reluctant to label these terrorists islamic extremists. but you've said that you have no problem with that label. then comes the hard part. so here's the question. how far are you willing to go to root out this problem here at home? would you put mosques, for example, potentially under surveillance? and keep in mind that conservatives are increasingly concerned in this country with religious liberty. >> martha, religious liberty doesn't include encouraging a fellow american to engage in

violent jihad and kill an american here. that is not protected free speech. that is not protected religious belief. that is like shouting fire in a crowded theater. and that is illegal. and i would do everything in our power not just to go after those who are here who we know who are here, before they can radicalize other americans to carry out attacks. and it's not just the ones they've arrested. think back to garland, texas. but for that texas police officer we could have had a mass murder. we have to shut down their internet capability. we have to shut down whether or not they're in prisons preaching or in mosques preaching. no radical islam that is allowed to engage in encouraging violence against americans, that is not protected speech. let me just add one thing about isis over there. we have got to destroy their training camps and recruiting centers. i was governor of new york on september 11th. i know we are at greater risk today than at any time since then of another attack. we have got to destroy their training camps over there before they can attack us here.

i don't agree that we're going to occupy and spend another decade or a trillion dollars. what we need to do is destroy their ability to attack us here over there. and then get out. you know, i have two sons. both served. one as a marine officer in iraq, one as an army officer in afghanistan. i do not want to see one parent or loved one worrying about getting a call in the middle of the night. i would not place one american life at risk unless it was absolutely necessary. but to destroy isis it is necessary. >> all right. this question to carly fiorina. the fbi director comey says that terrorists can thrive here at home because they go dark and they recruit behind the cyber walls that are built by american companies like google and apple. comey says this is a big problem. rand paul says that the government forcing these companies to bring down those walls would be a big privacy issue and a dangerous way to go

on this. you've been a tech leader in this country. which side are you on? >> let me say first that it is disturbing that every time one of these home-grown terrorists attacks occurs, and as your question points out they are occurring with far too great frequency, it turns out we had warning signals. it turns out we knew something was wrong. it turns out some dot wasn't connected. so the first thing we have to do is make sure that everyone and every responsible agency is attuned to all of these possibilities and symptoms. we even had warnings about the boston marathon bombers. and yet the dots weren't connected. so we need to get on a different mindset. secondly, i certainly support that we need to tear down cyber walls, not on a mass basis but on a targeted basis. but let me just say that we also need to tear down the cyber walls that china is erecting, that russia is erecting.

we need to be very well aware of the fact that china and russia are using technology to attack us just as isis is using technology to recruit those who would murder american citizens. i do not believe that we need to wholesale destroy every american citizen's privacy in order to go after those that we know are suspect or are already a problem. but yes, there is more collaboration required between private sector companies and the public sector. and specifically we know that we could have detected and repelled some of these cyber attacks if that collaboration had been permitted. a law has been sitting languishing sadly on capitol hill and has not yet been passed and it would help. >> would you tonight call for google and apple to cooperate in these investigations and let the fbi in where they need to go? >> i absolutely would call on them to slcollaborate and cooperate, yet.

>> i have not heard the bell just yet. you're all very well behaved. governor gilmore? >> i chaired homeland security committee for united states. we warned about the 9/11 attack before the 9/11 attack occurred. i was the governor during the 9/11 attack when the pentagon was struck. and i'm going to tell you this. we need to use the benefit of our law enforcement people across this country, combined with our intelligence people across this country. we need to use our technological advantages. because what we've warned of is an international guerilla movement that threatens this country. it's going to happen in this country. there are going to be further attacks. we have to be prepared to defend the american people, prepare them for a long war, stand up for the defense of this country, and stand up for the values of this country. >> thank you, governor. i've got to move on to immigration here. senator santorum, you would argue you have one of the tougher positions on illegal immigration in the entire 17 candidate field at the moment. we often talk about this issue on the abstract level in washington, d.c. but you know how it's being talked about in states like iowa and new hampshire among illegals

in our country today. 11 million plus. and some are asking, what would you say to a child, born and raised in america, who could see their family broken apart by your policy? >> my father was born in italy. shortly after he was born my grandfather immigrated to this country. under the laws of this country, he wasn't allowed to be with his father for seven years. spent the first seven years of his life in fascist italy under mussolini. not a very pleasant place to be. skid my dad after i found out about this. i said didn't you resent america for not letting you be with your father in this formative and very threatening years. you know what he said to me? america was worth the wait. we're a country of laws, bill. we're a country of laws, not of men, not of people who do whatever they want to do. i know we have a president who wants to do whatever he wants to do and take his pen and his phone and just tell everybody what he thinks is best. but the reason america is a great country, the reason is because our compassion is in our

laws. and when we live by those laws and we treat everybody equally under the law, that's when people feel good about being americans. and i put forth an immigration policy that is as strong in favor of the folks who are struggling in america the most than anybody else. it's the strongest pro-worker immigration plan. it says that after 35 million people have come here over the last 20 years, almost all of whom are unskilled workers, flattening wages, creating a lack of opportunities for unskilled workers, we're going to do something about reducing the level of immigration by 25%. we're going to be tough at the border. we're going to be tough on all of the illegal immigrants that everybody else in this field. we're going to be different. we're going to be actually out there trying to create a better life for hard-working americans. >> governor perry, try and answer this question again. what do you say to the family of illegals? are you going to break them apart? >> bill, here's the interesting position on this. americans are tired of hearing

this debate want to go to what are you going to do about illegal immigration? for 30 years this country has been baited with that. all the way back to when ronald reagan signed a piece of legislation that basically allowed for amnesty for over 4 million people and the border is still not secure. the american people are never going to trust washington, d.c. and for good reason. we hear all this discussion about well i would do this or i would do that. when the fact is, the border is still porous. until we have a president of the united states that gets up every day and goes to the oval office with the intent purpose of securing that border, and there's not anybody on either one of these stages that has the experience of dealing with this as i have for over 14 years with that 1200-mile border. we have to put the personnel on that border in the right places. you have to put the strategic fencing in place. and you have to have aviation

assets that fly all the way from tijuana to el paso to brownsville, texas. 1933 miles looking down 24/7 with the technology to be able to identify what individuals are doing. and i.d. when they are in obviously illegal activities or suspicious activities and quick response teams that come at that particular point in time. then americans will believe that washington is up to a conversation to deal with the millions of people that are here illegally but not until. if you elect me president of the united states, i will secure that southern border. >> governor, thank you. on that note, next the candidates take on the future of the u.s. economy. when we come back after this quick break. i've smoked a lot

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the domestic level. the issue that is really number one on the minds of many voters, that's the economy and jobs. >> so let's start with senator graham. senator graham, 82 million americans over the age of 20 are out of the workforce. 45 million people in this country are on food stamps. 9 million are on disability. all of these numbers have been rising sharply in recent years. there is an increasing willingness in this country to accept assistance. how do you get americans who are able to take the job instead of a handout? >> i think america's dying to work. you just need to give them a chance. to all the americans who want a better life, don't vote for hillary clinton. you're not going to get it. she's not going to repeal obama care and replace it. i will. she's not going to build the keystone pipeline. i will.

she's not going to change -- until you change the policies of barack obama we're never going to grow this economy. until you change the policies of barack obama we're never going to be safe. she represents a third term of a failed presidency. i'm fluent in clinton speak. i've been dealing with this crowd for 20 years. you know when bill clinton says it depends on what the meaning of "is" is? that means is is whatever bill wants it to mean. when hillary clinton tells you i've given you all the e-mails you need, that means she hasn't. so the people who are dying for a better america, you'd better change course. and she doesn't represent the change that we need. do we all agree that isil is not the j.v. team? if i have to monitor a mosque i'll monitor a mosque. to take wall i'll take it. if i have to send more american troops to protect us here i'll do it. she will not. she has empowered a failed agenda. she is going to empower a failed solution to an american economy dying to grow. elect me. i know the difference between

being flat broke, apparently she doesn't. and hillary clinton's world after two terms in the white house where her husband was president, she said she was flat broke. hillary, i'll show you flat broke. that's not it. >> all right. senator santorum, let's get back to the question at hand. which is whether or not americans have become too reliant on assistance or too willing to take assistance. do you believe that we need to change the culture in this country in terms of whether or not we should be encouraging people to get off of it, and take the job when it's available? when they're able and not doing that. >> a one-two punch. create better-paying jobs. that's the bottom line. we haven't. that's the reason i've said under my presidency we'll create jobs and make america the number one manufacturing country in the world. if we want to create jobs for the folks that you're talking about who are having trouble getting off government benefits, primarily because of their low skill level, there is no better way. it's worked for 100 years in america. putting people back to work in manufacturing is it.

i'm going to be introducing a plan which i call the 2020 perfect vision for america. it's a 20% flat rate tax. it will take a blow torch to the irs. it will create a manufacturing juggernaut in this country. you combine that with reforms of our welfare system. you're looking at the man who introduced and fought on the floor as a freshman senator and passed the welfare reform act of 1996. over two clinton vetoes. got 78 votes in the u.s. snats. bipartisan issue and ended a federal entitlement. never been done before or since. what we need to do is take the rest of the federal entitlements, not just welfare but food stamps and medicaid and housing programs and do the same thing we did with welfare. work requirements and time limits. that will change everything. >> all right. new question same topic goes to governor gilmore. based on your record and what we're discussing here, which is potentially cutting back some entitlements, cutting back

benefits, it's tricky business as we all know. because people will argue that that's their means to escape poverty. so they're going to look at you when you want to do that and they will call you heartless. what will you tell them? >> i'll tell them that we're going to grow the economy so that we can give people better opportunities so they don't have to rely exclusively on benefit types of programs. some do. but many americans are dying to have an opportunity to grow and to create something inside this economy. and i'm glad that i have a chance to answer this question. i've had the growth code there for about fivees. it's this specific program we're going to do a tax cut for all americans. we're going to have a three bracket tax code. 10, 15 and 25%. we're going to combine all commercial activity in business into one place in the tax code and charge it 15%, which is going to suddenly make us competitive with the rest of the world. and we're going to eliminate the death tax. with a couple of additional tweaks, we know what this will do. it will cause the economy to

grow, to explode, to create more jobs. a first of all we've got to recognize that there is a problem. that barack obama and hillary clinton have caused. that problem is too big regulations like the epa, too much new taxes on business that we have seen, and obama care. these are drags on the economy. it's a deliberate drag. i propose to reverse that and get this economy moving again. >> thank you, governor. your last topic brings us to the state of ohio. you know the saying, right? no republican wins the white house unless you win here in the buckeye state. well, here in the buckeye state the governor john kasich took the federal money for medicaid expansion under obama care. and governor jindal in louisiana, you passed on those tax dollars. why do you think governor kasich got it wrong here? >> well, this goes to the question you were just asking. look, under president obama and secretary clinton, they're working hard to change the american dream into the european nightmare. they do celebrate more dependence on the government.

give bernie sanders credit. at least he's honest enough to call himself a socialist. barack obama and hillary clinton are no better. if we were to expand medicaid for every uninsured person we would cover in louisiana we'd kick more than one person out of private insurance or remove their opportunity to get private insurance. we're going to have too much people in the cart rather than pulling the cart. that isn't free money. i know some people like to say this is free money. we pay federal taxes. we are borrowing money from china today. yesterday the president stunningly admitted this. he said, we don't have leverage with china to get a better deal on iran because we need them to lend us money to continue operating our government. the president of the united states admitting that he's weakening our government's position, our foreign policy standing, because he can't control spending in d.c. there is a better way to provide health care. the oregon study showed this. simply expanding medicaid does not improve health care outcomes. in louisiana instead we're helping people get better-paying jobs so they can provide for their own health insurance. >> so governor kasich was wrong to be clear. >> i don't think anybody should be expanding medicaid. i think it's a mistake to create

new and more expensive entitlement programs when we can't afford the ones we've got today. we've got to stop this culture of government dependency. >> i didn't hear an answer regarding governor kasich. but for now i'll go to governor pataki yes or no. >> i'll say i don't think anybody should expand medicaid. it was a mistake to expand medicaid in iowa and everywhere across the governor. >> governor pataki, is he right? >> i think he is right. i don't think you expand entitlements when so many people are dependent on government. and when the money the federal government is offering will be taken away from you after a couple of years. getting back to martha's question how we change dependency. when i ran for governor of new york, one in 11 of every man, woman and child in the state of new york was on welfare. on welfare. think about that. and people said you can't win you. can't change the culture. but i knew that good people who wanted to be part of the american dream had become trapped in dependency because the federal government and the state government had made it in

their economic interests not to take a job because the benefits if they didn't work were better. i changed that. we put in place mandatory work fare but we allowed people to keep health care. we put in place child -- >> yes, or no would you have expanded obama care in the state of new york had you been governor at that time? >> no. it should be repealed. by the way when i left there were over 1 million fewer people on welfare in new york state than when i took office. replacing dependency with opportunity. >> thank you, governor pataki in a moment here we'll talk to the candidates on an issue today on planned parenthood and also the u.s. supreme court. that's all next here in cleveland. ♪ when you're living with diabetes, steady is exciting. only glucerna has carbsteady, clinically proven to help minimize blood sugar spikes. so you stay steady ahead.

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. welcome back to cleveland, ohio. want to get back to the questions and the issues in this debate now with my coanchor martha. >> there's been a lot of discussion on facebook as you would imagine about the iran nuclear deal. let's just take a look as an opener at this one question that comes from logan christopher buoyer of st. louis, missouri. he says how will you disarm iran and keep the middle east from becoming nuclearized? let's open this discussion about iran with this question that comes to governor perry. governor perry, here's the question for you. critics of the iran deal say that it puts america on the same side as the largest state-sponsor of terrorism in the world, of hamas, of hezbollah, of the backers of those groups and of people who chant "death to america" in the streets. that this deal puts us on that side of the equation. but our traditional middle east

allies, led by saudi arabia, have also funneled support to islamic radical groups who want to kill americans. so which side do you believe we should be on? >> we need to be on the side that keeps iran from getting a nuclear weapon. that's the side we need to be on. that's the side of the bulk of the middle east. we need to have some coalitions in that part of the world to go after isis, but we also need to send a clear message. and hopefully, senator graham, i know where he's going to be on this. but we use congress and we use congress to cut this funding. one of the great challenges that we have, $150 billion is fixing to go to a country that killed our marines in lebanon, that used their weapons to kill our young men in iran. and the idea that this negotiation, i will tell you one thing. i would a whole lot rather have carly fiorina over there doing our negotiation than john kerry.

maybe we would have gotten a deal where we didn't give everything away. but the issue for us is to have a congress that stands up and says, not only no but hell no to this money going to a regime that is going to use it for terror. susan rice has said that. we need to stand up and strongly and clearly tell the ayatollah that whoever the next president of the united states is going to be, and i'll promise you if it's me the first thing i will do is tear up that agreement with iran. >> all right. i want to go to carly fiorina on this but ask you some of what i just asked to governor perry. the issue is that allies that we are with sometimes have groups within them that funnel money to terrorists as well. this is a complicated situation. are you okay with us being on their side? >> yep. sometimes it's a complicated situation. but some things are black and white. on day one in the oval office i would make two phone calls. the first one to my good friend benjamin netanyahu to reassure

him we will stand with israel. the second phone call to the president of iran. until you open every nuclear and every military facility to full, open, anytime, anywhere for real inspections, we are going to make it as difficult as possible for you to move money around the global financial system. i hope congress says no to this deal. but realistically, even if they do, the money is flowing. china and russia have never been on our side of the table. the europeans have moved on. we have to stop the money flow. and by the way, as important as those two phone calls are, they are also very important because they say this. america is back in the leadership business. and when america does not lead, the world is a dangerous and a tragic place. this is a bad deal. obama broke every rule of negotiation. yes, our allies are not perfect. but iran is at the heart of most of the evil that is going on in the middle east through proxies. >> very briefly would you help our allies in that region to get nuclear weapons if iran has

them? >> day two in the oval office i would hold a camp david summit with our arab allies, not to talk them into this lousy deal with iran but to say to them what is it you need to defeat isil? obama has presented the american people with a false choice every time. it's what i've done or not done or it's war. it is a false choice. king abdullah of jordan has been asking for bombs and material. we have not provided them. he has gone to china. the kurds have been asking us to arm them for three years. we haven't done. so the egyptians have asked us to share intelligence. we're not doing it. we have arab allies. they're not perfect. i know every one. but they need to see leadership, support and resolve from the united states of america. and we can help them defeat isis. >> next question on the u.s. supreme court. it's been 42 years, senator santorum, since roe versus wade. many consider in this country to be a case of settled law. recently the u.s. supreme court ruled on same-sex marriage. is that now settled law in america today?

>> it is not anymore than dred scott was settled law to abraham lincoln who in his first inaugural address said it won't stand. and they went ahead and passed laws in direct contravention to a rogue supreme court. this is a rogue supreme court decision, just like justice roberts said. there is no constitutional basis for the supreme court's decision. and i know something about this. one of the times the supreme court spoke they thought they were acting outside of their authority was in a partial birth abortion case. you know these planned parenthood tapes what they're showing a partial birth abortions. abortions being done where the baby's being delivered first to preserve those organs and then they crush the skull. well, the supreme court found a bill they was the author of unconstitutional. what did i do? i didn't stop. i didn't say oh, well we lost. it's the law of the land. we worked together. the house and senate under my leadership. and we passed a bill and we said, supreme court you're wrong. we're a coequal branch of the government. we have every right to be able to stand up and say what is

constitutional. we passed a bill, bipartisan support. and the supreme court, they sided with us. sometimes it just takes someone to lead and stand up to the court. >> senator, thank you. to governor gilmore. for years presidential candidates have not said they would have a litmus test for justices nominated to the supreme court. recently hillary clinton broke that precedent. she said she would apply that on the case of citizens united, which deals with campaign finance laws in america today. is it time for conservatives to impose a litmus test on abortion? >> well, as you know, i'm a former elected prosecutor, a former elected attorney general, trained at the university of virginia in constitutional law. and i don't believe it litmus tests except this. i believe we should be appointing supreme court justices who will follow the law and not try to make the law. now, the challenge we're seeing today the supreme court is being convert need some type of political body. they have to have some legal

basis and precedence for being able to follow the law instead of making the law up. and my goal is in appointing supreme court justices would be to appoint justices who would follow the law. bill, i want to say one more thing. >> no litmus test? >> not on that, no. but let me say one more thing. before my time runs out i want to get back to this issue of isis versus iran. it is iran that's the expansionist power. isil it is trying to create themselves into a new state. our job has to be to recognize the conflict between the two. i have proposed there be a middle east nato so that we can combine our allies there to stand up to iranian expansion, at the same time join together to begin to stop this isil thing before it becomes an actual state. >> thank you, governor. all right. with that we are going to take a quick break. we'll be right back with much more from cleveland. stay with us.

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96% of them are doing rain-fed agriculture. . they're all competing with each other; they're all making very low margins, making enough to survive, but not enough to get out of poverty. so kickstart designs low cost irrigation pumps enabling them to grow high value crops throughout the year so you can make a lot of money. it's all very well to have a whole lot of small innovations, but unless we can scale it up enough to where we are talking about millions of farmers, we're not going to solve their biggest challenge.

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>> we should believe in science. hillary clinton's always saying how republicans don't follow science. they're the ones not listening to the scientists today because doctors say that at 20 weeks,

that is a viable life inside the womb. at that point, it's the life that we have the right to protect and i think we should protect. so i would pass legislation. outlog abortion after 20 weeks. it is hillary, it is biden, it is the others who insist on allowing abortion well into the life a viable infant. that's wrong and it should be stopped. >> on the same topic, governor jindal carly fiorina also on the stage said that she would go so far as to shut down the government over the issue of defunding planned parenthood. would do you that? would you be willing to shut down the government whether it comes to defunding this group? >> planned parenthood had better hope that hillary clinton wins there election 'cause i guarantee under president jindal, january 2017, the department of justice and the irs and everybody else that we can send from the federal government will be going into planned parenthood. this is absolutely disgusting and revolts the conscience of the nation. abso