>> see you back here in an hour. "outnumbered" starts right now. sandra: fox news alert. the fiery faceoff, insults and interruptions fly in the vice-presidential debate. tim kaine and mike pence trading jabs over russia, immigration and their running mates but did they do enough to move the needle last night? this is "outnumbered." i'm sandra smith. here today, harris faulkner, host of "kennedy" on fox business, kennedy, fox political and legal analyst, eboni williams on the catch, today's #oneluckyguy, co-host of "america's newsroom," busy man, bill hemmer is here. he is outnumbered. >> good day, ladies. nice to see you. sandra: late night for all last night of course.

harris: you're looking spry and chipper like it never happened? >> you think. that is what i call caffeine. harris: oh, okay. sandra: we're glad you're with us. a lot to begin with, with last night's fireworks. mike pence and tim kaine going at it for 90 minutes in their one and only debate. many saying pence appeared calm and steady and kaine went on the attack against donald trump from the very beginning. >> as a candidate he started his campaign with a speech where he called mexicans rapists and criminals, and he has pursued the discredited and really outrageous lie that president obama wasn't born in the united states. and i can't imagine how governor pence can defend the insult-driven, selfish, me first style of donald trump. >> he says ours is an insult driven campaign? did you all just hear that? ours is an insult-driven campaign? to be honest with you, if donald trump said all the things you said he said, in the way you

said he said them, he still won't have a fraction of the insults that hillary clinton leveled when she said that half of our supporters were a basket of "deplorables". she said they were irredeemable. they were not america. >> very next day she said you know it? i shouldn't have said that. >> senator kaine a few minutes. >> that's right. now we're even. you can't meet the nixon standard -- >> gentleman, people at home can't understand either one of you when you speak over each other. i would please ask you to wait until the other is finished. >> just trying to keep up with the insult-driven campaign on the other side of the aisle. >> i'm saying facts about your running mate. i know you can't defend them. >> i'm happy to defend him senator. don't put words in my mouth i'm not defending him. >> you're not. sandra: immigration, terrorism, things got heated out of the gate last night. over 70 interruptions. it was fiery from the very beginning. >> i had a very unique experience last night.

i dropped my iphone at 5:30 in the morning yesterday in farmville. first time in my life i cracked i. so i was at apple store in soho watching debate on pbs.org on an imac. would i say that my feeling has not changed about this election. i felt for some time now that the movement was towards trump at end of august and through september. after debate number one it shifted toward hillary clinton. that is that, undecided slice in the middle. i think after last night, and what pence did in his rather measured tone for 90 minutes and not taking the bait or the chum in the water, if trump does better on sunday night, then he did at hofstra out on long island, perhaps that group of voters in the middle start to go back toward him. i think the election is that close. that is the way i see it. sandra: amazing change last night. did anyone win i should first ask you? >> as former debate team guru, sandra, i would like to say i

think in terms of who won the debate, i think mike pence did a better debate performance absolutely. here is what he did well. he controlled the tone of the evening. everything was about his pacing. we saw tim kaine with lots of jabbed and he was very prepared but his pacing was off. he seemed nervous and stumbling out of the starting block but that hurt him. to bill's point do i think either performance will change the needle dramatically? no. i would call them non-factors at this point. sandra: kennedy, you watched every minute. hard to watch at times. if you were monitoring social media, twitter, the conversation was all those interruptions. it was difficult to watch. we'll discuss the moderation later on in the hour. that being said, kaine came out of the blocks fiery. he was interrupting pence on many occasions. it was difficult for the viewer to understand what they were talking about. >> you would think tim kaine never debated in his life. you realize he is career politician.

he has been a mayor, a governor and now a united states senator. he had plenty of practice at this. there has been talk this political season having debates without moderators and what necessity they have really in the process. if that is the case the candidates have to be self-possessed enough to exercise a little bit of decorum with one another and i thought on that front, kaine really failed, and you need to be able to, since it is 90 minutes uninterrupted, you're not getting any messages from the crowd unless you're wearing an earpiece for lester holt. harris: my goodness. >> you have to be able to self-regulate. i don't think he did a great job of that until the very end of the debate when he came off as a match warmer candidate than he did. harris: see me with my tab litt. audience is always wondering if i'm emailing. >> you have breaking news. harris: that is what i'm doing. we're talking about mike pence, for the first time since the debate we get to hear him and he is in rockingham county. that is in harrisonburg,

virginia. let's watch. >> and serve as the next vice president of the united states of america. [cheering] i have to tell you, ed, i appreciate, i appreciate that introduction more than i can tell you, but he knows me well enough to know the introduction i prefer is a little bit shorter. i'm a christian, a conservative and a republican, in that order. [cheering] and i got to tell you, i joined this campaign in a heartbeat, because you have nominated a man for president who never quits, who never backs down. he is a fighter. he is a winner. until very recently it seemed like he was out there fighting all on his own, but now this movement is coming together. this state is coming together. we're going to elect donald trump as the next president of the united states of america. [cheering]

but it is great to be in virginia. i had a little debate last night. [cheering] [shouting] it was at longwood university and i was humbled and honored to be there. donald trump called me late last night from nevada to congratulate me on the debate. that really meant the world to me, it truly did. some people think i won. [cheering] but, i will leave that to others. you know what i can tell you from where i sat, donald trump won the debate. [cheering] donald trump's vision to make america great again won the debate! [cheering] when we take that vision to every corner of virginia and every corner of this great nation, this movement, that man, and that vision are going to win

all the way to the white house. [cheering] you know, i truly do believe donald trump embodies the american spirit. strong, freedom-loving, independent, optimistic. and willing to fight every day for what he believes in and he is going to make america great again. i promise you that. [cheering] people asked me sometimes, what is it about donald trump? i say, i'm from south of highway 40 in indiana. we speak pretty plainly down that way. [shouting] we got a hoosier in the crowd. good to see you. [laughter] i tell people, i say, what is it about that? donald trump just gets it. you with me? i mean, he is a genuine article. he is a doer in a game usually

reserved for talkers. and when donald trump does his talking doesn't go tiptoeing around the thousands of rules of political correctness the media put in the way of men and women wants to make a difference. speaks from his mind. he speaks from his heart. the american people hear him loud and clear and they're going to send that man, that message all the way to the oval office. [cheering] the funny thing is, you know the party in power seems, seems helpless to figure out our nominee. of course i'm talking about the media. [laughter] huh? you ever notice that? i mean seriously, they all keep telling each other the usual methods are going to work, right? now we got him. right now we found this thing he said. now we found this thing he tweeted. they think they have finally done him in. turn on the television next morning and donald trump is

still standing stronger than ever before and fighting for the american people. [cheering] it really is fun to watch. you know the thing about donald trump is he has never forgotten, he never forgotten the men and women who built this nation. people that work with their hands, grow our food, build our roads and bridges, tend to our sick and teach our kids. and donald trump, i promise you, will never forget the men and women who serve on the thin blue line of law enforcement all across this state and nation. [cheering] harris: mike pence before a crowd in harrison burke, virginia, down in the shenendoah valley. energized performance. calling donald trump a doer in a game usually reserved for talkers. we'll break away from that speech because while governor pence has been speaking, president obama has come out

with fema headquarters notes. he has just been in a meeting with them. he had these words to say. let's roll that. >> -- fema as well as number of other agencies. our army corps of engineers, our national guard, have just briefed me on preparations that we're making for the possibility of some serious effects from hurricane matthews. matthew could soon affect areas all across the southeast, so at my direction fema has been on the ground in florida, georgia, south carolina, and north carolina, working with state and local officials to prepare for the storm. we've already got response teams and supplies prepositioned and ready to help communities in the region. i want to emphasize to the public, this is a serious storm. it has already hit haiti with devastating effect. it is now in the process of

moving through the bahamas. because it is not going to be hitting enough land, it is going to be building strength on its way to florida. we anticipate that by tomorrow morning it will already begin to have significant effect in florida, and then, has potential to strengthen and move on up the coast during the course of the day. so, i want to make sure that everybody is paying attention to your local officials. if there is an evacuation order in your community, you need to take it seriously. we anticipate that not only is there still a chance that the core of the storm strikes florida and some of the states further north, but, even if you don't get the full force of of

the hurricane, we're seeing tropical storm force winds and devastating storm surge. that could have a devastating effect. everybody needs to pay the attention and follow the instructions of your local officials. if you get an evacuation order, just remember that you can always rebuild. you can always repair property. you can not restore a life that is lost. we want to make sure that we minimize any possible loss of life or risk to people in these areas. i also want to make sure that we say thanks to the folks at the national weather service and the fema team for the outstanding work that they're doing here. craig just, in case folks aren't aware, comes from florida. is intimately familiar with the dangers of hurricanes and just so happens that he has got family in areas that could be affected by this storm.

this is personal for him. you know he is going to be working around the clock to make sure we're preventing any potential loss of life and trying to minimize as much as possible the impacts of this storm. this will be a serious storm. we want everybody to take it seriously as well. even as we prepare for the hurricane here at home, i want us to keep in mind that haiti, one. poorest countries in the world, already suffering from a range of previous disasters has been hit really hard by this storm and we anticipate they will need substantial help. there may be similar needs in places like the bahamas. i would ask people willing to contribute and willing to help, visit the center for international disaster information. the website is cidi.org.

cidi.org. you can find out how you can help make life a little bit easier for people who didn't have a lot to begin with and now are really getting hammered by this storm. and, last point for everybody in the potentially-after -- affected states, even as you're waiting to get instructions from your local officials, now is the time for you to prepare in the event that you have to evacuate. even if you don't have to evacuate, there is not an evacuation order, it still makes sense for to you figure out what kind of plan do you have, what kind of preparations and supplies do you have? if you need help trying to figure that out, go to ready -- ready.gov. that will give you clear instructions to make sure you're securing your property and keeping the family safe which is priority for all of us.

so this is something to take seriously. we hope for the best but we want to prepare for the worst. and i would urge everybody in the affected states of florida, georgia, south carolina, north carolina, to pay very close attention to the local officials and broadcasts that coming through over the next several hours. all right? thank you very much, everybody. harris: president obama at fema headquarters. when you see a president in this roll because they have seen the rain amounts and what the storm can do, hurricane matthew, and he wants to get out in front of it hitting the united states and make sure everybody is paying attention to potentially what is coming. it's a slow-moving storm. now it spread up. check in with chief meteorologist rick reichmuth in the fox weather center. the behavior of the storm is changing? >> not necessarily changing. in fact it has been pretty consistent with this northward movement. moved over haiti and cuba. got disrupted a little bit. now it is back over the warm

waters in the bahamas getting its act together a little bit looks like on the satellite representation. weakened a little bit to category 3 storm because of the land interaction. there isn't anything that should cause further weakening. all the conditions are ripe for more strengthening as it moves over the bahama. because of that hurricane warnings in the bahamas, across the florida coast here. sometime late tomorrow into friday morning, expecting to see hurricane conditions on the florida coast. this is a projection, model projection what we expect to see happen. you get the idea. these are winds that are over 90 miles per hour. right here is the florida coast. you get the idea if this goes a little bit farther east we're spared a brunt off florida coastline. a few miles to the west, completely different story and much more destructive storm along the florida coastline. we expect to see it hug the coastline or continue to move parallel to florida during the, tomorrow into friday and

saturday. and then cut up right here along the coast of the carolinas. weakening likely. conditions not as favorable as you get up here. yesterday, harris, we were thinking this storm will get pulled by a trough moving by and it would suck the storm up toward the north and impact areas of the northeast. looks to this point the trough moving to the north will miss this. that makes this storm potentially linger back here across parts of the southeast, maybe for another week or so. not going to say some. things that could happen after this, but could hang out here and cause more problems. nonetheless, florida, as early as tomorrow afternoon, and evening, potentially hurricane conditions. not much time to prepare. harris. harris: rick, thank you very much. we will get back to talking about reaction to the vice-presidential debate and some of the analysis. it was kind of an interruption fest. we'll get into all of it as we come back here on "outnumbered." stay close. you don't let anything keep you sidelined.

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sandra: welcome back to "outnumbered." fireworks for sure last night. they spent most of the night defending their running mates from attacks. some issues that came up,

donald trump's taxes, hillary clinton emails and her family foundation. >> the clinton foundation accepted foreign contributions from foreign governments and foreign donors while she was secretary of state. >> i can weigh in. i get to weigh in on now. >> senator, please. you have the opportunity. >> governor pence doesn't think the world is going so well. he is going to say it is everybody's fault. >> do you? >> let me tell you this, when hillary clinton became secretary of state, governor pence you know usama bin laden was alive? why won't he release his tax returns. >> we're answering question about the business thing. >> i do want to come back -- >> his tax returns showed he went through a very difficult time, but he used the tax code just the way it is supposed to be used. he did it brilliantly. >> how do you know that? you haven't seen -- >> because he created a business that is worth billions of dollars. we can put cybersecurity first if we make sure the next secretary of state. >> the investigation concluded not one reasonable prosecutor

would take any additional step. you don't get to decide the rights and wrongs of this. we have a justice system that does that. sandra: bill hemmer, both candidates, spend spent a lot of time on the defensive last night. how do you feel they defended their running mates? >> marginal i think. i felt the intimacy of the room was not understood as well as it should have been. i think they had 400 people max in a converted gymnasium. last week at hofstra they had 1200 inside. that is really small. the table, they're sitting like three of us are sitting right now. i thought pence kind of understood that and kaine to a lesser degree. when it came to defending clinton or trump, eh, i gave them both a c. sandra: really? >> here is what i felt. i felt both were on offense most of the night. sandra: okay. >> deflect. send the conversation in a different direction. that was my sense.

sandra: for example, trump's tax, pence would pivot to the economy and that donald trump is a job creator. >> how about, i mean pence was determined to bring up the clinton foundation. sandra: yes. >> it was not a question but he was determined to get it in. sandra: which any cap date can do. you can pivot not answering to one question to something else. they did a lot of that. >> i heard a little bit of chatter that donald trump was not entirely pleased with pence's performance. i would be surprised by that because i think mike pence did a lot of what donald trump has to do in the second debate. and that is, when you are given one topic and politicians are famous for this, i guess it is not surprising to see two career politicians engage in this, you move the topic exactly where you want to. you don't necessarily answer the question you were asked. donald trump one of the criticisms leveled at him -- sandra: he didn't do that. >> no, he didn't. he took the bait every single time. what trump can do is what pence did.

instead of responding directly to questions or allegations he needs to move things, shift them back and put a burden on hillary clinton. sandra: donald trump if he is disappointed in pence's performance last night he is not making that public because 13 hours ago -- kennedy: i heard things from sources and people. >> things in my head. kennedy: they're not in my head. sandra: 13 hours ago, mike pence won big. we should all be proud. eboni, said the constant interruptions by tim kaine should not have been allowed. mike pence won big. harris: exclamation. >> talk about the interruptions. you're right, that was pretty much on top of mind of everybody. these guys were going at it, certainly tim kaine was interrupting i believe i saw 70 times throughout the 90 minutes. here is where the moderator, we'll talk about elaine later. she has a choice, act as referee and step in, hold it, guys? or does these two represent who america want them to be, viewers

make a choice about that behavior? i think that is what we saw. i think a lot of people were put off by that aspect of tim kaine's performance. to donald trump if he was indeed disappointed maybe he was sad that pence kind of upstaged him a bit in the debate performance. >> pence got a phone call. kaine got an email. like getting a text message, right? harris: i want to speak to interruptions on point here. there were times when pence was interrupted and he did not interrupt back. social security, kaine interrupted twice. this is per cbs news. they diagram their own debate obviously and pence zero. you had times two of them really, really won more than the other, on social issues, kaine interrupted seven times, three for pence. nine for kaine, six for pence on terrorism. sandra: who had better strategy? harris: you could make the argument you feel the need to step in when you think you might lose that point. it is human nature to do this i

tell you, i saw another candidate on that stage last night. i sue pence 2020. he did himself favors. kennedy: that is what they're doing. this is the first opportunity to hold a national audience captive. if either of these men lose, you better believe when one of them loses they will run in 2020 for certain. i think pence actually had a better command of who the audience was and what he was trying to do, his broader -- sandra: physical way that he delivered last night. harris: much more comfortable. sandra: he turn and spoke comfortably to the camera. tim kaine spent a lot of time talking to the audience in front of him. harris: he also moderated somewhat of a very right speech we heard him give previously, mike pence. so he -- >> former broadcaster he is. tv and radio. sandra: tim kaine was armed with arsenal of zingers one after the other. why some say they actually fell flat. we'll be right back. >> fundamental choice for the

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♪ . kennedy: greatest music you will hear all day. tim kaine came to the vice-presidential debate armed with a arsenal of one-line, so many, some critics say he sounded overrehearsed. kaine attacking republican ticket on everything from jobs to women to the trump organization but mike pence had comeback lines of his own. watch this. >> you are donald trump's apprentice. do you want a you're hired president in hillary clinton or you're fired president in donald trump. >> first let me say i appreciated you'rehired, you're fired thing, senator. you used that a whole lot. you are using a lot of predone lines. >> donald trump can't start a twitter war with miss universe without shooting himself in the foot.

he loves tick r dictators. he has a personal mount rushmore. vladmir putin, kim jong-un, muammar qaddafi. >> come on? did you work on that one a long time? that had a lot of creative lines in it. >> i will see if you can defend any of it. kennedy: yes with my boomerang eyebrow. this is the peril. >> no personal insults my dear. kennedy: look at the left eyebrow. rip it off my face and throw it at you coming right back to me. this is peril of overpreparation. the problem if you're so dead set using lines you practiced and practiced and practice, if you don't have good timing it sort of falls flat. >> governor walker was his prep. kennedy: mike pence's. >> correct for mike pence. he was on "america's newsroom" this morning at 9:00 a.m. eastern time. harris: when does the show air? >> 9:00 eastern time. we'll take all the viewers.

he said when he was prepping pence he had a number of lines he was given repeatedly. he thinks kaine used almost word for word. when it came time for the whole trump preparation they were ready for that as well. that was their expectation of the. kennedy: be boneey, -- eboni, is that something hillary clinton can run into? she does the same thing they have canned lines. they all do. use them on the trump and try to wow the crowds with big debates with rivetted audiences? >> everybody kind of does it, kennedy, you can decide to use it or not use it. the way tim kaine chose to use all of them, many over and over again, they came off as corny. they were inauthentic in the moment. you saw pence not giving any slack to it, deflecting every turn. dismissive, super, p.e.t. at this about his dismissiveness he looked over it.

i think a lot of americans felt over it by that point. sandra: not only looked disinterested, tim kaine, you're hired president, you're fired. the economy is number one concern of the american voter right now. you don't have anything to say about the economy and through a jab at mike pence? thick this more seriously with millions of americans still out of work and job participation rate, lowest we've seen in decades. >> pence got to look like the adult in the room at that moment. come on, dude. >> that would have been a good line. come on, dude? what are we talking about here. harris: he did say come on a couple times. kennedy: he was exasperated, that was the problem. kaine led himself into his own trap. when you have so many lines like that so easy to dismiss them and put focus back on the corn ball lines. sandra: stumble on them. kennedy: deflect to answer the question. harris: you may have to interrupt north of 65 times to

get them in because it is not a natural flow of the conversation. i've done a lot of motivational speaking. try to start off with a joke with you can which is fine unless the moment doesn't call for it. >> everybody is not funny, right? that is what other people need to understand. hillary gets in trouble when she tries to be funny sometimes in a way not natural to her. harris: to your point, and what i was going to say about what i thought tim kaine did last night was he sounded like he had been given the rules of do not sound any different than the top of the ticket. because who do we know has been criticized for being stoic and scripted? hillary clinton. you saw difference between donald trump and mike pence. you could see a divergence between hillary clinton and tim kaine. i'm done. >> okay. you can change the format for this debate too and get around a lot of these interruptions.

kennedy: ken bearer of bad interruptions, more claims of mainstream media bias. they have been wrapped like a presence, bill hemmer. was last night's moderator much harder on gop nominee mike pence more so -- that is what critics are saying. stick around for that discussion. "outnumbered" continues. (music playing) ♪ push it real good... (announcer vo) or you can take a joyride. bye bye, errands, we sing out loud here. siriusxm. road happy.

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the ca(announcer vo)dit card you can go straight home.a. (howard stern on radio) welcome to show business. (announcer vo) or you can hear the rest of howard. bababooey! (announcer vo) sorry, confused neighbors, howard's on. siriusxm. road happy. ♪ >> growing questions about the mainstream media's bias after last night's debate. critics say moderator elaine quijano was much tougher on mike pence than tim kaine. she peppered the republican with tough questions and pointed out he didn't answer some of them and cut him off on questions about hillary clinton email scandal. >> governor pence, let me ask you, that you said donald trump is thoughtful, compassionate and steady. yet 67% of voters feel he is risky choice and 65% feel he does not have the right kind of

temperament to be president. why do so many americans think mr. trump is simply too erratic. governor with all due respect, the question whether seems fair to you, when mr. trump brilliantly used laws to evade as much taxes. governor, how will undocumented immigrants leave? will be they be force iably removed? >> elaine -- >> home group -- >> but you asked the trustworthy question at very beginning. >> governor your two minutes are up. >> they're looking at the pay-to-play politics she operated with the clinton foundation through the private server. >> governor, please, your two minutes are up. >> full disclosure. i worked with elaine at cbs news? >> is she nice? she smells like roses. >> i knew her to be fine journalist. perception is reality. i want to go to you first, bill. do you think she came off one-sided? >> i think it's a very difficult job a.

b, if the format is, you get two minutes and you get two minutes. then you discuss, that's what you're going to get. >> sure. >> perhaps the format could have been different. i also think, she tried to get in there and they were not giving her the chance at all. i thought the same was true for lester holt last week at hofstra. if you're in the room as i was last week, he tried to interject a lot in the first 35, 40 minutes. >> gave up. >> clinton and trump were not giving him corner to do that. >> at that point as moderator do you fall back and let them do their thing? harris: let them breathe. sandra knows. >> look, i don't think it is an easy job. i didn't feel there was necessarily a level of unfairness of one side toward the other. but voters make up your own mind. sandra: to me, former colleague, did appear to be nervous from the get-go. she seem uneasy. whether or not the bias was intentional or not, i don't know, i will leave that up for

everybody else to judge. i think it is interesting what the trump camp is doing in the wake of the moderation, they're accusing tim kaine of sexism for him, you know, talking right over the moderator who happened to be a woman. i don't know if that is strong move to make that seems to be what they're doing because tim kaine, he was not respectful of the moderator. pence at times as well. >> let's talk about it. i figured that the sexism claim would come from one side or the other when both men decided they were clearly going to do their thing. at that point should elaine be more forceful, listen -- harris: take gender out of it. the job that really needed to be done last night was to show the american public, the american voter what these men know and what their policies would be like and how much are alike or different they are from the top of the tickets. that is really genderless, if you will. sandra: campaign saying it. harris: right. i will say this, it was an intimate setting as you said, 400 people. it was an opportunity with two people at a table to have a

conversation and so really her job could have just been to keep them from talking over each other. clearly one getting more time than the other at different points. i don't know if there was a flock. i am a big fan of the bell. something to prod them. kennedy: forgot the rules of her own game. >> kennedy, some people are really critiquing elaine, that was much tougher on pence. democrats are actually upset with elaine because they think she did not question mike pence on the most controversial thing of his candidacy, which of course is the indiana law and effects possibly discriminating against the lgbt community. is there a win to this thing if you're a moderator. kennedy: no, it is not, it is incredibly tough job that these two will tell you. there is so much on the line and you have such an acrimonious election. you have already had results of one debate and two candidates, this is their only opportunity, 70 million potential eyeballs on this night and i think, you

can't win for losing. if you're too heavy-handed people will say you insert yourself too much. if you lay back and let the candidates do what they naturally want to do, you get accused of letting them walk all over you. so you know, in that regard, but having said that, you still need to be strong. you need to be like caesar the "dog whisper." >> can't please all the people all the time. mike pence will probably have more to say about that you see him tonight on "hannity" right here on fox news channel. plus we're getting ready for round two. hillary clinton and donald trump face off in town hall-style debate in four days. what to expect from the presidential candidates when they go head-to-head the second time around. ♪

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♪ harris: the second presidential debate is this coming sunday. hillary clinton's campaign manager says they are expecting to face a more prepared donald trump. critics panned trump's first performance as you know saying he failed to bring up a lot of his opponent's vulnerabilities.

"wall street journal" says he can learn from his running mate who the paper credits with succeeding defending his message last night. trump's campaign manager says he will be tough and fair. that trump is constantly preparing. lessons learned what were they and differences you expect to see? >> "wall street journal." trump's best debate they called it. interesting piece, read it, see whether you agree or not. i felt in many ways that this sort of sets the table for trump for sunday. and he has a golden opportunity to build on this, and we'll see, we'll see how he does. harris: does he have the personality to go with the golden opportunity? he will come out fighting. he already said he want to hit her hard. how do you mesh that with also turning the topic? >> he has to be careful, harris, this is town hall-style. this is not moderator with traditional format. it will be difficult to do

tit-for-tat, bringing up every single controversy of hillary without being off-putting or seeming like he is too aggressive. it will be very challenging. i also think trump will do well in the town hall format beca he likes being around people. he is a people kind ever candidate. i think that fueled his success. >> he did not show that tendency at all the first debate in long island. >> no. i think that format -- >> i would suggest, when she dropped his name three times in the first eight to ten minutes, that got right under his skin. >> yeah. >> he did not let go of it. >> he can not take -- kennedy: he has to use the warmth to his advantage. that is one of the things that people respond to. you know, even when he says something or does something that eclipses the news, when he goes back to that personable, affable side of himself he does much better and if he has got the preparation, if he takes the time, critical time to really figure out what the issues are

that will get under her skin. sandra: talk about where the bar is. going into the first debate, hillary and donald, the bar was set high for hillary clinton as seasoned politician and pretty low for donald trump. now the bar is even higher for hillary clinton, lower for donald trump. so if he does just even a little bit better than the first debate it may be seen as a win, but, as a golf analogy to bill hemmer, golfer on the couch, you practice your golf swing. you prep a lot, right. still when you step into that tee box on the first hole on beautiful saturday morning, you can very easily fall into the old ways and forget everything you learned. >> doesn't make that much of a difference however. russian cybersecurity in debate number one. the hall was this big to drive a truck through. >> amen. >> he dropped the ball. harris: i actually don't agree in terms where the bars are though. i think it is higher for him. he doesn't have the excuse it is my first time now. he doesn't have the excuse if i did what i did in the primary it will work.

it didn't work with the big, bold personality. you're left short going personal in the end. you have a twitter war with former beauty pageant queen. i think the bar is higher for him to do what his vice-presidential -- kennedy: very quickly, if he can actually do that, if he can exceed the bar, if he can dot fosbury flop on sunday night in st. louis on debate number two, he can move the needle thanks to the foundation pence laid. if he falls flat, too much of a contrast between his performance and pence's performance -- harris: i still think the bar is high for her. what do you think? looking at numbers where they are is there big enough gap? sandra: look at hillary clinton camp is saying. they expect him to be better prepared for the next debate. they are trying to set the bar higher for donald trump. i think they are admitting it was lowered. he was widely seen as the loser

of first debate, right? anytime you go in the loser you're the underdog. >> interesting point and well-taken. >> does trump's bar move because pence did so good? does that make it harder for trump to shine now? sandra: i don't know. kennedy: we'll leave you with that thought. harris: think about it for a minute. then we'll come right back. picking up for kyle. here you go. you wouldn't put up with part of a pizza. um. something wrong? so when it comes to pain relievers, why put up with just part of a day? you want the whole thing? yes, yes! live whole. not part. aleve.

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sandra: many thanks to mr. bill hemmer. always good to have you sir. harris: there's more. >> what?

sandra: yes there is indeed. stay right here for "outnumbered overtime." it is on the web. he doesn't know it yet, but find us on facebook.com/out numbered fnc. we're back on tv tomorrow. thanks for joining us. "happening now" starts right now. froochlt and that is within the margin of error. we are covering all of the news "happening now". >> i can't imagine how governor pence can defend the insult driven donald trump. >> senator you and hillary clinton know a lot about a insult driven campaign. it is really remarkable. >> and