wrong number. the 17-year-old responded and yesterday ate dinner with the family, jamal saying there are plans in the works for den. to meet his family. leland: all right. "outnumbered" is next. we'll see you in an hour. >> this is a fox news alert on new additions to president-elect donald trump's white house team as more staff announcements could come at any time. we'll keep you posted on that. this is "outnumbered." i'm kennedy, and here today is dagen mcdowell of the fox business network, julie roginsky, and national review reporter katherine timpf on the couch, and the luckiest guy of all, the political editor for townhall.com, it's guy benson, and he's outnumbered. welcome back to the couch. >> i am so thankful, one might say, to be here. kennedy: are you full of turkey and ready to wrestle -- >> i am so happy i fit into this

suit today, to be honest. dagen: i had to use preparation h on my eye this morning because it was swollen shut from the sodium. >> thanks for that tip. dagen: it works, guy. [laughter] kennedy: all right. president-elect trump spending thanksgiving working from florida, making new staffing picks. the newest name, betsy devos, a top republican donor and a school choice activist. mr. trump also expected to nominate billionaire wilbur ross as commerce secretary and cubs' co-owner tom rickets as deputy commerce secretary. as an internal battle appears to be intensifying over whether rudy giuliani or mitt romney should be secretary of state. kellyanne conway even weighing in. and now we've got peter doocy live from palm beach, florida. what's going on there, or peter? >> reporter: well, we know now, kennedy, that the big concern about mitt romney among some ground-level trump support

us is they just aren't sure if his attitude toward the president-elect is going to do a complete 180 and go from extreme trump critic to cooperative cabinet member. you just mentioned the other contender, thought to be toward the top of mr. trump's list to be the secretary of state, is rudy giuliani. a new york times report today says that giuliani is frustrated he's not the front-runner, and this morning on a conference call transition officials tried to downplay any drama. they stress all the palace intrigue surrounding the secretary of state pick overblown, but things were really intriguing when adviser kellyanne conway -- who wields a lot of behind the scenes influence, whos has made a point to call out republicans who never embraced trump the candidate -- wrote that she's been getting a lot of notes from people concerned about romney. and then she added, quote: kissinger and schultz as secretaries of state flew around

the world less, counseled potus at home more and were loyal. good checklist. also doing her best to highlight the diversity with two women, governor nikki haley to be u.n. ambassador, and philanthropist betsy devos for education secretary. we're told not to expect any more cabinet-level announcements today here at mar-a-lago, but we will learn two important staff members, so stay tuned for that. kennedy: peter, thanks so much. keep us updated if anything happens there in beautiful palm beach, florida. guy, i will go to you. some interesting picks. betsy devos, of course, secretary of education nominee, and there were some other names thrown about like michelle rhee and eva moskowitz, but let's talk about secretary of state, because this is the big one. we're getting a lot of names, a lot of trickle, a lot of conversation. what do you think is gown to happen with the mitt -- going to happen with the mitt question? >> your guess is as good as mine.

i'm an admirer of governor romney, he's a statesman, very capable and would be calm and cool on the world stage. i can understand why team trump, at least elements within that camp, may be concerned about mitt because he was not just a trump critic, he was perhaps trump critic in chief on the right and was really going after him very hard throughout the entire primary process and really throughout the general election as well. and he ended up voting third party himself. kennedy: yeah. >> whether or not trump holds that against him remains to be seen. a lot of people talk about the importance of loyalty to trump. if that is the prime factor here, then you would imagine it would be someone like rudy. if trump can get over that and bring mitt into the fold, we're talking about a changed ball game. although this talk about how mitt might have to give an apology to trump in order to get this, i mean, that's absurd -- kennedy: this is the thing i will say about that, kat, he made this public speech, maybe

that's the case that romney fans could make for having him be our chief tip lo mat, is -- diplomat, perhaps now he knows how to talk tough and get things done. katherine: it is a little strange given that romney wasn't just somebody who when he was asked about trump, responded negatively. he filled up his schedule with times to talk negatively about trump. but at the same time, i really think romney would better balance out trump than giuliani. i feel that would be a little bit too intense for everybody involved. kennedy: yeah. he is a big personality, obviously. and when his presidential hopes were dashed in florida some years ago, now, julie, you have surveyed the landscape here in the northeast -- julie: i have. kennedy: if giuliani is the most loyal person that donald trump has next to him, if he has been with him through thick and thinker through every scandal and misstep, why hasn't he already been named secretary of state? julie: maybe because he's totally unqualified, maybe

because aside from being mayor of new york -- ken very international city. julie: so is las vegas. doesn't mean the may or yo of vegas gets to be secretary of state. giuliani said i'm qualified because i've traveled around a lot. yeah, doing business foreign governments -- dagen: 10% of his business was with foreign government. julie: fine, doesn't matter. we don't know that because he hasn't released his tax returns, much like everybody else, including our president-elect. dagen: you have to go on what he says at point, 10%, and he's never lobbied the u.s. government -- julie: let me tell you something, you don't have to be a registered lobbyist to pull strings and pull connections -- dagen: oh, now you've got, now liberals have religion on that? [laughter] julie: dagen, you want to drain the swamp? start with rudy giuliani. i'm not the one appointing super pac billionaires to high profile positions. that's not me. that's the person who wanted to drain the swamp.

kennedy: you could also argue that mitt romney is -- dagen: you've got a billionaire or who's an heiress who's running the commerce department now and a billionaire who earned his money, wilbur ross, who's going to be running the commerce department under donald trump. i do think the issue -- i will add that, that the issue with rudy giuliani has to do with some of the business that he conducted you should giuliani partners -- under giuliani partners. but what i love about this whole affair is that you have individuals, seasoned, experienced, people openly campaigning for these jobs. you've got rudy giuliani who wants it and is willing to talk about it. he talked to "the wall street journal" more than once. and i -- and one thing that newt gingrich and governor mike huckabee have sounded about mitt romney is this is a guy who ran for president twice, and he wanted the top job. is he going to be representing donald trump as the secretary of state, or is he going to be acting like he won the election? kennedy: i think you could argue that mitt romney is a patriotic

person and that he would be representing the country, and i think there are a lot of people who are very comfortable with the idea of mitt romney as secretary of state. katherine: people that are uncomfortable with giuliani -- dagen: never, ever underestimate the size of someone's ego and how it can get in the way of conducting business whether it's in an office or whether it's in the private -- katherine: everyone in politics has an ego, or else you wouldn't do it. kennedy: and also, if he had such a big ego, he would have run independently. if he really thought he could save this country as president, he would have run. dagen: unless he cares more about saving his money and knowing it's a complete waste. julie: let me say this about romney versus rudy. rudy we know, he doesn't do a lot of business foreign governments, according to him. he does do business people very close to foreign governments, a lot of wiz -- business russian companies. it doesn't mean he wasn't paid by somebody who's at the mercy of the russian government.

the reason i bring this up is michael flynn does also have a relationship with russia today, propaganda -- kennedy: so does larry king. julie: luckily for us, he's not going into the administration. i say this, what's interesting for donald trump who i think has been pacifying putin tremendously over the course of the last year, year and a half to appoint somebody like mitt romney would send an interesting message. whether he could appoint somebody who has said he thinks russia is the largest gee proyo political -- geopolitical threat facing the world -- kennedy: i want to ask guy about this because the russia question is huge right now. the obama administration has talked about north korea being the biggest threat, but how important is it to have a strong secretary of state who understands the threat that russia poses like a john bolton, like a mitt romney or, you know, do you want to have someone who is more of a businessman like donald trump who is going to maybe work together with russia

and more of a partnership? >> well, i think you want someone as america's top diplomat who looks at our friends, adversaries and enemies with clear eyes morally. and i think that -- i'm not going to sit here and judge who can and cannot do that. i think mitt romney clearly vis-a-vis russia did and was savaged for it by the left four years ago. again, he and trump don't see eye to eye necessarily on russian issues. so one thing i've heard a lot is romney may be the front-runner for secretary of state. if there are people belly aching about that, loyalists like huckabee, like newt -- dagen: publicly. shockingly so. >> correct. but if the trump team decides, all right, we want mitt somewhere but maybe not as secretary of state because it's such a high profile, high power position, this is my hobby horse. i would love to see mitt romney at the v.a. he fixes broken things -- dagen: look what he did with the olympics.

he came in, it was almost a $400 million deficit, and he did an audit, and he turned it around -- >> and our veterans dea lot better than they're getting -- deserve a lot better than they're getting. craig our veterans do and our kids do, betsy devos, she's going to bust up the political cartel that is the department of education -- katherine: yeah. and all the teachers unions getting this upset -- kennedy: that's absolutely right, kat. that is the best glimmer of hope -- dagen: they're outraged. beholden to the unions and to liberals. kennedy: and she said she's worked for organizations that have supported common core, she personally does not. that's going to make a lot of parents happy, and having choice can only improver education in this country. -- improve education in this country. much remains to be seen with this cabinet as it's forming. and guess what a new survey shows? american consumers are the most hopeful they've been in a decade. that's great news for people shopping today and selling stuff

too. this is the dow approaching yet another record high. so is president-elect trump's win behind this renewed optimism? plus, mr. trump's team firing back as liberal groups push for recounts in at least three states. will their efforts succeed, or is this more sour grapes after losing the election? so much to discuss on this black friday. ♪ ♪ there's only one egg that just tastes better. fresher. more flavorful. delicious. only one egg with better nutrition- like more vitamins d, e, and omega 3s. and 25% less saturated fat. only one egg good enough for my family. because why have ordinary when you can have the best. eggland's best. the only egg that gives you so much more: better taste. better nutrition. better eggs.

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dagen: this fox news alert, with less than an hour left until the closing bell on wall street -- it's a shortened trading day, by the way -- a live look at the dow hitting new all-time highs today on this short trading day. also other broad market gauges. the dow is up more than 7% since election day, closing bo 19,000 for the first -- above 19,000 for the first time earlier week. we got a consumer optimism survey rated at nearly 94 compared to just above 87 back in october. that university of michigan survey also finding americans are the most hopeful that they've been in more than a decade. more than a third of households say they expect their personal finances to improve next year. kennedy, we talk about this stuff on the fox business network all the time. it's a trump rally, like it or

not. i know that a lot of people -- democrats are still crying over hillary losing, but the russell 2000, the small cap index through wednesday, is up more than 12% since donald trump was elected. kennedy: yeah. you've got the more major indexes -- four major indexes all showing massive gains and record highs. and it's interesting, because gallup did a survey of consumer confidence and finds people are confident across the board. it's not just republicans who are confident that they've got someone in office who's going to make this shift and we're going to see a change in power, a change in party power, it's people across the board. and be it's nice to see, because it feels like for so many years, since 2008, we've been reporting very glum news this time of year. and, you know, sales have just not been as high as you would hope, especially for some of these small retailers. this year there's going to be phenomenal online numbers, and black monday appears to be -- it's going to have the biggest shopping day online in the history of the interweb.

katherine: well, peek who didn't support -- people who didn't support trump, they thought he was a bad guy, etc., etc. but you don't have to necessarily think someone's a good guy to have faith that he might be able to do good things for the economy. so it makes sense. dagen: guy, this rally is based on the hope that tax reform happens both on the individual side and on the corporate side. that there is a big rollback in regulations. the tax cuts and the rollback in regulations, they flow right to a business' bottom line. so this is not, this is not fantasy land, if you will, in terms of the buying that's going on. and again, it's a change in what we've seen over the last eight years. >> yeah. and i think part of it also is this awful election is finally behind us. there's a sigh of relief from a lot of people. and remember when president obama won, there were really good days on wall street as well. that was a change election, this was a change election. people were unhappy with the status quo even though, look, there were some positive developments in the economy over the last eight years.

some of them were really sluggish, and we can talk about the obama recovery being really, really weak, but it was still a row coifer. now there's a -- recovery. now there's a hope among a lot of people saying, all right, whether we like the guy or not, we weren't happy with the trajectory of the country, it is going to change, and now we're starting to feel a little bit better. and the democrats will say, oh, trump will have an opportunity to build on the progress -- kennedy: yeah. we set you up for this. >> right. whereas republicans will say we're feeling better, finally a guy who believes in us -- dagen: i love the irony of congresswoman maxine waters calling the stock market rally appalling -- [laughter] when the market was hitting record, julie, under president obama, and the democrats loved that. julie: i'm thrilled the market's hitting records. i just hope it pays dividends not just for shareholders, but people in ohio and pennsylvania and michigan who voted for donald trump who are in manufacturing and expect the jobs to come back, who expect

him to keep carrier here and not send it to mexico, who expect him to make america great again. look, the market rally is great for people, and i know you've pointed out the fact that a lot of people have their portfolios invested -- kennedy: 401(k)s -- julie: which is fantastic. but often times, we've seen this certainly during the obama recovery, what you see in the market does not necessarily get reflected down to working people or the same people that voted for trump. and so i hope sincerely that those people derive some benefit from this -- kennedy: yeah. it's not the only indicator, and we saw that with obama. when the stock market was doing well, and it seemed like jobs, all the jobs numbers were heading in the right direction, but these were part-time jobs, you know? these were not full, robust, full-time jobs -- dagen: and wages were stagnant for a large part of the last eight years. kennedy: and really absolutelyish gdp growth. so if you can combine this continued market rally, and there are economists who say it's really at the top of the arc, unfortunately.

and, you know, you never know. i moon, that's the kind -- i mean, that's the kind of prognostication you never know, but hopefully we will see the economy improve no matter who's president. >> can i just say very briefly, i also hate this idea of attributing all the good and all the bad in the economy to one person. on either side. kennedy: yes. >> and both parties do this. the president, of course, sets the tone, he sets a lot of policy, it's very important. but i think we go a little bit overboard saying this is all, this is all trump or -- julie: guy, you're in luck because you guys have everything now. you've got the house, the senate, the white house, you're about to get the court -- >> i know, it's great. julie: he's going to influence the fed so, hey, pottery barn rule, you break it, you own it. you own it now, it's all on you -- kennedy: is that giuliani's policing philosophy? julie: i believe that was colin powell's invasion of iraq philosophy, but i'm going to attribute it to the republicans -- >> hey, now it's the

republicans' turn. dagen: the election of the republicans, senate, house and to the presidency, says that we think that companies and individuals make better decisions with their money than nancy pelosi and chuck schumer. and anybody in -- kennedy: amen. dagen: -- washington. if you buy a stock, you have an ownership stake in that great american corporation. when you buy a treasury bond, you are loaning money to those bags in washington -- [laughter] and giving it to bureaucrats to spend on your behalf. you're loaning money to uncle sam -- kennedy: yep. amen. repeal dodd-frank and the fed and really let the economy -- [laughter] dagen: says the libertarian! kennedy: team trump slamming efforts by liberals to seek a recount in three key states that the president-elect won. green party candidate jill stein has raised nearly $5 million. why couldn't she do that for her presidential run? that's just for a recount in michigan, wisconsin and pennsylvania. the effort coming after reports

of the possibility of hacking on electronic voting machines in those states, but trump's senior adviser kellyanne conway tweeting, quote: look who can't accept the election results with a link to an article about hillary clinton supporters calling for an audit. i think this is very clever, that hillary clinton and her minions are getting, you know, this poor green party candidate who was ignored by the mainstream media, who was maligned by so many operatives of hillary clinton, and now they're getting jill stein to do their dirty work. julie: first of all, i spoke with some hillary clinton people who are fairly high up, and they're saying they're not involved in -- ken i can't think i guess we'll find out in the next batch of john podesta e-mails. julie: i think jill stein, don't forget, she said he poses less of a threat to the nation than hillary clinton. she is using this to raise money. this is a total scam. by the way, any democrats who are watching, liberals who are

watching, don't send jill stein money -- kennedy: there they go again, they're still maligning jill stein. dagen: if you give a dollar to jill stein, it is the equivalent of selling it there a -- julie: it's not voter fraud. come on, he won the election, can we just move on? katherine: she's got nothing to do, this is a nice thing for her to do now. kennedy: a hobby? [laughter] katherine: enough people just can't believe what happened that they actually are doe mating her -- donating her money. but it's not like it was close. i don't understand it either, but people still have to not come to terms with the fact -- dagen: we've written about this. it's not voter fraud. it's ridiculous, ironic conspiracy theories. >> that's exactly what it is. there's a sucker born every day, and apparently a lot of them are donating to this ridiculous effort, which is going to go nowhere. to their credit, some folks who study this stuff, nate silver, nate cohn at "the new york

times," elections gurus on the left, have looked at this and said there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever of hacking -- katherine: yeah, and julie's saying it. [laughter] julie: i got everything wrong, so don't listen to us. [laughter] kennedy: to your point, you know, nate silver and others are saying it's not just the voting machines. sure, she may have been down seven percentage points in areas where they use this technology, but you also have to look at the shifting demographics and this election, frankly, was weird. >> that's right. kennedy: you had people who weren't supposed to be voting for certain candidates flipping sides. there were entire counties that saw 0% shifts -- >> from obama to -- katherine: looking to blame absolutely -- they're not looking at what they can change. they're making excuses here, excuses there. it's like if you have a friend who, you know, if a guy breaks up with you, he's a jerk instead of being, hey, maybe you should have not called 911 when he didn't text you back -- julie: are you looking through my diary? what's going on? [laughter]

dagen: i want to point out something that nate cohn actually tweeted. the issue was with wisconsin, that a lot of these conspiracy theorists were pointing to, and he said in states that use paper ballots, iowa and minnesota, the results look exactly the same. >> that's right. these are are nearby states and paper ballots, so not hackable. the patterns were the same. there's nothing here -- julie: can i just say one last thing to my liberal friends who may be watching? we've got to move on. donald trump won the electoral college fair and square. you may not like it. you want to invest your money and energy? invest it in 2018 and then in 2020. move on. this is nonsense. jill stein is using you for her own financial reasons, it's a total crock -- dagen: hey, i was hugging it out a lot over the last couple of days with my friends. they had that look on their face -- kennedy: like i said. long, uncomfortable hugs. dagen: uncomfortable? i give the most uncomfortable hugs.

kennedy: that's not true, you've hugged me, and it's not uncomfortable at all. [laughter] president-elect donald trump getting two intelligence briefings since the election. not two per day, two total. is that enough to get him up to speed on the crises around the world? what his team has to say. plus, holiday shoppers are pounding the aisles looking for great deals. here's a live shot of a mall in west nyack, new york. look at that. boots on the ground. some of the season's hottest items are going on sale today. we're going to have a live report in moments. stay with us. ♪ ♪ for the holidays. before his mom earned 1% cash back everywhere, every time.

[ dinosaur growls ] and his dad earned 2% back at grocery stores and wholesale clubs. yeah! even before they earned 3% back on gas. danny's parents used their bankamericard cash rewards credit card to give him the best day ever. that's the joy of rewarding connections. learn more at bankofamerica.com/getcashback.

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antidepressants can increase these in children, teens, and young adults. trintellix has not been studied in children. do not take with maois. tell your healthcare professional about your medications, including migraine, psychiatric and depression medications to avoid a potentially life-threatening condition. increased risk of bleeding or bruising may occur especially if taken with nsaid pain relievers, aspirin, or blood thinners. manic episodes or vision problems may occur in some people. may cause low sodium levels. the most common side effects are nausea, constipation and vomiting. trintellix did not have significant impact on weight. ask your healthcare professional if trintellix could make a difference for you. ♪ ♪ dagen: the search is on for the best black friday bargains with shoppers hitting the stores in droves today. about three-quarters of americans plan to do some shopping today.

according to retailers, spending $3-$400 each this weekend alone. but you don't have to pick up that usual sweater or tie. you can find good deals in some unexpected maces. brian ennis is live from the palisades center in west nyack, new york. brian, good to see you. >> reporter: normally, people would do traditionally, but you were talking about three-quarters of americans going out and shopping. turns out many of those americans are choosing to shop online is and not come to the malls and the stores which is why we've got all these brick and mortar stores that are offering all of these incredible deals sooner -- actually, in the beginning of the month in some cases. we actually spoke to some shoppers who said, look, frankly, we kind of come just because it's tradition. >> compared to years past, this isn't black friday. i think the deals go on regardless. it's -- i expected the maul mall to look like this because of online. >> yeah. and a lot of the prices they were offering before thanksgiving and black friday

are the same as last week, like the pre-black friday sales. >> yeah, it's not bad at all. target was pretty clear. best buy was probably the busiest one, and that was probably ten minutes ago. >> reporter: more shoppers shopped online last year than stores, and now we're seeing brick and mortar stores offering these black friday doorbuster deals online including walmart which kicked off black friday online at midnight on thanksgiving day, toys r us which started on wednesday night, kohl's which made deals on thursday night, and target's ceo said they saw one of their strongest online shopping days ever on thanksgiving, double-digit increases in online sales. obviously, you know, people come out for the tradition, but online's really killing it. by the way, let's look at some of those hot items. this is a hatchimal, this thing actually a hatches from a hard-shelled egg going for $48 today, down from $60. we've got a dji phantom iii

standard drone which was going for $500, going for $360 at a walmart. best buy offering a 49-inch toshiba television, usually for $450, you can get it for $199. and payoff beats -- power beats earphones, they're going for $99, usually they're $200. and some holiday tips, by way, make a list, check it twice, bring a friend, keep to a budget and review your return policies. i think bringing a friend is a smart idea. have another second opinion on some of the things you buy, and somebody to tell you you probably shouldn't waste your money. so it's fun. black friday is always fun as long as you're not getting elbowed in the face. dagen: which happened to me two days ago, but that's another story. thank you, brian, good to see you. [laughter] >> reporter: no problem, guys. kennedy: president-elect donald trump's team pushing back after critics say his two intelligence

briefings since the election are not enough, but members of trump's team say the president-elect focused on the transitioning and still has time to get up to speed on international affairs and security threats. meantime, sources telling "the wall street journal" that the obama administration warned president-elect trump a nuclear north korea should be his biggest national security priority when he gets into office. so are two briefings enough? are they making more out of this than necessary? >> well, all i would ask as you look at this story through whatever lens you want to is for some intellectual consistency and honesty. because when president obama -- there were all these reports about obama skipping briefings left and right, the day after benghazi -- kennedy: as president. >> as president, and people went nuts on our side and criticized him very harshly. so if you're going to apply that standard to president obama, i think it's fair to ask similar questions and ask why is president-elect trump not doing this at the clip that others have, his predecessors have at this stage?

because there's a lot to catch up on by time you get sworn in on january 20th. now, the good news is mike pence is going every single day getting this stuff, and i think some of the idea behind the trump presidency all along was if he won, he would be a manager and delegator. i hope eventually he gets around to out. they say, oh, he's business -- busy with the transition. the president's always going to be busy. taking national security briefings must be every day as far as i'm concerned. kennedy: will mike pence operate as waylon smithers -- [laughter] and will he be whispering in his ear? julie: are we talking about president gary johnson? >> no! julie: too soon? dagen: say it again, because that's never happened. julie: i agree with everything guy said. ultimately, donald trump has never held public office before. mike pence has been a

congressman. i don't know what committees he served on in the house, but i hope that he had some sort of exposure. certainly, barack obama was a senator when he became president, didn't have much experience, but he had some experience with being in washington and dealing with these issues. donald trump has not and has only experienced internationally with business deals that he's made. some of the people he's had time to talk to on the phone since his election. and optically or not, it doesn't look good when he's got permits being approved in argentina after he gets off the phone with the president of argentina or india with meetings with real estate developers, but he doesn't have the time to get briefed. listen, it's a scary, scary world out there. he doesn't know much about it not because he's a dummy, but because he's never -- dagen: well, how kind of the obama administration to try and hold his hand on north korea. julie: they should. dagen: the office said they pledged, quote, we will be steadfast and strong to work with you to recollect against

the instability in north korea, and i'm talking about president park of south korea. and by the way, it's because the obama administration did jack all to stop the growth of the nuclear program -- [audio difficulty] katherine: at least needs to go. pence is going, pence is not the commander in chief. dagen: right. katherine: people are freaking out about how little experience he has in these areas. he is saying he's going to be a delegator, maybe he and mike pence are comparing notes, i don't know. but even in terms of optics, you've got to go to more than two. kennedy: i agree. and as president, you're going to have to do a bunch of stuff at once, so work on the transition, get the daily briefings. you'll feel better, you'll know what you're getting into, everyone will feel better -- dagen: it's being portrayed as every time an intelligence issue might come up in his presidency, it's like --

>> i don't think so. katherine: that's too far but, again, go to -- more than two. kennedy: a shocking new report showing gun-related deaths are up nearly 70% from a year ago including the officer that died the day gunmen targeted law enforcement in four different cities. so what's behind the surge in violence? we'll get into that in a moment. ♪ finish

♪ ♪ dagen: the number of law enforcement officers shot to death in the line of duty up about two-thirds over last year. sixty officers fatally shot in the united states so far this year, that is a 67% surge according to data posted by the national law enforcement officers memorial fund. twenty of those deaths are considered ambushes. the latest of those ambush-style killings was detective benjamin

marconi with the san antonio police force. he was one of four officers shot across four cities in just one day earlier this week. and remember the chaos in dallas last summer where an army veteran ambushed and killed five officers? police say he was angry about the string of police shootings of innocent black men. guy, what do we do to stop it, and is it rhetoric that's driving it? >> i don't like blaming relate are rick for political -- rhetoric for politically motivated violence because then we go down a very slippery slope where we start blaming people's thoughts and free peach for the terrible actions of criminals or mad men. just on this issue generally, obviously, when you sign up to be a police officer, you know to some extent you're putting your life at risk. it's part of the job, and that's why we're so grateful as americans for what they do for us. what really is so upsetting about these new statistics is the number of these deaths are not like, oh, robbers get caught up and start shooting and it's

sort of in the line of duty, someone gets hurt or killed. these are people intentionally ing cops -- dagen: assassination. >> that's what it is. i was talking with some nypd officers just the other day, i was in brooklyn for a basketball game, and we were chatting. they gave me some directions that i needed, and it just occurred these guys could get a call on their radio to go somewhere, and they will race there as fast as they can, and there is a chance, tragically, that that someone at the other end is waiting for them to try to do harm to them. and, i mean, that is why, you know, we get all involved in these black lives matter, blue lives matter. these folks are some of the best that our society has to offer. doesn't say that there aren't excesses, the police are not always right about everything, but overall our police are incredible. and these stories just break my heart. dagen: well, kennedy, don't you think that if we got more direction at least in the way

that all of our leaders speak about the value of what police officers do to us, would it stop -- how do you stop this? kennedy: yeah, you know what? i think it's interesting because the way hillary clinton talked about police officers in this country, it resonated with more than just cops. you know, because i really feel like she was pandering to a part of her base that she already had secured, and i find it to be really irresponsible because, and i've said this so many times, julie and i agree a lot about this, we need to have meaningful criminal justice reform in this country. we really do. but the fact that we need that is no way justificationing for this kind of murder, you know? these kind of assassinations. and i do think it's irresponsible. you know, i think it's one thing to set the tone in what you say and how you say it, and i think there are a lot of people who have friends can and neighbors and relatives who are cops, and they see the way that a lot of these elected officials -- particularly on the left -- disparage them. and, you know, in a blanket fashion, dismisses what they do

and how they do it. i think that that adds to the unease and the instability of the very few people who go out and hurt cops. katherine: right. and you can have your opinions on criminal justice reform. i agree that there's a lot to be done there. and you can have specific complaints about the police or the way law enforcement works, but these officers are people. they're individuals with families, and that's obviously something that we need to talk about rather than just vilifying the police force in general. it -- i don't, again, can't blame rhetoric, but obviously there's something going on if it's happening more often. >> you can blame incitement. katherine: yeah. >> obviously. but i think -- katherine: in general, i don't like to blame rhetoric for things like this. you don't hear someone and go out and kill somebody without having something else going on. julie: yeah. i'll just echo everything that you said, kennedy. there's a place for criminal justice reform. it doesn't mean you wake up one day and take out your anger and animosity against the very people who, by the way, often times are protecting the very community that you come from.

>> right. julie: i think that's very, very important to bear in mind. everybody needs to take a deep breath and realize the police d even if you have some bad officers and bad apples that you personally don't like, as a whole, as you've said, guy, are here to protect us. they are running into the fire, running into the situation when we're all running out, and that's important to bear in mind -- dagen: imagine your life, the community and the chaos if the police were not there for you at every turn. as president-elect turn prepares to the move to the white house, his wife, melania trump, defying the norm with her plan to become the first long distance first lady. what will this mean for the trump family? that's next. ♪ ♪ beyond is a natural pet food that goes beyond assuming ingredients are safe... to knowing they are. going beyond expectations...

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katherine: melania trump breaking the mold with her plans to be the first long distance first lady, at least for a little while. president-elect trump telling reporters his wife will stay behind in new york city at least until june so 10-year-old barron can finish school. earlier this year she told us weekly that her son is the priority, and she wants to

maintain some normality. kennedy, should we be protesting this in the street, or is this no big deal? kennedy: on one hand, i think it's wonderful that she's choosing to keep his life as normal as possible because his life is going to be turned upside down, you know? and as a parent who is traveling across the country every single week, it was a tough decision to decide whether or not i was going to keep doing that for six more months or move to new york city in the middle of a school year. we chose to do exactly what she's doing, and i think there are a lot of moms who have a great deal of respect for that. i feel bad for some of the people in their building who are now going to have to be subject to the secret service surveillance state, and i understand that, that traffic's going to be rough. but, you know, it's like who are we to say? katherine: i mean, plus it's for maybe til the end of the school year. maybe she'll reassess then. what do you think about it? >> this is not a story that i can get all that worked up about. again, going backing to the intellectual consistency thing that i was talking about earlier, we heard a lot from people on the left that

conservative complaints about lavish overseas vacations or to hawaii for the obamas, that was petty, that was nasty, you shouldn't question that or the of thing. this is just a mother and a father making a decision for their child. it's going to cost taxpayers more, yes, it will. and that's something that we can acknowledge. but i don't think it's a scandal. i think it's a reasonable family decision being made in the best interests of that child who's been swept up in this surreal experience of his father being elected -- dagen: how about not judging the decisions that a mother and a father make about their kid, right? that's what it boils down to. this is their decision, period. and i agree with you, that when president obama would go to martha's vineyard and people would criticize him for being on vacation or being away, i hated it when the left did it to george bush when he'd be at the ranch. i just think these men and their families, they work hard, they're under a lot of pressure. if they need to be away, then, you know, take a vacation. julie: melania strikes me as somebody who didn't ask for this, didn't want it, by all

accounts likes her life, i think got swept up in this. by all accounts, is a fabulous mother from everything that we've heard about her x i'm actually happy to say we haven't heard much about her, which is wonderful. because i think she values her privacy. if she wants to stay in new york, let her say in new york. this little boy -- let him do it. the only thing i will say is secret service-to pay an extra $3 million to donald trump to lease the top two floors of trump tower. if we were going to be hypocritical about how much money obama was going to spend on his vacations, this is going to cost taxpayers also, as you said, guy. other than that, in terms of the decision she makes for this little boy, god, leave him alone. kennedy: he's a little kid, and he's essentially an only child. julie: yeah. leave him alone. kennedy: the obamas' children were quite young, and the bush children were a little bit older, chelsea clinton i think is a bit more of a direct comparison, and it's always tricky.

dagen: it was tricky for amy carter when carters lived in the white house. what you said about melania, i feel the same way, and and it's why i hated that professional coathanger, gigi hadid, for making -- katherine: you know what? nobody likes it when people are mean. more "outnumbered" in just a moment. h, wish big at the lexus december to remember sales event. get up to $2,500 customer cash on select 2016 and 2017 models for these terms. see your lexus dealer. ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪ ♪jake reese, "day to feel alive"♪

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dagen: aging in reverse, benjamin button, i love it. >> i don't know about that. dagen: you look good. >> you're being very sweet. kennedy: go ahead and go shopping. we're back on monday, noon eastern right here. "happening now" starts right now. >> the bull market on wall street continues. take a look at the big board right now as the market closes early on this friday afterthanksgiving. just up 64 points, a little more than 25 million shares trading hands today, another day under president-elect trump and another record high for the dow jones industrial average. this as president-elect donald trump spends the holiday weekend working on his white house transition. his team teasing imminent announcement of two new staff picks but saying there won't be any more high level cabinet