reports -- and we have to be careful, those often are unreliable reports -- has to do with russia's action inside syria. this is a developing story, it could be very big, we'll wait for reaction and bring you all the breaking news when we're back here in an hour. jon: we will see you then. "outnumbered" starts right now. harris: making donald trump's presidency official. right now electors in new york, pennsylvania, virginia, north carolina and west virginia are among the first and now the very well known electoral college to meet in their state capitols. their job on this monday is to choose a new president, but democrats are launching a last ditch effort to deny president-elect donald trump the white house. how is that going to go? this is "outnumbered," i'm harris faulkner. here today, meghan mccain, ebony williams, katherine timpf and the host of making money, charles payne, on the fox business network, outnumbered,

and he's wearing some frogs. these are gorgeous. >> you like this? i'm hoping before the show's before, you guys will turn a frog into a prince. harris: then there'd be three for princes. you're already a prince. >> thank you. harris: shall we move? >> let's do it. harris: 538 members of the electoral college are expected to ratify results of november 8th and elect donald trump america's 45th president. 306 of them, as you may know, are pledged to trump. today's vote is seen as largely symbolic, but republican electors say they're being inundated by phone calls, e-mails and in some cases death threats to change their votes. and top aides are accusing critics of trying to use today's drama to delegitimize mr. trump's presidency. incoming white house chief of staff reince priebus told fox news sunday the harassment has got to stop. >> look, we expect everything to fall in line.

we've got one particular individual in texas, a statute in texas, but other than that we're very confident that everything is going to be very smooth tomorrow x this harassment from groups like moveon.org and the democrat party should stop, and it's what the american people demand. harris: and as he is wont to do, president-elect trump hit up social media to say he's being held to a double standard. he said: if my many supporters acted and threatened people like those who lost the election are doing, they would be scorned and called terrible names. doug mckelway live with more news for us from washington. >> reporter: as much as democrats and pundits are making a big deal of attempts to force electors to change their vote, the chances of that actually happening are slim, indeed. in the history of the united states, electors have voted for candidates of their choice 99% of the time. then again, we've never seen the kind of tremendous pressure that's being put on electors to

change their vote. many even receiving death threats. >> the worst thing is probably the most uncomfortable thing is that one day i had a couple e-mails from the same person that said they were going to follow me, and they were going to make us very uncomfortable. the next day on the freeway, i was actually looking to my right, and i see people following me actually with their phone up against the window videoing. they slowed down behind, they got in front of my car, at a traffic light they were taking pictures. >> reporter: following death threats in pennsylvania, some electors have been offered police protection to be cast their votes at the state capitol where demonstrators, as you can see, are awaiting them. still, only one gop elector has pledged to change his vote, from texas. >> since i've come out, the cia has had a report in "the washington post" that says that russia was not trying to undermine our elections, but they were actively working to help donald trump become our president. for too long electoral college

members have worked as a rubber stamp. well, i'm going to tell you now, i will not be a rubber stamp for the kremlin. [cheers and applause] >> reporter: there are 538 electors in total, the same number as there are representatives and senators in congress if you include the three electors from the district of columbia. after their votes are tallied today in various state capitols, they'll be sent to the national archives and to the house and senate where they will be counted and the winner announced on january 6th. the last step, of course, the swearing in of the new president on january 20th, and we fully expect that to be donald trump. harris, back to you. harris: doug, thank you very much. you know, charles, as we look across the color spectrum, perhaps the new fall color for democrats is desperate. this seems desperate, threatening people. >> yeah. you know, it's interesting, this morning the union square people, it's a big train station in new york, there were 50,000 post-its of people whining after the election comparing it to 9/11. they've decided to put that away, and they're going to keep it in storage. now the new thing is we're going

to go on the offensive, even physically intimidating people who don't agree with us. listen, we know it's all about delegitimizing the donald trump presidency because even if for some crazy reason 37 electors say, hey, we're faceless, in other words, what do they really want out of this? i had the misfortune of interviewing christine pelosi, and this is the most belligerent, arrogant and, i've got to tell you, selfish act that i've seen in a long time. for a group that said to donald trump please accept the result through the election, they're certainly being big hypocrites. meghan: nancy pelosi's daughter, correct? >> yes. katherine: i agree it's pathetic, it's over! you can be tempted to keep e-mailing and begging for it not to be over -- harris: are we still talking about the election or your love life? [laughter] katherine: we're talking about both. it's true, i may have learned it from that, but it does apply here also. makes you look pathetic --

>> it didn't work? katherine: doesn't work, no. harris: in the mid 1800s was the last time we saw more than one person stand up and flip their vote, became that faceless elector that you talked about outside of the death of a candidate. it's been that long. it would be that rare for just not that one man in texas that we publicly know about who said he's going to defy and not vote for trump as he's pledged to do, he's going to do something different. if one other person joined him in doing that in flipping their vote, it would be legendary, historic. so, obviously, extremely rare. what are democrats hoping to do? meghan: well, we talked about that past last week with debra messing and michael moore is saying -- harris: we've got his tweet, let's pop that up, michael moore's tweet. apparently, you know, when things go wrong, all these celebrities who threaten to leave the country now have just taken to twitter. meghan: i think it's a publicity stunt at this point, they want

to show there's sort of insolent protesting going on, but i would implore these hollywood celebrities, as you just said, this would be historical and would throw our democracy into chaos. even the most cursory knowledge of electorates, they have a lot of party loyalty. that man that we showed the clip of is the head of the rnc in arizona that was getting harassed. unless you have literally world-changing american history type news that shows why they should change their vote, it's just not going to happen. harris: so, ebony, i come to you for the law. [laughter] i mean, you're representing the bench as well. ebony: thank you. harris: none of this behavior is legal. you cannot threaten anybody in this way. this is not free speech. so what would you say as an attorney? ebony: sure. so as we're listening to all of this kind of rhetoric and all the heightened emotions, the thing that stuck out to me most are the fact that people are riding in their cars, many of them with their families, their children, who knows, exprg they are being threatened, harris.

and that is a real criminal act. we cannot have any tolerance for it regardless of political opinion, regardless of how us from rated and upset -- frustrated and upset you might be. and instead of taking this time and really reflecting as a party on what went wrong, what could have been done better, what lessons you can learn, you're wasting all kinds of important and valuable time trying to delegitimize. but i will say this around hypocrisy, i don't cry that many tears for president-elect trump because he did try to delegitimize the presidency of barack obama. he has since apologized from it, but it helps no one. i really hope we can all take a lesson from that. harris: well, and we didn't see people back then doing what they're doing now, trying to change the electoral college results, so on and so forth. all right, there are growing calls into widening the probe over whether russia hacked and influenced our election.

a bipartisan group of senators is asking for an investigation. why the intelligence community cannot get it done alone, here's chuck schumer. >> first, things could be left out, there could be holes that no committee covers. second, we could get contradictory information. the fbi says this, the cia says that, and they're not reconciled. and, third, the existing committees are very, very busy. a select committee whose only focus is to get to the bottom of this is what is called for. harris: meanwhile, incoming white house chief of staff, again, we'll hear from reince priebus who says on fox news sunday president-elect trump would be open to the findings of the intel community on one condition. >> i think he would accept the conclusion if these intelligence professionals would get together, put out a report, show the american people that they're actually on the same page as opposed to third parties through "the washington post" -- >> [inaudible] >> right, but we haven't heard from clapper.

we haven't heard from comey. i mean, we -- so, look, i think that these guys should be straight with the american people and come out and say it. harris: and john we december -- podesta, the chairman of hillary clinton's failed presidential build, weighed in on all of it. >> nick christophe wrote this morning in "the new york times" that it's not that putin and trump were colluding to affect the election, it's that the russians were trying to elect a lap dog. but i would argue that it's very much unknown whether there was collusion. so i think really not what mr. trump knew, but what did trump inc. know and when did they know it, were they in touch with the russians. i think those are still open questions. harris: wow. i never knew that the democrats could make 300 million people vanish. [laughter] by doing this, they're ignoring our own safety. they're so focused on politics. >> you know, i don't know why podesta doesn't go away. that was a pathetic interview yesterday.

and, again, here's the thing, it wasn't the hacks, it wasn't the hacks, it was what was revealed by the hacks, okay? and what america learned is that the democratic party who had advertised themselves to be one thing, proved to be something else when they thought they were only talking amongst themselves. they proved to be biased, mean-spirited, underhanded. ask bernie sanders' supporters. they proved to be almost everything they said the republicans were. that was proven mostly through podesta's e-mails. so it's embarrassing that he would actually get up there and continue this argument instead of hiding under a rock because one thing's for sure, the russians did not decide who became the president, okay? now, if you want to say the e-mails? guess what? those e-mails were from the democrats, and they never denied that. harris march you know, meghan, as we look at the total picture, president obama was talking about president putin of russia, and you're talking about revelations that came from e-mails.

how about revelations from the president? i'm curious to get your take on it. >> i felt the most effective way to insure that that didn't happen was to talk to him directly and tell him to cut it out, there were going to be some serious consequences if he didn't. and, in fact, we did not see further tampering of the election process. but the leaks through wikileaks had already occurred. so when i look back in terms of how we handled it, i think we handled it the way it should have been handled. we allowed law enforcement and the intelligence community to do its job without political influence. harris: he told 'em to cut it out, stop that hacking. [laughter] that doesn't even work on my 7-year-old. meghan: in all seriousness, that clip has been hard for me to watch because it does make a mockery of those of us whoever taken russia -- who have taken russia so seriously as an international threat. same man who joked to mitt

romney's face that it was a 1980s foreign policy program. i agree with what reince priebus said, the american public needs an illumination on this. that being said, it breaks my heart that our national security is being politicized by people like john podesta -- harris: that's a problem. meghan: and my final thought is i'm having a really hard time with the idea that the american public has such a lack of faith in our national security, our cia and our fbi. a lot of people have been feeting me, because -- tweeting me over the weekend, and a lot of americans do trust -- >> that faith has been earned over a long prosecutor, particularly the cia. they've gotten so many things wrong -- meghan: but you don't know what has gone on, what our spies have done and stopped. >> i'm not saying they haven't done great things, but from the bay of pigs to more recently, they've squandered -- katherine: it's impossible for the democrats to talk about it without mentioning the election or alluding to the election when it's been people on the conservative side who have been

saying russia's something we need to be concerned about and being mocked until it becomes politically expedient which is something that we saw in the e-mails themselves too. harris: maybe not an accident that, you know, the american public would have hired, if you will, a president to deal with russia who, obviously, has some strong thoughts about dealing with russia. ebony: absolutely. i'll say this, for me it's a really big problem that we are connecting two really important things that really shouldn't be connected in this political way, right? there's the issue of cybersecurity and the hack, and that's important. and we're seeing bipartisan calls from across all spectrums to get to the bottom of this and, hopefully, president-elect trump will accept a consistent place around knowing really what that's about. then the other side is the electoral conclusion around it. and that's the problem, right? for so many people they don't want to believe the nature of what's going on with the hack and russia because it's dependent upon a particular -- >> i don't think they're connected. harris: can i ask you, ebony, i'm curious to get your take on this, how did we get there?

i mean, who legitimately believes that anything having to do with the hacking investigation that could take months or years would stop the electoral process that's going on in capitols right this hour? who believes that? ebony: well, from podesta and things like this that are saying -- harris: that's fantasy. ebony: of course it is. i'm saying that's very problematic. it shouldn't be, charles, that's kind of my point. meghan: you can believe russia committed espionage on this country and believe hillary clinton was a horrible, flawed candidate -- [inaudible conversations] they're not mutually exclusive. and john podesta's trying to do it -- ebony: as long as those are attached to one another, you're going to have people not paying attention to really important things. harris: while some hillary clinton insiders have blamed russianers -- russian hackers for the loss, but is the goal to

blame anyone but hillary? plus, new york times columnist paul klugman suggesting president-elect donald trump may want a terrorist attack to earn political points. did he go too far? right after the show join us, we pop up live online, foxnews.com/outnumbered, click on the overtime tab, and facebook live, our handle, outnumberedfnc. we're coming right back. [ crowd noise ]

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harris: fox news alert on a situation that's been unfolding for the better part of an hour. this is ankara, turkey, and we knew that among those potentially hurt by a gunman who opened fire inside of a photograph exhibition there that was going on, russia's

ambassador to turkey was shot. the russian foreign ministry has confirmed that she was not -- or that he was shot. we are receiving some different reports, as we firm those up, we'll bring you what we know confirmed. turkish police shot and killed the gunman, but what you're watching right now is all of the aftermath outside this exhibition of photography in ankara, turkey. bystanders say they heard at least eight shots fired, and according to an ap photographer who was in the audience, he heard someone in a suit and tie say allahu akbar, so that's according to the associated press' photographer who was in the audience of this. so, again, as we firm up the exact condition of russia's ambassador to turkey there, we'll let you know. and breaking news right here on fox news. meghan? meghan: some hillary clinton advisers are appearing to find a new scapegoat for her election

loss after first blaming fbi director james comey and then russia. now "vanity fair" says some in hillaryland are pointing fingers at huma abedin saying, quote: she was enjoying the red carpet and enjoying the photo spreads much too much in my opinion. she enjoyed being a celebrity too much and that the tight-knit group was dismissive of new ideas. the real anger is toward hillary clinton's inner circle, but a clinton campaign spokeswoman denying that, suggesting suggestions had fallen on deaf ears. i have talked about how i thought huma abedin was bad for her. she's a celebrity in and of itself, what do you make of the blame being put on her? katherine: i think she has some blame, you know, hillary surrounded herself with yes people, people that weren't going to tell her no, which is always going to be a problem because sometimes all of us need

to be told no. but it's still her fault for surrounding herself with those people, for not being the kind of person that could accept criticism or surrounding herself with people who could help her. again, people blaming everybody but themselves which is, of course, a comfortable thing to do, and it might make you feel better, but you do need to look at yourself to avoid making the same mistakes in the next election or, you know, relationship. again, same thing. harris: you know, i look back on the anniversary of 9/11, and we saw hillary clinton standing on the curb before she passed out and they whisked her away to her daughter's apartment. we didn't know what had happened. 90 minutes later, where has this presidential candidate gone, what has happened with her? we later learned she had pneumonia, i mean, more of a week later. my point is at the time clinton insiders were telling me that normally huma abedin would have been there to handle all that, she wouldn't have been standing on the curb by herself waiting for the ride to show up. so there were probably some unbreakables in that deal.

like deal-breakers. huma comes along with hillary no matter what, so these people in the inner circle and others can complain all they want, but she played a role. ebony: i don't know, harris. i'm -- can absolutely, she played a role. but personally i'm just so sick of everybody but hillary being thrown under the bus for hillary's demise. and, ultimately, it is on her. because she selected -- huma's not new, right? she's been around for many, many years around the clinton inner circle, and hillary had at her disposal the who's who of democratic party elites. she picked huma. she knew the tendencies, that she was going to love celebrity and the red carpet and that aspect -- katherine: and be married to anthony weiner. harris: somebody needed to be able to drive her to the hospital or coordinate that scene. meghan: james comey reinvesting their e-mails because of her husband's server, so there is legitimate blame to be placed --

>> oh, no, huma abedin was terrible. that's the only job she's ever had, working for hillary clinton. so hillary clinton was able to mold this person to be her offensive line, if you will. ultimately, the blame goes to hillary clinton. perhaps one of the boris candidates certainly -- the worst candidates certainly in my lifetime. but huma does represent one thing, that manhattan elitism that could never understand the iron worker in ohio who's been out of work for six years, that sort of circle that could never connect the dots that would think she wouldn't have to visit wisconsin. i remember when donald trump landed his plane in minnesota and he said to the crowd, hillary hasn't been out here. something went through me, and i said, what? it was like a couple days before the election. she hasn't even -- i mean, to take this election for granted that she could spend all of august in the hamptons, the whole thing was elitist and blew up in their face. and i think huma's a good poster child for it, but the better one is hillary. ebony: you know who's the opposite of that? bill clinton. he's such a southern, down home --

>> you think so? i think he's morphed a little bit. ebony: he knows how to campaign that way. and i've heard from clinton insiders that he was constantly ignored at every turn. harris: he certainly would have picked her up at the curb. meghan: obamacare, he's not that great a campaigner. if we learned nothing, the clintons of the '90s are not the clintons of today, and i wish they would go away. [laughter] president-elect donald trump tweeting out china can keep that drone, but we're told it's going to be returned tomorrow. plus, mr. trump pushing back on claims made by michelle obama during an interview with oprah winfrey. she said americans are lacking a sense of hope after the election. the first lady's message and whether it's time for her to come to terms with the results of the election. ♪ ♪ it takes hard work, dedication and hours of practice for a drum line to perfect its routine. rocket mortgage by quicken loans is just as precise...

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harris: want to catch you up on the very latest on this breaking news on fox news. russia's foreign ministry has confirmed that their ambassador to turkey has died from the his wounds. we've been covering it for about an hour here on fox news that he was shot and killed by a gunman inside of a photography exhibition in ankara, turkey, and we understand he was several minutes into a speech when this happened. people, obviously, in panic running, trying to escape, and in the aftermath we have learned that their ambassador to turkey has passed away. a couple of details.

the associated press had a presence inside this event. one of those people was a photographer who said that he heard a man in a suit and tie scream allahu akbar and then at least eight shots ring out. we're following the story, as we learn more from turkey, we'll bring it to you. and now to politics at home. new developments in china's seizure of a u.s. drone. two u.s. defense officials are telling fox news they expect the chinese to return the navy's underwater drone tomorrow. this after president-elect donald trump tweeted over the weekend: china steals united states navy research drone in international waters, rips it out of the water and takes it to china in unprecedented act. and then we should tell china that we don't want the drone they stole back. let them keep it. a spokesperson for china's ministry of foreign affairs says they didn't like the word "steal" and that when they found the device, they did an investigation -- [laughter] to make sure they knew what it was and whether it was really belonging to the united states.

charles is laughing. meanwhile, senator john mccain criticized the obama administration over the incident. he suggests its policies are emboldening countries like iran and now china. finish. >> the fundamental here is that the chinese have taken an american vehicle in international waters in gross violation of international law. there's no strength on the part of the united states of america. everybody's taking advantage. harris: defense officials say the same chinese ship which took the drone will return it. we're told there's no indication the research drone ever left that ship. charles, you were laughing. why? >> well, here's the thing. they're going to return it, the big question is will it be in pieces, or will they bother to put it back together? last week iran unveiled a new aerial attack drone that was made from a drone they had captured from the united states. of course john john mcis cane is correct. mccain is correct.

because of a feckless president obama who thinks foreign policy, we saw it earlier in the show, cut it out, doesn't work. china's going to take it apart, we'll see it again, unfortunately, it may be used against us somewhere down the road. harris: so why tell them to keep it? meghan: the first thing we're missing is that the misspelling of unprecedented was all over twitter all weekend. he spelled it like president instead of c-e-d. but i think internationally what people are learning is that a new sheriff is in town. as you pointed out, the last eight years of iranian soldiers making our solding tuck down and put their hands -- soldiers tuck down and put their hands behind their head, i think at some point it's going to hit a fever pitch. heifers harris we know -- harris: we know that china had just encircled taiwan with fighter planes, so this feels like another chapter. ebony: yeah. miami mad at that.

i agree for whatever you -- i've been a voter of president obama but highly critical of mainly his national security leadership. i think it's been pretty poor. so i'm very interested and intrigued and very willing to see what this leadership will look like under a president-elect trump because, as charles says, new sheriff in town. let's see what it looks like. when he says y'all can keep it, it sounds kind of crazy, but maybe he's saying, you know what? it's not that crazy. >> they've opened it up, looked at it -- ebony: you've already got the best of it. katherine: it's a little craze i to tweet it -- crazy to tweet it. he's talking about, like, country to country drama. so it's inappropriate on a personal level, this is certainly inappropriate especially if you're too enraged to make sure you spell right. it's just not a good look. ebony: autocorrect. katherine: twitter's not the place for -- >> i do want to say it feels to

me like a ronald reagan moment when he came in. of course, the iranian hostage crisis, that we've got some serious crises that are going to meet donald trump on day one. harris: absolutely. >> serious foreign policy crises that must be addressed on day one. meag maag but i think our enemies are going to learn the years of cut it out are -- >> they're going to have to learn. and some will test us like china. ebony: donald trump pushing back on claims that the country is lacking a sense of hope following his november election victory. first lady michelle obama making the controversial comments during her final white house interview with oprah winfrey. she's taking an indirect swipe against the president-elect by pitting him against her husband's former campaign slogan. >> now we're feeling what not having hope feels like, you know? [laughter] hope is necessary. it's a necessary concept. and barack didn't just talk

about hope because he thought it was just a nice slogan to get votes. i mean, he and i and so many believe that if -- what else do you have if you don't have hope? ebony: although mr. trump was not particularly critical of the first lady's comments, he did make a point to counter them at his rally in alabama on saturday. let's watch. >> michelle obama said yesterday that there's no hope. but i assume she was talking about the past, not the future, because i'm telling you -- [cheers and applause] we have tremendous hope. and we have tremendous promise and tremendous potential. i honestly believe she meant that statement in a different way than it came out, because i believe, i believe there is tremendous hope. and beyond hope, we have such potential. this countries has such potential -- this countries has such potential. you watch, it's going to be so special. ebony: okay, charles, a few things. harris was saying during the

clip, he seems to very much be going out of his way to give her the benefit of the doubt, really reframing it in a way that i'm not sure many of us believe she did mean it. and secondly, she is the first lady of the united states, but she's also a human being. does she have a right to say her opinion and an opinion that is reflected by some in this country, but as first lady is that out of bounds? >> i think she was out of bounds in the sense that she was speaking for we, assuming all of americans. and, obviously, she hasn't been paying attention to the size of the rallies. obviously, she didn't pay attention to all of the counties that her or husband won twice that donald trump won. obviously, she didn't pay attention to the stock market. obviously, she hasn't paid attention to consumer sentiments surveys, manufacturing surveys or the housing survey that came out last month with the biggest jump since july of 2005. obviously, she's not paying attention to certain things, and i think that's irresponsible as first lady. you can with upset and sat and and -- upset and sad, but you

can't say the country's been stripped of hope. maybe certain people have, but the country overall is on a very optimistic path right now. ebony: harris. harris: yeah. i mean, we're heading into one of the holiest times on the christian calendar, and i'm ec ecumenical in my household, so i'm thinking of the judeo calendar. without hope i think of things like what's going on in syria, the holocaust, the pilgrims, i think of a lot of things without hope. a country whose electoral college is about to say that it was legitimate on november 8th to elect donald trump and actually putting that into motion does not bleed hopelessness to me. i'm confused by what she means. and my mom used to say if you see a problem, that means you're obligated to help. so is she going to stand up and and help? what is she going to do about it? katherine: it also represents democrats continuing to be out of touch with the same group of people that voted for trump, which is why they lost. some people are feeling like there's no hope, but some people are feeling hope for the first time in a long time.

a lot of people in those flyover states who haven't had their concerns addressed by president obama and the administration before that. to say all americans, like you were saying? if this continues, democrats are going to keep losing because some people have more hope than they've ever had. ebony: meghan, let's talk about those people. some absolutely optimistic, be some people legitimately don't have hope because of donald trump. can michelle obama speak to that group? is that okay for you? meghan: i actually watched this whole interview because i'm just fascinated by her last exit interview. i thought the setting was a little weird. she goes on to talk about how gracious the bushes were when they left office and how much advice laura bush gave and the advice she was giving to melania trump, and i find it strange that they're not even, they haven't even left yet, and she's already talking smack about our new president or his supporters at least. i think it's really tone deaf

for where we are in the country, it's really important for the transition of power that they put on a brave face and say this is what our country likes. i've said it on this couch, he's going to be the most angry, upset, bitter ex-president. he will be doing his first interview with jimmy fallon two weeks out of office, and he will be critical of donald trump, i see it. ebony: you're not at all hopeful about what seems to be a pretty positive relationship between at least donald and barack obama right now? meghan: the first lady isn't going on saying there's a world without hope if everything is peachy and they're excited. they would not be saying this about hillary clinton, and as charles pointed out, i think it's incredibly tone deaf right now after such an his tomorrowic election. i just wish they would take a page out of the book of what the bushes have done, because i think they have conducted themselves with such class and sophistication. and i'm not saying they can't. president bush hasn't uttered one negative thing about obama

to my knowledge his entire eight years in -- ebony: well, i will continue to be hopeful, meghan. [laughter] a new york times columnist is taking heat for suggesting president-elect trump would have an incentive for a terrorist attack on homeland soil. is this the kind of media bias we can expect for the next four years? ♪ ♪

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♪ ♪ harris: welcome back. new allegations of bias in the media. well known new york times columnist paul krugman appeared to suggest president-elect donald trump would welcome another terror attack to help him politically. he tweeted this: thought there was, rightly, a cloud of illegitimacy over bush, spelled wrongly, by 9/11. creates some interesting incentives for trump, end quote. mr. trump responded bluntly at a thank you rally over the weekend. >> they had a clown today in the failing new york times who said

that i wanted to have another world trade center catastrophe because it's good for my base. can you believe this? no, no. no, no, think of it. think of to it. what kind of a demented potential would say that? think of to it, thousands of people killed. anybody that says that, and this guy is demented, he's a demented person. and that's why the times is failing. harris: one clown and two departmenteds. -- demented, later krugman walked back his comments, well, sort of. no, it won't be a false flag terrorist attack, too hard and no need. it will exploit a real terrorist attack or involve a u.s. version of the falkland war, picking a fight to rally home base. iraq had some elements of that. charles, this guy has a lot of free time. [laughter] >> well, you know, it's amazing that he got economics wrong for, like, three decades and now they let him go out to the political world. it's mean-spirited, what he

said, have the nerve to put it out there. we do know during the election whenever there were attacks in this country, it underscored a policy that wasn't working, a policy for barack obama and one that hillary clinton was buying into, and that's helped donald trump because people were saying, you know what? >> maybe we need to be tougher, move away from some historic norms with respect to immigration and other things if we want to stay safe and alive. that's a lot different than saying you want to see a 9/11-style attack. harris: what category are we putting paul krugman in? >> nuts, crazy -- harris: an op-ed artist? again, what? >> he started off as an economist -- meghan: notoriously wrong, recollect? >> notoriously wrong. and now he's a columnist -- katherine: it's weird you can make a career out of that, being wrong over and over. ebony: you're pointing out a good thing which is we have to now recategorize these people

who used to be thought of as journalists, and we now know that doesn't apply to a lot of these people. but the american people, i think, unfortunately, are not being given that gift, that gift of saying this is an op-ed person, this is an objective journalist. and i want to say one more thing. the reset that president-elect trump has continuously tried at his credit to do with "the new york times", it's all for nothing, right? it's all for nothing because at every turn there continues to be -- and he's an op-ed guy, this is his thing, he has every right to say it, but it really undermines the credibility of the relationship between a president-elect trump and, quote, mainstream media. harris: thank you for understanding my point. you are my hero. and one of the reasons i bring it up is, you know, when we tweet things out as journalists, we're held to a different standard. ebony: sure. harris: and we can debate all day long whether or not we think it's fair, i do think it's fair. we could say he wasn't working at the time and he was tweeting, but it's in bounds. am i wrong about that in your eyes, charles?

>> no, i mean, it's very -- he launched an attack on the next president of the united states -- harris: in bounds for the category of journalism, is what i'm saying. >> oh, absolutely. katherine: and there's a difference between an opinion, i'm a columnist, and instead of writing a column or forming an opinion in a tweet, just trying to develop some sort of random conspiracy theory in case something happens in the future. that's not journalism, that's not anything, that's just crazy. harris: so are we in a new day and age? because we have a president-elect who's also tweeting and who's talked about, his team has talked about moving the chairs inside the white house press corps and in a bigger picture having a different relationship with media. so are we about to see a paradigm shift in that especially is, and what do -- in that sense, and where do we put things like that? meghan: paul krugman incompasses everything that's wrong "the new york times." he's attacking our president saying he would benefit from a 9/11 attack. i mean, the insensitivity not only to our troops, but to the victims of 9/11 and beyond go, i

mean, it's kind of difficult for me to talk about because it's just so wildly insensitive. "the new york times" needs to take a cold, hard look at the house and the journalists and what they're saying and writing at this very moment because there's such a massive distrust towards this publication. again, i don't know if you're or a journalist or a columnist, and that's a really big problem -- harris: well, remember earlier this fall when their editor said they were going to rededicate themselves to journalism. i don't even know what that means. i'm going to rededicate myself to doing laundry on saturdays. meghan: maybe hire religion columnists or an editor in order to expand your are world view past man at -- manhattan. ebony: and when did they decide to opt out of journalism? just asking questions. harris: excellent questions. [laughter] amid reports of tension on college campuses, now two public universities are offering classes on the problem of whiteness. you cannot make this up. it's part of what they're calling a push for racial justice. and guess who's going to pay for it? we'll debate it next.

♪ ♪

harris: more "outnumbered" in just a moment. first, though, to jon scott with what's coming up in the second hour of "happening now." jon: breaking news out of for key, to be precise. the russian body to that country assassinated at an event in ankara. what happened and what will it mean to already-strained international relations. we'll get into that. plus, electors in several states meeting at this hour to formally vote for president. at the end of the process, we expect donald trump will officially be president-elect. the very latest on the presidential transition ahead, "happening now." harris: we won't miss a second of "happening now." thank you. jon: all right, thank you. meghan: so much for trying to find unity on college campuses.

now two more taxpayer-funded united stateses, the university of wisconsin-madison and the university of colorado-denver are offering courses on what's being called the, quote, problem of whiteness. the course in wisconsin, quote: aims to understand how whiteness is socially constructed and experienced in order to help dismantle white supremacy. and it, quote: implores how whites consciously and unconsciously perpetuate institutional racism. and the colorado course description saying the class, quote: takes a deeper or look into how race operates withinexh operations ultimately impact people of color. now, i'm going to go to you, charles, first. [laughter] recently, no shade to her, i recently found out she had a hard time understanding how to balance her checkbook. i wish they were teaching that in college. she's fine now. [laughter] >> now that you mention it, you know, at first i thought maybe they were going to show a lot of leave it to beaver re-runs. it's really so absurd in so many different ways.

but if it was a private college, i wouldn't care as much. it's a public university using, you know, taxpayer money and it perpetuates this sort of theme. and i think this does more to keep people separated than it does to cope them together or allows -- to keep them together or allows students to get to know each other naturally. i can remember when i was in the air force hanging out with guys with confederate flags, and they would say, listen, i grew up a certain way, we'd drink some jack daniel's, but we became good friends, you know? and i think these kind of things are really under the guise of trying to unite when they really, i think, do more to make people not like each other or say they're victims of the system. ebony: i had a different experience. i went to the university of north carolina at chapel hill, and it was required, obviously, public-funded university, required that we take a, quote, diversity class. my issue with this class is it's called the problem of whiteness. and so that means you're going into the curriculum under a

notion of whiteness being problematic. and i don't think anyone in this country should think that just because of the race they are, the color of their skin they are by default problematic. but i do think there's value in understanding one's culture. unc, beautiful school, i loved my school, it was very segregated, charles, actually. so these types of classes i took, african-american studies, hispanic studies, women's college classes, i know people hate those buckets, but they encouraged us to learn about one another -- >> but this course seems like they're indicting all white people for all the problems -- ebony: that's a huge problem. >> i don't know if that's going to help. katherine: true. huge problem. [laughter]a lot of these classes, so what are we going to do to solve it? obviously, we should talk about race issues and those sorts of things, but on the other side, a student wrote an op-ed at the university of california -- berkeley saying privilege is a problem, but privilege checking is also a problem because it makes people with a privilege want it to continue. so at a certain point it becomes

not productive and just becomes trying to find as many things wrong because it makes you feel smarter and more culturally literate than other people around you. and like you said, you should be teaching things that are more useful or focusing on that a little more than just making the focus on this. harris: oh, interesting. well, my white husband and i will have quite the conversatiof at dinner. meghan: more "outnumbered" in just a moment.e >> maybe you could teach a course. new aleve direct therapy.

harris: so when you hang with charles payne, you learn the meaning of accessories --

[laughter] and you also get a lot smarter about the economy. are we going to hit 20,000 on the dow this week? >> absolutely. harris: all right are, you heard it from charles payne. stay with us for outnumbered overtime on the web, foxnews.com/outnumbered, click on the overtime tab. and also jon and jenna, "happening now." embassy to turkey. the diplomat is now dead. it happened in turkey in which the embassy was delivering a speech. we are juste getting the first photos. and eyewitness they shouted god is great in a rabic. he continued to rant. and that rant was said in turkish and that is notable for a few