"the o'reilly factor" ." i am jesse watters, in for bill o'reilly. he will be back on monday. i will be back too. please remember, i am watters. and that this my world. >> tucker: good evening and welcome to "tucker carlson tonight." >> shut it down! shut it down! >> tucker: you are looking at the new face of academic freedom. in vermont, they ruined a lecture planned by social socios charles murray. they were so offensive, they should not be spoken aloud. a professor was briefly hospitalized. first up, president trump is launching a fierce attack on the

story about jeff sessions and the russian ambassador. nancy pelosi, we are looking at a picture of her meeting the russian ambassador. chuck schumer schmoozing with vladimir putin. president trump tweeted this... the president later said i here by demand a second investigation after schumer or pelosi for her close ties to russia and how she lied about it. would you and your team? nancy nancy pelosi tweeted this. congressman sean patrick represents new york.

he has called sessions a bigot and now he is potentially a criminal. he said we need to look into the bigger picture here and figure out why sessions perjured himself. we have an independent investigation, what are they hiding? the obvious question is what are you implying? that sessions is in the kremlin, that he is an agent? >> no i'm saying we should find out what the truth is. we all ought to step back and just let the facts play out. it is extremely concerning that he gave false testimony under oath to the senate. as part of his confirmation hearing. that's enough for me to have them step aside but the bigger issue is what the russians were up to because we now have multiple officials who seem to be playing footsie with the russians and either lying about it or forgetting about it or

hiding it in the case of bringing them into trump tower to see the president's son-in-law. what is going on with the russians, and if both parties cared equally. >> tucker: i think we know the answers to some of those questions. the first meeting that jeff sessions had with the russian ambassador, the famous meeting in cleveland, that meeting turned out to be set up actually by the obama administration under a program run by the obama state department that brought in 100 different ambassadors to watch the convention in progres progress. the conference was an educational program for ambassadors, the obama state department handled all the coordinating of which there were about 100 ambassadors. that does not sound ominous to me. those are facts. how do you respond to that? >> we shouldn't have any problem with having an independent investigation. let's have the u.s. attorney,

president trump reappointed him, thinks of the world of him, i will suspend my call to have the attorney general resigns until we find out what the results of that investigation are. >> tucker: i am not sure your call is meaningful in the first place. before initiating an investigation, wouldn't it be worthwhile if you could point to something that is in fact, ominous? >> i think it is ominous that we have now multiple trump officials in communication with the russians about ukraine -- >> tucker: you are going from specifics, jeff sessions here, the attorney general whose recognizing resignation was called for. the second meeting took place in his office. at present at that meeting were two retired officers.

if there was some conversation between sessions and the russians about influencing foreign policy in favor of russia, do you think those two officers would have remained silent? >> i think we should ask them tm what transpired. >> tucker: many senators met with this ambassador. >> i said we should have a fair look. that's why suggested we have an independent guy do it and we all sit back and let him get the facts out. >> tucker: what is so infuriating is that you are being disingenuous. you know he met with many different people on both sides. including during the campaign. and yet you are saying -- >> the problem is not that he's meeting with american officials, the problem is when they lie about it under oath or forget about it or disguise it. that's what's happened in each of the cases. >> tucker: that's actually not

the problem you are a legend. you are saying and i am just reading right from your press release, the attorney general committed perjury. a heavy thing to say about someone who has not been charged or on trial. >> that is what we call lying under oath. >> tucker: perjury is a very specific crime you are alleging. you know as well as anybody he would not be convicted. >> oh, no i do not. there's more than enough evidence to convict him. >> tucker: the next part of it is when you say what were they hiding? i'm just asking you, one that is this about, what are you alleging? do you think the trump administration worked with the russians to have trump went back over hillary? >> there is more than enough here, all americans who care

about our country should want to get to the bottom of the spirit the most fair way is to find out why, to influence our elections, that is not in dispute -- you don't dispute the findings of the intelligence agencies. >> tucker: i dispute your character characterization of it. we cannot point to a single instance where the russians spoke to anyone affiliated with the trump campaign that we know of about changing the outcome of the election. we cannot point to a single point that shows russian influence affected the outcome. am i missing something? >> i did not say that but i am happy to let an independent investigation look at that. what we do know is that there are intense concern. the attorney general admitted they discussed that subject. michael flynn admitted it but

then lied about it. there is a lot of smoke here. let us let an independent outside person that the president just appointed find out. >> tucker: if i said to you people are saying congressman you have committed murder. i'm saying people are saying that. you would say there's no evidence. all we need is to put someone on the case, get forensics on you and see what the truth is. he would say that's an unfair slander because in fact, there is no evidence in any way. >> if that's what i said, had i recently lied about it under oath, that's the point. i know chuck schumer ate a doughnut with him. the point is, he did not lie about it under oath. >> tucker: you are literally disingenuous. >> i'm not being disingenuous. i will come back on this show and i will admit that i was wrong if we can have a fair and

neutral examination. we need an independent look at what happened. why are you afraid of that? >> tucker: [laughs] what i am amazed by -- >> you are laughing about the russians trying to influence our country. i'm not calling for more. >> tucker: you had to go senators in your party yesterday -- >> we have an undisputed effort at the highest level that the russians influenced our electio election. >> tucker: get off your talking points for two seconds. >> i guess i would be curious why you would oppose that. >> tucker: i live in washington and i know there is a long series of government to attempt and successfully influence american policy. russia is not on the top ten of that list. so i did not believe that your concerns dark sincere.

i believe this is purely partisan to take out certain members of the administration. look at you, hiding behind the pretense about the activity -- do you think russia is in the top ten influencers of american policy? >> i live in new york, we have a u.s. attorney here who i trust. i'm willing to let the president's appointee at the u.s. eternity in new york take a look at at. there's so much smoke here. russia is a great threat to the united states. >> tucker: name one specific way that the russian government influenced the outcome of this election. >> don't set up that straw man, tucker. >> tucker: you said about nine times that all americans should be concerned, give me one example where one indication. you don't have one. >> that is not the standard.

if somebody takes a shot at my head and misses, i am still going to care about it. >> tucker: then give me one example -- do you believe they broke into the voting machines? >> i do not know if there is any evidence of that. it's not in dispute, tucker, i wish she would take it a little more seriously. i watched your interviews -- if i could finish -- interview wite attorney general. i thought you did a good job of asking him tough questions and taking it seriously. what is not in dispute -- >> tucker: he gave me answers, unlike you. >> i think you know that -- it is serious enough. that is not in dispute. >> tucker: we are out of time. i have taken this seriously from

day one. i've had democrat after democra democrat -- >> we will let the facts for themselves. >> tucker: up ahead, just a few days ago, micro had this to say. >> if you want to make america great again, you have to make work cool again. >> tucker: tonight, we welcome the organization that gives kids great jobs. without getting a college degree first. senator rand paul says the republicans are trying to hide the obamacare replacement from him. we will show you the showdown that was going on capitol hill. ? yeah, with liberty mutual all i needed to do to get an estimate was snap a photo of the damage and voila! voila! (sigh) i wish my insurance company had that...

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>> tucker: internal republican party news it took a weird and interesting new direction. senator rand paul was searching for the house republican obamacare replacement bill. for more on what happened, we go to trace gallagher. >> hey, it was kind of an easter egg hunt, early involving dogs, democrats, and republicans. repealing obamacare, as long as it is not obamacare like. with a copy machine in hand, the kentucky senator made his well-publicized plea. >> i am part of the legislator, should i not be part of the process? i was elected to represent my state and i'm not allowed to see reworking products so i can comment on it?

>> we have to pass a bill to find what is in it, comment. speaking of pelosi, she and her two beagles were also scouring national hill. releasing the hounds usually in involves theatrics, confiding in a former consent, republican president. >> i can't find the bill. if you are as upset with your party as i am. >> apparently the game here is not hide and seek it, keepaway. with all due respect to senator paul, that is the way it works. >> that's exactly how legislation is supposed to be written. the things he described are just not accurate.

like i said, when the committee writes their bills and puts their marks up on it, everyone will see what they've have done. >> one states when the committee will begin to mark up the bill. >> tucker: well, that sounds like a lot of fun. congress has been back in session for more than two months but the day one repeal of obamacare? it has not materialized. vice president mike pence says the party has a unified outlook and outcomes are coming soon. diet obamacare? an orthopedic surgeon who has long been a critic of obamacare, it saying it must promote transparent pricing. thank you for coming on. >> thank you. >> tucker: how do you get to that? most patients have no idea what anything costs their journey through the medical system.

how do you fix that? >> it's a lack of transparency. it's been an issue with health care for a long time. if we look at health care spending in the country, one half of the country, about 165 million people only account for a little less than 3% of the cost which means they spend on average less than $300 a year on health care services. we need to be thinking about how can we put policies in place that really encourage people to get access to those prices and be able to use their own resources to get it. >> tucker: use their own resources to get the prices or pay for their own health care? >> to pay for it. one of the challenges we have seen is the massive increase in prices of premiums. not only are people seeing significant top deductibles and co-pays go up, they've skyrocketed. but also for the employer market as well when you look at the family policies and deductibles.

>> tucker: it has crossed a lot of people. if you are replacing obamacare was something better, what are the first two or three things you would do? >> you need to recognize and recreate a new entitlement. governments would love to wipe it clean but insurers, hospitals and providers have spent six years spending literally hundreds of millions of dollars trying to adapt. wiping a slate clean will not be effective. there needs to be a recognition of that. we need to recognize that an open ended entitlement of medicaid is being abused by all the states including the room publican driven ones. they need to get a handle on that and make that stop. >> tucker: the abuse of medicaid. how would you make that stop? not reimbursing at the rates we are? >> one of the things that president obama had in several budgets was a recognition that the way states get federal

funding it's very easily gained. actually you have very many democrats on record saying that system was not effective and could be too easily abused. there is a whole series of tricks and techniques that really states spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and even more on consultancies and pulling down to down taxpayer money. if we can cap it in the way that there could be some control is incredibly important. >> tucker: and obamacare, i think the least populated part is pre-existing conditions part parts. can you have a system that requires insurers to do that without having a mandate that everyone buys insurance? >> i think you can come up with solutions. the person to recognizes while half the country spends almost no money on health care, a very small percentage of the country spends the vast majority of the

dollars. we cannot let those people go by the wayside. finding some ways whether it is through high risk pool finding or reinsurance funding through the individual and even employer market to be able to allow some of those high cost individuals to be pulled out so that these families that are now paying $500 a month only to have the luxury of having a $6,000 deductible, to see those costs done down. >> tucker: supporting that was interesting. up next, children in vermont canceled a speech by charles murray. his ideas about inequality were so defensive they cannot be heard. we will talk to if professor who says murray's ideas should be heard. my sweethearts gone sayonara.

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him a sexist, a homophobic person. they also injured a professor who was exporting escorting hi. when murray spoke at princeton last year, she led students and faculty in a walkout. thank you for coming on. i've read a lot of the criticism of charles murray. whose work i am pretty familiar. they don't bear much resemblance to what charles murray is actually -- i want you to put a fine point of complaints, why is he beyond the pale? >> i'm not sure what you are referring to in terms of his work? >> a couple of things. he was denounced as antigay.

he was a proponent of gay marriage. a purveyor of racial pseudoscience, whatever you think of his ideas, i don't think anyone would denounce pseudoscience, the book you were referring to was written by him, a harvard professor. i'm wondering what you are talking about exactly. >> you think that black people have lower iqs than white people? >> tucker: no i think the bulk of charles murray's scholarship has nothing to do with the race at all and i am wondering to be totally blunt with you if you have read his books. >> yes. >> tucker: which ones did you read? >> the first one i read was "losing ground" in college. >> tucker: i beg your pardon, go ahead? >> that was an interesting book for me because the argument that black people were culturally dysfunctional and had all of

these behaviors that were incompatible with democracy and capitalism to be fascinating but completely false or fake news. given that i know the black community well. >> tucker: i read the book too. i don't remember him making that case that black people were somehow unable to live in a democracy. did you read "the bell curve?" >> i read parts of it, yes. i didn't read the entire but i read the critiques of it. the poverty law center has a dossier on him. whether or not he has claims, the generosity of black people and poor whites. it is just a fact. if you want to talk about freedom of speech and his rights to speak freely, i think that makes sense but what he has

written is out there for the public and i do not think we need to debate that. >> tucker: but that is kind of your point, you have already conceded that his central work you haven't actually read but you haven't read the book and instead you point to the southern poverty law center. i'm just saying should you take the scholarship seriously and if you disagree, explain why. >> there is a black man who wrote about how people with more melon and are more intelligent. do i need to read this work, do i need to invite this person to speak about how black people are more intelligent than white people? do i need to waste my time, your time, because he said it? just because he said it does need to mean i need to be wasting my time to read every word he has written. i i have other things i could be doing with my life that i could be doing.

>> tucker: were trying to prevent other people from expressing your views. >> tucker: i'm not at all. i did not at all. we did not shut him out. we literally just walked out the door. >> tucker: i guess the larger point here, if you disagree with the point someone is making, you should understand exactly what they are saying. his book was not primarily about race at all. >> do you know how much energy -- black scholars and people who work on african-american studies have had to spend so much time challenging racist scholarship and not enough time doing positive work. we have to stop paying attention to this. just because somebody says something and they are wealthy and privileged doesn't mean we all need to go running and accepted as good scholarship or treated as legitimate. there is a lot of bad scholarship out there. his work is bad scholarship.

>> tucker: you don't know what it is because you have not read it. >> i haven't read all of it. i have not read -- all -- of it. >> tucker: i would think you would want to grapple with the ideas in there and i wonder why. >> do. >> do you know how important books i bet you haven't read. >> tucker: your passing judgment on something you don't understand. >> said i don't understand it? i do. i do work in biological anthropology. there's no such thing as degeneracy of a certain population. which he claimed based upon portable poor whites and blacks are degenerate, that these genes are floating in these populations and they can't take advantage of freedom and democracy that we have in this country. >> tucker: i think you are grossly mischaracterizing the

book. i am surprised that you are claiming you read the whole thing. do you think that people have a right to say things that you find offensive? >> do i agree with what -- >> tucker: do you support shouting someone down? >> we didn't shout him down, he was allowed to speak. tucker carlson, we have a limited pool of resources at princeton. i do not think we need to spend any money on this. there are many in your audience knows that. maybe lower middle-class white people, who would love to get an education. let us spend that money on helping them go to school. right? that's what we need to spend our money on. not on constantly giving money and resources to scholars who

already we know there scholarship just doesn't pass the metal. >> tucker: you are saying there's an agreement consensus as that. let's get to the middle bury protest. do you think it's okay for people to prevent a speaker from speaking because they disagree with him? >> no, that is why we did not do that. you are allowed to speak but we do not want our institutional resources going toward somebody who claims people with more melanin are more intelligent. we do not want that kind of stuff. >> tucker: charles murray did not claim that. >> there are people that do, that's my point. his work is as absurd to me as that. >> tucker: i would challenge you to read it and then pass an informed judgment on that. we are out of time. professor, thank you for joining us. earlier this week, mike rowe

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>> tucker: the price of college continues to rise here after year. even public universities, to which it routinely above $10,000 a year. if you considered the most expensive private schools, it will put you in debt. what is the point of all this? an organization that places young people and apprentice

ships and workplaces, it's a really interesting idea. thank you for coming on. >> thank you for having me, happy to be here. >> tucker: i have spent a lot of time working with young people, high school students, college students and seen them graduate and all this debt surrounding them but they can't find jobs. i started working with a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners. i am hearing them say i am hiring all the time i just can't find good talent. i thought something is amiss here. people are spending all this time, five years on average. thousands of dollars. it sometimes six figures. they're coming out no better prepared to go and create value and to get a job than they were when they went in. i would argue sometimes they come out worse because they pick up some habits in life -- >> tucker: that is totally

true, nobody ever says it. college helps a lot of people but also destroy some people. that is real. >> we see it all the time. people getting into the program, if they have had some college especially, we joke about a d schooling process. chase credentials, chase grades and wait to be told what to do and you'll be handed this magical ticket to a job. it's just not true. if you stand in line with the resume and say look i have a degree, whether or not you have a degree, you need more than that today. the good news is is you theater to offer. to embark on projects and things you can show not just trust this degree but here is what i have done. here is what i have built. that's what we are all about. place someone in a position where they can learn by doing. >> tucker: you are a placement firm for people bypassing college and want to go right

into the workplace. >> it's a little bit more than that. a lot more than that. that is a key part of it. the program we have a three month boot camp. you have the raw drive, the work ethic, the sleep in your car test -- those people who will sleep in their car to get what they want in life. you can learn those skills really quickly if you have that drive. we help prepare our participants with this boot camp, we help them build a personal web site, some specific skills that will be valuable and then we place them in a paid apprenticeship. there's a curriculum along with practice and a whole community. it is really about a mindset. nobody's going to give me anything, nobody is going to give me a job or job security. i have to create that for myself. whether or not i actually start a business, i have to think entrepreneurial. there's more opportunity out

there today but people just see fear, they don't see it. they are looking for some guarantee. they don't have to sink themselves into debt. >> tucker: we are putting the explanation of your company on our web site. if five i have kids, and they t thinking about college, if you look at the web site they could maybe get a job? >> what we are looking for is that drive, ambition, if you get in, once you are placed in an apprenticeship you are getting a job at the end of the program. that is why we screen for quality people but we are there to coach and help. our advisors work with participants throughout to guarantee they will succeed in those roles. the businesses we work with? they love us. >> tucker: i bet they do.

out of the country of 300 million people, someone is thinking for himself. in an original way. >> it seems so obvious. it's a concept of learning by working with people who are doing. but yet we have a bizarre mentality for people who are paying tons of money to come out of the real world. being taught by people who have never really worked in the business world. it's kind of backwards. the idea of america itself -- we are a country of hustlers, grinders, innovators. crazy people who are not -- that mindset kind of gets beat out of you. we are saying hey, get out of the classroom and we will put you into a business. learn to get your feet wet. >> tucker: i will have to stop this interview because i will start sucking up to you in an embarrassing way because i love this so much. i love every part of it. thank you for that.

i appreciate it. >> absolutely. >> tucker: did the mayor of an american town on the mexican border, 140 million ball gallof mexico mierda. and didn't bother telling anybody in america for 17 days. the international boundary and water committee will look into this spill. mexico sends us its raw sewage, but it is not getting it back. we will talk to one reporter who says the press is deliberately letting members of the previous white house sabotage the new one. we will hear what he means.

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>> tucker: has a deborah's truck you that trump scandals come out like clockwork? did it out going obama agency has -- thank you for coming on. you are saying that there is a method to all this, all these revelations about contact with the russian government, et cetera. this is in effect, orchestrated? >> wednesday night was particularly frenzied. one after another. all of these stories having the former official, former

ubiquitous president. all of them are alleging that this administration is doing something that we didn't do, this is certainly not how we function -- i'm not so sure it's destabilizing or rehabilitating the white house, left with a cloud hanging over it. >> tucker: here's what we do know the former administration did, we know that the obama administration spied upon and wiretapped michael flynn as a private citizen in a conversation with foreign officials and link that to the press. i don't think that's legal but that is a scandal because you should be spying on your political opponents. >> it's being covered in "the new york times" but the context is that the obama administration left a trail of breadcrumbs. if anybody wanted to look into this information, a lot of it was -- the classification was

reduced, they just allowed people to see information that they did not want to see. what you are referring to his transcripts that were apparently taken of calls that were intercepted to the russian officials. that's apparently standard but the fact that they were transcribed and relayed to reporters is far from it. it's being protected as noble and virtuous. i'm not making a judgment on the information. but it is not normal. it is unique. >> tucker: or maybe it is normal. to use it against your political opponents is overwhelming. now it appears to be happening here. >> that is what is disturbing about this sort of thing. what we know about the flint situation is that this information came from likely formed administration officials and thought it was very sensitive. how did they get their hands on it and why did they relate to the press?

it is presented as such that this administration is very deeply concerned, the last administration is concerned about the allegiances of this current administration. that's fine but we are also not investigating the fact that this last administration was -- for not responding as forcefully as they should have to the russian attacks or the russian hacks brother. the fact that there is a career element to this probably deserves a little more's brittany. >> tucker: if these are connected, where do you expect it to go from here? we are seeing the next wave right now with regards to the attorney general sessions. he did himself no favors by being as clear as he could of inserted testimonies but the information we received again on this wednesday night, a flurry of information, that "new york times" report about the breadcrumbs trail included information about former senator sessions contacts with

russian officials. all of this came from sources that were not unattributed but who are talking very freely to the press. i expect to see a lot more of that and frankly this administration probably should get ahead of some of these stories if they want to blunt the momentum. >> tucker: i always thought people who talked about the deep state were conspiracy nuts. i don't think that as much anymore. coming up next, a gruesome case of the news abuse. the press had a horrible time fact-checking the president's speech to congress on tuesday night. we will see what they came up with. it's pretty good. ♪ don't let the food you eat during the day haunt you at night. nexium 24hr... shuts down your stomach's active acid pumps... to stop the burn of frequent heartburn... all day and night.

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>> tucker: it is time now for news abuse fact-checker each edition. the press flailed in its attempt to fact-check trumps joint address to congress. he said 94 million americans are out of the labor force. pretty straightforward line. it turned out to be completely

accurate but nbc news call that a lie claiming, the figure adds jobless americans with those who are not out of work for choice. the true statement form pinocchio, the worst of all. check ably true. trying with trends trump one on to say obama premiums nationwide had increased by double and triple digits. "the new york times" called this cherry picked even though an average of double digit number. we have invited many of these fact-checkers onto the show but none have had the stones to take us up on that offer. we are still waiting. that is it for us tonight.

tune in every night to the show that is the sworn enemy of lying, smugness, pomposity, groupthink and pointless cold wars. tune into "hannity," next. >> sean: welcome to "hannity," we are broadcasting from the george w. bush center in texas, the full hour, our 43rd president will join us. we will also be joined by the heroes featured in his book, "portraits of courage." mr. president, how are you? >> good to be back with you. >> sean: i've gone through part of your museum. i am stunned, shocked, i do not know how to describe it. you've only been painting f