they are. we'll see you back here in an hour. >> jon: "outnumbered" starts right now. >> sandra: another big hearing on capitol hill today where nsa director michael rogers is testifying in the unmasking of u.s. in essence caught up in foreign surveillance ahead of the 2015 election. this, a day after two former top obama administration officials said they didn't know who revealed general michael flynn's name and leaked it to the media. this is "outnumbered," i'm sandra smith. here today, harris faulkner, meghan mccain, julie banderas and today's a #oneluckyguy, former congressman, retired army lieutenant colonel and director of the center for policy and analysis, we will come back to the couch, carl and colonel al. >> allen: you guys are in a great business right now. every day you wake up and

there's something new. >> sandra: help us get through it. we've been following today's hearing where nsa director, michael rogers is testifying on america's cyber abilities to meet foreign hackers. he was also pressed on who may have leaked michael flynn's name to the media. >> somebody took that information that we gained through collection with flynn and gave it to "the washington post." >> somehow got to the media, that's clear. that's a leak and that is illegal. >> are you concerned about people taking the law into their own hands? >> yes, which is why i'm going to my my workforce in writing and said is make sure we understand with their professional ethos of our organization is. we do not engage in this behavior and if i catch you engaging this behavior, i will hold you criminally liable and you have no place here. >> sandra: has testimony comes less than 24 hours after sally

yates and ames clapper said they didn't know who unmasked michael flynn's name and leaked his conversation with the russian ambassador to "the washington post." they do admit viewing information and sharing it with others. watch. >> have either of you ever been an anonymous source in a news report about matters relating to mr. trump and his associates or russia's attempt to metal in the election? >> no. >> absolutely not. >> have either of you shared information about trump associates are members of congress with anyone else? >> i could have discussed it with either my deputy. >> had discussions with other members of the intel community. >> sandra: the american people have a lot of questions, a lot of concerns about what you're learning here. where do you see this going? >> allen: you have to be absolutely incredulous for these

people just sit here and say no, we have no idea. this is the exact same james clapper who we all remember when he was asked, he said we were doing things not knowingly. we came to find out that was not the truth. this is one of the big concerns the american people have in the whole patriot act thing. in the wrong hands, the government will be out there, listening to you and uncovering your names and doing things. i'm being very honest. i had conversations with michael flynn after the election was one. i'm wondering, have i been one of these people that have been unmasked? you have to wonder. this is why there's such a lack of trust in our government right

now. this whole big brother thing that's going on, we feel that we don't have any defense. >> sandra: perhaps the only thing that will make the american people feel better as getting answers to these questions, but also seeing someone held accountable. >> julie: my greatest concern is what was the motivation? unmasking names requested by government officials, unmasking for political purposes, that's illegal. this sets a terrible precedent. that's the greatest concern her here. lindsey graham had said, he doesn't understand how james clapper could be unaware. how is that possible? it doesn't add up. i feel that there is a political conspiracy here. >> allen: absolutely. the fact that twos and rice to go and testify before the people, that's what these represent nurse are. they ask these tough questions.

what was the business of her to be a part of this unmasking? we know that she was caught in a lie. >> harris: my big concern also has to do with how many people are on the list of who can see what's becoming unmasked. that seems like a broad list. that seems like a list that has people who might be more politicians than leadership or lawmaker. is that just might take? >> allen: no, you should be very concerned about that. the thing about the national security advisor, that's a person who is appointed by the president, they don't have to go through senate confirmation. in some way, that's a political position and the only person who can really give them direction as the president of the united states of america. >> sandra: >> meghan: every timh one of these hearings with james clapper, sally yates, where six months into this and i went for a big revelation. at this point, i feel like i'm looking for the loch ness

monster. it gets more and more confusing and it seems more and more criticized on both sides. if, in fact, they used our national security for political purposes, it is a bigger scandal than watergate. the problem right now is there's a lot of dancing on both sides and it's very frustrating to sit through these things and watch it and feel like nobody is actually telling the truth. sally yates, if michael flynn were this big of a problem and you thought he was this dangerous, why do you continue to have national security clearance in the obama administration and why didn't you warn the next demonstration harder? i have many problems with michael flynn, i think he is an opportunist and he made very stupid mistakes. do i think he is a russian spy? no, i do not. at this point, we would have had more evidence. i would like susan rice to come down, testify, tell us what she actually knows so at some point, i can get some real revelations.

>> harris: which you be willing to do that behind closed doors? the pushback is that she will say it's classified. i'm fine with that, as long as somebody actually knows with the facts are for susan rice. i think that's the goal. it's not a venue. >> allen: it should be the goal. there's a saying to himself, never do something that you don't want people to see in public. >> sandra: james clapper says he still has not seen any evidence of collusion between the trump campaign and russia. he and sally yates testified before a senate judiciary subcommittee yesterday. klapper telling lawmakers that he stands by his previous comments. >> does intelligence exist that can definitely answer the following question? whether there were improper contacts between the trump campaign and russian officials? you said, we did not include any evidence the report.

they did not have any reflection of collusion between members of the trump campaign and the russians. is that so accurate? >> sandra: he did claim he was unaware until fbi director james comey announced at a house hearing in march. meantime, when yates was asked the same question, she declined to answer. >> miss yates, do you have any evidence, are you aware of any evidence that suggests that in 2016 campaign, anybody in the trump campaign polluted with the russian government in a improper fashion? >> senator, my answer to that question will reveal classified information, so i can answer that. >> sandra: president trump tweeting this after the hearing. "the russian trunk collusion

story is a total hoax. when will this tax paid or charade end?" >> allen: it's the same as she said. it is not just the loch ness monster, it's bigfoot. there are some serious things that these people need to be looking at. politico just had a report out a couple of weeks ago about the obama administration who had secret dealings with this north korean -- iranian deal. we actually allowed 14 individuals who were under indictment for leaking secrets from the united states over to iran. nothing about that. what is happening with those pakistani brothers who were getting paid close to $200,000, those i.t. specialists that were on the house select committee? we keep chasing the windmills. we have some real security

breaches. >> harris: north korea is getting together more militarily with iran. i think it's interesting, not saying he knows more than he is saying at this point, but i do find it interesting that james comey's name always comes up as just announcing an investigation, a man who says he doesn't want to get involved politically. in your intro, you said, james comey announced an investigatio investigation. >> meghan: he has given us reason time and time again not to trust him. i don't know if this is world knowledge, but he is in interviews where he's talking about how he is on twitter and instagram. excuse me if i don't think of someone at your level needs to be on social media sharing anything. i would love to hear him give interviews, he's way too public a figure. on both sides, he is so highly politicized.

every time he launches an investigation, you have reason not to believe him. >> sandra: you have clapper saying there's no evidence of collusion at this point. does this settle things? >> julie: no, it doesn't. this is going to go on until probably christmas of 2017 and 22018 unfortunately. i had to tell you, but you'll be talking about this for a while. when it comes to this investigation, when you're talking about classified leaked information, not on classified, classified, that is a big deal. why james comey, the director of the fbi is revealing this information with the public and yes, of course, cap or should have known of this investigation was ongoing, but classified information from huma abedin's computer going to anthony weiner, that's a whole other thing. that's illegal. that's a crime, that should be prosecuted. >> harris: and listening to you, something popped into my head and that is we are so convoluted now in the weeds on all of this, that we do want the

american public to miss what's at stake here. colonel, telus. >> allen: us the whole point, when you create this confusion, people give up and say i don't get it. i had a top-secret clearance. it was clear that you do now have plasma and information. how is it that all these people, can do all these things and there's no accountability? that's one thing people out there and the public world, they're tired of it. >> harris: they voted. >> meghan: someone has to take responsibility in this. buzzfeed printing that dossier, confusing people. the media continues to report things that aren't false, but completely factually inaccurate. the man who put that together says he hasn't completely vetted everything. to report that is news, depending on which prism you're seeing this through as politicized at this point.

>> harris: we know that when names come up, we have a conversation in newsrooms across america about what will or will not be revealed. that's not top-secret information that national security is dependent on. now you're talking about a whole other level. what's the journalistic pathos on that? >> sandra: the story is not over. the stunning testimony from one of those former obama administration officials raising new questions over whether former hillary clinton aides to make age should face charges. plus, he's back. former president obama returning to the public spotlight. what a help or hurt democrats still reeling from the 2016 election loss? we debate. after the show, of course, you may join our live chat by clicking the overtime tab at foxnews.com/outnumbered your go

to facebook.com/outnumbered fnc. you can watch it all and of course, you can also tweet us during the show. colonel west, are you on your phone? we're jumping on. and i know that we have accident forgiveness. so the incredibly minor accident that i had tonight- four weeks without the car. okay, yup. good night. with accident forgiveness your rates won't go up just because of an accident. switching to allstate is worth it. at angie's list, we believe there are certain things you can count on, like what goes down doesn't always come back up. [ toilet flushes ] so when you need a plumber, you can count on us to help you find the right person for the job. discover all the ways we can help at angie's list.

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>> harris: is former president obama steps back into the spotlight, he is finding his new role in the era of president trump. on sunday, you may have heard that he urged congress to save the affordable care act. today the president spoke in milan, italy, about boosting the next generation of activists. >> you notice i have a lot of gray hair now. people always ask me, mr. president, we need you and we want you involved. i'm happy to get involved, but the greatest thing i can give is to make sure that somebody who is 20 years old, 21, 25, who are ready to make their mark on the world, that i can help them take it to the next level. >> harris: the press is reporting obama is emerging for a series of paid and unpaid speeches, drawing sharp

contrasts. he's overseas offering support for some candidates who areclam. his aides are engaging in real-time potable combat with trump. didn't valerie jarrett move into the house? it's a nerve central thing. grown people living together, i don't get involved with it. colonel, i have to say, with all of this, why does he need to define a role in a party that just lost 1,000 house -- >> allen: he's sucking the oxygen out of the democratic party. when you have obama running around out there, you have could hillary clinton running around out there, now you have elizabeth warren and bernie sanders saying will you clear the deck so we can get on? the more that he is out there, the more that he has to remind

people of why they lost those. he's going to remind people of the failure. >> julie: or he might be remind people that there is no other democrat out there. hillary clinton is probably wanting to kick him right now saying can i have a little bit of the spotlight? she's out there and she has activists that are leading all of these protests against donald trump. she apparently has been behind that too. >> sandra: she is blaming james comey for her loss. you're saying that elizabeth warren and bernie sanders out there saying clear the way for the newcomers, but the democratic party really has failed to tell us who that is. who's coming through? >> harris: hold on one second. eric scholz had this to say. it's a great question.

he's acutely aware of what the former president speak, he consumes a lot of the oxygen, which is what you are saying, he wants to make sure we make room for the next generation of leaders. >> allen: he's not growing them. when you're losing all of these seats, you're losing house and senate seats, you're not growing the next generation of leadership. the other thing that i read about is he's going to go and stand there with angela merkel. that's the last thing we need. this is very confusing. >> harris: there just isn't another president behind the democratic party who is willing to slow down the news. >> meghan: i'm a betting woman, i like to gamble. i said right after the election that president obama was going to be our most bitter modern day president ever. i got a lot of heat. i've already been proven right.

he can't handle the idea of anyone coming up behind him. elizabeth warren came out for hitting him hard. he can't take it, he can take anyone being a bigger celebrity than him. i don't know if he wants new leadership to come up in the democratic party because then it's a bigger example of how his legacy is pretty much unraveling at this point. right now, the democratic party is morphing in the image of bernie sanders and elizabeth warren which is on his image. can you imagine, i may post everything president, except you ushered in the presidency of a phenomenon from the likes we've never seen. and also by the way, you are party are more socialist than they are democrats. >> harris: an opportunity for republicans. >> julie: he's handing over the next election to republicans because he is not in the

running. he need to be nurturing and lifting up the next superstar. >> harris: this is where you say sometimes the g.o.p. falls down. they can reach out to the people in the gap. speed the democrats need no other reason to not hitch their wagon to the obama legacy. everyone he endorses loses unless apparently you are in france. >> julie: elizabeth warren and bernie sanders, you're not the next superstar. >> harris: this also raised some serious questions. hillary clinton aide, huma abedin's handling of classified documents. one former intelligence director james clapper said about her decision to forward clinton's emails to her husband. in the people who founded the women's march movement now whipping up a list of anti-trump demands from congress. what this pledge is asking for is against thousands of signatures. are these liberal demands out of

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>> meghan: something else that caught our eye at yesterday's hearing. the former dni chief indicating that huma abedin's decision to forward emails from her boss to her husband may be an offense that could be a possible crime. while clapper never specifically talked about the two, ten crews asked him about a hypothetical that fit the case. >> what would you do at the dni if you discovered that an employee of yours had forwarded hundreds or even thousands of emails to a nongovernment individual, their spouse, and a nongovernment computer? >> well, if i were aware of it,

i would certainly make known to the appropriate officials that that was going on. what of the transgression was, if there were sufficient evidence of a compromise, we would file a crime report. >> meghan: i have two questions for you. one, what's the holdup? number two, at what point will the clintons be held accountable in held by the same laws? >> allen: the holdup is that this is without a doubt a criminal offense. because we continue to have this us versus them, this political elite who can do whatever they want to do and fly in the face of all reality and the rule of law when it comes to handling classified material is beyond me. not too far away from where we sit right now is staten island. united states marine corps

brought someone up on charges and they were going to kick them out of the marine corps because he sent an email over a nonclassified means to warn the marines about an afghan police chief on an operating base. the marine corps did nothing about the information he was trying to warn them about. it resulted in the marines losing their lives. here was a marine trying to protect other marines on the combat zone in the marines went after him for sharing the classified information. we have hillary clinton with this private email server, and nothing happens. this is a discussed that we have in this country. furthermore, the example that it shows to the men and women of uniform, what message are we sending? >> harris: all people are listening closely to that example.

i think we sometimes lose the headline and all of this and that is a great example. with huma abedin, we can talk about it, you can joke about it, we can talk about the tawdry nature of it, but the fact of the matter is, her husband was completely probable. that's a problem for me. it isn't so much that she couldn't see beyond the point of being so busy that she could upload things. love is love, my point is, he was hooking up with whom? online? people knew that he was doing this. he is completely probable. they may have information that's classified. >> meghan: the question remains, if huma abedin weren't someone who was a darling of the left-wing media, especially in fashion circles. for whatever reason, hillary clinton is immune to

living by the same laws of the rest of us do. >> sandra: we had some on this couch last week who ask the question, where these emails retroactively classified? we all said, are we still in that conversation? i was going to say, cruz went on in a back-and-forth to say should this kind of situation be prosecuted? clapper responded, it's difficult to do that. we know that the obama administration on multiple occasions prosecuted many people for leaking information. when he said it's difficult to do that, to what is he referring? >> julie: why would it be difficult? you're saying is difficult to do due diligence and follow law enforcement and protocol? when a criminal is accused of a crime, you investigate if you find any evidence, you then convict. you go to trial and then there is a conviction where your set free. there is no conviction here. there was no accusation. as far as the hundreds of thousands of emails that turn into a handful, that concerns me that the fbi messed that up.

then it comes down to its a handful. the handful came down to huma abedin basically using her blackberry. i think that those are almost gone. plugging her blackberry into anthony weiner's laptop. how do you do that? you work for hillary clinton who was already under fire for sharing classified documents and then you're going to hand it over. >> harris: only one word pops into my head, entitlement. >> meghan: while he was sending explicit images to underage girls online, think about national security secrets. >> harris: brought to you by the organizers of the women's march, more than 80,000 people have now signed the so-called pledge of liberation asking congress to reject some policies. they are moving forward with an anti-trump activism document organizing the women's march the day after trump's inauguration. the pledge has a list of demands

and they include raising the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour, ending police violence, allowing all former prisoners to vote, open border immigration policies, open access to abortion and birth control, and taking away tax money that funds militarized law enforcement prisons and weapons. basically what they're saying is they want to see fewer people harmed, more people helped. they also want to end all war. we must work together to end war and live as family around the world. which members does this groupthink needs a hug? >> allen: first of all, you have to go back and see the organizer. if you look at her background, she supports three law. you can understand, this is a

laundry list of progressive socialist issues and policies that are completely antithetical to who we are as a constitutional republic. why are they making these demands? do these people work? why do they have all this time? we don't want to end wars by funding the military. good luck with that. >> harris: you are saying. it >> julie: all of this uncle biot. but you don't sing coupe with isis and you don't certainly disarm our military. they are protecting us. >> harris: you're concerned about what kind of influence these people have. >> julie: yes. young people are. these liberal groups do get into colleges and they get young americans that then breed a whole other scare.

>> meghan: do you vote in the last election, do you vote midterm elections? i think it's probably no. i'd like to ask those 80,000 women, do you vote? to have a voice in this country, you have to get out and not just sign random petitions. i'm at the mercy of their every whim. we voted for president trump and he is in office. his policies are completely dissimilar from this. as a tornado of stupid. >> sandra: at this is a list of questions you would ask her. how long have you sat on with the average american in this country and ask them what they're thinking and feeling? >> meghan: the problem is the modern women's march is that it's so wrapped up in the extreme left, not just on things like abortion, but apparently defining the military as well that a person like me, even though on paper, i consider myself a feminist, if that

includes defining the military, you know you can go. >> harris: jimmy kimmel is returning to the airwaves and jumping right back into the health care debate. whether any of this will change minds on the midterm election. we're still a waysy

>> sandra: jimmy kimmel diving right back into the health care debate. the committee in making his return to late night tv last night following a week off after delivering an emotional monologue informing the audience of his newborn sons heart disease. some criticize those remarks calling him an elitist. here's his response. >> i know this is going to shock you, there were some not so nice things people said online about me, including members of the media. this is from "the new york post." to make camels obscene

i would like to apologize for saying that children in america should have health care. it was insensitive. it was offensive and i hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me. >> sandra: it didn't stop there. he continued to discuss health care reform later in the show which bill cassidy. >> the jimmy kimmel test should be no family should be denied medical care, emergency or otherwise because i can afford it. cannot be the jimmy kimmel test? >> you're on the right track. we have failed to pay for it and that's the challenge. >> the way to pay for it is not give a huge tax cut to millionaires like me and instead help others. >> sandra: it seems like he's championing that. if republicans can make their message on health care as

similar as jimmy kimmel has been able to make his message and his opinion, they might be getting farther than they are right now. >> meghan: i'm worried about the narrative that republicans are letting people on the left take that we are somehow heartless and i would want a child with a heart condition to somehow die or not get medical care. the problem right now, his child had heart surgery, it was clearly emotional for him. i don't like entertainers getting political as a general rule. if you're going to do it, at least you're not making crude sexual jokes like stephen colbert is about our president. if this is the way he's going to do it, i found it respectful. "the washington times" headlines, they're making it worse. we need to have people come out on our side and explain. i feel bad for jimmy kimmel, but it's not working. the bottom line is so many people love obamacare, they're also being hurt financially in other ways. i'm always concerned when i see people in the right jumping because it makes us look like we

don't care about babies with heart conditions. >> harris: or talking about something that doesn't fall under their expertise. he went on to say don't give huge tax cuts to millions like me. it makes me wonder, do you know the effect that tax cut has? have you researched the way the economy works and what they can do? have you looked at both sides? >> allen: he cannot start dictating tax policy based on his own experience. also, if you look down, there's a box you can check and you can send additional money to the irs on your own, but you don't make the policy for everyone. we have the s chip program. no child goes about health care. we have medicaid and medicare, everyone is covered. the thing is, we have obamacare which is a gross expansion of medicaid, how do we pay for that? we're just not able to pay for those things.

i think we have to be very careful with these late-night comedians who all of a sudden believe that they can jump into the realm of policy. >> harris: it's interesting what you say. it's about time and place in the discussion that can really be had. people are looking at that and wanting some answers, it's unfortunate. kudos to mr. cassidy, because he was trying to have a back-and-forth. i don't think you can argue the particulars of which they are doing medicaid expansion and how we can get to phase three. >> allen: that's on the purpose of that show. >> harris: if you're going to go that deep, take a life jacket with you. >> meghan: when you're talking about the narrative on the left, specifically when it comes to repeal and replace, i've been very critical of this, they are winning right now. it is not the truth.

i referenced mary catherine hamm's piece. these are the stories we need to put front and center. instead of letting people on the left co-op things. i don't know enough about jimmy kimmel to know if he is knowledgeable enough. regarding a tax plan that we are mentioning, obviously, if he has to give all his money away, by all means. >> julie: i'm a problem using his platform to access his politics. as part of television and that's what i really talking about right now. if you look at jimmy kimmel and jimmy fallon, take a look at their ratings. jimmy kimmel, all he does is pot politics. it's working for him. jimmy fallon stays away from politics and it's hurting him. i do think it's very dangerous to put that kind of pressure on poor families, making them feel that if their child or teen heart surgery that they would somehow be left out because they don't have money. that's not a good message and that's not a clear message you want to send to america.

>> meghan: is also alive. when you say that is not factua factual. >> julie: if your child has a heart murmur, they're going to operate right away. >> meghan: people think that republicans want babies to die. it's an egregious manipulation. >> harris: because messaging from republicans, they've got the pulpit, use it. >> julie: after he had come out and said people are not going to die, that is kind of the message that the leftists sending out there. >> sandra: college campuses, so many of them hotbeds for liberal activism and clinical correctness. now one conservative group is fighting back, pumping big money into student government races. it is the right way to go and is the strategy actually working? usable musical

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>> meghan: college campuses become more tolerant about diverse opinions, a group is launching a turning usa, funding thousands of dollars into

campaigns. their group's founder points out that student government projects can run into the millions and student leaders have the pulpit to challenge certain causes. >> when you look at the democrats, they embody old-school corruption and who has been there the longest. we believe an opportunity for all and our party reflects that. we believe that a meritocracy and hard work can truly succeed. we work on college campuses across the country. the only way will take back the youth this country is to storm then and that is how we will make america great again. >> meghan: critics say the group is taken on the role of super pac for student governments. i mixed on this one. what do you make of this? >> allen: i understand what he is after. i'm on their college speaking series. i do about ten colleges. when he talked of these young

conservatives, they really have to work hard to sponsor activities. lots of times, they won't get the funding that is necessary. i understand what he's doing there, but i would like to see us get more conservative professors on these college campuses rather than go in and try to manipulate student government races. i understand the purpose behind it, i don't know if that's the right tactic. >> harris: or neutral professors. >> allen: i would like to see more colleges out there. >> harris: they have the hard work university there with everybody on campus. their values are being worked out. you've got some places around the country. >> allen: one of the things i would like to see, we have a lot of historical black colleges that are struggling right now. i would like to see going back to washington and establish a debate about entrepreneurship.

let's go back and have a college and university that focuses on a -- >> harris: there is no room for safe space there. >> sandra: at least with the story, you can look at it as they are fighting back somehow. your suggestion is more of conservative professors or neutrals, but they have to do something. is this the right step? >> meghan: i think this guy is doing great work. he is still active and he has a group behind him. hats off to you. i was definitely not a conservative at 23. i went to columbia university, as you get older, you get more and more conservative. when i want to college, part of the problem was i felt like conservatives didn't talk to me and i didn't understand the level that i do now how government is run and why the government is so dangerous and part of my mission has always

been to try and communicate to young people and speak their own language and for me, when i was 23, a guy in a suit with a super cut behind him, i probably would not have shown up to that. i think he does good work, but i do feel like on some level, i feel like i understand millennials to a degree, and i think we have to speak their language a little better. >> harris: on that topic of conversation, it's not welcome enough on college campuses that you would not have a lot of outreach. uc santa barbara, i dt see it on the campus. it was the quieted section. something had to make it that way. >> meghan: and i was younger, people like kennedy who is a libertarian on mtv news, i knew her politics, there are ways to communicate that is effective. she had a big impact on me. it is possible.

>> allen: i just spoke at santa barbara. >> harris: i know, i heard. >> meghan: more "outnumbered" in just a minute.

>> many thanks to colonel allen west, always good to have you here. >> i appreciate your having me. >> people love you, they jumped on the live chat, colonel west? speaker did i mention that harris gets excited about this part? >> i do, i am.

no holds barred, so join us. >> when you logon come you can ask colonel west questions, engage in conversation, ran over to "outnumbered" overtime on the web, "happening now" starts right now. >> jon: fox news alert on breaking news out of washington state, word of a tunnel collapse forcing an emergency declaration at a washington state nuclear site, no radiation has been detected, it happened about an hour and a half ago, that the u.s. department of energy activated the hanford emergency operation center at 8:26 a.m. pacific time after an alert was declared at the 200 east area. there is concern about some of the soil covering railroad tunnels near a former chemical processing facility. those tunnels contain contaminated materials. we will continue to keep our eye on this, let you know more as we get it