that's all the time we have left this evening. as always, thank you for being with us. this show will always be fair and balanced. have a great weekend. we'll see you back here on monday. >>well, good evening and welcome to tucker carlson tonight. michael caputo. >> he will join us in just a few minutes for a debrief in what he saw in congress today. jeff sessions gave a speech to a group of christian lawyers.

and that's pretty much what the attorney general talked about when he spoke to them. but that is not at all what the press reported. here's the headline from abc news. "jeff sessions approaches lgbt hate group." jeff sessions tells hate group doj will issue freedom guidance. in fact, the alliance defending freedom takes positions that are not so different from the ones barack obama ran on in 2008. how did this get branded a hate group? an organization that for decades has tried to shut down a legitimate debate. it has designated a hate group.

hardly the clan. but thanks to the southern poverty law center, they are now in the same category as the clan in news stories. but there's a bigger point at stake here is one of the most basic questions of all. who decide what we get to talk about? what should you be allowed to say in public? what should your kids be allowed to learn in schools? which ideas are legitimate and which are so dangerous we must suppress them? they think they're in charge of that decision. we disagree. we're pleased tonight to be joined by kristen waggoner. thank you for coming on tonight. >> thanks for having me. >> you all argue cases pretty are you routinely before the supreme court. >> well, we're not a hate group because what we do know is that americans deserve to have ethically sound reporting and

what they get from abc and nbc is journalistic malpractice. and we've litigated more cases than any other organization protecting the rights of free speech on campus for students. in fact, over 400 legal victories have been chalked up by us. why is abc and nbc willing to promote propaganda and cut and paste the press release into its story when the left and right have discredited this organization? >> calling you a hate group for having the same position as obama had in 2012, and you're a hate group for having a position similar to that. did you complain to abc and nbc over this

>>yes, we are complaining. it's nothing more than propaganda. and it's concerning that they would use southern poverty law center as a source when they have said they will -- they've put on their list veterans, catholics, and even u nuns have been put on this list. >> after all the stories that have run on the southern poverty law center, politico just had one, i wrote one 20 years ago, there's really no question what it is. it's a scam. but they are taken seriously by purported purportedly serious news

organization. why is that? >> americans are losing trust in the media for this very reason. so, again, it underscores the fact that these networks would use this as a source instead of using sources that the federal government has said are reliable and that the right and the left rely on. >> here's what i object to is the name calling. so obviously the reporters who wrote these stories disagree with your views. fine. but why not just explain what your views are and allow readers to come to their own conclusions rather than likening you to the clan of all things? >> if you look at our record, it speaks for itself. we've played a role in 52 cases. and these cases are not focused on anything other than protecting the rights of all americans no matter what their faith is, walk of life is, all americans to speak freely and

live consistent with their convictions. and that includes people that are with the southern poverty law center. >> exactly. it's one thing if someone disagrees with you, but to be called a member of a hate group is not something i want on my wikipedia page. your neighbors look it up and you're part of a hate group. there's a personal cost to that, isn't there? >> there is a cost to it. and that's why we're fighting back. and we want to make sure that we're engageing in civil discourse and not stooping to the level of splc with name calling. but we would challenge the media and anyone else to look at the record of these organizations. we're about representing people of all walks of life. we're a well-respected advocacy organization before the united states supreme court. and they are about putting million offense -- mill --

million offense dollars in an offshore account. >> thank you very much for that. >> thanks for your time. >> well, as of tonight, we'll bring you an update on the russia story. washington still consumeed by the supposed hacking of our election, a charge often repeated, rarely explained. today the hysteria continued. watch this. >> the attack on the integrity of our elections, the security of our country. the integrity of democracy is at state. >> thank you, leader pelosi, for organizing all of us today who have taken some action dealing with the trump family criminal enterprise. unveil the criminal activity, the unconstitutional activity of this president and his family. so i have dubbed them the

criminal clan a long time ago. >> i think what we're learning with the trump junior meeting is when you meet with any russians, you're meeting with russian intelligence and therefore president putin >> when you're meeting with any russians, you're meeting with president putin. that's the level of debate. he was at a closed-door house hearing not long ago and he joins us now with an update. thanks for coming on. >> before we start, i want to on congratulate you on the success of your show. i'm really happy to be here. >> there's a lot i don't know about this story and i'm sincere in want ing to learn more. what did you learn? >> this is a fishing expedition. they told us two hours. we went three and a half hours. they asked me about the same

people two and three times. they were looking at each other with quizzical looks on their face. >> what kind of questions did you get asked? >> did you know this person? all the different things you would expect. and they couldn't hear no enough times. the fact of the matter is i lived in russia 25 years ago. they're trying to ask me questions about 1994. >> so your wife got brought into this. >> yeah, jackie speier, the congresswoman mentioned my wife on live air. we started getting buried in threats >> what does your wife have to do with this? >> nothing. my wife became a citizen not one month before >> on what grounds? >> she was born in ukraine.

as you and i both know, if you're born in ukraine, that doesn't make you a fan of russia. but i want an apology of from jackie spears. >> there's a difficulty going on between the two countries right now. but if you drink vodka, you're game for these people >> so what happened when she mentioned your wife? >> we started getting terrible threats. i got a call on my phone and they said, "we know you're out of town. we're going to burn your house down with your wife and children in it." things have changed for my family dramatically. even though i've never heard anyone, least of all donald trump, even say russia. this is a fishing expedition. it's clearly designed to delay and stop the donald trump agenda >> so what role do you think russia did play, just as a citizen, in the 2016 election?

>> well, i believe that wi wikileaks was probably getting their materials in the past from russia. it doesn't take conclusion from the trump campaign from russian active measures to mess with our elections. we mess with our elections. the funny thing is i was sent in 1994 to russia by the clinton administration to get involved in their election. the reelection of boris yeltsin. he was a lion, but by the end of it he was a souse. >> yeah, a drunk for sure. so you think it's likely that the russian government was involved in the hacking. >> i think it's likely they were trying to get involved in the american elections because they get involved in all

elections of all major nations just like we do. i can tell you as a fact as someone who was sent to russia, all the major parties in russia were concerned. that irony is not lost on me. >> you were sent by the us government? >> by the clinton administration. >>do you think that the russian government preferred candidate trump over hillary? >> i know they didn't. hillary was their candidate. the reason why is they didn't like her. she was a problem for them. but she's predictable. trump was totally unpredictable. it's a russian standard that you go with predictable every single time. >> of course. it's absolutely a wise standard.

>> they were going to defeat her on every front because they did it for eight years of obama. >> you don't sound like much of a putin fan. >> well, i've got to tell you this. donald trump wants to have better relations with all nations. he wants to have relations with russia. but donald trump and putin -- >>so your friend was murdered you believe by the russians. how did you respond then when you saw a sitting member of congress, jackie speier of california refer to you as putin's image consultant? >> it was putin's responsibility for media freedom.

when she called me putin's image consultant, it was very clear to me she has poor interns. i don't make it my business to insult putin or anybody else around the world. she went after me and my wife on live television. and we've been enduring death threats and other threats ever since. >> what was the basis for that charge, that your putin's image -- do you know why she said that? >> she was trying to get on television. >> you've never doin' doen his hair and makeup ever? >> no. i've done his manicure of course. jackie speier does not deserve to be in congress. if she doesn't come back and apologize to my wife. she can say what she wants about

me. but as far as i'm concerned, you bring in family members, you bring in my wife who became a citizen less than a month before, she owes us an apology. >> especially as a ukrainian. that's bizarre. many on the left don't like the police. well, the surge in anti-police violence toned down the rhetoric from the left. probably not. in a minute, we'll be join by a writer who's written on the subject. i was really surprised that i wasn't finding all of these germans in my tree. i decided to have my dna tested through ancestry dna. the big surprise was we're not german at all. 52% of my dna comes from scotland and ireland. so, i traded in my lederhosen for a kilt.

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♪ ♪ >>well, the recent surge in anti-police rhetoric has been matched with a corresponding surge in anti-police violence. none of it has been enough to mute liberals. days after the shooting ran a piece entitled "america is suffering from a plague of deadly and unaccountable police violence." so i guess i have a more nuanced view of this. i think that there is behavior by police as there is by every sector of society. i guess what i disapproved of in your piece was the generalizati generalizations that you made

that police as a group are racist and violent. and i wonder how you reach that conclusion. >> well, i never said that police are racisracist. if you look at the numbers, they don't lie. this year over 500 people so far have been killed by police. so what i'm talking about is police violence that kills a lot of people and a lot of those people are unarmed or they don't pose a threat to officers. and those are alarmingly high numbers. i don't say that police are racist, but they can get violent very quickly. >> right. i don't want to contradict you because you seem sincere. i don't know if you can see, we've got the headline of your piece. "america is suffering from a playing of deadly,

unaccountable, and racist police violence." that seems like a generalization. i would agree with you completely. any shooting is too many shootings. but this is complicated stuff. and so dismiss it as your piece did as racist without proving that seemed unfair and not like journalism. >> if you look at the demographics of the people killed by police, a large number of them are black people. and in a lot of cases, 69% of black people shot and killed by police are unarmed and didn't pose a violent threat. it disproportionately affect it is black and brown communities. >> this is a complex matter. and there are much higher crime rates in those communities for -- who knows why, but there are. so that may be a factor in this.

but here are some numbers that i think show just how complicated this is. there was a study a couple of years ago. about 2700 police shootings between 2013 and 2015 found that the odds of a black suspect being killed by a black officer are greater than being killed by a white officer. it does show that racism isn't as simple in this context as you're making it sound. if a black suspect is more likely to be shot by a black cop, what does that tell us about racism? >> what that tells us is we have to look at the system. systemically, the way police officers are trained, they're taught to go for violence first. they don't tell police officers to resort to other means to subdue a subject other than

shooting and killing them. >> but hold on. right. whether nonlethal ought to be used first is a valid question. white officers statisticically less likely than black officers to kill black suspects. if all cops being taught to be racist, why are black cops more likely to shoot black suspects? >> you're looking at it individually. >> i'm looking at numbers. >> you have to look at it in a systemic way when you look at a system that allows these police officers to do this and don't get held accountable for it. you see these police officers getting off on killing another person. >> no, i get it. again, i don't want to be mean but you're maybe dodging the point a little bit. >> some of the issues you're

raising are valid. but to charge that racism is at the core of this without any evidence, because you don't have any evidence at all, makes people more fearful, makes them hate each other, makes our society way less happy and less trusting. and so it's a big deal to charge something like that. and don't you think you should pull back until you can prove it? i guess that's my point. >> i do think i do prove it in my piece. when you look at the statistics and data, police violence affects black and brown bodies. >> why are black cops more likely than white cops are? how does that fit? it doesn't make any sense. >> well, as police officers, they're part of the police system in this country that no matter what race you are, you still are taught the same tactics. >> but why are they more likely? again, i just want you to open your mind a little bit.

and just look at the facts and draw your conclusions from those. but it's not as simple as my professors told me it was. >> well, i think you're missing a point a little bit about my article and about the seriousness of police violence. >> i'm with you in some ways on that. just the race stuff is wrong. thanks for joining us. i appreciate it. atheists have long believed in their own open mindedness. you might call it an article of faith. but are they actually tolerant? this has been studied.

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wow. yea. hope you're fast. i am. get a portfolio that works for you now and as your needs change. investment management services from td ameritrade. >> tucker: take away small >>well, anyway take away small town park benches, they want god in trust taken off the currency. atheists think of themselves as open minded and inclusive. the reality accord to the study, they are actually less tolerant than religious people. thanks for coming on. >> thanks for having me. i'm glad to be here. >> so are you allowed to disagree with a study? this is science. so don't have you have to kind of nod and accept it? >> i'm certainly allowed to

disagree if i think the fundamental approach is flawed. and i think there is one question that can show you what is wrong with the fundamental approach to this study. are you close minded if you refuse to entertain fake news? and by that i mean a media-driven narrative by which nobody has provided any evidence. i would say no. >> interesting. flesh that out a little bit. how do you think this study is flawed on its most basic level? >> so, one of the things that the study classifies as closed-mindedness is a reluctance to come up with arguments against your particular position. so they ask you to take a position on three different questions. really odd questions that has to do with whether you think homes

should be pan be painted a light color, whether you think it benefits society to have homosexuals adopt children, a bunch of random questions. they ask you take a position and then they say come up with a bunch of arguments against a position that you took. and then they say that they want you to they will them whether you find that persuasive. so in order to be not closed-minded according to this study you have to come up away bunch of arguments against your view and you need to say that you find those arguments persuasive. it's not a situation in which you're presented with evidence against your view and you've refused that evidence. it's asking you to come up with the arguments. >> thank you for explaining that. i think it's more valid than before. can you put yourself in a

position with someone who disagrees with you and can you mount a valid or reasonable argument against yourself and see its strengths. >> but in the study they would deem you closed-minded if you continued to find the arguments for your side more persuasive than the arguments for the other side. so i agree that it's very valuable in society and in fact i think one of the reasons that a lot of the violence is breaking out on campus for example is the inability of people to understand arguments against their own view. >> exactly, i agree with that. >> and there's been studies saying that they don't teach critical thinking and everything. critical thinking, the ability to think about arguments against your view is good. but then to be asked to evaluate those as persuasive and to say that if you don't think those are persuasive makes you

closed-minded, i don't think that's valid. >> i disagree with you but i think you're making a smart point. but how about just the reality we see every day? i don't notice christian groups suing to shut down atheist groups because they don't. >> i'm not saying that there are not militant atheists. there are militant atheists. i don't happen to be one of them. and we can talk about why assist atheists becomethi think more in the united states. but in this particular study, they're saying that you are closed-minded if you, having taken a certain position and finding that the most persuasive position, then don't find persuasive the opposite view. and that doesn't seem fair. there's one other aspect of the study that --

>>if you're a sincere christian -- and most don't live up to this, and this is the ideal, you are commanded to love those who persecute you, people who are actually trying to hurt you. there is no such requirement of course in atheism. so who's a more open-minded person, the person actively seek ing to love someone who hates them or the person who's not? >> two critiques of the study. one is that it defines closed mindedness in such a way that atheists are going to automatically come out as closed minded. and it's because of this issue of having to come up with arguments against your view when you don't believe there's any evidence against your view. so there's that. and the second issue is that it evaluates you according to your

willingness to integrate contradictions into your own thinking. it's part of the basic laws of logic. on that standpoint, i would say, yes, atheists are probably more likely to follow the basic laws of logic. >> i don't believe that. i will say -- i have to admit you seem like a pretty logical atheists. >> i am. i've been a lifelong atheist. >> i hope you switch because it's depressing in the end. >> linda sarsour has insulted victims of female mutilation. she is the most reasonable muslim they can find? come on now. more on that next. plus a new feature on tonight's show, news quiz.

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tuck tucker one of the big winners in >>one of the big winners in this brave new political environment is linda sarsour. she's a left-wing activist and now the face of the deck -- democrats in america. >> i will respect the presidency, but i will not respect this president. our number one and top priority is to protect and defend our community. it is not to assimilate and to please any other people in authority. i hope that when we stand up to those that we are struggling against tyrants and rulers here in these united states of america where you have white

supremists in the white house. >> why can't democrats find a muslim mascot who is not a total extremis extremist? they could if they tried. who is she, and is it fair to call her an extremisextremist? >> yes, absolutely. sarsour makes muslims in the middle east look moderate. she is an extremist in the fact that she believes in sharia law. she recently used the word jihad to explain her inner war with the president. and she's certainly outside of the mainstream of american ideals and i would even say the average american muslim's ideal.

that seems like it would set her at odds with mainstream feminists. how does that work? how are feminists for sharia law? >> leftist feminist definitely have a difficult balancing act to play here. i think they like having a token minority and when she starts speaking about sharia law, they turn off their ears. and, well, just don't listen to what it actually means to live in a country that has sharia law. >> yeah. it seems like most feminists would be -- >>is it fair to say that she has ties to mainstream democratic politicians. >> absolutely. not a single mainstream

democratic politician has denounced her. she was at the front of the so-called woman's march after trump was inaugurated. and she's certainly been embraced by mainstream democrats. this is not a fringe figure, even though her beliefs are certainly fringe. >> where is she on israel? >> not a fan. i would be surprised if she believes israel doesn't have the right to exist. >> does nobody say anything about this? 18 months ago, somebody like this would get some pushback in the democratic party. >> everybody that would has been driven outside of the party. they have a hard time losing elections. now, what i don't understand is there are millions of muslim americans in this country who

are good people, people who don't preach sharia law. and i don't understand why democrats don't talk to one of these people to talk about islam. >> you would think. yeah, they've gotten extreme. thanks for that. >> thanks, tucker. >> up next, are you smarter than a news reporter? that sounds like a rhetorical question and an obvious one. of course you are. our final exam. fox news's peter doocy and elizabeth prann get quizzed on this week's top news stories. stay tuned. if you have moderate to severe psoriasis, you can embrace the chance of completely clear skin with taltz. taltz is proven to give you a chance at completely clear skin. with taltz, up to 90% of patients had a significant improvement of their psoriasis plaques. in fact, 4 out of 10 even achieved completely clear skin.

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>>time now for final exam. it's our weekly news quiz. actually, tonight is the first time we're doing it.

we're going to ask questions about this week's current events and find out how much they know. joining us, our very first contestants, fox news' elizabeth prann and peter doocy. we think it's going to work. >> this is my nightmare. if i get one. >> i think you're going to do great. here are the rules. i'm going to ask the questions. the first one of you to buzz in get to answer that question. if you get a right, you get a point. if you get it wrong, you lose a point. best of five. state officials in nevada this week announced a state of emergency when stores there sold out of what? elizabeth >> pot >> marijuana, weed. okay. we're going to go to the tape and see if you're right. >> marijuana dispensaries are

running out of pot. the governor has declared a state of emergency. a surge in sale there is has left a lot of shelves empty. >> somebody watches special report. it was interesting. >> i'm not going to tell you why. >> you think there may have been so the chicanery behind the scenes. question two. this was a multiple-choice question. the olympic committee this week announced that the city of los angeles would soon host the summer games. when was the last time l.a. hosted the olympics? was it 1980, 1984, 1988? >> 1984. >> how do you know that? >> i feel like i've seen a sweatshirt. >> let's go to the tape. >> it was the l.a. summer games of '84 that electrified the country. the torch was lit at the l.a.

coliseum but it was carl lewis who set the world on fire. >> was that the one that bruce gen -- jenner was in? >> people pressured him not to accept the offer, but he felt like taking a pass on it would be un-american. who was that? >> peyton manning. >> i've had a chance to play with president bush before. if president obama or clinton asked me, i would be there in a heartbe heartbeat. i think it would have been almost un-american to have said no. >> only because of the espys, that's why i knew. >> question four. this week one of the largest

icebergs ever reported broke off from the antarctic peninsula. it was the size of what state? rhode island, maine, delaware. >> delaware. i think it's one of my old joe biden google alerts. >> a massive chunk of ice separating into the ocean said to be the size of delaware. >> peter doocy, ladies and gentlemen. it's 2 to 2. a technician working at a corpus christi bank had to rescued by the police after he locked himself inside what? >> the atm machine.

>> unbelievable. >> how did you know that? >> because that is the craziest story. people were going to the atm and this man was inside sending them notes that just said, "help, i'm inside the atm. help me out." i would think the thing was going to take my credit card and i would just leave. >> i would think it was an inside job. final exam, the first test, 3-2. peter, congratulations. >> thank you. >> so how did you do? there will be another final exam coming up friday. after this, republicans have run basically everything in washington for seven months. what have been the results? we've got an update on that coming up. ♪ my sweetheart's gone sayonara.

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>> jesse: hello, everyone. i'm jesse watters along with lisa boothe, juan williams, meghan mccain and greg gutfeld. it is 11:00 in new york city, and this is "the five". back in the usa after celebrating bastille day france. controversy continues to brew over his son's meeting with a russian lawyer last year. there are new details on that meeting. we have now learned there could have been at least eight people in the room. three possible new players, a russian american lobbyist, a friend of the russian pop star mentioned in an e-mail and possibly an interpreter.