show, the specialists. that's all the time we have left this evening. this show will always be fair and balanced. we are not the destroy-trump-media. thank god. see you back here tomorrow night. ♪ >> tucker: good evening and welcome to "tucker carlson tonight." for months you've watched a politicians and journalists assert with confidence that last november's election was in fact a sham. it was not a wake-up call to the political people. t it was not a cry for help from a crumbling american heartland. it certainly wasn't a sign that the ruling class is corrupt where the government was in need of reform. it was none of that. it was a fluke engineered by the russian government because they are evil and they hate our values. so far there has not been much proof that any of this actually happened or any proof at all, but we did learn tonight was that the president trump sat with vladimir putin at dinner, but in any case all of this

russian narrative has changed the rules here in washington maybe forever. the russians are now our chief enemy. americans who have contact with them, any contact at all are committing treason. that's the subtext. here it is expressly stated. this is congressman mike quigley, democrat from illinois explaining the new rules. >> what we're learning with the trump jr. meeting is when you meet with any russians, you are meeting with russian tiintelligence and therefore president putin. >> tucker: in other words, there is no innocent contact with russia. it doesn't exist. any meeting with any russian is a meeting with putin himself. okay. what does that mean for hillary clinton? in 2010, while she was secretary of state, she publicly put sanctions on the russian government. she publicly opposed them. at the very same time her husband bill clinton was paid half a million dollars to

deliver a speech in moscow to financial firms set to benefit from the removal of the sco sanctions his wife opposed.. bill clinton was even thanked later by vladimir putin for that speech. since we're doing the math, the clintons payday was ten times greater than what general michael flynn received for a speech in 2015. does that mean that bill clinton colluded ten times as much as general flynn colluded? maybe we'll find out at his treason trial presided over by maxine waters and the rest of washington's new red raiders. maybe michael hopkins will be there, too.o he's a democratic strategist. he joins us now. mr. hopkins, thanks for coming on. by the new standards, which i should just say in case our viewers are not detecting sarcasm in my voice, i think are appalling and stupid. but those are the standards. i don't make the rules. democratic members of congress do. and msnbc. any contact with russia is contact with vladimir putin himself and therefore treason.

what do you make ofwi hillary clinton and her contact with the russians? while she was secretary of state? >> i don't think it was problematic at all. let's look at this an honest way. it's not the contact itself that was problematic.it it's the fact that he lied. bill clinton gave a speech in moscow, that in and of itself isn't g illegal. it's the fact that michael flynn lied. bill clinton admitted that he gave that speech. hillary clinton -- >> tucker: i appreciate that, it was a game effort. but mike flynn lied to members of the administration who then told the truth toe the american public. >> and the security clearance -- >> tucker: that wass immediately rectified by the administration you think should be driven from office because they are contacting russia. >> it was only after he wasec confronted with lying. >> tucker: confronted by the w people he worked for in the trump administration. i'm not defending trump, i'm just saying that by the standards you've set up just a second ago, that doesn't make any sense.

let's get to the core of it, not who lied or who told the truthgo or who -- who did what. g the meetings with the russian government, in a public position against sanctions, evidence of disloyalty. that's what democrats are saying.s, >> that's not what they are saying. >> tucker: then what are they saying? >> she was secretary of state, and on multiple occurrences she met with the russian government. that in and of itself is not a crime. she was a public government official.li >> tucker: it's her job to do that. >> it becomes problematic when you have donald trump, jr., meeting with the russians, or paul manafort. >> tucker: any meeting with russians is in fact in betrayal of your country, but what -- >> that's not specifically what he said, but i get your point. >> tucker: i can read a quote. "meeting with russians is meeting with russian intelligence." and therefore, putin.

i think that's a verbatim quote. >> i think there were a few more words in there. democrats should be careful when they are talking about meeting with russians and aligning that with the crime. i'm a criminal defense attorney by nature, and crimes are very specific. >> tucker: how about this, an immoral act. that is a textbook definition of mccarthyism? guilt by association? you know someone who knows somebody else. >> this president has been pushing for at least the last 18 months this idea that we can demagogue all different kinds of groups and that that somehow makes it legitimate just by the action of our president --ha >> tucker: when the rankingju democrat in the house, nancy pelosi, makes that case. when maxine waters of los angeles makes the case, when mike quigley of illinois makes that case. somehow it's the trump administration's fault. okay. let's leave partisanship behind. i want to get to the core of the story. what do you make of that?. a sitting secretary of state is married to a man, himself a former president, who was soliciting money from foreignec governments with which the

united states has contentious relationship. would you have felt comfortable if donald rumsfeld's wife was taking money from foreign governments, or would you be happy now if the secretary ofin state rex tillerson's wife were taking money from russia? wouldn't you say that's a little over the top? >> let's make sure we get this right. bill clinton himself is not taking money from the russian a government. he gave a private speech in russia.. i will acknowledge what you saya i don't like the idea of politicians, whether they be democrats or rebulicans, giving speeches in russia. >> tucker: i don't either, and i didn't like what mike flynn did it. i guess you are conceding something that kind of blows up the entire story. >> how? >> tucker: not every person with cyrillic letters inki their name is a working for vladimir putin. >> when democrats have gone tod russia or given speeches inus

russia, had conversations with russians, we are honest. if republicans would stop lying. if paul manafort, donald trump, jr., would stop lying, then maybe we can create a situation where he wouldd have a reason to trust that there is honest discourse going on.io >> tucker: okay. okay. i mean, i'm not even going to contest bad. i think it's a silly point. >> that matters, though.th when you have the senior member of the campaign lying about meeting with russia. >> tucker: i'm less interested in the trump administration and much more interested in russia the country, which has a ton of nuclear weapons, and our relationship with them. i just want to establish, and we will end it quick, that it is okay as an american citizen, t a faithful american, to talk to russians and have opinions that may not be the same opinions ase the majority. you can be against sanctions as hillary was, you can meet with russians as her husbandth did. even with ties to vladimir putin. and thatt doesn't make you a disloyal american. is that what you're saying?

>> you can meet with them and have conversations, former president or secretary of state, as long as you are honest. we can't pretend that the trump administration has done that. >> tucker: what they've done is totally different. [laughs] >> they've lied. they've lied. they've broken federal codes twice. obstruction of justice, foreign donations, soliciting foreign donations, those are real things. >> tucker: it is groundhog's day on the show. i'm glad we got to that, michael, thanks for joining. for more on the clinton family's interaction with russia, big deal or not, we are joined by fox sentior political analyst brit hume. w brit, is this a big deal? >> we knew about this. i think it's fair to suggest that when this came out along with so much else about hillary and bill clinton in the way that they raised money, and all the problems of the clinton foundation that those things went into the mix of public opinion. the result was that hillary clinton lost the election. we can't draw a straight line,ar they fit -- but that was out there. it may have helped prevent her from becoming president. i think the fact that it was out there is probably a good thing,

obviously there wasn't a to do made about that at the time that there is about these russia t contacts. and it isn't just the fact that the trump team didn't come out and informed the country of all these things right away. that always creates a bad story and an appearance of something being covered up. but it's also as you pointed out, he or she is making policy decisions, and here he is being paid extravagantly by people who have an interest in those decisions. that is a conflict of interest. that is a howling conflict of interest.de and that was a point against her in the election. >> tucker: what do you make of the fact that this is being reported by "the washington post" tonight, that our president may haveh betrayed his country by sitting next to, in close physical proximity, vladimir putin himself at a multilateral dinner?

>> it's perfectly fine. what i object to at the time is the breathless and extravagant coverage that these events get. i find myself repeatedly -- that's interesting, but it's not that big a deal.ys time and time again that is my reaction. i think what we have is a story that has been interesting, worth reporting, worth investigating. but to date, hopelessly overblown. >> tucker: the second someone can explain what the crime is i will be really interested in this story. >> because they start talking about a cover up you have to have a cover-up, collusion -- >> tucker: i'm willing to believe anything. i don't work for thehe administration. they don't send me f money. if you tell me what the allegation -- >> obstruction of justice, as your previous guest said, we are a long way from being able to say that. >> tucker: one more thing. the republican-controlled senate apparently failed to repeal obamacare, and the president has signaled it's time to sit back and let that law fail on itso

own. here's what he said. >> i'm certainly disappointed. for seven years i've heard repeal and replace in congress, and i've been hearing it loud and strong, and when we finally have a chance to repeal and replace they don'tce take advantage of it. i think we are probably in that position where we will just let obamacare fail. we are not going to own it. i can tell you the republicans aren't going to own it. we'll let it fail and then the democrats will come to us and they will say how do we fix it, how do we fix it? >> i don't think that's a realistic scenario. if you have both the house andri the congress and the white house and your party has been elected on a promise to fix this law, this law which was so unpopular, and you don't do that, and the negative consequences of that law take full effect, that the idea they can escape responsibility is nuts. >> tucker: what would that look like?

that would require the white house and at the congress to sit back and watch. >> and watch the continuing collapse of choice in the exchanges. people unable to get -- premiums rising to astronomical levels, continuing growth in the copayments and minimums. and the thing unraveling. i don't think it's politically tenable, particularly if you have control of all parts of the government, to let that happen and pretend you can blame somebody else. >> tucker: someone else lit the house on fire. i am then letting it burn. >> the other thing is, who would blame?n people in charge in the past? seems to me they've already gotten blamed. they got turned out of power. their party got turned out of power, they lost control of first the house and then the senate. now these people can turn and say "look, this was their problem, we didn't fix itn' so don't blame us?" it doesn't work that way. and it won't. tucker, make no mistake about that. if they don't find a way

somehow, i don't know what it would be at the stage, to turn this around and get something t done on this, this will be a colossal failure, historic failure. the reasons that are being given by these members for not being able to vote for this, we have members of the senate now who are prepared to keep the vote to repeal obamacare from even coming to the floor. they are free to vote against it, but they want to block its consideration. these are people in some instances who voted for that very repeal within the last two years. i don't see how this is politically defensible. >> tucker: i don'tr either. brit humee. thanks.uc >> thanks, tucker. >> tucker: a minneapolis woman called the police to report a crime and somehow wound up dead herself, getting shot by a police officer. what happened? we've got some breaking news on that. we will tell you in a minute. plus, a man who murdered a u.s. soldier has become a multimillionaire courtesy of the trudeau government in canada. just ahead we will talk about a soldier who was gravely wounded while fighting that man. stay tuned.

what are all these different topped & loaded meals? it's an american favorite on top of an american favorite, alice. it's mozzarella sticks on top of grilled chicken. it's cajun shrimp on top of steak. it's labor day weekend on top of the fourth of july. hotdogs. it's abe lincoln on top of george washington. yonder. it's rodeos on top of rollercoasters. it's favorites on favorites, alice. it's very moving. get your favorites on top of your favorites. only at applebee's.

so you miss the big city? i don't miss much... definitely not the traffic. excuse me, doctor... the genomic data came in. thank you. you can do that kind of analysis? yeah, watson. i can quickly analyze millions of clinical and scientific reports to help you tailor treatment options for the patient's genomic profile. you can do that? even way out here? yes. even way out here. even way out here? when itrust the brandtburn, doctors trust. nexium 24hr is the number one choice of doctors and pharmacists for their own frequent heartburn. and all day, all night protection. when it comes to heartburn, trust nexium 24hr. hi..and i know that we have phonaccident forgiveness.gent, so the incredibly minor accident that i had tonight-

four weeks without the car. okay, yup. good night. with accident forgiveness your rates won't go up just because of an accident. switching to allstate is worth it. or a little internet machine? [ phone ringing ] hi mom. it makes you wonder...

shouldn't we get our phones and internet from the same company? that's why xfinity mobile comes with your internet. you get up to 5 lines of talk and text at no extra cost. [ laughing ] so all you pay for is data. see how much you can save. choose by the gig or unlimited. call or go to xfinitymobile.com introducing xfinity mobile. a new kind of network designed to save you money. >> tucker: this is a fox news alert, there's breaking news in the case of t sh>> tucker: this is a fox news alert, there's breaking news in the case of the australian woman shot to death by a police officer in minneapolis after calling 911 to report a crime. fox minneapolis reporter christina paladino joins us with details. christina. >> tucker, this is the alleyway here in southwest minneapolis where 40-year-old justine damond was shot and killed by a minneapolis police officer. she was shot just a few doors

down from her home on saturday night. we understand that damond was calling to report a possible assault happening in this alleyway. we just got an update from the state agency investigating. they tell us that the two officers were patrolling in their car with their lights offt when n damond came out of nowhee and startled both of them. we understand that 31-year-old officer mohamed noor was in the passenger seat, he is the one who shot damond in the abdomen. she died on scene. investigators say she did noton have a weapon on her. the body cameras on the police officers as well as their squad camera video were not turned on. damond had moved here from sydney, australia, to be with her fiance three years ago. she was set to marry him next month in hawaii. >> we've lost the dearest of people, and we are desperate for information. piecing together justine's last moment before the homicide would be a small comfort as we grievee

this tragedy. the death of justine is a loss to everyone who knew her. she touched so many people with her loving and generous heart. >>a noor has refused to be interviewed by state investigators.o the other officer has already sat down with detectives. he's been on the force for about two years but he is the first somali american police officer to be in this precinct, but he already has three citizen complaints filed against him. one was closeded without discipline, the other two remain open. and we are attending a press conference in the next few minutes to hear from the assistant chief, the mayor, and other council members as well. tucker. >> tucker: thank you,, christine, we appreciate it. there's a lot going on in this story. and a lot we don't know.

mohamed was an immigrant from somalia. is that a relevant fact? we don't know. but it's being treated as one by many news organizations. how do you know that? because they aren't reporting it. "the washington post" did a long piece on this shooting and made no mention of hisdi nationality, or his immigration status. theyey never even mentioned his name. they wrote an entire story about this and didn't mention the cop's name. why is that? we have a former nashville policefo officer here with us. mr. hill, thanks for coming on tonight. it seems odd -- a bunch of things seem odd to me, but maybe they are not. first, how common is it foree police officers to shoot someone through the door of a vehicle? >> tucker, thanks for having me on. it's very uncommon for a police officer to shoot outside of a vehicle from the inside. most departments forbid it. so i question what made this officer, officer noor, believe there is an eminent threat against either his life or his partner's life to shootnt three times inside the vehicle and

strike her. ms. damond. i really question that. >> tucker: the second notable fact that seems to me is the body cams and the dash cams.n at least three cameras present and none of them on. before, during, or after the shooting. why would that be? >> i don't want to speculate, there could be several reasons. of course, body cams in general are very new to most police departments across the country. i believe minneapolis has only been using body cams for about a year. so when officers are approaching a scene of a call, they have a lot that they are thinking about. it could be that the body cam was not one of those. i don't know why the dash cam, if it was available, wasn't on, becausef of course you're responding to a crime or report of a crime. at least the dash cam should have been on. >> tucker: i always give cops the benefit of the doubt, because it's a really hard job and a dangerous job. so maybe this isn't meaningful,

but you tell me what you think. this guy's been on the force for two years, three complaintsu against them. does that seem like a lot? >> for someone to have only been on for two years, it definitely seems like a lot. especially the last one i believe was this past may. here we are, just two months removed from that, and now a young lady is dead and it is very tragic. so i really question what those reports actually said. was it something that the department should've said, hey, maybe this officer isn't fit fon duty? you have to question that. >> tucker: you certainly do. there's a lot we don't know, and i can't stand it when people speculate irresponsibly. but since you've done this job, can you think of a scenario in which would happen, what we know happened, makes sense? >> i've thought about this all day, and the only thing i can speculate from an officer point of view is there was something that made that officer believe there was an imminent threat against his life. i think there's reports now that

there may have been a loud noise by the vehicle. there's reports that she startled these officers. but we have to take into account they receive the call that a female was being sexually assaulted, so common sense should kick in and say, it is possibly the victim, or is this the 911 caller. i know when i've answered 911 calls, i always wanted to speak to the caller to get their perspective and see if there is a suspect, to see if weay need to set up a perimeter. i don't understand what led this officer to believe, note only dd he have to take her life, but if you think about it, he put his partner's life in jeopardy by shooting across him. >> tucker: it's unbelievable. whatever he thought, he could not imagine this was the perpetrator in a sexual assault, you wouldn't think. vincent, thanks a lot. it was really helpful. >> thank you so much. >> tucker: canada has made a convicted terrorist a very rich man. will they ever spare a penny for his victims?

it's not an academic question. we are going to talk to sergeant morris, who was gravely wounded in the battle against omar khadr, a man who just received more than 10 million canadian dollars. stay tuned. and over-the-counter treatments, but my symptoms keep coming back. it turns out i have irritable bowel syndrome with diarrhea, or ibs-d. a condition that's really frustrating. that's why i talked to my doctor about viberzi... ...a different way to treat ibs-d. viberzi is a prescription medication you take every day that helps proactively manage both abdominal pain and diarrhea at the same time. so i can stay ahead of my symptoms. viberzi can cause new or worsening abdominal pain. do not take viberzi if you have no gallbladder, have pancreas or severe liver problems, problems with alcohol abuse, long-lasting or severe constipation, or a bowel or gallbladder blockage. pancreatitis may occur

and can lead to hospitalization and death. if you are taking viberzi, you should not take medicines that cause constipation. the most common side effects of viberzi include constipation, nausea, and abdominal pain. stay ahead of ibs-d with viberzi. if you could book a flight, then add a hotel, or car, or activity in one place and save, where would you go? ♪ expedia gives you the world in your hand, so you can see more of it. ♪ expedia. ♪ it's happening, it's happening! in the modern world, you can control just about anything with an app. your son is turning on all the lights again!

and with the esurance mobile app, you can do the same thing with your car insurance. like access your id card, file a claim, or manage your policy. it's so easy it's almost scary. let's get outta here! that's auto and home insurance for the modern world. esurance. an allstate company. click or call. ethat's the height ofs mount everest. because each day she chooses to take the stairs. at work, at home... even on the escalator. that can be hard on her lower body, so now she does it with dr. scholl's orthotics. clinically proven to relieve and prevent foot, knee or lower back pain, by reducing the shock and stress that travel up her body with every step she takes. so keep on climbing, sarah. you're killing it. dr. scholl's. born to move.

>> tucker: last night told you how canada's >> tucker: last night we told you how canada's government awarded $10 million to omar khadr -- after giving this man their money, justin trudeau

admitted that he didn't even bother calling the widow of christopher, the delta force medic who was murdered by khadr in 2002 in a grenade blast. meanwhile, he says everybody should move on and forget what he did. >> this is a time for reconciliation. hopefully not forgetting, but moving on and healing. i was angry, upset about what happened.t it's been hard finding jobs, school, because of my reputation. this is going to help me move forward. >> tucker: ten and a half million dollars from canadian taxpayers. that will help you move forward. one man who can't move on quite so easily or seamlessly is sergeant morris. he was blinded in one eye during the same firefight that killed christopher speer. sergeant morris joins us tonight. sergeant, thanks for coming on tonight. what do you make of this? what's your response to this?

>> i think i've said this before. what kind of sick and twisted ivory tower do you have to live in as a prime minister of canada to decide to award this man $10.5 million, good, hard-working canadian folks his dollars that somehow equals justice? it makes no sense. >> tucker: it doesn't, and it's more a statement about the decadence of the west than it is about the men who perpetrated this crime. it's almost a rhetorical question, but did the prime minister contact you about the settlement? a >> no, he did not. first i heard about it was when myo, phone started ringing from canada. former prime minister stephen harper contacted me to apologize on behalf of canadians in general, and the military folks up there.on i thought that was nice of him.w >> tucker: i don't think there's any evidence that most canadians agree with this or are for it. t at all. is that your sense?

>> it is. that makes perfect sense. i don't think you have to be canadian or american to say, okay, there's a guy out there who killed a u.s. soldier, and now you're going to give him $10.5 million because he had -- he was lonely at guantanamo. or he didn't have a shoulder to cry on. how that balances out as justice, it's just beyond me. and, obviously, canadians. i think that there's a poll that sayy 70%, 71% of canadians are outraged by this action. >> tucker: it's the definition of decadence. tell us about the day this happened. or don't. >> i don't have a problem talking about it. we were after omar khadr's father who was bin laden's financee guy. the compound, isolated compound we went to, his father was gone, omar was there with four or five other guys, we surrounded that

compound. myself and four other soldiers. we waited for 45 minutes and they wouldn't come out and talk to us. when we finally got the rest of my team there as well as some afghanser that we were working with, one of our interpreters when and to try to make contact. the guys inside that compound just popped up over a low rise inside the compound and executed them point blank, and threw hand grenades at the rest of us. we shot two or three of them at the gate, and as the others ran to the back of the compound throwing hand grenades as they went, i popped up to shoot a couple of guys with my rifle. got a .203 and a grenade launcher attached to the bottom, and as i pulled the trigger on the grenade launcher i felt something smack me in the right eye. it turns out a hand grenade they had thrown i hadn't seen went off and a piece of shrapnel hit me in the right eye. >> tucker: and that ended your service career?

>> it did. you know, i am a shooter. the military would've let me stay on as a trainer or something like that, but having to shoot left-handed, i'd be a liability on an a-team. and so i put in 21 years. i took my retirement, and got out. >> tucker: how bitter thisem must be for you. in addition to all of that, to watch the man who did it become rich, and apparently unrepentant. w i'm really sorry for you. >> well, it is. it's bitter to see a man who in the canadian government, in particular, not just remains neutral in the matter, they went out of theiric way -- mr. trudeu had to go out of his way to get omar this money, to cut short any negotiation, and just say let's give him $10.5 million, make sure we get thatia done before the americans have any chance of going after that money.

to protect this man. boy, that's really reopening a wound. i feel bad for chris speer, his wife, she is a great lady.y. it's gonna be tough for her to see the canadian government open that one. and i feel bad for canadian military. i served over there with those guys. they've got to be feeling pretty bad about their government rewarding a man who did his very best to kill them. >> tucker: i'm sure m trudeau did this as an expression of how hostility -- but he undermines his own society by doing it. sergeant morris, thanks for that. >> no problem. thanks for having me, tucker. >> tucker: appreciate it. an article on "huffington post" challenged us to an immigrationh debate, and of course we couldn't turn that down. up next, meet the challengers. stay tuned.

i go with anoro. ♪go your own way copd tries to say, "go this way." i say, "i'll go my own way" with anoro. ♪go your own way once-daily anoro contains two medicines called bronchodilators, that work together to significantly improve lung function all day and all night. anoro is not for asthma . it contains a type of medicine that increases risk of death in people with asthma. the risk is unknown in copd. anoro won't replace rescue inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be used more than once a day. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition, high blood pressure, glaucoma, prostate, bladder, or urinary problems. these may worsen with anoro. call your doctor if you have worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain while taking anoro. ask your doctor about anoro. ♪go your own way get your first prescription free at anoro.com. man: let's go! man #2: we're not coming out! man #1: [ sighs ]

flo: [ amplified ] i got this. guys, i know being a first-time homeowner is scary, but you don't have to do this. man #2: what if a tree falls on our garage? woman: what if a tornado rips off our roof? flo: you're covered. and you've bundled your home and auto insurance, so you're saving a ton. come on. you don't want to start your new life in a dirty old truck. man #3: hey. man #1: whoa, whoa. flo: sorry. woman: oh. flo: you're safe. you're safe now. woman: i think i'm gonna pass out. can you stop using the bullhorn? flo: i don't make the rules.

can you stop using the bullhorn? i recently discovered that a good source of protein. that's why they're my go-to snack while i get back in shape. that one's broken.

>> tucker: pablo manriquez is the cofounder at k street media here in washington. he wrote a piece for "huffington post." "why tucker carlson should debate me on immigration."r we didn't want to forfeit our honor by turning down such a gentlemanly challenge from such a gentleman.gr so we have picked up the gauntlet pablo threw down. the distance will be the width of the table. the weapons will bee words. pablo manriquez joins us. thanks for joining us. >> an honor to be here. >> tucker: i'm glad to have you. i stipulate this by saying that i'm totally for immigration and for immigrants. but i want to know what the parameters are. let me ask you a simple question. we've got 330 million people in the country. if immigration rates stay at the current level, 1.2 million per year, we're going to have about half a billion people by the end of the century. if we follow the u.n.'s lead we would have 1.5 billion people in america by the end of this century. those are estimates.

what do you think the right level of immigration is?os >> i think that the right level immigration has always been in this country, the level it is going to build the country and not detract from it. i think obviously, the immigration of the last severalf waves that come through, mostly from europe, obviously the chinese as well, help this country both infrastructurally, culturally, and in a lot of different ways. the current hispanic immigration wave, which has been so controversial politically lately, is having the sameth effect. we are going through the hunger throws, that cultural assimilation which i think is happening. >> tucker: i guess i would call your assumption into question.ch i don't think it's hispanic immigration that is controversial.t it' think we are seeing immigration from all over the world. it's a question of a lot of things.. with the economic effect, the cultural effect.gs what's the ideal level? let's be more specific than that. how many people should live in this country? if you had a country of half a

billion people, would be a better country than it is now or a worse country? >> not if it's not sustainable. i think that we currently have a level of immigration that in some ways isav merit-based, buts often not. we also have a lot of unaccounted for immigrants that our crossing the border. the levels of immigration specifically at 1.2 million, seemed to be -- it seems to be a number that has worked for us up to a point.mb when we up to a point were still building, the housing boom when there are still jobs to sustain them. that number at least in terms of border apprehension as we saw today -- >> tucker: this is legal immigration, so basically what you're proving is you have no idea, and neither does anybody else.e. people tell me that they are for more immigration, but to what level? > right. >> tucker: nobody has thought this through because they don't care. and they should care. >> in the global flow of toigration, they're going change things.

it's hard to say what the numbers should be now and into the future. and that something that people discuss -- >> tucker: let me flip it on its head. so the left-wing assumption, and this has changed a lot in the past ten years, but as of today it appears to be that it's racist to exclude anyone from the country whether you are here legally or illegally. >> that is an assumption. that's not fair. >> tucker: what are the limits? who should be able -- who should we be able to exclude, and on what basis? >> people who are a danger should be excluded first. thee president has done a good job of attracting that kind of enforcement first priority against people who aret criminal aliens or criminal immigrants or whatever you want to call them. i think the president has also said, and this often gets lost in the debate, that there should be exceptions and that deportation shouldn't necessarily be the only punishment for people come here illegally. is that fair? >> tucker: i disagree with it, but you wanted to come on and debate this.

debate me. tell me where i'm wrong. >> i think that if you think deportation is the only penalty that should be upheld for immigrants, i think that's wrong. that's never been the case in previous immigration waves. most of the time when we do have extraordinarily too harsh penalties, it becomes an embarrassment of history. i think we have within the trump administration a very robust conversation going on, and the turnkey of that conversation is general kelly. general kelly is obviously someone who knows a lot about the immigration situation, especially in central america when he was commanding -- >> tucker: and i don't doubt any of that. but let's to the principle here really quickly. what you're saying is we have laws in the books we should ignore. my question always is if you believe that, then why not make a sincere effort to change the law? >> i couldn't agree more. >> tucker: all the rich people, well-educated people are for ignoring immigration laws, all that i know. w but i don't hear anybodydy announcing a campaign in congress to change the law. let's make it the law, if you sneak in and we think you are great or you work for me at a lowyo wage, you can stay. why ignore laws on the books? that's corrosive, corrosive of

the rulebook. >> i wouldn't agree -- i think the president has the unique opportunity to do something unprecedented in the way that only he could. i think the first thing that needs to change the way that we evaluate dreamers. we should let them stay. t i hate to say it, and i don't -- >> tucker: what does that mean? anyone who dreams can stay? give me specific criteria. >> i think if we have the specific criteria, we can evaluate them substantially. >> tucker: you are here illegally, you should be allowed to stay if you blank. if you what? >> i think if you came here at a certain age, that was too young to be able to decide on your own whether or not you came here.ar i think that -- >> tucker: should the parents be able to stay, too? >> in many cases they should. i hate to say it but -- >> tucker: so anybody with ad child in tow can stay.y >> no, not with a child in tow necessarily.

there was a guy deported today that had four u.s. citizen children that were going too be -- >> tucker: anybody that comes in with a child, you can't deport the parents, what about grandparents and cousins? >> it gets complicated. but we have to have a humane approach to this. >> tucker: then why don't we quantify it instead of degrad it? >> we should, and i see nothing but cowardice from both the democrat and the republican side. >> tucker: boy, i am there with you there. we kind of agreed a lot, it was great to see. i don't know if that was a debate. >> thanks again, and congrats on all your success. >> tucker: how should we fix health care? if you had all the power in the world. we will ask charles krauthammer that question next. undtrack? is there any other way? that's what a smoothie should taste like. visit a store today for fresh fruit smoothies and summer deals. and, at outback our sweet, tender snow crab legs come with a big bold outback steak!

and, speaking of big... why not go full aussie, and go for a full pound! steak & crab starts at just $15.99. but, hurry in... when they're gone, they're gone! even if you're trying your best.be a daily struggle, along with diet and exercise, once-daily toujeo® may help you control your blood sugar. get into a daily groove. ♪ let's groove tonight. ♪ share the spice of life. ♪ baby, slice it right. from the makers of lantus®, ♪ we're gonna groove tonight. toujeo® provides blood sugar-lowering activity for 24 hours and beyond, proven blood sugar control all day and all night, and significant a1c reduction. toujeo® is used to control high blood sugar in adults with diabetes. it contains 3 times as much insulin in 1 milliliter as standard insulin. don't use toujeo® to treat diabetic ketoacidosis, during episodes of low blood sugar or if you're allergic to insulin. get medical help right away if you have a serious allergic reaction such as body rash or trouble breathing.

don't reuse needles or share insulin pens. the most common side effect is low blood sugar, which can be life threatening. it may cause shaking, sweating, fast heartbeat, and blurred vision. check your blood sugar levels daily. injection site reactions may occur. don't change your dose of insulin without talking to your doctor. tell your doctor about all your medicines and medical conditions. check insulin label each time you inject. taking tzds with insulins, like toujeo®, may cause heart failure that can lead to death. find your rhythm and keep on grooving. ♪ let's groove tonight. ask your doctor about toujeo®. ♪ share the spice of life.

>> tucker: we spent some time

on this show following the drama of the republican health care billa we talked with the secretary of hhs last night asking questions like will it pass, what senators are defecting, what demands are being made, how many people lose insurance coverage. those are all important questions. once in awhile it's important to take a step back and remember the point of all of this. fixing a health care system that is deeply broken for tens of millions of americans. if you had absolute power, what would you do to improve american health care? charles krauthammer is the perfect man to answer that question. he's an author and a columnist. he's also a physician. he went to harvard medical school, and he will explain what we should do in a perfect world. >> the first thing is to recognize a mistake that obama made. and others have made. thinking that you can revolutionize a system that's unbelievably complex and interlinked, one-sixth of the economy. there was a mistake because whenever you change one thing, it changes 80 other things, and when you're changing everything at once you have no idea whatit the outcome is going to be and you get all of these unintended

side effects. i think what you need first of all is modesty. and i think -- >> tucker: modesty?th >> yes. that's a commodity you can't even really purchase in washington, but it is available in other parts of the world. monasteries, for example. where was i? okay, the first thing you do is to say you're going to go with this this piece by piece. the first one that is the biggest, lowest hanging fruit, that was not even touched by obamacare, scandalously, is reform. the medical malpractice is totally out of control. everybody in the system knows it. and it's not just the outrageous judgments, it's not just theer fact that some people get millions of dollars, others get nothing, and the people that get rich are lawyered. it's that it causes doctors tos, practice defensive medicine. there was a survey done by thes ormassachusetts medical society that found that doctors admitted

that about one quarter of all procedures, examinations, hospitalizations, and tests were done to fend off the lawyers, not for medical reasons. i know that, i was there. i did the same thing. we had to do it. if you are working in a hospital, somebody said just in passing that he had some pain near his chest, you kept him overnight because otherwise the lawyers would kill you if something happened. whereas if you are doing it for medical reasons, you might observe him for a couple of hours and then you send him home. >> tucker: because there's a cost of staying overnight. not just economic -- >> the costs are massive. if one quarter of tests and procedures are done for legal reasons and not medical reasons, we are talking hundreds of billions of dollars a year. it could be up to half a trillion dollars a year. imagine if you cut that in half with a rational reform system, you could use that money to subsidize the health insurance for every poor person in america.

this is just one of -- and thens only reason the democrats did not included in a bill of 2,000 pages with because they are owned by the trial lawyers. >> tucker: their biggest donors go to any yacht basin, and y -- it will be over 10%. >> and a lot of that is sucked out of medicine. when i went to school, the smart kids either went into medicine or law. the smartest are the ones who went into law, because they made the laws that have essentially taxed and stolen the income of the doctors that ends up in the legal profession. that's number one. toward reform. it can be done as a piece. it doesn't have to be done as part of something comprehensive. second, this is obviously easier and shorter, is allow people to buy health insurance across state lines. it's not a state issue, it's not rational. you can buy auto insurance

across state lines. >> tucker: what's the opposition to that rooted in? >> i really -- i have never heard a very good argument. it could be that the legal structure right now is that - health insurance is the province of each state. so that if you -- look, i'm making a case for something i don't believe, if you opened it up there would be what they call a race to the bottom. people would want the cheapest insurance. i would say, what the hell, why not allow them to buy the insurance they want? isn't this a free country? with auto insurance, you buy whatever level of insurance yout want. there would be the obvious and second one. the other thing i would do, it's a little complicated. i'm about to go into governor perry territory where i forget the third and then i do remember the third, and that is you've got to recognize that you can't make the young and the healthy subsidize the rich. that's what obamacare did. they hiked up the premiums for the young and the healthy, which

by the normal tables, they would be paying about the sixth of what the elderly do. the democrats who created it made it a third. they were paying twice what they were getting. so what does a rational young person do -- opt out, exactly. what's left, only the sink of the sick and the poor. the government has to say we are going to take care of the very sector. establish an open, transparent government and then have the rest of the d market open to the healthier people. and their premiums will be kept low. that's the way to do it. nobody wanted to do it. obama wanted to hide it. hide the costs.g the young people aren't stupid, and they didn't buy it. >> tucker: and acted rationally. charles krauthammer. i wish you were in charge of this.s.e it >> i wish i wasn't. i'm really happy to be outside of it. look at the carnage that's going on now. >> tucker: i don't know why i'm laughing.

it it's bad. we have something awful that happened on cnn again. we will have it for you next. which didn't get me to my goal. lowers my a1c better than the leading branded injectable. the one i used to take. victoza® lowers blood sugar in three ways. and while it isn't for weight loss, victoza® may help you lose some weight. non-insulin victoza® comes in a pen and is taken once a day. (announcer) victoza® is not recommended as the first medication to treat diabetes and is not for people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. do not take victoza® if you have a personal or family history of medullary thyroid cancer, multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if you are allergic to victoza® or any of its ingredients. stop taking victoza® and call your doctor right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck or if you develop any allergic symptoms

including itching, rash, or difficulty breathing. serious side effects may happen, including pancreatitis, so stop taking victoza® and call your doctor right away if you have severe pain in your stomach area. tell your doctor your medical history. taking victoza® with a sulfonylurea or insulin may cause low blood sugar. the most common side effects are headache, nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting. side effects can lead to dehydration, which may cause kidney problems. now's the time for a better moment of proof. ask your doctor about victoza®. which saves money. insurance a smarter way. they offer paperless billing and automatic payments. which saves paper. which saves money. they offer home and auto coverage, so you can bundle your policies. which saves hassle. which saves money. and they offer a single deductible. which means you only pay once when something like this happens. which saves money. esurance was born online and built to save. and when they save, you save. that's home and auto insurance for the modern world.

esurance. an allstate company. click or call.

>> tucker: here is a weird story. angela rice says she doesn't have the same chief executive as every other american. watch. trump is simply the president for other people, she says. >> he went into a press conference during the summer asking russia to find the other 30,000 emails.gin there's a lot of things that your president has done to defy logic. let's at least acknowledge d th. >> your president too. >> he's your president. >> the president of the united states. >> tucker: she has tweeted "myit president left january 20th." here's a helpful guide, if you are a u.s. president and you live here, donald trump is your president. you can watch movies or books on someone else's president but alas, that won't change the reality.ov it's important to acknowledge this.

republics only survive when elections are acknowledged as real. if every person picks their own president, there is no president at all. good night from washington. on"the five" is to next. see you tomorrow. >> greg: hi, i am greg gutfeld. with kimberly guilfoyle, juan williams, jesse watters and she runs laps on a close and play. dana perino. you're watching "the five." how come health care is a disaster?? this is a remote. it has a hundred buttons but i only use the power and the channel arrow. i don't know what the other buttonss do. if i hit another one, it's all over. i'mea helpless. that's health care. it's really designed and overly complicated. so convoluted. it's manua