>> i am greg gutfeld with kimberly guilfoyle, juan williams, g chris stirewal, and dana perino. "the five" ." if i were a professor, i would teach a course called socialism 101 where every student must spend every moment on venezuela, glued to the results and policies indoors by the bernie sanders' of the world. it's happening right now. is anyone watching? not if "game of thrones" is on or president trump tweets. that takes priority.

for the past decade, we have watched an oil-rich country descend into chaos where toilet paper is worth more than actual currency in their currency not worthe a crap. a government that controls production and distribution, creates scarcity, sham, elections, arrests, dictatorship, corpses in the streets. never starts out that way. begins with a left-wing populist and his fan base. elites portraying a holy hell as i have been in waiting. where are they now? oliver stone, michael moore, danny glover. the writers at salon who labeled venezuela a miracle. where are they hiding? i guess when you see the starving kids, dying babies, infant mortality, maternal death, it's hard to showea your

face. as apologists, they played a role in it. the technical term, useful idiots. aser people die, the stars inevitably move on, opt to find another radical to romance. this never happens in free markets. maybe if we killed more people the stars would love us. kimberly, the amazing gift of socialism is that it can take the richest thing and destroy it. venezuela was one of, i guess, the fourth richest country. >> kimberly: this is the problem. it eats itself from the inside out into total, utter collapse. you see the fruition of these policies result in a complete dictatorship in venezuela. maduro was able to accomplish that.bo we think about the oil reserves and economic advantages this country has. yet so many people are suffering and persecuted, wrongly imprisoned, starving, without

basic supplies or basic necessities to get through the day. it's shocking when you see it. it's such a perfect textbook case example of these failed policies and what they can do to a once thrivingin country. you see people hunger and thirst and celebrate this kind of socialism. it always leads to this same conclusion. >> greg: why do people on your side always romance radicalism whenhe they know there is every example ends poorly? >> juan: i don't know when every example it ends poorly. something i read today said the average venezuelan has lost 14 pounds since maduro took office. there's no food. here's where i have a little different view. if you go to venezuela and hugo chavez, the forerunner for nicolas maduro, there was such

tremendous poverty places like caracas which were thriving and based on oil money. the whole idea, would capture the idea of the left and hollywood was here's this guy strugglingt against a big americanan corporation and they are trying to impose their will on his latin country. all of a sudden, you get people doing things. chavez initially helped reduce illiteracy, improve the employment rate in venezuela. that -- then you see big government start to revolve and the corruption and access and thievery. especially state-owned enterprises when the state took over a lot of oil-based enterprises. that's whereoi it went wrong. i am a pure capitalist. i live in the u.s., i'm a happy camper. but i understand and i think in this is where i was going to say. there is a loop.

i think a lot of people who were angry over wealth inequality. a lot of people in the trump base say i don't like wall street too big to fail. i don't like the elites on the coast. i'm angry and i want someone to represent me. there is a lot of chavez in that sentiment. >> greg: i don't know. ii think the people who are pro-trump are pro-business and pro-second amendment. chris, chavez, castro, ortega. with the world excuses this behavior because they romance the idea of radicalism. that's how i see it. agree with me. >> chris: i will try to care what sean penn thinks. i will dig deep and try to care. evenen though his performance in "all the kings men" was inexorable and he should be forced to live in caracas. there is a cautionary tale.

beyond the one you described about what happened to socialism, it devolves and nationalism supplants good thinking. they were poorly governed originally because they were rich. w they were poorly governed in the same way the saudis are poorly governed and other petro nations. in thest united states we hate paying taxes but it makes us pay attention to what the government is doing. if you say don't worry. you don't have to pay taxes. we are taking care of it. things drift off quickly. >> greg: let's say you have a 15-year-old and you want to explain how come free markets are immune to this chaos. why does this chaos only happened in these governments? for some reason, we are like well-oiled machine. we t have our flaws. the flaws somehow correct themselves. see five south america gets very little attention. you can pick up the newspaper.

unless thereve is a war. we could be heading there. i had lunch with a teacher toda who teaches high school students and she said last year all of her students. she said they were all for bernie sanders. they were all in. they loved him. she kept saying you realize what that leads to is something like in venezuela. what president trump did this week in terms of sanctions and strong. maduro is 1 of 4 people in the world that are personally sanctioned. you can sanction countries or companies. kim jong-un, robert mcgaughey, bashar al-assad, no maduro. the national review called at the foursome from hell. why would you lead with this? teach the lesson of socialism. the united states should care about what's happening there. it's just south of our border. if you care about human rights, you think we have an illegal

immigration problem? wait until there's a problem in south america. the attempt to overrun a border. maybe that's why you have a wall. the drug trade will be allowed to proliferate. you have human trafficking. not to scare people but this is true. terrorists try to seek out jihadis 2 in places that are unstable like venezuela. marco rubio says that's actively happening. >> greg: i can believe it. let's go to mike pence. >> we've seen the completion of venezuela's collapse into dictatorship. not only did the regime hold a sham national assembly election but on monday, the regime seized two prominent members of the opposition. they are being held illegally as we speak. >> greg: kimberly,im this wouldn't be a real segment if we didn't put some of this blame on

president obama. >> kimberly: i was waiting for that. >> greg: he did nothing. this has been going on for a while. what did he do? probably played golf. >> kimberly: shook hands and enabled them by allowing this to proliferate until the eventual demise of venezuela. when you see socialism like this, it really discourages individual contribution to try to create and you say okay, i'm going to sit here and enjoy my apathy. i'm going to let the government provide for me because there is no built-in incentive for the society and for the structure to put itself forward and save itself and also to encourage its future survival. that's why you see it kind of collapseol and you see these dictatorships, people wrongly imprisoned. people being shot in the streets, people being killed for $5 $5 $5 or to buy basic necessities. >> juan: now you have 40

countries not recognizing this new assembly because the whole election was corrupt. a company formed in venezuela which monitored and provided the computers, millions of votes fraudulent. out of control. what you have now, an international coalition saying we don't like what's going on in venezuela. the question is, beyond saying certain venezuelan potentates can't travel, what do do? if you go after the oil, then our $2.31 a gallon prices may go up. a stake in terms of russia. it's an important leverage point, oil. the question is, does donald trump the president and vice president pence who we just saw her decide we are willing to pay this price to fight against people we think are corrupt. >> greg: i think that's why the natural gas industry, we are doing, the fracking, trying to

become less dependent on unstable countries for their oil. >> kimberly: people that go to venezuela, they've lived there. people are really, they are eating their own d paths. they have nothing to eat. that's how dire the situation is. maybe people here will care about that. >> greg: i am hoping the pets are chickens. >> chris: i don't think so. >> greg: this is the perfect way to teach somebody about economics, the difference between free markets and socialism is decentralized economies. the decentralized economy, if somethingso fails, there is something else that succeeds. if the if the economy is run by the government, it fails. >> kimberly: only the unicorns are safe with you.

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steps to keep undocumented immigrants out of the u.s., but has also taken new steps toward legal immigration. merit or skill base. tensions flared at the white house this afternoon when a reporter took issue with the proposal favoring emigrants who speak english. >> this whole notion, they have to learn english before they get to united states, are we just going to bring people from great britain and australia?avna >> it's actually, i want to say, i am shocked at your statement that you think only people from great britain and australia would know english it is actually, reveals your cosmopolitan bias to a shocking degree, that in your mind -- this is an amazing moment. this is an amazing moment, that you think only people from great britain or australia which speak english, it is so insulting to millions of hard-working immigrants who do speak english from all over the world. jim, have you honestly never met

an immigrant from another country who speaks english outside of great britain and australia? is that your personal experience? >> of course there are other people -- >> but that's what you said. it shows your cosmopolitan bias. >> dana: we have a new phrase, "cosmopolitan bias." jim acosta was on cnn later and he had more to say. >> i think i at times the white house has a fixation on the mexicans, muslims, and the media. their policies tend to be crafted around it -- and one of those three groups, and we see it time andd again. >> dana: all right, chris chris. there are times when reporters>> become the story, and i think, it's almost like jim acosta

wants to be a pundent. >> chris: i did not see that. that is dreadful. you can't say that. when you are interviewing a subject -- i have interviewed everyone from white supremacists to run the spectrum. deplorable disgusting human beings. the truth is, you keep that to yourself, even after the interview, because your impartiality, the reader, the viewer, is owed the pretense of impartiality, even in the presence of moral odium. the fact that he would go do that, look, life is hard and full of challenges. stephen miller gave him all humiliating tongue lashing thatu he probably should not have given him. miller let his pride get thehe better of him too. but for him to go and say that, stop covering the white house. if you already made up your mind to that degree that these people are so dreadful, then you should find some thing else to with your network. >> dana: what do you think, juan?? >> juan: i think you have to challenge power. i think that's the role of the american press, i was listening to him carefully, chris, because i think it is important that

reporters not buy into the kind of orthodoxy coming out of any person, left or right. but on the other hand, you can not have a situation where you'reve standing there, you areheug advancing your own thoughts and your own agenda, contrary to the one that is coming from the people in power. the people in power don't deserve to go without being challenged and have the facts shown to them. we also saw it today. reporters ask them, just give us the statistics to back up what you're saying, and instead, they go and say, why don't we send low income immigrants to work at the "the new york times" andte take your job, which was not an answer. it may come off to some people as combative. why is the reporter engagingeo with him, but it seemed to me that stephen miller was delighting in skewering the press, calling them cosmopolitan elite. >> dana: they certainlyhe benefit by going after the press. do you want to comment on the press or the mayor of this news?

>> greg: he made a really great point. when he implied that any reduction in flow was against our core beliefs, then the question is, so there is never such a thing is enough. you can have 5 million, 10 million. i thought there was a great point. but in terms of the actual specifics of what they are introducing, what is wrong with having people learn a language.p how dare you demand something that helps them? you're actually saying, we want you to do well. in a strange way, we are asking immigrants to compete amongst themselves. we are inviting competition and wanting you to come over here and kick our butts. come over here, better prepared. you want to make money, if you know the language, you're going to make more money. you're going to get better jobs. we want you to come here and be better. the other thing, as if it does cut immigration in half or the increase in half, shifting from

low to high skilled workers, maybe citizens that don't leave might resolve to fix the problems in their own country. maybe in the future, yourow children and their children don't have to leave the country, because a lot of people are leaving horrible countries. maybe, stay and fix the damn place. >> dana: there are a lot of competing economic theories on this. some economists say illegal immigration helps grow the economy, the white house are w saying it is holding back wages, and the bill is entitled the raise act, because the goal is to raise wages. but it looks like it doesn't have a hope of passing in the congress this year. >> kimberly: no, it is a great idea with nowhere to go. ultimately, if they were behind it, they think it would actually increase wages and improve the economy, which is somethingg positive for the president, bute obviously, this is a very difficult topic, where there has

really been a history of lack of consensus or achievement inre terms of getting some policies for the actually work. that you can get people to have bipartisan support for. today is a perfect example, and i think why steve miller took exception to this is because of the constant brought by the mainstream media to suggest thai anyone who wants to secure the borders or build a wall or have proper screening from countries that have an influx of people coming aren't properly screened screen, the travel ban, is a bigot or a racist. they accuse the president of that. the vitriol that jim acosta approached it with. this is what we are dealing with now any time the subject comes up, and it is frustrating. >> juan: this ends this whole argument that this is just about legal immigrants. you have a policy on the table that will cut legal immigration in half. >> greg: i agree with you for once.

>> dana: it is hard not to agree with you because that is a fact. all right, "the new york times" said the justice department could be preparing to sue some of america's politics, but the department of justice fired back. we will have those details next. and then you totaled him. you two had been through everything together. two boyfriends, three jobs... you're like nothing can replace brad. then liberty mutual calls... and you break into your happy dance. if you sign up for better car replacement™, we'll pay for a car that's a model year newer with 15,000 fewer miles than your old one. liberty stands with you™. liberty mutual insurance.

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it all started simply with a job ad over at the justice department, basically a help wanted ad. w saying they wanted to hire more lawyers to deal with a new project that was going to be investigating this termination in the college admissions process. "the new york times" got a copyy of that help wanted ad, and then extrapolated out and they are reporting, that somehow this was going to be president t trump investigating claims that there is antiwhite bias in the admissions process of colleges and universities. this, as you can imagine, ignited a firestorm. democrats including former, president obama's education secretory was disheartened. by a move that he claimed it would african-american and hispanic students. one big problem, the job for lawyers to work for attorney general jeff sessions did not refer to antiwhite bias at all. sshuckabee sanders set at the

sarah huckabee sanders set at the white house podium that it would be investigating potential biased against all races, not specifically against rights. this evening, the justice department came out and in much stronger terms denied the story, saying in fact that the lawyers were being hired specifically to hire complaints filed by asian american groups, who alleged back in 2015 that there was discrimination at harvard in their admission process. interesting, because this case was first brought to the attention of the obama administration in 2015, they did not finish it by the time they left office this past january. so, now the demonstration is looking at that. then move onto the russia story. we have heard this narrative time and time again. president trump is too close to president putin in russia. and there were reports in recent days that he would not sign into law this bill that was passed through both houses of congress, instituting new sanctions against russia, making it harder for president trump to wipe away any sanctions against russia. today, the president signed that into law.ag he did say he had some problems with the law, that he believes there are some unconstitutional

provisions in there, but he signed it, despite all of theer claims that he would not, and then the prime minister d of russia charged that president trump was humiliated and that he signed it only because there were overwhelming majorities in the house and senate that would have overwritten any veto. he went on to say that this could spark a trade war between the u.s. and russia and that any hope of warmer relations between the u.s. and russia are now gone because of president trump signing this into law. again, a little bit differentaof than the narrative we have heard in recent days. >> kimberly: all right, thank you so much for the update. take it around the table. dana, your thoughts on two topics here? >> dana: before i was curious if "the new york times" asked the justice department for reaction and they just did not get a call back. i worked at the justice department as a spokesperson for a year, and i know that, sometimes, getting an answerde from lawyers takes a lot longer than you would like as a p.r.

person. so it, it is frustrating. maybe all of this could have been contained and avoided. maybe, i don't know. but i could also understand how this could get out of controll pretty quickly, but you see that it took the justice department almost an entire day to say, no, it is about the lawsuit from the asian american students that was filed in 2015, which is a very interesting case, and something that the obama administration left on the table. i do think it is something that should be reviewed. >> kimberly: absolutely. to make sure the communication is there at the ready. >> chris: this is true. i wonder what would be wrong with looking at bias against right white students.is that would be okay. i found this weird, that this would be an appalling thing. if there is bias, we shouldn't investigate bias wherever it is. that is good.

and then the response from the administration, no! it wasn't on the behalf of white students, we are so vindicated! i found it all to be very telling and odd moment. >> juan: i think there's a reason, chris. i think we live in a white majority society, where most college students are white. if you look at the population, it is more than a third of people over 25 who are white have a college degree, but if you look at blacks, it is less than a quarter, and hispanics, less than a fifth. you see there is a disparity. we worry about a stable american society, and i think that is why colleges have been quite intentional saying, we would like to increase diversity on campus. ous what you see from the supreme court, with sandra day o'connor in 2003, is to say race can be one factor, but it can't be the exclusive and only factor.. so all of a sudden, you see the justice department, what was

alarming to me was to see the civil rights division involved in this, because i don't seed that there is any outright discrimination against white people in colleges. but i think that they are not saying, we were worried about the fact that so many asian students have extraordinarily high grades, but they are held to a different standard than whites, whites, latinos, anybody. and so they say, you are unfairly treating the asian students. and then in places especially out west, they say, we can fill the whole place up with these high-flying academic top grade sat, act asian students, but wea are trying to have a whole campus that represents the entire community that pays taxes to this institution. so, i think it would be legit.es i thought, by the way, the but we are looking at asians

i think that was a beard. it is about white students. >> greg: i thought the affirmative action story was a big fat zero. it was a job posting. they found a job posting and they made a mountain out of a microbe, it was born out of the hysterical reaction to anything that is coming out of the trump administration.th they see this, they go, evidence of the jim acosta mindset. it is all about race. i have to question whether -- do we really need to push for an increase in diversity anymore when it is now a preset assumption? when you look at recruitment ads for anything, people are dying for diversity. if you talk to anybody in hr, they are desperate for people. if you talk to anybody in recruiting, campuses, thera military, the hunger for diversity is they are, whether you need affirmative action anymore, i am not so sure. i think that people -- and it's. already there. people are trying. they can't get enough. the problem with affirmative action, which, clarence thomas has talked about this, it castse

doubt on your achievements. everyone assumes you have two leg up. people regret, this is a bad thing. it pushes people to fast in a situation that they may not be ready for. i remember reading about thishi constantly where people get into college, and then they get lousy grades and they drop out because they weren't ready you have to be there. >> kimberly: because they weren't set up for success. >> dana: part of the solution to that is not college, it is k-12 education.ce >> chris: that's right. >> juan: i would agree with you, i would also say good families. >> kimberly: what about >> dana: and you can't legislate that. another climate doozy from al gore ahead.on like this browning command ops 14 megapixel game camera

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>> juan: former vice president al gore always finds a way to get into the headlines by warning the world about global warming. well, he has done it again. his latest comparison of his fight is to the fight for civil rights. >> when i was a boy growing up a lot of time in the south, i remember when the civil rights movement was gaining momentum, i will tell you, the resistance to civil rights laws was just as fierce, if not more so than the resistance to solving the climate crisis. but ultimately, we crossed a clinical tipping point, andt people realize, it is justic a question of right and wrong. >> juan: you say it's a moral issue, not only that, it is a fight against a apartheid, women

subjugated by men. >> greg: he is a moron. the biggest harm to the climate change agenda is not skeptics, it is zealots. they ruin everything. there are people who would be moderately interested in what's going on out there if it wasn't for the chicken little mentality like what's his face. it is like a grateful dead head. he makes you hate the band because all they talk about other concerts and how jerry garcia plays a 20 minute solo. that is what happens. he ruined the climate change argument because there is stuff to talk about, whether it is man-made or not, there's a lot of dispute. there's a lot of dispute everywhere, but there is something happening, and we should talk about it, but he has ruined it. he has basically peed in the pool of pool of debate. and he is a big. >> juan: i want out. but you know what, dana, somebody at this event, from the chesapeake bay area, said

mr. vice president i don't see any rising tide around here. he had a difficult time dealing with that. >> dana: right, because a lot of the things that they said were going to happen have not happened uniformly around the world. different places see different things. i think that the epa administrator had a an excellent idea, a televised debate on climate change. we run it live, and both sides -- i like them too. greg and i like watching those. i think that would be a way to actually get people on the same page. get the zealots off, and get responsible people on both sides of the issue to debate out. >> juan: let me ask you, do you think anyone would say, they are right, they persuaded me. >> dana: may be, that is what they do in these debates. you vote.

>> chris: the soul of these problem here, the beating heart is this, we are talking about gradient differences in policies that are sold and existential apocalyptic terms. there is nothing that was in the paris climate accord that was going to change the history of mankind for all time. instead of talking about things like we would other issues,, lie taxes and other things, we talk about it in these existential dead polar bear terms, and as a consequent, it turns away from what it really is, and economic issue, it becomes a social issue. we all know when it becomes a social issue, people turn their brains off, and they deal with their hearts, and that is not sufficient for an issue like this.ffhe >> juan: i put this in question to you. if someone had a debate, and the facts on the table, is anybody going to change their minds at this point? >> kimberly: i think that people might. t people who want to be open-minded. to pick up on what greg isbe saying, the zealots, they are so prone to hyperbole and exaggeration, that it defeats

honest discussion and analysis of the facts. so, that is basically the problem i have with it. i feel like i'm watching groundhog day when i see al gore. and then mar-a-lago will still be there. you want to have the facts, you want to debate it, but when people are so close-minded as to one direction or the other,av there is too big of a space in between to try and bridge it. >> juan: oh, we do talk. i do think that al gore might be engaged in some hyperbole, but the facts are there. since president trump defeated hillary clinton in the electoral college, so why is he still talking about her so much? her former campaign chair has a theory. that is next. ♪ binders. done. super-cool notebooks. done. that's mom taking care of business.

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♪ >> chris: we thought the election of 2016 would never end. oh lord, oh lord. for hillary clinton's former campaign manager, john podesta, it apparently never did. he says, president trump, is still stuck in 2016 too. >> i think it really just bugs

the hell out of him that she got 3 million more votes than he did, and he keeps coming back to that. obviously, we bear the burden of having lost the electoral college. so, i do think about that every night, but i think that he is partly strategic to try and deflect attention on his problems, but i think he -- she is really under his skin. >> chris: it is helpful to a degree for donald trump to remind his voters and supporters, remember why you voted for me. we see these numbers, voters are feeling a little crabby, there is more discontent out there, but if you bring it back to 2016, there is some utility in this. you say, would you rather hillary clinton be president today? >> greg: i wake up every morning and asked myself the question.

and i throw up. i have to use a sports analogy. they always talk about how she had more votes. the super bowl, the raiders beat the broncos, but the broncos had more yards. so what, i have the super bowl ring. >> chris: but kimberly, i think it bothers the president. there is a little bit there. >> greg: this is america! we did a whole thing on immigration, but now we are hypocrites. >> chris: by a bugs him, right? >> kimberly: i think it does.ut he is transparent about it. this is still a constant dialogue.st i would probably be a little irritated too, because he won the election, and you think enough already.s there is constantly there's

rehashing it. the efforts to delegitimize the presidency, but you have to then rise above that, it's not distracting. engaged in this hamster wheel all the time. >> chris: juan, when i think of the person that has harmed the democratic party the most in the past generation, hillary clinton stands out head and shoulders above the rest. i am constantly amazed that she continues to inflict herself on a democratic party that she should have -- do you remember the moment when mitt romney said, i am thinking about runningon again, and republican said don't do it and he backed away. he moved away from that space. hillary clinton has a book out, she is still engaged, her campaign chairman is out selling these talking points. is there a certain point where the clintons will stop inflicting themselves on democrats and let them move onhe to a new generation? >> juan: it's really important.

it's like the forest , the big trees have to fall so the little trees can grow. i disagree with you that she and bill clinton have imposed the most damage on the democratic party. >> greg: it's chelsea. >> juan: i think that people, if you look at everything from fundraising to party i.d., bill clinton's numbers are higher than -- e >> chris: do you know anyone who lost more popular votes? who is that guy? [laughs] >> dana: i do think that it works really well, but i would advise them if they're going to continue using it, talk about hillary clinton's policies. instead of talking about hillary clinton in scandals better than hillary on policy is a better footing for winning some of these debates. >> chris: "one more thing" is up next. next

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♪ >> greg: it's time for "one more thing." i will start it off. check out my podcast with dr. michael. go to fox newspodcast.com. we talk about the future of death. we talked about really cool stuff. trust me, it will blow your mind.me now this. slow news day.

in today's slow news day, we visit a parrot and a cat. very interesting arrangement here.. they don't really get along too well. because it is slow news day, let's show it again in slow motion, because that is why it is slow news.w it's beautiful. >> dana: all right, seven priests walk into a bar. this isn't a joke though. this is in wales. they walk into a bar, but the bar staff thought they were out to do a fancy dress party, like a stag thing. they said, sorry we don't do that here. you're not allowed in. and they said, no really we are priests. finally, it all got resolved, they got them a round of beer, they said some prayers.

>> chris: very nice. >> juan: how did that story come to your attention? >> dana: emily said it was her favorite thing of the day. >> juan: and out of this world job has just opened at nasa, ane it sounds like something out of men in black. it is a real job listing, and it pays a lot of money.th nasa is looking to hire a planetary protection officer. the job description is "protecting space from biological contamination and protecting earth biosphere from alien life." basically, fighting off aliens and killer bugs and diseases that come from aliens. wow. >> dana: i think my "one more thing" was better than that. >> kimberly: we have some terrific news. some of you may have heard about it, but my good friendnd sean hannity is executive producing a fantastic new film called "let there be light." we have a clip of it that we would like to show you.

>> you are the only one who can say there is no there there. >> went someone almost dies, they are seeing their imagination running wild. >> kimberly: the film is about an atheist who has a near death experience, and that produces a change in his opinion about life and death, and faith and family. it is terrific, we are proud of sean hannity.ut it will be released on october 27th. >> chris: i am so grateful for your hospitality here the past two days. thanks for having me. but i'm going to force this upon you even so. on this day, calvin coolidge opted not to run for a second full term in office.

he had won a landslide victory, he was a shoe in, and he said he was done. in that way he said he could best honor the people who he served. >> greg: "hannity" is up next. >> sean: , thanks to our friends on "the five." robert muller, he has yet another democratic donor to his investigative team. tonight we will be exposing how the special counsel is now carrying out what is a political witch hunt.. we will explain why it needs to be shut down. a hannity special investigation. also, former obama aides in congress, in the cross hairs over unmasking. sarah carter has all the details. her brand-new explosive report about the former obama national security advisor ben rhodes being now a person of interest in a congressional probe. plus, gregg jarrett, jay