we love seeing them, "life, liberty & levin" is up next with special guest benjamin netanyahu. i'm steve hilton, "the next revolution" will be televised next sunday. . mark: welcome to "life, liberty & levin." it's an honor to see you, mr. prime minister. >> is that it? "life, liberty & levin"? mark: that's it. >> glad to be here. mark: emphasis on the levin. >> got it. mark: you've been here several days, you're relationship with the president of the united states seems to be very unique, very personal. is it unique and personal and how did it get that way? >> it is, and it began that

way. that's the way it began, i can't explain it. just like that. mark: you have shared value ands beliefs and that sort of thing? >> i think so, but there's also a certain chemistry. president likes to cut through -- >> noise. >> i don't want to call it noise. there are two initials in english, you know? he cuts right through it. mark: yes. >> and it's refreshing when we talk about serious things, he cutsight to the point. and i appreciate th. i also remember him when i was ambassador of israel to the united nations and he was a very prominent businessman in new york and we occasionally bumped in the same circles, but we met years later, and it's been a direct and very positive relationship from the get-go. mark: as a matter of fact, when you served at the embassy here, you spent a little chunk of your life in america. in fact, you and i went to the same high school, not together,

but the same high school, cheldanham outside of philadelphia where. it d it start and where did it go? >> i came here for the first time when i was eight years old about a year. didn't know a word of english. my father came here to edit the -- he was a great professor, a great historian, but the way he made his living is edited encyclopedias. they wanted him to edit a great jewish encyclopedia which he did for a year and said it's not good enough, i don't want my name on it. during the year we lived in manhattan, i came here, god, didn't know a word of english, it was bizarre and difficult for me. there was a girl they put next to me, they called her judy. i remember judy, she taught me english, she took out a book of pictures that had a dog, his name was spot.

see spot run. run spot run. and judy, believe it or not, and my dearly -- my dear mother, they're the ones who taught me english. so that was my first year, 8 to 9. then i came back here from the age of 13 to the end of high school and actually, and that's it. then i went back to the army and came back to study at m.i.t. mark: you studied at m.i.t., what did you study? >> first architect, and you are then i went to the business school and got basically an mba. mark: and you took a job in america for a period of time? >> yeah, i went to work for about a year at the boston consulting group. mark: is that where you met romney? >> yeah, he was ahead of me, he was star manager, actually. you know the horrible thing about mitt? he looks exactly the same! he hasn't changed at all. mark: he hasn't moved.

>> nothing, he looked the same, and it was a very good place. to be honest, i thought that year they spent there, in the presence of the founder of the boston consulting group was a real genius, he was a very eccentric genius, named bruce henderson, and i remember i came in on the first day, never been to a business thing. i spent five years in the army. i was an officer. i was a soldier and a commander in a special forces unit. went to m.i.t., finished my undergraduate, finished my graduate studies. got into the consulting firm, and the first day bruce henderson is, you know, very imposing figure, must have been in his early 70s, a virginian, he tells me, come inside, shut the door. sit down. he says, you know, you're not going to be here very long, because you'll go back to your

country. so study everything can you here because one day it will help the state of israel. and i thought this guy is bonkers! what is he talking about? i'm 27 years old, and he tells me to pick up what i can because it will help the state of israel. he was absolutely right because i learned something about how economies grow. they grow with the firms. the firms make the economy. you have to make it profitable for the firms to grow the economy. mark: what do we mean by firms? >> companies. entrepreneurs. mark: companies. >> business people. that's what makes the economy grow. the guys who produce the added value of the private sectors. guys who consume most of that is the public sector. in order to have the things that the public sector needs,

like an air force or roads or things like that, or other things, okay, you need to have a robust private sector. i learned that more than anywhere else at the boston consulting group. mark: and part of your career in the israeli government has been in the financial side. >> yeah. mark: when my family and i came to israel, the 50th anniversary of the liberation of jerusalem and the unification of jerusam, i saw all these cranes, i saw all this building going on. i saw the skyscrapers with the names of american technological companies on them and so forth. and you applied those policies as prime minister and so forth in israel? >> i am a great believer in free markets and one of my missions, two missions was to free up the israeli market, israeli economy, so it becomes a free market economy, to

unleash the genius embedded in our people, the sparks fly out the minute you open up the marketplace. you allow enterprise, innovation, risk, to fail or succeed, and i do a lot of reforms, i did that as prime minister. and subsequently as finance minister and subsequently as prime minister again and again and again. we're still doing it. the israeli economy has been growing under these reforms consistently at between 4% to 5% per year and the gdp per capita will probably catch up with japan in a couple of years, israel. mark: that's a big deal. >> that's a big deal. mark: particularly in technology, there seems to be a huge growth in israel. the amount of technology that has developed in your country, it's a tiny little country, and you sell it to, you know, you work with massive countries like india and so forth. that's obviously part of your

plan, right? it's very much myplan. it says -- first of all, technology by itself doesn't do anything. you know, you want a country that had great scientists, great mathematicians, great physicists, great metalure gists, it's the soviet union. if you take one of the guys, smuggled them out. put him in palo alto. he was producing added value, he was producing wealth. so technology without free markets doesn't go anywhere, israel had the technology, but didn't have free markets. had it technology because the military, especially military intelligence, produced a lot of capabilities, but unless you open it up, so people can start their businesses, these incredibly gifted young men and women who come out of the army or the mossad, they want to start their start-ups. they can't, if you have to pay

70% tax, it's not going to go anywhere. they're going to go elsewhere. one of the things i did the minute i became prime minister and then finance minister was enact an enormous number of reforms, several dozen reforms, opened up the economy, reduced tax rates, reduced spending and cut the bureaucracy. i had to -- it was a big challenge, you know, how do you explain this to the people of israel, you know? i took about two weeks to format an economic plan and explain it to the public, and i said this, i described my first day in basic training in the paratroops, and the commander lines us up in a big field, the whole company, and he says we're now going to take -- we're going to do a special race. you, he points at me, netanyahu, you pick up the guy next to you, put him on your shoulders. and the next guy, you put the guy next to you on your shoulders and so on, and i got

a fairly big guy on my shoulders, about my size, and i could barely take two steps forward when he blew the whistle. the guy next to me was the smallest guy in the company and he got the biggest guy on his shoulders. he collapsed on the spot. and the third guy was a big guy and he had a relatively small guy on his shoulders. he took off like a rocket and won the race, and i said in the international world, all national economies are pairs of a public sector sitting on the shoulders of the private sector. in our case, the private sector was collapsing under a public sector that got too fat, so we have to put the fat man on a diet, and we have to give a lot of oxygen to the thin man below, that's called tax relief, and we have to cut all the barriers to the competition. all the regulations that

prevent that guy from running forward. man-thin man taxicab, they couldn't recite, it they still couldn't recite it. what i did was trim the private sector, help the public sector, i fight regulation with machetes, all the time. mark: in addition to the economy, i watch these votes in the u.n., i see the president of guatemala, i see the leader of india, and what i notice observing israel over the last several decades is you obviously have a big push going on where you want to take israel's case all over the world, including in our hemisphere in america, and asia, india and so forth. has that borne fruit?

>> certainly has in international relations, having formed the israel economy, we got the prowess of technological advance, technology with free markets definitely works, and with the -- this amalgamation of big data, artificial intelligence and connectivity, israel is creating industries out of thin air, literally out of thin air, car industry that is autonomous leaders, world leader driving the world economy, cyber, we're a tiny fraction of 1% and get 20%, 20% of the world investment in private cybersecurity, huge. on the other side, we have security, we have superb intelligence, we've foiled dozens of terrorist attacks of isis, major terrorist attacks including the downing of an airliner, you can imagine what that would do. mark: and for all countries you

share that information? >> not only for us, we share it for dozens ever countries, prevented dozens of terrorist attacks, major terrorist attacks. when you take security interests and intelligence that countries have to protect themselves against terrorism, and that's pretty much all countries and take the needs for technological innovation, that is driving the world right now, both of them are present in israel, and so everybody wants them, that gives meet third thing, which is this massive flourishing of israel's diplomatic relations with just about every country in the world. not all, but we're not big on north korea, you know, not too big on iran, but just about everyone else, so this is a triangle. it's economic power, security power gives you diplomatic power. that will take a few years to translate itself into the votes of this archaic body call theed

the general assembly of the united nations. or some of the other bodies. it will take a while until they get the news, but it's happening all over the world, so israel has never been stronger militarily, economically, diplomatically, and it's a very deliberate policy, and actually begins with economics. mark: just a reminder, don't forget to watch us every week night on levin tv, crtv.com or call 844-levin-tv. the #1 doctor recommended probiotic brand. with 5 times the good bacteria to re-align your system. re-align yourself, with align. ♪ burned me up and down, shno way to cool it. ♪ ♪ ♪ every time you kiss me it's like sunshine and whiskey ♪ applebee's handcrafted burgers. any burger just $7.99. now that's eatin good in the neighborhood.

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. mark: we're back with the prime minister of israel, benjamin netanyahu. let me ask you a question: you justeturned to boston, you went full circ. what is it about america that you find so profound and so compelling? you spend a lot of time here. >> well, i think, in one word, freedom. freedom. because i think that america has been the van guard of freedom, and without the united states of america, you wouldn't have freedom in the world, and freedom is what makes life

worth living. freedom, innovation, informality. the fact that america is a meritocracy, okay? it's not a class society. if you're good, if you have the smarts and the ambition, you can do it, and this is a message for everybody. at least it should be. that's the way i see america, that's what i encountered in america and i thought should be brought to israel and in many ways, it influenced my thinkings certainly on the questions of the economy and innovation, because i saw great things, but there's something else, that, anybody could tell if you they're objective about it. but i saw in america something else. i'm a believer of the jewish state. the jewish people underwent horrific tragedies, and the

greatest tragedy befells you in the 20th century, the holocaust. during the first half of the 20th century when the holocaust occurred, america was not the world leader, and we paid a horrible price for that. then the state of israel was established, and what a difference that made and the fact that america did become the leader of the world. it's made all the difference. so when i look at america, i don't think of the principles of freedom. i think of america's defense of freedom in the world and alliance with israel and support for israel. i have the deepest feelings about the united states of america for both reasons. mark: when you come to this country, do you notice the deepest feelings americans have for the state of israel? how does that make you feel? >> makes me feel great! i tell you, going from here to new york city,hey let me walk

out a bit from my cage. i g out. i go with my wife to central park and americans come and they clap, and i did go to mount vernon here. mark: beautiful. >> yeah, i wanted to pay my respects to george washington, who was incredible. incredible figure, people don't know, don't appreciate washington for so many things. they appreciate it, but i learned a lot of things about him. i went there, there were people from all over the united states, and they applauded. but it's -- i think it's an identity that most americans feel about israel, that we're part of the same civilization and in many ways, you know, what the islam radicals say about us, they say you are you -- you are them and they are you. you are the small satan, and they're the big satan. we're not satanic on the contrary, the very contrary, but we are exactly that. we're the same civilization, and americans overwhelmingly

understand that. mark: small satan, large satan, in israel? how are muslims treated, how are arabs treated, how are christians treated, how are people are all faces treated? >> with genuine equality. israel is a middle of a very, very broad circle in the middle east and beyond where the arab citizens serve in my government, in my government, i appointed a drus minister, they serve in the supreme court, and they have real freedom and real equality under the law. if you want to make a comparison to other countries, i think you could make that yourself. there's complete religious freedom in israel, and in israel it's not only the jews and the muslims who enjoy complete freedom, it's the christians and in the middle east, the christians are being

squashed, they're being decimated or destroyed outright. and the only place where the christian community is thriving, flourishing, growing is in israel, because they're a democracy, because of our shared values, and i think most people know that, and even if they don't know it, they have a glint of it, they appreciate the fact that israel is a genuine democracy with all the trimmings and with all the faults, you know? it's not easy to govern democracies, i can tell you that. having done it four times. mark: east jerusalem, many of the holiest jewish sites, holy christian sites, before it was liberated and unified, what happened to these holy sites for jews and christians and so forth? >> for most of many centuries, you know, the three basic faiths, monotheistic faith, borders jerusalem, the church

of the holy sepulchre, the al-aqsa mosque, refurbired by harrod 2,000 years ago but built on the temple mount build by the king 2,000 years ago, and of the sacred shrines over the centuries, someone deprived, it when the muslims ruled, it they kicked out the crusaders, the jews and the christians, when the christians controlled it, they kicked out either the jews or the muslims. after they reunited it in 1967, after the six-day war, that we made it accessible to everyone. jews, muslims and christians alike, and it's only because we're there that this

potentially explosive square kilometer, maybe the most explosive in the world has been at peace because you see what is happening elsewhere in the middle east. how churches are destroyed, mosques are blown up, synagogues don't even exist, okay? and that would be the fate of the holy sites in jerusalem if israel went sovereign there. so obviously, we cherish the city, we cherish the temple mount and also cherish the freedom and the sanctity of the holy sites and others, we guarantee religious freedom for all. see how invisalign® treatment can shape your smile up to 50% faster today at invisalign.com

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♪have a little hope ♪make this world a little better♪ >> live from america's news headquarters i'm kelly wright in new york. a deadly helicopter crash her today at the east river earer this evening. this video from twitter shows it hitting the river before tipping over. the rotors smashing into the surface of the water, six people were in the helicopter. two passengers were killed, three others were removed by rescue divers, and are currently in critical condition. the pilot was able to free himself from his restraints and rescued by nearby tugboat. education secretary betsy devos would chair a safety commission, the white house announced it will focus on ways to identify threats, propose measures, include raising the age to purchase a rifle-type long gun from 18-21 and calling on states to allow courts to

issue orders that would take guns away from mentally unstable people. that's a look at news, i'm kelly wright. now back to "life, liberty & levin". mark: this week, prime minister benjamin netanyahu of israel. how important was it to you, to the people of israel, when president trump recognized jerusalem as the capital and we're moving our embassy there in may? >> i think all israelis applauded, applauded -- that's an understatement. there's a sense of history here. i said this to the president when i spoke to him in the oval office the other day. i saide have a long memory, and we remember how 2500 yea ago, the great persian king cyrus allowed the jewish exiles in babylon to come back to

jerusalem and build our temple there. we remember how 100 years ago the british foreign minister lord balfour issued the balfour declaration that recognized the rights of the jewish people in our ancestral homeland, we remember 70 years ago how president harry s. truman -- i think he was the first leader to recognize the jewish state, and we remember how president donald j. trump recognized israel or recognized jerusalem as israel's capital and decided to move the american embassy there. these are historic deeds. they will be remembered by our people that way for the ages. >> what's the greatest threat right now that israel faces? foreign threat? >> iran. you want the three threats? >> give me the three threats. >> iran, iran, iran. mark: let's take some time and

walk through this. obviously, iran, we americans had to deal with iran, they killed american soldiers in iraq, they back terrorism, they back terrorism that have killed american soldiers. they're building icbms, obviously, they can hit israel with icbms -- >> they're not building them for us, they can reach us with a regular missile, they're building missiles for you. coming to a theater near you. mark: so tell us why it's the number one, two, three threat. >> iran is trying to build an empire, an aggressive empire. you ow, the radicals in iran, which i don't think represent the vastority of the iranians who are hijacked by this theocratic thegocracy, they kept them under tide and

ruling the protests. they are pressing their own people and trying to conquer the rest of the middle east with, a view ultimately of dominating the world through their version of militant radical islam, shiite radicals, we stand in the way because we're you. we're the little satan. ultimately they want to get the great satan. and this sponsor of global terrorism is not only trying to develop a land empire, but they also want to develop nuclear weapons. and i think that has to be stopped. and i see eye-to-eye with president trump on that, and he's done a major change in american policy to stop iran from getting nuclear weapons. can you imagine a radical islamic regime with icbms, sponsoring terrorist groups, and having atomic bombs? that's a palpable danger, not

only to israel but to america. to the entire world. and by the way, you know who agrees with me on that? just about everybody in the middle east. just about all the arab governments. it's a big change. so i think this is th number one challenge that we have. mark:nd they are aggressively trying to move their borders toward your borders, aren't they, through syria, through lebanon, with hezbollah and so forth. >> what they want to do is develop a land bridge, iran, iraq, syria, lebanon, yemen, they are trying to encircle the middle east before they conquer it. and this continuum from tehran to tartusa in the mediterranean, they want to bring their army forward to syria which is right next to us. i said we'll prevent them from having military bases in syria.

air bases, naval basis. can you imagine iranian submarines in the mediterranean next to the six fleet or off the coast of haifa? we can't allow that, and we don't. we don't want iran's aggressive empire to have this continuity towards our borders and towards the mediterranean. that's a very great danger. they also are trying to arm their hezbollah proxies in lebanon with precision-guided missiles that could hit targets inside israel with the accuracy of five meters, ten meters. that's very dangerous. it's clear we won't tolerate that. this is all iran. everybody said after the nuclear deal that iran, coming out of the gate, would be a more moderate, more peaceful country. the exact opposite has happened. they used the relief of sanctions to get billions and billions of dollars, which they

used to fund this aggressive empire, to fund terrorism worldwide, to fund aggression, and i think it's important to prevent them from continuing these malevolent acts, and above all, i think it's critical f the security not only o israel but of the world, to prevent this rogue, islamic, terrorist-sponsored regime from having nuclear weapons, you can see on the other side of the world what a rogue regime with nuclear weapons does. 30 times you'll get the damage of iran. iran must be stopped. i'm just worried about the house and taking care of the boys. zach! talk to me.

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israel, is that right? >> that's definitely right. mark: because you have a common problem here. >> well, i think there are two processes, one is they recognize israel is not a threat, but actually their vital ally in countering the iranian threat. and secondly, over time, they got to understand what israel is about. it's technology. it's capacities to help them in civilian areas, they're interested in that, too. much more than people think. so as a result of these two forces that i described before, security on the one side, civilian technology on the other, there's been a dramatic change, i'd only call it a sea change or a fan change, you know, it's huge, it's just a complete change of -- in the relationship between israel and most of the arab world. and there are problems left. we have the palestinian issue that we still have to resolve, but in a way we're outflighting that.

for a while, not formally, it will take some time, but i draw a lot of hope from the new relationship of israel to the arab states and you're quite right, it is one factor, dominant factor in the change of heart is the recognition of the threat of iran. mark: you strongly oppose this iran deal. >> uh-huh. mark: you took a lot of heat from certain elements in our country and probably your country. >> i didn't notice that. mark: yeah, right? >> what are you talking about? mark: and committed this horrific offense of talking to the american people in congress, and in a very gentlemanly, polite way, explaining your objections to the iran deal. you can explain your objections to the iran deal and what the position of the israeli government is right now? >> yeah, i will, but i want to say one word. look, we've had tremendous relations with successful administrations. i appreciate the fact that

successive american governments supported israel, even when we had disagreements. i had big disagreements with president obama, but we signed a memorandum of understanding for military aid to israel for the next decade, and i appreciate that. but never hid the fact they had major disagreements with him, and the biggest disagreement was on iran. the disagreement was this: the nuclear deal, as structured, basically takes away the constraints on iran's nuclear program by a date certain. iran can do anything it wants in the interim, it can conquer country, which exactly is what they're doing, and they'll still get the removal of these limitations. i said, look, make sure, don't remove these restrictions until iran changes its behavior. in other words, condition the

lifting of those restrictions not on a change of calendar but a change of behavior, that's essentially what i said in the u.s. congress. that was rejected at the time because people said i was stopping, i was bringing war. i wasn't bringing war, war is coming to us as a result of the fact that iran is out of its cage. that's what's happening right now. and i think it's time. still time, to stop iran, to put restrictions back on, to say you have to change. you cannot devour one country after the other. that's what they said, they said iran will now join the community of nations after this nuclear deal. no. iran is just devouring the nations, that's what it's doing. i think you need a change of policy and very glad to see there has been such a change in washington by president trump. mark: let me remind you, every week night you can watch levin tv on crtv, give us a call at 844-levin-tv.

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. mark: iranian drone violates israeli sovereignty, and you said that is a big deal, and we're not going to permit that in israel. you can explain that? >> iran sent a drone to try to penetrate our territory.

we shot it down. we targeted the control center, manned by iranians, of this drone in syria. was in a syrian air base. and you know, we had some, you know, exchange of blows with the syrian army. we just won't tolerate this -- this violation of our sovereignty and of our security. so iran is trying to come close, we're pushing it back. i think they know we're serious. they understand that we back up our words with deeds. these are not flimsy red lines. they're real. we mean it. mark: are you getting support from the west, when you draw a line like that? or parts of the west? >> i think people understand week have these concerns. israel is not a huge country, it's a very powerful country, a very successful country, it has

a powerful army, but it's a tiny country. i think it's bigger than rhode island, but that's about it, it's about the size of new jersey. so we can't -- we don't have margins of error. i think people understand that and they respect that, but whether or not they understand it in parts of the west, we understand it. we just do what we have to do. in america, i think people get it. mark: palestinian issue, the phrase we use, the palestinian issue, the palestinian issue, why is it so difficult to come to terms with the palestinians? could part of the problem be is they're really fractionalized? you've got hamas and fattah, part of the problem they use hundreds of millions of dollars to fund and support of families

of terrorists and terrorism? what are the issues? >> what you said, mark. what does it mean when they take out about 10% of their budget, about $400 million a year to pay murderers who are sitting in jail for murdering jews. or the families of murderers who murder jews? what do they mean? $400 million a year. it sends a message to young palestinians. kill israelis and you will be rich. that's crazy. we don't do that. if somebody murders jews, arabs, doesn't make difference, israelis, palestinians, you go to jail. over there they're crowned as heroes, if they sit in our jail, they're given the stipends. what is this? so what's the problem? what does it indicate? >> it indicates the core of the problem. the core of the problem has never been the palestinian state. core of the problem has been the jewish state.

palestinians were offered, you know, in 1948, when israel was established, the u.n. set out a proposition. two states, jewish state and arab state. that's how they called it at the time, an arab state. and we accepted and the palestinians rejected it. in fact, the entire world rejected it and tried to snuff us out. we were tiny. israel is a few miles wide, it's nothing. we were able to survive. and still, when i look back, 70 years later and ask you why is there no peace? because the palestinians say we don't want a state next to israel. we want a state instead of israel. and every time they get a piece of territory like in gaza, we just walked out of, there gave it to them, they use it to fire thousands of rockets at us or dig terror tunnels or send suicide killers against us. and so i think the root cause of this conflict is the

persistent refusal of the palestinians to recognize a jewish state and any boundary, and it's about time that people confronted them and said something very simple to them, which is what i say to the palestinian leader abbas. i say recognize the jewish state, for god's sake. that's it. you know what they say? otherwise it would have been solved a long time ago. mark: i hear you're a fan of churchill, i'm a fan of churchill, lots of people fans of churchill. why are you a fan of churchill? >> he said nip it in the bud, nip bad things in the bud, and he had the courage to say it when it wasn't popular, and he was right. imagine what the world would have been like had he been

prime minister in 1935 and not a few years later. you may have avoided what he called the unnecessary war. you may have avoided the unnecessary holocaust, you know? when i look the the world today and i say, look, we can avoid the unnecessary war. we can avoid the unnecessary horrors by preventing iran from getting nuclear weapons. ♪ ♪ (vo) you can pass down a subaru forester. but you get to keep the memories. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. (avo) get 0% apr financing on all new 2018 subaru forester models. now through april 2nd. this is frank. sup!

this is frank's favorite record. this is frank's dog. and this is frank's record shop. frank knowns northern soul, but how to set up a limited liability company... what's that mean? not so much. so he turned to his friends at legalzoom. yup! they hooked me up. we helped with his llc, contracts, and some other stuff that's part of running a business. so frank can focus on the beat. you hear that? this is frank's record shop. and this is where life meets legal.

mark: let me ask you a question and i will end this. i'm a former chief of staff, chief of staff during the reagan administration and i'm confounded and i think americans are we read the stories coming out of your press in this

investigation and now they have this 1000 something or other, 3000, 4000 and i have followed your career and i thank you been investigated every day of your career but there are two things that struck me based on my own experience. number one i have a judge and a lawyer texting each other about how to conduct themselves including in the courtroom and i have never seen anything like that. number two, i don't know 243 former assistance for people in your government, are being oppressed by the investigators and they plead the crimes in the media says he is in trouble and then i read this and i say these people are being so i don't know how to pull that can be and i don't want to put you on the spot but what you think about that. prime minister: i want to think i want to comment on that but right now my only comment is this. mark, you are a veryceptive

man in more ways than one. mark: thank you. i want to thank you for appearing on the program and i am a great admirer of yours and god bless you and the state of israel. prime minister: god bless america. mark: amen to that. [♪] greg: all right. enough. i deserve it. so, i guess fire and fury works. >> a dramatic statement they are talking about. kim jong-un is talking about total denuclearization of the korean peninsula. what do you think about this? >> this is a moment very few of us thought we would ever see. >> the president agreed to meet with kim jong-un. it's difficult to overstate the