she's a hero. most watched, most trusted, most grateful you spent the evening with us. good night from washington. i am shannon bream. ♪ >> tucker: good evening and welcome to "tucker carlson tonight." last year, congressional republicans, you'll remember, passed a major tax reform bill. it accomplished a big goal for them and for many of their donors. but tax reform wasn't what republicans ran on in 2016, popular as it may be now. at the time, they ran, you will remember, on immigration and a promise to treat america's borders like they are actual borders and matter, like this was a real country. now, some republicans in congress want to betray that pledge in the most dramatic possible way. they're working tonight to pass a so-called discharge petition in the house. it would force votes on a slew of immigration measures, including some that would giveve amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants. how many?

we can't say, because when you push on the numbers a little bit it turns out that nobody actually knows how many illegal immigrants live in this country. and when we say nobody knows, we mean nobody knows to within like 10 million. the estimate you hear from almost everyone is 11 million. 11 million illegal aliens living in this country. that number comes from pew. it hasn't changed in a decade,in and that should be a tip-off, because over the last decade, illegal arrivals have continued and, now states are activelyan sabotaging deportation efforts. the real figure it turns out is much, much higher. i.c.e. director thomas homan admitted that much last year.ur so we know 11 million is not correct. so what's the real number?ir well, an unpublished paper by yale, three professors there, estimates there could be 23 million illegal immigrants in the united states. their low-end estimate is 17 million. even back in 2005, analysts at bear stearns guessed the real number was probably 20 millionat illegal in this country or more.

the bottom line is, we don't know exactly how many are here but some members of the house 2 republican caucus think it is a good idea to give amnesty to some of them, or maybe all of them. it's not what the voters wanted, but they apparently don't care. congressman jeff denham is a republican representing california.. he joins us tonight. congressman, thanks for coming out. >> tucker, thanks for having me back again. >> tucker: shouldn't we figure out how many illegal immigrants are in this country before we encourage more to come? >> what we should do is actually secure our border. and the only way we will get the border secured is actually working together to pass something off the floor. the president continues to talk about 25 billion and secure border making sure these caravans aren't coming across, stop the catch and release program. this is the only way we actually bring up a debate and actually put something on the president's desk. >> tucker: but wait a second. giving amnesty to people encourages more people to come here illegally. we know that. it was tried in 1986 and that

was its effect. it's the effect every single time.it before we get more people coming across and border security nobody takes seriously because it's always been a joke, why shouldn't we know how many are here? and why doesn't congress determined to find out how many are here? it seems like kind of a baseline issue. >> yeah, tucker, rather than just doing a census to figure how many people are here, why don't we stop them from coming here in the first place? doing nothing means another 500,000 people will cross our border every single year. i've been in the majority now for eight years. that's 4 million people. shouldn't we stop right now and actually do what the president is asking us for? even something the democrats had proposed a few years ago and actually provide the funding, build the border security, do the surveillance, make sure that we actually have a guarantee to the american public that we've stopped this influx across ourur southern border. >> tucker: okay, how about this, would you support punishing any employer caught employing anis illegal alien? really punishing them. checking every employer in america with e-verify universal and making sure that nobody

is employing illegal aliens in lieu of american workers. why not do that starting, i don't know, tomorrow? >> as you know, any government program, especially a new government program that needs technology, doesn't start tomorrow. i do support e-verify.ll i do support a comprehensive -- >> tucker: universal e-verify? >> yeah, absolutely. but we have to fix the rest of our immigration process first. right now, we have said, republicans have said for quite some time now we will not pass a comprehensive bill, but yet that's what's being proposed today. i want to support what the president has talked about dealing with border security, dealing with our dreamers right now because they are in ang different situation after following their government and signing up for daca. we need to resolve that issue. >> tucker: oh. following our government?t we encouraged them to come here illegally with their parents? >> no. we had a president that passed an executive order, which i disagreed with, but nevertheless the president of the united states passed an executive order that alloweded

daca recipients to step forward. these kids who have graduated from our high schools, who have grown up in this country, who know of no other country or no other home, they've done what their country has asked them to do and they've signed up for this executive order under daca. >> tucker: what do you mean "their country"? it's not their country. they are not citizens. okay, okay, okay, okay. let's just back up. >> if they've been here for decades, if they've graduated from our high school with our kids -- >> tucker: i feel sorry for them. well, hold on. right. i'm just saying in a world where there are a lot of priorities, why is this your number one priority? in your state, you got more than 100,000 people living on the sidewalk. those are american citizens. why don't you deal with an problem like that first or secure the borders first before you start passing out citizenship to people here illegally? y i don't understand. >> that's kind of an argument that i get from some of the liberal networks, why would you have a priority or this priority? i believe on addressing a number of different issues at the same time. >> tucker: what are you doing about the 100,000 californians living outside tonight? okay, look, giving citizenship

and voting rights to people who are here illegally is not a way of securing our border. so why wouldn't you secure the border first? >> because we have two issues that the president has asked for, including his four pillarse but the main thing he continuese to talk about, the president asks for a solution on daca and for border security. i believe that we can give him both. >> tucker: okay. let's leave the president out of this. just as someone who is hired to represent american citizens, speak slowly so i can understand, why would we give citizenship to anybody here illegally, give voting rights tz anyone whose family snuck in, who came here illegally, before not a single new personon crossing the border illegally? until you can look your voters in the face and say our border is secure. now we can maybe give citizenship to illegals. >> sure and that dynamic changed under the previous president. first of all, i don't believe in giving anybody anything. this would be an earned pathway. by all of the different bills,io it would be at least a 10 to 12

year process. you first sign up for five yeara of a temporary green card that would allow you to work or go ts school or sign up for the military. and at the end of five years, after you passed the background check, you have paid your fine and your fee, you've actually proven that you are noter on government subsidies and you are out there working or goingou to school or serving your country, at the end of five years -- >> tucker: none of that's real. o none of that is real. and you know that. none of that will happen. right. >> what you are talking about is another five years, doing it all over again, so it's a 12-year process, ten years before you would actually be able to get a legal permanent resident card. >> tucker: why not do it like everybody else does it? millions of people want to come here. why would you give a path to citizenship for people here illegally ahead of people who are waiting in line, obeying our laws?r i don't understand. i'm confused, i guess. >> it's a 12-year process and i believe that this earned pathway, this earned 12-year process would put you at the back of the line.

but certainly someone who's been here, who's graduated from our schools that has been in our community that has followed the executive order under obama should have that opportunity. >> tucker: okay, i guess. >> doing nothing is not a solution. i'm elected to lead. i don't get an opportunity just to sit back and wait and see what happens. >> tucker: you know what, as a congressman representing california, you got a lot ofd problems. >> california has a lot of problems. yes.lo >> tucker: yeah, you do. so, like, why would this be anywhere near the top of your priority list? i'm just completely confused. these are not american citizens. you've got tens of millions of hurting american citizens in you're putting these peopleom ahead of them and i don't understand it. >> you are elected to lead and we got to do something and the president campaigned on border security. the only way we are going to get that, because you know the rulei of this house and the senate, you've got to get 60 votes. the only way you'll get the 60 members on a bipartisan borderhe security bill is with a solution that is equally as important that the president of the

united states is asking for. >> tucker: congressman, thank you very much, i appreciate it. >> good to be with you again. >> tucker: thank you.uc president met with californiad lawmakers today and with police to discuss the effect of sanctuary city laws. during that meeting the president blasted ms-13 members and blamed sanctuary city laws for protecting them. here's part of it. >> we are taking people out of the country. you wouldn't believe how bad these people are. these aren't people.e these are animals and we are taking them out of the country at a level and a rate that has never happened before. mexico does nothing for us.he they do nothing for us. >> tucker: kristin gaspar is on the san diego county board of supervisors and she joins us tonight. thanks a lot for coming on. what is the effect of these policies from your perspective on san diegans for example? >> as you say, california has a lot of problems and one of our biggest problems is actually our governor who is supporting

putting criminals back out onbi our streets. today the roundtable with president trump we had 16 leaders from across california. people are pushing back on our governor saying enough is enough.ro we've reached a tipping point in our state and we heard story after story of the impact back in all of our communities. for a community like san diego, human trafficking, drug trafficking. weapons trafficking across our border because they are insecure. and i shared with the president a story about a young man, alexander mason, who lost his life at the age of 27. he was murdered, shot and killed by an illegal immigrant who had already been deported from our country. now that killer is lying in tijuana, holding out in a motel. we know his location and there isn't a thing we can do about it here in the u.s. >> tucker: i'm confused. he's been charged, i assume, with murder in the united states. he's in tijuana, which is why

across the border. why aren't mexican authorities helping? >> the process is terrible. it's a long road for this poor family. this could be a multi-year process because mexico does not have the death penalty, our own d.a. has to sign off and pledged that when he's back in theen united states that he cannot face the death penalty in our country where he committed this heinous crime. >> tucker: do people support these policies? we act as if california is unified in support, i guess, of its governor's policies, your attorney general's policies. are your constituents in favor of sanctuary policies? >> california is not a lost cause yet, as evidenced by the thousands of emails that have poured into my office. each and every time we have a vote come up, as an elected leader, you will get somebody that communicate with you. really the most i've seen is several hundred over an issue and in this case i have

literally 3,000 plus emails thai have come to my office, thank-you notes, postcards, you name it and the very thin stack of about less than 50 emails of people who think what i'm doing is truly terrible. >> tucker: think that the governor really should protect criminals over american citizens. demented. thank you, i appreciate it, good luck. two former intelligence officials say that obama's cia director john brennan lied about the steele dossier in the boldest and most transparent way. details on that next. way. details on that next. people would stare. psoriasis does that. it was tough getting out there on stage. i wanted to be clear. i wanted it to last. so i kept on fighting. i found something that worked. and keeps on working. now? they see me. see me.

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>> tucker: we've got an important public safety announcement tonight about the creepy porn lawyer. if you see him outside your window after dark, do not call him out, absolutely do not approach him. he may be dangerous. he will certainly be oleaginous. fortunately you are unlikely to personally encounter him unless you live very close to a cnn or msnbc studio. an updated account of his television appearances by the media research center found that the creepy porn lawyer has been interviewed 147 times since march 7th. that's more than two appearances a day, every day. 74 of those televised interviews were on cnn, they are proud of d that. 57 were on msnbc. if you want to remain safe, we i advise two courses of action. first, remain there bright lights in the way from empty alleyways and second stay very close to a fox studio in your area. he has proved totally unwilling to even get anywhere near that. thank heavens. on twitter, you may read former

cia head john brennan spouting off about the political news of the day, attacking the president's dishonesty, he says. it turns out brennan himself is a liar. he's been caught lying. odd for a government official. last year, for example, brennan told congress the infamous steele dossier had no influence at all on the intel community's claim that russia interfered in the 2016 election. here's a selection.. >> do you know who commissioned the steele dossier? >> i don't. >> did the cia rely on it? >> no. >> why not? >> because we didn't. it wasn't part of the corpus of intelligence information that we had. it was not in any way used as a basis for the intel'sfo community assessment that was done. >> tucker: ooh, busted! liar!me by the way, brennan, you should know this, is an nbc and msnbc paid contributor now, needless to say. two top former intel officials

dispute his claim. the one you just heard that the dossier formed no part of the corpus of intelligence used by our government to spy on the trump campaign. retired national security agency michael rogers and former director of national intelligence jim clapper both admit now that the steele dossier and its clinton campaign-funded allegations did in fact influence the intel community assessment. we knew that, but it's nice to hear it confirmed. mollie hemingway is senior editor at the federalist and she joins us tonight. i know you've been following this carefully. a lot of these stories seem to lead back to this guy, john brennan. you would think as the former head of the cia, he is someone you would be able to trust, but he seems not only a liar, but an inept one. am i misreading this?st >> we have a problem with multiple heads of intelligence agencies, and that does includee brennan, who has a history of lying, specifically about spying on american citizens.de it's difficult to hold him, take him seriously but we've also had

problems with falsehoods being said also by james clapper, who gave inconsistent testimony about his leaking to the media. and we've also had problems with james comey himself, whether he understands what a leak is anded how he has been involved in it. but one of things that's interesting is clapper and comey have been so much a part of this story and we have seen their names a great deal, but brennan has been able to kind of stay out of the limelight until recently where people are starting to piece together just how integral he was to the entire russian narrative. so for instance --ow >> tucker: please go ahead. >> he actually launched the investigation. he has bragged about how he was involved in launching a the investigation. he also was really key in briefing harry reid, which harry reid has said he understood that he was being briefed by brennan specifically so he would leak that information and get it out to the media and also pressure james comey and then these other things that are interesting that are coming out now about how he claims that the dossier wasn't used, which made no sense

already because we know the dossier was used to secure a wiretap against someone in the russia investigation. and it stands to reason that itt would have been included. but now we actually have people who do have a little bit more integrity, particularly mike rogers, saying that of course it was used in the intelligencewh community assessment. >> tucker: it's becoming clear that a lot of the secrecy surrounding these activities is designed not to protect the united states from foreign threats but to protect the misdeeds of the people gathering the intelligence. it's cya. >> it does seem that that has become a big part of the operation. whether people got in over their head, whether they were led t astray by brennan and they did things that maybe they shouldn't have done, it does seem that a lot of what we seen in the last few months is about attempting to keep people from finding out the full extent of what was happening.e today "the new york times" did report based on just a widespread leaking from people who were involved in the investigation that, yes, people are now admitting they were spying on the trump campaign in a fairly widespread fashion. it wasn't just carter page.

it was four top officials. they weren't just using fisasa wiretaps.as they were also using national security letters and human intelligence. at least one human intelligence source. this is busting wide open and i think people will demand t little bit more about just what the fbi and other intelligence agencies were thinking when they began spying on the politicalma campaign of a major party.t >> tucker: liberals used to be worried about things like this. not anymore. mollie hemingway, thank you. thanks for that. >> thank you. >> tucker: university ofth colorado is charging students money and giving them credit for their work in "witnessing whiteness." we will tell you what that means, next. ll you what that

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>> tucker: university of colorado at colorado springs is offering students credit if they create the series of "witnessing whiteness" workshops in their hometown. the program is offered by the school's graduate certificatee program in diversity social justice and inclusion. that is a department name thatte should strike fear into all who hear it, and for good reason, because among other things thehe program focuses on the alleged i traits of the "dominant whitee culture." t these traits include "superficiality" and "extreme exploitation of labor andrt resources for profit." david burstein is the founder of

the group run for america. he wrote the book "fast future, how the millennial generation is shaping our world." thanks for coming on. >> good to be with you.ap >> tucker: are you surprised that racist crap like this at exists in the open in 2018? >> i don't know if i would necessarily call it that. there is a wide experience in america that is different from a black experience in america. anybody who lives in america knows that those two things are true. >> tucker: that's true. >> while i don't necessarily agree with every way these folks are going about it, i think it's the beginning of a conversation about what it means to have a white experience. >> it's not the beginning of a conversation, it's the beginning of a series of attacks on people based on their skin color. to say that white people, whitev culture exploits in an unusually aggressive way the labor of others, that's an attack. by the way, is it true? t is white culture more likely to do this than, i don't know,

chinese culture? i don't know. but i know racism, textbook definition when i see it and it's lumping or group of people together on the basis of their appearance and immutable characteristics and attacking them. that's what it is. why is this not racist? >> i think the way in which it is presented certainly is not the direction that you want to go if you want to actually do what i think really should be done, which is actually have a conversation about what whitee privilege actually means in this society. you and i both know as white men sitting here that there is such a thing as white privilege. >> tucker: i don't know that, actually. there are immigrant -- nonwhite immigrant groups that have on average higher annual incomes than average white americans. it's more complicated than you and other glib apologists for racism suggest that it is. you can't generalize about people on the basis of their skin tone, right? i thought. or can you? >> of course you can't generalize, but there are trends that we have seen.

it would be disingenuous for us to suggest that there aren't a larger number of say white people than black people in this country who have benefited tremendously from theirum privilege. i think that would be a disingenuous statement over time and that there aren't more might people who exploit it. >> tucker: are you comfortable making generalizations about other racial and ethnic groups t that are negative? any generalizations? go ahead and try one. you just said that white privilege is real. i'm serious. if we are going to have a honest conversation that you are calling for, then i call on you to be honest and making negative generalizations about any other racial or ethnic group in this country. go ahead. >> i think that -- i see where e you're trying to go. >> tucker: no, you don't need to think anything, i'm asking you will you make a negative generalization about another racial group? >> i'm not going to be baited into -- >> i'm not bating you. i'm asking you a question.

will you or won't you? the answer is no. why? >> the reality is when we try and talk about understanding things that are going on whether they are generations or groups of people, we make generalizations in order to have a conversation because, of course, every individual person -- >> tucker: hold on, i'm inviting you to make a negative generalization as you just did about one group about any other group. there are many groups in this country. sometimes we generalize, i get it. you want to have an honest conversation, i get it. let's do that now on live tv. again, why don't you make a single negative generalization about any other racial or ethnic group? i give you the floor, i will be quiet as you speak, go ahead and do that. >> i think there's -- being made about the fact that they are now in this country. we have people who are benefiting tremendously from ahe huge move towards diversity and inclusion programs that are designed to prioritize people of other ethnicities.

>> tucker: which people? be a lot more specific. make a generalization about another culture. e >> african-american, latinor: people over white people.io >> tucker: you are critiquing a program. that's a program that you're critiquing and i think you are right.t. critique the culture as you just did white culture, whatever that is. but you are assuming it's real, so generalize about another racial ethnic group's culture. >> i think you are missing an important distinction. >> tucker: you are missing the important distinction, this onli goes in one direction and, you bully people by making generalizations that are not strictly speaking true and if you are not on board with it you are a racist and then you get to attack those people. that doesn't apply to any other group which is itself racist.n do you acknowledge that? >> i see where you're going with this argument, tucker, but i think the reality is. >> tucker: i'm not going anywhere. i just said it out loud. >> there are a group of people who have been systemically oppressed in this country for a

long period of time and those are people who are overwhelmingly people who are african-american and latino. there's a long history of this. you and i both went -- a >> tucker: you are changing the conversation. you said it was okay to attack one culture but it's not okay to attack other cultures and i'm asking you why that is. an 18-year-old college student did not participate in jim crow, did not participate in slavery, most of the time not knowingly participating in oppression of anybody. but it's okay to attack a person because his ancestors did something bad but that's not okay to do to other groups because why? you don't have an answer. no one ever calls you on this and i just did. >> i think you're really missing the point here. just because you want to say that someone is being criticized for the basis of what a culture is doing, that that's racist. >> tucker: collective race guilt is wrong. it's racist to attack people for

things they didn't do because of the way they look. it's really simple. you are on board with it. i'm not. unfortunately we are out of time. david, thank you, i appreciate it.e up next, a full year and millions of dollars has been spent investigating russia, but it turns out russia is not the real problem with espionage, china is. part two of our china series is next. next. how do you win at business? next. stay at la quinta.

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i'm all-business when i, travel... even when i travel... for leisure. so i go national, where i can choose any available upgrade in the aisle - without starting any conversations- -or paying any upcharges. what can i say? control suits me. go national. go like a pro. >> tucker: for more than a year, the only espionage threat you've heard about is russia, even though the worst thing anyone has pinned on vladimir putin so far is asp handful of dopey facebook ads that almost nobody saw. but just because the russian threat is grotesquely overblown doesn't mean that foreign spying isn't a problem for us. it definitely is a problem. chinese spying is the real problem. china is our main rival on the world stage. the chinese government spies on us relentlessly. on our companies, on our military, on our government.

hundreds of thousands of chinese nationals live in the united states, most of them are harmless, but some large numberr of them are spies. in march of 2016, for example, a chinese national pleaded guilty to helping hack the computer networks of major t defense contractors. data related to the c-17 strategic transport aircraftom and the f-35 fighter jet was stolen and made its way back to china. it's not the first time the chinese have stolen vital military secrets. they have done it a lot. their industrial espionage is, if anything, even more aggressive. earlier this year, a chinese wind turbine company was convicted of paying an engineer to steal secrets from an american manufacturer. to add insult to injury, after stealing the information, the chinese company then canceled $800 million in contracts. this is not uncommon. the u.s. trade representative estimates the overall cost from china's theft of american intellectual property, industrial secrets, could reach $600 billion every single year. that's almost as much as all

annual trade between this country and china. chinese businesses are themselves a front for more conventional espionage, since major chinese companies are by definition closely intertwined with the communist party and the chinese military, in many cases. intelligence experts warn that the chinese mobile companies zte could easily begin spying on any american who owns their products were they allowed to expand their share of the u.s. market, as they are currently trying to do. those are just cell phones. how about email and other electronic communications? according to a high level government source who spoke to us, the chinese government already has direct or indirect control of much of the architecture of our domestic internet here in this country.y. if china wants to know what youo are doing, they probably already can. how did that happen exactly? how did we get to this place? slowly and intentionally on the part of china. our leaders meanwhile were not paying attention to the chinese threat. some of them knew about it but didn't care. they are getting very rich

from china. not coincidentally some of these very same people are the ones now telling you that russia is the biggest threat we face. it goes without saying that they are lying and they know they are lying, but what they're reallyha doing is trying to cover their tracks. bill gertz has been covering the threat from china longer than almost any other american journalist. he's a senior editor at "the washington free beacon" and the author of "iwar, war and peace in the information age." bill gertz joins us tonight. thanks for coming on. >> good to be here. >> tucker: give us a sense if you can, i know it's a complex topic, but give us a sense of the scale of chinese spying on american industries, government, and our military. >> it's a three-pronged threat. you have traditional spying. right now in alexandria, there are two ex-cia officers who are under investigation or being prosecuted for spying-related activities in china. then you have the cyber threat, and this is a massive theft of technology from both the government and the private sector.

and last are what they call the nontraditional collectors, that's the 350,000 chinese students here, researchers, academics, and they are all working together as much a secret government -- chinese government directed program to steal all the most modern technology. they are going after the cutting edge stuff right now. artificial intelligence and quantum computing. >> tucker: so who is minding the store? who is protecting american industrial secrets and military data? >> well, it's the fbi's job to go after chinese spies. just this week, bill evanina, the head of the counterintelligence unit called the national security counterintelligence center said that not enough has been done to deal with this chinese espionage and technology collection threat. and he basically upgraded the threat. during the obama period where they didn't go after this at all, now he says it's a grave threat to u.s. national securitd and it's primarily in this

economic sphere that they areow going after our secrets as well as military technology as well. >> tucker: given that the chinese economy is about to surpass america's in size, w assuming it hasn't already, they are obviously our main rival in the world stage. why didn't the obamama administration for eight years respond to what is clearly the preeminent threat we face? >> it's the same thing with thea russia probe. they knew about the russia interference going back to 2015 and did nothing. basically it's been a passive approach. they rely on just diplomatic niceties and they basically ignored this growingoa intelligence threat that, as you said, the massive amounts have been totaled between 200 billion and 600 billion annually in our most cutting edge technologies. >> tucker: you would think that american industry fromge whom this data is being stolen

would be complaining in public, but they are not.li >> no, they are not. there was a meeting last year with a lot of the tech chiefs with trump in the white house and basically all of them saide you've got to do something to cut off this chinese theft of technology. they are just pillaging everything that silicon valley has and there has been literally nothing done to try and stopop that. >> tucker: absolutely terrifying.op very quickly, do you think, almost a rhetorical question, but the relentless focus onuc russia hacking our election, whatever that means, does that detract from our awareness and our ability to respond tore china? >> absolutely. russia does pose a threat, but it's a different level of a threat. all you have to do is look at the two economies. the russian economy is seven times smaller than the chinese economy, so they are not as great a threat as china. so it's really important that the united states government take action to stop chinese espionage. >> tucker: yeah, like tonight. bill gertz, thank you. you've been reporting on this for longer than most people have been paying attention,ke appreciate it. >> thank you.

>> tucker: senator kirsten gillibrand of new york says if the lehman brothers were called lehman sisters instead theou entire 2008 financial collapse never would have happened. more from the genius of new york state coming up.wo comu introducing walkabout wednesdays. it's a great day for a great deal! tender, center-cut sirloin or chicken on the barbie, fries, a draft beer or a coke, all for just $9.99. only for a limited time. so don't walk, run to outback. ♪

>> tucker: the 2008 financial collapse was huge and complex. its causes are many, bad risk models, bad government policies for sure, bad business decisions, probably other things too. speaking on a panel of feminists yesterday, senate nonentity kristen gillibrand identified another cause you probably hadn't even thought of, gender. men are the problem she said. here's what she said about the collapse of the investment bank

lehman brothers. watch. >> that's why the empowerment of women is so important throughout the economy and throught leadership in his office is because we don't value women in society and that's just a fact. if it wasn't lehman brothers but lehman sisters we might not have had the financial collapse. >> tucker: tammy bruce is a radio host and president of independence women's voice and she joins us tonight. i feel almost mean in playing that. i don't dislike kristenjo gillibrand. i i felt sorry for her watching it because it didn't make any sense, it was kind of sad, but i thought maybe there's something deeper here and since you are our resident deep person i thought i would run it by you. what you think of that? >> i can get as deep as just saying it was stupid. it's insulting, it is sexist and it's an argument that misogynists make. what she was referring to is a study that said because women are risk averse, that they would have taken less chances and so lehman brothers would have been just fine. this argument though puts all women into a category of expecting their behavior to be

based on their gender. and it is gender stereotypical. it is based in a sexist expectation that women are going to behave a certain way because of their sex, and this is the other argument that misogynistst that women are risk-averse and as a result they are more frightened by things, they are less apt to take risks. women's lives are filled with risk. when we wake up in the morning, it's risky. we give birth to children, it's risky.ch we change the academy, we change the military. everything we do every day is a risk and we do it well. but the arguments by misogynists are that by pinning all women together through their gender is it's why women don't makey history. it's that women are not brave enough to do great art. that we aren't interesting enough to invent things. that we are not brave enough to be military leaders.s.

she's arguing there through this risk-averse gender-based stereotype that a woman could also not be a president because it's the same framework. and this is what we have to reject and so of course it's insulting and it is misogynist and sexist to boot. >> tucker: i guess i'm looking at it from the other angle, which is why is she attacking men? i'm a man. i have a son who is an adult man. he didn't do anything to tank the banks.s. you know what i mean?th he didn't profit from credit default swaps. why are you blaming a huge group for the sins of a few? >> because it's what you've recognized repeatedly and i think exclusively. it's this argument by the left about toxic masculinity. it is about condemning and indicting all men for simplyhe being men. and her argument in order to counter that, you can't arguee what feminists -- at least my generation did, that women can do what men do. we in fact are very similar. our styles might be more different but women can

accomplish what men can accomplish. what she's arguing is there's toxic masculinity and that is a foundational theory now of the left. we have to counteract it by saying that the peaceful, simple woman who is not as aggressive is the answer. this now condemns them into putting women into one category in order to succeed at condemning all men, and what they end up doing is saying that women can't be president, women can't be a leader, -- well, look, we had one president who behaved this way and it was barack obama. a man who was too afraid to confront isis, too afraid of his own redline with syria. too afraid to really govern and help the economy. too afraid to make change around the world. that's what she's advocating for and it certainly is not a feminine trait. >> tucker: i don't blame all women for kristen gillibrand. [laughs] k >> thank you.

>> tucker: i'm above that. thank you, it's great to talk to you. >> my pleasure, thank you. >> tucker: obesity is an actual crisis in america. how did it happen, by the way? oh, did the government cause it by pushing bogus science instead of facts? yeah, that's true, actually. no one ever says that, but wein are going to. details ahead. that, but

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>> tucker: for decades, americans have been getting fatter and fatter, and honestly, it's probably not good past a certain point. how did this happen is the question. the government has been trying to improve our health for an awfully long time. they issued dietary guidelines and if you follow those guidelines, you get thin and healthy, right? when we look carefully at this guidelines, we conclude that we make things worse because they ne wrong. a science journalist, author of the book "the big fat surprise" joins us tonight. thank you for coming on. >> thank you for having me. >> tucker: this seems like one of the stories that everyone

would be talking about, it seems like a scandal. government dietary guidelines have the opposite effect of what they said they would. is that true? if so, how did that happen? >> it's obviously a controversial subject, which is why you don't hear more about it. the reality is, obesity in america was continuing along at a very reasonable low until 1980 and then it turned sharply upward. what happened in 1980? in 1980, the u.s. government launched the u.s. dietary guidelines for allau americans. those dietary guidelines told everybody in america to eat over 50% of their calories mainly as green. greens fattened cattle. it turns out that eating 7-11 servings of bread every day, what we have been told to do, has also proven to be fattening to americans. >> tucker: delicious, though. speak it we've had those policies for 40 years.

the conventional argument for why we are fat and diabetic is a nation nowadays ever increasing that it's our fault, the fault of americans for failing to follow the guidelines are not exercising. one of the things i did was look very closely at the best available government data, and what you see is that americans have actually really faithfully follow the guidelines in every single category you can look at. red meat, since 1970, red meat is done by 20%, animal fat is number 27, but her down by 9%, home bulked up by 79%, and we he increased everything we are supposed increased. 25% more vegetables, 35% more fruit. 28% more grains, 80% more probably unsaturated vegetable oils asve we have been told. on the exercise aside, no more than 50% of americans meet the government physical activity guidelines, which is up from

about 34% in 2005. in fact, americans are doing a really good job. they are exercising more r and eating -- >> tucker: following the instruction how amazing. thank you for that.us [laughs] we are out of time. you summarized it perfectly, maybe we should rethink the next set of instructions. thanks a lot. >> thanks for having me. >> tucker: nbc news may sue have a new chairman according to recent reports to people who run comcast, wanting to have andy black replaced, apparently, nobody expects him to finish out the year. we want to presume to tell comcast whether he should keep his job or not. here's one suggestion. if he is leaving anyway, why not stop lying about the "access hollywood" tape? he leaked it, he knows he did, everyone else did, they did it

to influence the the presidentl election. the foundation of any news organizationon is honesty so why not be honest for once? that would be a great improvement. that's it for tonight. good night from washington. sean hannity is next. >> sean: tucker, great show as always. it's so insane, so much news, it is hard to get it in and the full hour but we will try.o welcome to "hannity." mueller's witch hunt, if it was yet another massive blow, one of trump's attorney, rudy giuliani sing the special counsel won't indict the president. we've been saying that because guess what, mueller never have the legal standing to do to the first place. we'll explain. also, president trump responding to kim jong un's right to pull out of the june 12th summit and he is refusing to back away from the denuclearization of the korean peninsula and the media, the left promised a smoking gun. remember, the trump tower meeting between donald trump jr. and the russian lawyer, okay, the senat