much, thank you for your guests for joining us, thank you for joining us. see you next sunday. ♪ mark: hello america, i am mark levin this is "life, liberty and levin," i have a great guest, how are you, sir. >> i am good. mark: a great honor. >> thank you. mark: i have been a fan of yours for years and years, first time we're meeting. >> it mutual. mark: thank you. you are know author, columnist. you have done documentary films, a senior fellow at stan ford institution, you specialize institute of race relation, you were born in chicago.

january 1st, 1946, your father of a truck triecher drivt your mother while working for congress of racial equality. you hole hold a ma in social ge latest book a great book, shame, how america's past sins have polarized our country, you are i courageous man in my view, you write things beautifully, your logic is outstanding. >> well, thank you. mark: and yet, some people consider controversial, i consider is common sense, you wrote a few months ago in "wall street journal." on this so-called protest with the football players taking the knee during the national anthem. >> mm-hmm. mark: among other things you said, not surprising then. that the plaque footbal the bla,

you said protest is something thayou look at jackie robinson n sports. and you say, these surprise was that is departmen done work thi, they misread historic moment, they were not speaking truth to power, they were figures of pathos, mindedly loyal on a black ir identity that had run s course, you say, protest is sometimes necessary to get votes and equal rights. but this one fell on deaf ears. >> well, protest is central to the evolution of black american culture. it was protest that really finally won our freedom for us. beyond that, it, it interesting

to note that it expanded the idea of democracy. democracy had all theory thinking, before had never dealt with the clash between race and racism and democracy. well it was civil right movement, it was martin luther king who said you have to take go beyond race even, that democracy is universal. so that is a big part of the black american identity. and it is sort of seen as the test of your authenticity as a black, yet this protest in nfl made the point this was fruitless at-this-point. and i think that central issue behind what you are talking about is the fact that the

oppression of black americans is over with. >> over with. >> over with. i grew up, it was -- we never thought there would be an en eno oppression. i never thought i would live in a society that was not segregated. it happened there are a few exceptions, will racism every completely go away? no it is a part of the -- as i say in the article, it is indemmic on the human condition as stupid tie. stupidity is. we always have to be on guard, wire at a point where old fashion method of protest is obsolete. we need a lot of things. but we don't need that any more.

we're at a point now where we can -- we're a free people, we can pursue our lives as we would like to. mark: you point out in the article, your thought process, that this is part of the issue. we are a free people. we are all a free people. >> yeah. mark: we're not an opressed people, blacks are not an opressed people and jews are not, this is america. this is a history. but that is gone. and you say, so some people are having difficulty coping with liberty. what do you mean? >> well, when you think about it black-american culture involved over three and a half centuries every minute under which they lived under oppression, they

adapted to dealing with the fact that there is freedoms were going to be cut off. they had to somehow make a life within all of those restriction, they did. part of the -- i think black-american culture is nothing less than heroic. they evolved you know look at contribution like music and so forth. achieve great things. the one thing we never had to do was to deal with sphree freedomt was the thing we did not. that is not in our culture. in a vivid, clear, sense as it would be if we had been free, truly free. we now are free. freedom is the rightly say, a burden, a difficulty. it puts the individual in the

position of being much more responsible for them sellers, there -- themselves their over development as individuals that iis new for us. idea is that still black unity, we can be unified. that is the way ahead. not any more. you take your ahead. that and i think the. that is the new and stunning really fact of american life that we're now facing and having to deal with. mark: the football players. they are successful, they are wealthy in comparison to other citizens. >> they beat me. mark: a lot of people. and they are treated with great respect. i mean in terms of the fans love them, they want their autograph, they buy things with their numbers and names, yet they

protest. what are they protesting? >> they are just stuck. you know, one of the ways we adapted to not being free was to think our group identity was again the way we were being black, and being down with the cards, that is the way -- down with the cause, unity was everything. and if you are black, you are going to do what blacks are always done to one degree or another, you are going to protest. well, the irony is that you are making $15 million a year. you are making vast amounts of money doing successful in every way. you are free. there is nothing for you to protest. nothing. >> how about social justice? and equality? and phrasing like this? i hear that is what people say they are protesting. >> they have got all social

justice you need. again, i lived through segregation, we have freedom today is absolutely remarkable. we as a people have not yet absorbed that. we have not absorbed the fact that our problem is no longer racism, our problem is freedom. we have to lerp t learn to deale freedom, only way to do that, we have to be grounded in individual responsibility. that is the only chance you have with freedom. to take charge of your life and make a life for yourself. raveralph, ellison, talks abouts the group is the gift of its individuals, the goal is not to create the uncreated conscience of your race, but to create the uncreated conscience of your

face. and that is is 50 years ago that is on the money. that is in his great book. >> d jim: d mark: do you think part of problem is rally group think, group rights, you get it a lot in the universities and colleges, on television, a lot. politicians. is that part of the problem? >> what i think are you are pointing to is maybe the overriding problem, we don't talk about it very much at all, that is white guilt. and that keeps feeding whatever blacks are doing, it is not helping. thinking of themselves as

nothing more than members of a group, of protesting. it is white guilt that keeping feeding that, what is white guilt? do i make up in the morning and feel guilty about black americans? no. white guilt does not have anything to do with actual feelings of guilt. white guilt is ay the terror of being seen as a racist. as a bigot. now pervades american life. all our social policy, our culture, it is all touched by this anxiety in most of white america. understandably, given america's history. they are vulnerable, they have this vulnerability to being disarmed of moral authority. by being called a racist. i can use it as a weapon, i can

say, i went to the levin show, let me tell you how i was treated. and big -- it is going to explode. so it constitutes that is black power, white guilt is black power. they are virtually one in the same, one of the big problems we have we talk about universities and political correctness and so forth. these are all ways in which white americans say, i'm innocent. i don't feel this way. i am not a bigot. i am not a racist. i am innocent. and white guilt causes this drive to prove and establish innocence. and so then we have a whole generation of black leaders who do one thing, and one thing only, milk white guilt. and we're at a moment, i thought

this protest that was telling in that regard. kind of appointed -- kind of at a point in which culture meeting turning, it was a fruitless protest, it achieved nothing. mark: could the culture be turning? but elites digging in? >> that is wha well said. mark: more and more, i watch the debates on television. people very easily almost casualty call people they disagree with racist. if they disagree with a political agenda or a particular issue, that is come from the left, what do you make of it? >> 'is white guilt, it is meant to disarm you of moral authority. when they scream racism all of the time, saying you're a racist. you don't have moral authority

to bieto deal with the issue or problem you are dealing with, because you are a racist, of there you are mor morally comp myself compromised. and i -- and this is seduction people on left have fallen for, they are given the award idea of their innocence. mark: i want too 25 -- too purss when we return, you can watch me on levin tv, crt v .com, give us a call 844-levin-tv, we would love to have you, we'll be right back. for any adventure at the lexus golden opportunity sales event. experience amazing at your lexus dealer.

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want to test drive the latest devices? be our guest. want to save on mobile? just ask. want to demo the latest innovations and technology? do it here. come see how we're making things simple, easy, and awesome. plus come in today and ask about xfinity mobile, a new kind of network designed to save you money. visit your local xfinity store today. mark: shelby steele, i want to pick up on this issue of white guilt, and use of wort word rac. i find it to be ideological tool of the left, more and more, if they disagree with a particular issue. i am generalizing. they disagree with a tissue issn you are are a racist.

someone can be called a racist who has no history. do you see this? >> absolutely. it is the other side of that is because whites are still so vulnerable to that charge of being a racist, that is the power that the entire all of the power of the american left is based on that guilt. that susceptiblity, that terror of being seen as racist. hillary clinton and her deplorable statement, now famous, as a perfect example of sayingnes these people are bigos and racists. i am innocent. you vote for me, you prove your innocence. i offer you an identity of innocence. being liberal.

being left is moran of an -- more of an identity than anything else. and those other people, are contempt able. and so it works on the cultural level. now i think that the irony is that this is beginning to fade. you see signs of it cracking at-this-point. that people don't take maxine waters seriously any more. that is not martin luther king. he came along there were obvious terrible things, terrible discrimination behind every word he spoke. and everyone knew it there was no debate. racism was everywhere. what the era of maxine some people now call it, there is nothing behind the protest.

mark: if you have a political mind set, a political party or ideology, that has to sustain this argument, even though as you say, this is a horrific past, but we're free. but the democrat party not all of the people in the democrat party, but many of the spokesmen and leaders. they are not free this this. they seek to keep people or stigmatize people. what is that about? >> the innocence of american libballism is pursuit of innocence. it is specifically ugly american past. if that is why, because i am free of that ugliness and innocent of it, that is why you should vote for me. that is why you should let me change this aspect of the

university system. that is why you should let me do any number of other things. not because i have better ideas, that i am a better problem solver, but because i offer this identity of innocence. which is now the i think big political problem that we have not identified up to this point. it is that susceptiblity that vulnerability in the political arena, people are going to play on it and exploit it i spent my adult lives in universities. you see reasonable, civilized decent people just fold up when the charge of racism is even hinted at. they begin to sell out the quality of the university. one thing they always absolutely do is lower standards.

remove western civilization from the curriculum. what are you doing? you think that going to make you innocent? it makes you stupid. it makes you destructive. and black americans we need to understand the careful evolution of western civilization as much as anyone else does. you keeping us from it saying, it is not it a bunch of white guys, i don't care. i need to know. and be informed. i need to identify with western civilization, i am a west >> thankfully. mark: some cases longer than most others? >> certainly. we have been here since the very beginning. and so forth, and shot the first

shot in revolution ai revolutio. and so this is it. now we're in a position, i understand this size as a black person. you come out in freedom after that. society admits it was wrong. you come out suddenly in freedom, you are going to say, well, something is due me. you did that to me for three centuries. mark: something due? >> there may be something due. of that is america tried its best to you know several trillion dollars on social programs. and wars on poverty, we tried that. it has not worked. and that is the realization i think we're just about getting to. is that yeah, we have a hard time. i had to watch my father being discriminated against, the unions would not take him in.

so i know all about it a part of me that say, wait, woe. i'm not ready to fully identify with america yet, that is a stretch. the cold fact is it does not matter. we can't change the past. we could only move to the future. and in the future, we have to identify with this country. this is the greatest country there ever was. what other system aring goin arg to go to? it is hard for some people, reparation, a psychological sort of imposition of what justice in some cosmic way should be. but that kind of justice does not very often exist this real

life. if you look at history, you see other people have been set free. they done get paid off for their -- they didn't get paid off forever thei for there are sufficienting, we're not going to get paid off for that suffering, we will pay the price if we keep demanding that, we'll get weaker and weak e, today black americans almost every socioeconomic measure are farther behind whites than they were in the 50s. and 60s. mark: i want to ask you why when we come back. and the denial of liberty. >> mm-hmm. mark: almost sort of a jen -- type of argument. >> mm-hmm. mark: we relying on past to deny the future, we'll be right back.

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orleans after a jaguar got loose. the jaguar was tranquilized by a vet team and returned, officials unsure how that jaguar escaped. now back to "life, liberty and levin" " mark: shelby steele, we've been talking about the forces in pl play. why the almost myopic focus. i watch professor, civil right leaders, myopic focus on within 50 year150 years ago, i believee should know our history, but really almost a rejection of a

fact we have liberty. >> absolutely. we think that freedom is a lie. one i'm doing work of at the moment, but one of the things that come that people who have been long oppressionsed and come to freedom, a problem that goes with that is what i call bad faith. if you have been a victim of america's hypocrisy for three centuries. now you are free. now you don't know what to do with the freedom. so you have problems there. but the easy thing is to simply say, we're not free. now we're down to micro aggressions. mark: safe spaces. >> yes. safe spaces. where i am determined to to

whatever i need it to to convince myself, make it up in my own mind that i'm not free. it is a tragedy that it striking black america. it is something normal, comes out of three centuries of victimization. the idea that you don't trust what they say to you. all these white people, you don't trust these elites. bad faith is cunning. it is being smart. it is saying i'm not a sucker. i am not going to belief these people again. i am going to keep a distance. and you end up keeping a distance from ou your own opportunity. and you miss it. and you hurt yourself. mark: how do you break out of

this as an individual. >> it is a damn hard question, one of the things that i think we'll do is to express this. say, look, freedom. if you are going to never get married, to start having babies in your late teens. and dropping out of high school, and so forth, you will suffer. no matter what goes on elsewhere. you will be the one who pays the price. what we as blacks have to do, this is what is so damn hard, i acknowledge it is hard. we all have the pain in the families. in ourselves. but we have to accept the fact that it is over with. we're not going to get perfect

justice. we're not going to get reparations, you give me $20,000 because my grandfather, which he was the, born a slave, what am i going to do with that $20,000? it would begun in you know maybe a month or two, maybe a few days. but, what is it going to do to change my life? you can't get reparation. mark: write and what is it going to do to change your thinking or those who keep pressing the agenda. >> this is what you know, why liberalism has become they are what is the term they use? people who help out or keep addicts you know. what is that word? escapes me. but they facilitate our problem.

that psychology by which we say freedom does not exist. white guilt forces them to facilitfacilitate that and thens they are not racist. there is a sim bee o a -- bond. but right now, since the 60s. white americans, have been guilty or and against as i say, nonot they feel guilt but they feel's a pressure a threat. so they behave guiltily. i am going to do something. i'm going to take microaggression seriously. i'm going to hire people to teach you about that.

when it is a joke. if black people. how do we survive this long? if every time, you grew up calming me an n word, that was once or twice a week. i refuse to accept the idea we're that weak. if we are then there no hope. mark: first, check us out most week nights levin tv on crtv.com, a great programs there. give us a call sign up, 844-levin-tv. we'll be right back. is

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mark: you know the broader issue to me is assimilation to the culture, into certain tradition,

beliefs and values. universal truths, eternal truths. and when a society doesn't have that, a society can't succeed. it breaks apartment it. >> i personally see this. with immigration. that you have a political party that does not believe in it. you have a corporate entities that keep different languages, they press button 1 for this and 2 for this. it is very concerning to me. but is it a bigger problem. assimilation is americanization, that is what is intended. the point you are raising not necessarily just within immigration. you touched on that too. it is crucial for the people who are already here. to be americanized.

>> yes. mark: what do you mean by that? >> you know. if you don't like the world american, you can use modernitty. it functions in centuries of evolution. ono and othat is no joke, you don't. to you know, what would the come pet o -- come pet >> that is what thing oppression did to black americans was prevent us from assimilating. we did anyway. adopted those principles and values. now there are these politics and this guilt. if i am white now, and i am

guilty and liberal, i want immigrants to be unasimmable, they even a victim class, then i am the one who'll be responsible and i anguish over their victimization and, take moral authority and power. >> you spring this up moral authority, this is one of superior moral authority where left then looks down at everybody else. >> what the left said today is we're going people. and we are redeeming the great moral principle they subscribe to is redemption. look at how ugly we were. it is people like us, that is why we're ally the elite, we'reg

against that backwardness. if immigrants come to america, and say we're going to become americans, that does not make the left happy, that does not give them any -- because they are not going to be victims. so, you look at the problem now with immigration. the people on the left immediately characterize it as a moral problem of a people of color opressed. once again. their wtherefore it falls on usw redeem america from abusive people. there is a lot of power. it is so much power. and the rewards are so high.

you get an identity. and see this in any number of people. there is a. to vote for somebody on the left, liberal whom ever, makes i am in with the good people. look at how abhorrent white people were. and i'm above that, you know, i'm above my uncle tony who used the -- n word all of time at dinner table. i am the opposite. we have given american the avenue to redemption, and left turned it to a vein of power. and it is now i think destroying us. because it cuts away at everything that is timeless and beautiful and important.

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mark: shelby steele, affirmative

act will it ever end? >> not for a long time. mark: why? >> without affirmative action. without the idea of a preference you grant victims, the left has no power, no way to keep this whole machinery going. so it just they just find new and different more inventive ways of using preferences. to send the signal that we're innocent. at harvard university, sa 8 to 9 percent of every freshman class has to be black. if you didn't lower the standards, for admission, probably only 1% would be black. they would be ones who earned it by merit, but they would be greatly out numbered by those

who won it as a racial preference. in a sense white america saying we're redeeming ourselves this way, without us we would go back to old way. so, you know we have the finger in the dike. and so affirmative action is diversity, new incarnation. a idea with all sorts of perversion follow this this idea of diversity. mark: does it help camouflage failures of half a century of the left's agenda. >> yes. because you know, black america has to face some, why are we poorer now than we were when we

had no freedom. after 50, 60 years. whites have a bill due coming as well, why have you betrayed every principle that made you great, that made america great. why did you betray that in the name of what? your own innocence. your innocence is a corruption, it facilitates everything that not good in the minority communities, you are the problem now. it used to, as i say often. old fashion segregation who called me the n word all of the time growing up, i prefer them any day to the modern white american liberal who exploits me and black americans. for the moral authority. that then uses as its base, i'm

being used now as a slave was being used to over state it a little bit. but not much. and it breaks my heart, i visit campuses, i talk with black students, they tell me all sorts of stories about their roommates, and white roommates say, you wouldn't be here if you were not black. affirmative acted -- ruins of very people it claims to help, it dispier itit -- disspirits tu get groups like "blac black livs matter that take it to while extremes of claiming how victimized they are. >> we have to take a break, we'll be right back. ♪

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(♪light musical cords) mark: shelby steele, ten years

from now race relations in america, better or worse? >> very good question. what makes me -- and i'm basically an optimist and i think in the long run we pretty much always work through these problems although painful as that working maybe. i think we ultimately will be able to do that and today you see signs of the less, so the this guilt and so forth, it's a preoccupation with its own innocence and you see that beginning to crack a little. people are saying no, no, i see through that. you are manipulating me. you are not planning to some real human pain or real

difficulty. you are manipulative me. you are talking about a -- i'm supposed to get up in the morning and believe that? mark: i hope you're right. thank you. it's been an honor to meet you and talk with you. ladies and gentlemen, join us next time on life liberty and 11 this is "objectified"... this is what kylie jenner wore home - from the hospital the day she was born. - oh! i'm harvey levin. this is the story of arguably one of the most famous moms on the planet, who became the architect of one of the most visible and lucrative empires in entertainment. ( people clamoring ) as a little girl, kris dreamed of being a housewife and mom, but that fairy-tale life with robert kardashian was short-lived. when he filed for divorce, that was pretty devastating for you. oh, yeah! i went to the market one day and my credit card didn't work, and i'm like, "i can't even buy a tomato."