justice, if we ignore real russia collusion, we are going to lose the country. it's that important. this election, this midterm, the most important of our lifetime. jason chaffetz in for laura tonight. sir, take it away. >> jason: thanks, sean, i think you are spot on. good evening from new york city on this night of major breaking news. i'm jason chaffetz in for laura ingraham. a tragic ending in the search for missing iowa college student mollie tibbetts. the alleged killer, a 24-year-old illegal immigrant, and we've got democrats out there saying i.c.e. should be abolished. unbelievable. we'll have a full report later in the hour. but let's get right to our top story, serious legal trouble for two of president trump's former top associates. paul manafort and michael cohen. fox news chief national correspondent ed henry is here with the details. what is the latest? >> great to see you. difficulty for the president on two fronts. paul manafort and michael cohen. the cohen case could prove to be more damaging legally and politically, because the

president was directly implicated in the plea deal, a far cry from the manafort matter which has nothing to do with the president, the 2016 campaign, or allegations of russian collusion. the former trump campaign chair was stone-faced in the virginia court as he learned the jury found he's guilty on five counts of filing false income tax returns, one count of not filing a report of a foreign bank account, two charges of bank fraud. the jury could not reach a verdict in manafort's case in ten other counts. prosecutors have until the end of the month to decide whether they'll seek retrial on that. manafort also looking at another trial in washington on lobbying fraud and other matters. that comes in the fall. manafort may also be pardoned by the president, who declared that special counsel in the investigation is simply out of control. watch. >> it's a witch hunt and a disgrace. this has nothing to do what they started, looking for russians involved in our campaign. there were none. i feel very badly for paul manafort.

again, he worked for bob dole, he worked for ronald reagan, he worked for many people, and this is the way it ends up. it was not the original mission, believe me. it was something very much different. so it had nothing to do with russian collusion. we continue the witch hunt. >> significant the president did not say anything about the cohen case, leaving the attorney rudy giuliani to put out the statement, "there is no allegations of any wrongdoing against the president and the government's charges against mr. cohen. it is clear that as a prosecutor noted, mr. cohen's actions reflect a pattern of lies and dishonesty over significant period of time." but cohen's plea deal alleges he broke the law to influence a 2016 election on behalf of an unnamed candidate who clearly is the president. cohen will get somewhere between 43 and 63 months in prison after pleading guilty to the campaign finance charges i mentioned, plus bank fraud, and tax evasion.

the campaign charges involve payments to two woman who alleged affairs with the president that he vehemently denied. stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. in cohen's plea deal seems to directly contradict something that giuliani told fox back in may. >> having something to do with paying some stormy daniels woman, $130,000, which is going to turn out to be perfectly legal. that money was not campaign money. sorry, i'm giving you a fact now that you don't know. it's not campaign money! no campaign finance violation. >> it was funneled through a law firm? >> funneled through a law firm and the president repaid it. >> that questions whether there is any legal jeopardy, michael avenatti, always very aggressive, he claims this will get a stay listed a civil case, separate from us, meaning there will be a new fight over whether

the president has to give a deposition. michael avenatti tweeting to giuliani, "buckle up, buttercup," as if this fight is just beginning. >> jason: thank you very much. let's bring in the legal panel to break down this development. harmeet dhillon is a republican and a lawyer, vinoo varghese is a criminal defense attorney, and tom dupree, a deputy assisted attorney general in the george w. bush administration. thank you for being here. i want to break down today's developments. i want to do it one at a time. we'll go around the horn on paul manafort. harmeet, the first stab at this. what is your take on the developments today? >> the developments today, i think they're very unfortunate for mr. manafort because he is close to the president at one point in time for a brief period of time. he got caught in the cross hairs of the prosecution of the mueller investigation. as we can see from the indictment as well as the charges and the jury verdict today, we don't see anything

about the president, about russian collusion or anything over that irregularities in his taxes and statements to banks. now those are series issues and unfortunately, mr. manafort will probably spend a good decade plus, to the rest of his life in prison, depending on what happens next. it's got zero to do with the president and it's frankly underscoring that if it weren't for being close to the president, he probably wouldn't have been prosecuted. part of the narrative of the unfair witch hunt. >> jason: joining me in the studio in new york, she writes, nothing to do with donald trump? the proximity of the president is what is driving this, right? >> the first thing that she noted, ostriches and pythons across the country will sleep well tonight knowing that paul manafort will remain behind bars. understand this is a big victory for team mueller in the court of public opinion, because they won this case in the court. there have been a number of

guilty pleas here. >> jason: a case that has nothing to do with the original manafort directive. >> this is trump's campaign chairman. it was his campaign chairman. >> jason: anyone that has ever worked for you -- >> paul manafort here has been found guilty. look -- >> jason: of what? something he did a long time ago? >> the team took a gamble, the case in alexandria, virginia, hoping for a much more conservative jury. >> jason: you don't believe that he would have been prosecuted except for his proximity to donald trump? >> they looked at him. that was part of it. i agree, his proximity to donald trump brought the case. it doesn't mean that's the only thing. >> jason: if someone has skirted the tax laws, i want them to be convicted. but to have the national spotlight on them just because he's worked for 100 days for donald trump seems a bit over the top. let me get tom's take on this. tom, what do you think is happening here with paul manafort? >> a few things, i do think he was the wrong guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. look, the fact that bob mueller

is poking around, mueller has a broad mandate, the authority to investigate any crimes he uncovers in the course of investigating russian collusion. unfortunately for manafort, put the spotlight on him. i think as far as a president goes, i think there is no legal jeopardy to the president from today's verdict, as we all know, this involves things that they are not connected to manafort's work on the campaign or manafort service to donald trump. i think at most the president is guilty of making a very poor pernell decision when he chose manafort to be his campaign chairman. >> jason: but the reason the president picked manafort, i mean, that could be debated. but the question about -- there's a reason why the special counsel, right, decided to push this off to a different prosecutor rather than holding it for himself, correct, tom? >> manafort was tried by the special counsel's team so this part of the case, mueller is keeping close to heart. i agree with you that if manafort -- >> jason: i guess the point i should make, worded better, why do that? is he now putting the squeeze on mr. manafort, saying, i made my

case, you are going to be convicted here, you have been convicted, and i'm going to put the squeeze on you, you better cough something up on donald trump or i'm going to actually -- is that what is going on? >> mueller's team has been putting the squeeze on manafort for many, many months now, and he hasn't caved. i suppose the pressure will continue although at this point, manafort has lost a lot of the leverage that he had at the outset, given that he stands criminally convicted for a that says, it's possible that at some point they'll reach a deal. manafort has another trial coming up in a few months, there might be an opportunity to do wheeling and dealing. i tend to think of manafort has a bigger value to get to mueller and he was willing to turned over to mueller, you think mueller would have it by now. >> jason: let's talk about michael cohen. that's a different scenario. vinoo, how do you read that situation? >> the first thing, i think this is a big political victory for the republicans today, with announcing that michael cohen is trump's personal attorney paid hush money to a porn star and playboy model.

there's no debate that president trump has a better taste in women than bill clinton. he's an attorney, this is a guy who has committed a crime, multiple, tax evasion, violation of campaign finance laws. he is going to be automatically disbarred. the question is, how much time will he face behind bars? the deal says 43 to 63 months but that judge can give much more than that. that is the reality of the case. so for him, it leaves open the possibility of cooperating. there are still an opportunity to cooperate. i wouldn't be surprised at all of the december date is pushed back. >> jason: harmeet, how do you read this situation? and i think it's pretty interesting who michael cohen picked as his attorney, because lanny davis is obviously no friend of donald trump but very close in proximity to hillary clinton. >> a couple things to keep in mind about michael cohen. he is a guy who tapes his clients that he's a guy, who, a few months ago, looking at

potentially 60 years in prison for these potential charges, at that point he was saying that the president had nothing to do with any of this stuff and there is no campaign finance issues. fast-forward to today, when he were facing 60 years in prison and the alternative is five years in prison and you can get that five year deal if you say that a couple of things that aren't crimes are crimes, and pin them on the president. so i think that the overwhelming power of prosecutors here in those situations in every situation where the federal prosecution has led to this result. lanny davis has really sold his client out because i think it is a real stretch -- i'm a lawyer does election law, campaign finance, that's a real stretch to say that someone says that paying off hush money to a blackmailer is necessarily trying to affect the outcome of an election. i suspect that throughout his career, donald trump has been approached by women like this who have shaken him down and this is a standard way that

people are paid off and i don't see that campaign finance violation here at all, and so it is really unfortunate that he was forced into the situation and has done this. but, you know, again, "a," nothing to do with collusion or russia. and, "b," no crime here for the president. >> jason: jonathan turley, noted attorney come on fox news earlier criminals listen to him and tom, i would like to get your reaction to that. >> unless its unidentified candidate is bernie sanders. it's going to be bad news. you are not paying attention. if the prosecutors accept what is in this indictment, then the president just became an unindicted coconspirator. that is a simple matter of it. >> jason: tom, you've got deep experience in the department of justice. is jonathan turley right? >> not quite. the way i look at it, for one thing, the fact that cohen pleaded to a particular charge doesn't mean that other people are automatically deemed guilty. that is why we have trials, that's why we have evidence and that's why we have juries make

these determinations. i will also say that one of the most complex and byzantine areas in the entire sphere of federal law is the election code. and lawyers will argue to the nth day about whether something constitutes an election violation or it doesn't. to me what this will come down to is whether cohen has something other than his own word this is what happened, that these payments were made for the purpose of influencing a campaign, that they were done with the direction of presumably donald trump. if cohen has trump on tape, if cohen has evidence to support his allegations, then it can pose greater jeopardy for the president but right now, all we know is it's just cohen's word against presumably the president's word. >> jason: but there are tapes. is the trump team able to hear and listen to all of these tapes or are in the possession of the special prosecutor? or is that something that they may have only heard snippets of? >> my guess is the president has not heard everything that is in the possession of the prosecutors. lord knows what sorts of things cohen was taping. there have been some tapes that address some of the subject matter of today's indictment, we

don't know if those are all of them and the tapes that we have heard have been somewhat ambiguous to say the least. >> jason: but vinoo, i have a hard time believing that this is -- first of all, i have not heard the word "russia" yet and "collusion." you haven't seen anything there regarding russian collusion, have you? >> that's not what this is about. >> jason: i know but this is with a special prosecutor is spending all of his time, about a guy who is dealing with medallions on taxis -- >> that's the tax evasion part of it. you have here, donald trump's personal lawyer, the man who said he would take a bullet for donald trump, who has now said in open court that at the direction of the candidate, he funneled this money to influence the election. right? the question of russia collusion, that's a separate question. the fact is -- >> jason: what's the prime question of what the prosecutor is supposed to be going for? >> he can investigate different things. all of us came from us and the fact that you have trump's national security advisor, his former campaign --

>> jason: there is a lot of evidence out there that he was manipulated along the way. >> all guilty. >> jason: harmeet, last word. how do you read the situation going forward? what happens next? >> obviously, the left in this divided country is going to go crazy like vinoo just did, guilt by association here. but this is a tragic tale of a lawyer gone awry in many ways and it's important for him personally. but the president is very focused on his agenda, popular, wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't affect his popularity one bit because people are beginning to see the results in this country and yet after all of this money, all of this effort, drama, all these indictments, all he's got is zero to do with russia collusion, the only person who committed campaign finance violations with respect to russia, foreign countries, is hillary clinton, and she never got indicted. i think this really underscores the president's position that this is a witch hunt and it has no legitimacy and needs to end. >> jason: thank you.

i appreciate it. harmeet, gentlemen, we appreciated. authorities say the murder suspect in the mollie tibbetts case is an illegal immigrant. we'll have the details on this shocking situation directly ahead. stay with us. details on this shocking situation directly ahead. stay with us.

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>> jason: the 34 day search for missing iowa college student mollie tibbetts ended today in tragedy. i can't even -- seriously, as a parent, i can't imagine going through this. authorities charged christian rivera today with mollie tibbetts' murder saying that the 24-year-old led police to what is believed to be her dead body at an iowa cornfield. in a stunning revelation, authorities say mr. rivera is an illegal immigrant. president trump weighed in on this case tonight. >> you heard about today with the illegal alien coming in very sadly from mexico and you saw what happened to that incredible, beautiful young woman. should have never happened. >> jason: joining me now for reaction our immigration attorney michael wildes, former los angeles police department detective mark fuhrman, and bill gavin, former assistant fbi director in new york.

gentlemen, i think you all for being here. unfortunately you've had experience with these types of horrific cases. we want to get your insight because not only is the family going through an amazing tragedy, but the police work, 34 days, an important thing that we also look at and we want to get your perspective on it. mark, i would like to go to you first. what is your assessment of how law enforcement dealt with this case and does it sound to you -- again, "a," it's an allegation, and, "b," it's very early on in this process. but, based on what you have seen so far, in your professional experience, what is your assessment? >> i think the written media kind of skips over the police investigation, making it seem like it all happened in a day or two. i think they were very patient, i think they approached a very intelligent and very skillful approach once they had a suspect, when i got to interrogation. the suspect didn't just walk in and start giving up information. they had enough investigative tools at their disposal to

actually prod that suspect into somewhat of an -- somewhat of a confession. he leaves out that he actually murdered the victim but i think the police did an incredible job. >> jason: he says he actually blacked out during the time that the actual murder happened. but, bill, you have experience in the fbi. if somebody leads you to the body, is there any more evidence that you need that maybe this was the actual perpetrator? >> i don't think there is any doubt he's the perpetrator. i agree with mark, i think the police did a terrific job. one of the concerns that i have is, how long did he stalk her, by what means did he kill her, strangulation, blunt force trauma, stabbing, whatever, where she sexually molested? i think the other thing, jason, that concerns me, he was in the country, they say, four to seven years, four years, and maybe three years or more else. they need to go back and look and see. has there been any other crime similar to this? there is no he stalked her.

has there been any other similar crimes similar to this anywhere he has been? in the sanctuary cities? where has he been, what has he done? >> jason: he was charged with first-degree murder. does that lead you to believe that he was stalking her as opposed to a chance happening, she was running, driving back, decided, this would be a good target? >> i think he was probably stalking her. the police did a marvelous job. they didn't let out any information until they had the details pretty well collected and lined up for the information that they give out this afternoon. they did a marvelous job with this. another thing, we get so many people complaining about cameras, the civil liberties are violated when they appear on camera, the police did such a great job in contacting people as they went through this, they found somebody who had a camera who saw the chevy malibu, who actually saw the runner. what a great job they did, and hats off to the police department. >> jason: smaller law enforcement organization, not like the los angeles police department with untold number of

assets at their disposal, for a smaller department like that to do this kind of police work. michael, it does beg the question, joining me in studio, this person should have never been in the country in the first place, right? it's an allegation, but he should have never been here, right? >> thank you for having me, jason. a horrible, senseless act of violence, my heart goes after the family. there should be full consequences to this man for committing this murder for the rest of his life. the truth is, the political arena of immigration is not going to be satiated through legislation. you can't legislate your way out of a murder. it's many ways -- >> jason: you can put up a wall. you can enforce -- you can start expelling people that are here illegally. >> i understand but when you look at the facts, we have u.s. marines that marry foreign nationals and the vetting here is critical. even if you vet, you have more

u.s. citizens grieving, more heinous crimes, undocumented or legally permitted -- >> jason: he would have never been able to even have a chance to commit a crime if he wasn't here in the first place. >> you are saying we need to shut our doors and not have them here. i don't know how you can stop a murderer, despite all of the -- >> jason: if he's here illegally, that says to me, at least on the first blush, that he should have never been here. what about the million people we bring on legally and lawfully? i have a higher moral obligation, i think this country does, to those people then it does -- >> i agree. i agree with the other two speakers, former director of the fbi and the officer, because in all truth, when it comes down to it, the beautiful police work that is being done, the system here, should standard we should have redundancies between state, local, and federal crimes, so that the vetting doesn't stop. what about the people who radicalize, who are citizens, when they travel internationally and come back to the u.s.? if a local cop gets them, and reports it redundantly to the intelligence services, yes,

jason, we should be able to stop this, but we cannot blame immigrants as a scapegoat. >> jason: i'm blaming this one. >> as i am, too, as a father. >> jason: i worry, not having a total immigration debate -- but there is a difference between being here illegally and being here legally. you do a disservice to the legal immigrants by just saying, well, this guy was an immigrant. no he wasn't, he was an illegal immigrant. it's an allegation at this point. i want to get back to the case here. mark, he's being charged with first-degree murder. what is it going to take to prove that? what would police have proceed in order for a prosecutor to feel comfortable that, yeah, it was actually first-degree? >> it's first-degree because he wasn't involved with the victim. it wasn't a hot blood murder where he was involved in an argument with a spouse or a live-in girlfriend. this was a directed intent murder where he actually formed the intent, which can be formed in just a matter of seconds, to actually kill her, and they are

going to do this forensically. they've got him to get to the point of capturing her, and then he blacks out until he's -- she's in the trunk. so they are going to fill that gap in forensically, they are going to have the cause and method of death, they are trying to get as much dna. the problem here is, 30 days in the elements, insects, animals, and the heat, which is the average temperature is about 87 degrees in iowa at this time of year, that creates a lot of decomposition. but i think they are going to achieve their goal and they will get a first-degree conviction. >> jason: bill, is the fbi, the federal bureau of investigation, helping these smaller departments and agencies? do they have the types of resources and can they quickly turn this around to help a smaller agency such as in iowa? >> absolutely. that is why the fbi has resident agencies all over the country. in the smaller areas. the participation of agents and

police officers and sheriffs offices is is terrific today. plus, there's the opportunity for the bureau to run classes and whatnot and for police departments, larger police department, to run those kind of classes for smaller police department as well. the spirit of cooperation is there. anytime a police department wants something done, comes to the bureau, it will absolutely get done any to place in the country. >> jason: the fbi, one of the great bright spots for the fbi these days is the work that they do in their forensic labs at quantico and whatnot. michael, i want to ask you one less question here. this kid is and a half situation. i don't want to say kid. i will call him a punk or a killer, at least a wedge, he will be in a very difficult situation. does he have any chance of wiggling out of this at this point? >> we saw sadly with the kate steinle case, the state did not bring a good prosecution for a different forensics, very distinguished law enforcement officer spoke about today, i am a former federal prosecutor myself, it just the first step. the prosecution has to be

ironclad. i have to agree, it has to be strong and with due process to make sure that we send the message out, it's not immigration. we don't scapegoat immigrants because of this son of a gun's work. >> jason: illegal immigrants. mark, last, very quick read. what are the immigration policies happening right now? how was that affecting the los angeles area? >> i can tell you this, we never know what crimes are not committed because an illegal alien is stopped at the border. that is indisputable. you can't even argue that point. but the flood of illegal immigrants that are gang members is what is the catastrophic effect in communities and you can't control this by saying we're going to let some across the borders and not let others. ' going to let others. it's got to be a legal immigration policy or no immigration illegally.

it's an issue that can't be debated, that if you let somebody come in illegally, and they are a criminal, they are going to commit crimes, just like this crime. >> jason: gentlemen, thank you. i wish we had more time to discuss this. this case will go on. for the meantime, god bless this family and what they are doing governor mike huckabee is here tonight to discuss all the political fallout from today's major stories. stay with us. he's up next.

♪ tonight, the friends and family >> jason: there is major potential political fallout for the manafort and cohen stories but the mollie tibbetts murder case, with me to break it all down is former arkansas governor mike huckabee. i appreciate you joining me this evening. you saw the cohen news, the manafort news, you heard about the tragic death of mollie tibbetts. what is your political read on what's going on, particularly with manafort and cohen, how is this going to play out for the average american?

american? >> it was not the best day for the president because two people closely associated with him either were convicted or pled guilty. whether or not that stink ends up on him, time will tell. i think a lot of a lot of his supporters are not going to be persuaded by an attorney who has admittedly lied and by somebody who did things that are nothing to do with donald trump event happened years before he was even briefly associated with the campaign. but let's be honest, this is not the kind of thing that if you are donald trump, you want to have at the end of the day, two converging legal issues. but in the greater scheme of things, most people recognize this had nothing to do with russia, which was the whole point of the mueller investigation, and it also doesn't really show that there is a single-handed form of justice being applied to democrats like hillary clinton, whose campaign funded the russian dossier, and all of these things surrounding the president. so i don't think that we know

whether it is going to have a big impact. my guess is, in the long term, it doesn't. but time will tell. i do think there is a huge impact on this issue with mollie tibbetts and what a heartbreaking situation. congressman, i heard what you said a moment ago, couldn't agree with you more. you can't look at this just from a raw political standpoint. as you said, you look at this as a father, as a dad, and i just can't even get my arms around the grief of mollie tibbetts' family. and the fact that this person shouldn't have been here, if there is not a pushback against open borders and sanctuary cities in the philadelphia mayor dancing in his office over sanctuary cities, i don't know what it is. >> jason: look at the average voter. i understand where republicans will be leaning one side and the democrats will be leaning -- but this truly independent person, the person who is maybe not watching every story and reading every news article that comes out, i -- personally, i don't believe that the cohen and

manafort story really moves the meter in any one direction, especially when they lost so much credibility of the last two years. but what does touch the heart, what does touch people's emotions is what happened to mollie tibbetts because they can relate to her and she was murdered! all the polls are showing that the number one issue is immigration. people say don't politicize it but how do we talk about in the same time not be criticized for being, you know, just throwing politics out? >> i find it interesting, congressman, that you've got a lot of democrats saying, we shouldn't be politicizing the mollie tibbetts' murder but they are the ones that absolutely overwhelmingly politicize parkland school shooting and every shooting that happens. it's a natural emotional reaction but what we have to do is examine policies to determine, can we fix that, can we do better? there is not a lot of sympathy

among even republicans for paul manafort for tax evasion or for lying about bank documents. i don't care who you are, democrat or republican. you are going to have to pay up for that and he is going to. if michael cohen committed crimes, he is going to have to answer for that. just because they knew donald trump or had a relationship with him does not mean that whatever they did is automatically attached to the president, certainly not manafort, but all of us were attached to the unnecessary death of a young lady whose life was ahead of her and who is dead because we had a broken immigration system and i think the republicans have a great opportunity to say, let's fix this. say to the democrats, work with us to fix it and if you don't, then please don't tell us that you care about murder of these girls and the immigration policies that we've got to fix. >> jason: governor, i really do appreciate your perspective. very kind of you to join us this evening.

there are other sides to this story. another perspective on the other side of the aisle, so joining me and now is democratic strategist jason nichols. jason, thank you so much for joining me. i do appreciate it. i want to pick up from governor huckabee, the number one issue going into the election prior to this week is immigration. yesterday, we ran stories about a person who was supposedly with his wife going to the hospital but i.c.e. picked her up and then they ran all the stories about how heartless i.c.e. was, ends up that he was wanted for murder, and the mexican government wanted us to detain him. here, we have the allegation of the murder by an illegal immigrant, again, an allegation of a young woman who was going to be a junior in iowa. how is this not an issue and how is it that democrats think that they can actually take the positions that they have no

immigration and win? >> well, i don't think anyone says this is not an issue and really quickly, i just want to send my heartfelt condolences out to the tibbetts family and also to the university of iowa. i'm at the university of maryland and we have had some recent high profile deaths and i have had students who have passed away, so i want to send my condolences to that entire community. i don't think democrats are saying that immigration is not an issue and as a matter of fact, many are saying that this is a major issue and that we need comprehensive immigration reform. this is something that you, as a member of congress or former member of congress, know that both sides of the aisle agree that this is a major issue. we just don't agree on how to fix it and we don't think that separating families was the way to go about it. we don't think that some of the cruel policies -- >> jason: wait a second. donald trump didn't think we should be separating families, either. that was something that started in the obama administration.

>> come on, jason. that is absolutely untrue. you know that catch and release -- >> jason: i was on the immigration subcommittee at the judiciary committee and -- >> i understand, jason. catch and release was the obama policy. you might say that was flawed. >> jason: yes, i would. >> separation of families, zero tolerance was a trump policy. separation of families was a trump policy, -- >> jason: wasn't that an obama policy? you know it was. >> the separation of families was not an obama policy. >> jason: those pictures were not under barack obama? >> this sounds a lot like whataboutism. you are a lot better than that. >> jason: facts will prove. i like, keep going. let me ask you this. democrats are advocating, big people like kirstin gillibrand and senator warren, are advocating the abolish of i.c.e. i've never seen a national party win collection by advocating getting rid of law enforcement and trying to demonize them as

if they are trying to be something wrong other than -- i was at a winning issue for democrats? >> this is oftentimes misunderstood. i think what people are calling for when they say the abolition of i.c.e., they are talking about restructuring i.c.e. we think that i.c.e. definitely does a great job when they are catching cyber criminals and catching child pornographers and doing many of the jobs that -- >> jason: murderers. >> that many of them actually, a couple, i think it was 19 members of i.c.e. said we want to focus on those important jobs, not on separating families and doing some of the other things that -- >> jason: you are so conflating the issue. i.c.e. does not detain those people. they don't! when people come across the border, illegally, they don't necessarily going to i.c.e. the tension. it is homeland -- >> again, you are misunderstanding what it is that i am saying.

of course we know that i.c.e. is not responsible for border enforcement, that is cbp. border patrol. what i'm saying is that i.c.e. does, you know, in the communities that i used to live in, many years ago, they use to actually do raids and all kinds of things and separate hardworking families. so one of the things that we are saying is that we need to restructure this particular law enforcement agency, just because i.c.e. is a relatively new agency, as a matter of fact. >> jason: that the democrats helped create, by the way. they are enforcing laws that democrats voted and supported. jason, i wish i could keep going with you. i love these kinds of debates. i know you believe wholeheartedly in what you are saying and we hope you have you back on this program again but i got to keep moving on. thank you, jason. >> thank you, jason. >> jason: protesters toppled a confederate statue at the university of north carolina. is it mob rule or justified? we'll debate it next. justified?

wheel debated

>> jason: a wild scene in the university of north carolina yesterday. protesters taking down confederate statue that had been on campus for more than 100 years. check this out. >> [protesters chanting] [protesters chanting] [screams]

>> jason: university leaders condemned the students' actions and are cooperating with a criminal investigation. joining me for reaction are horace cooper, cochair of project 21 and civil rights attorney eric johnson. eric, the day before school starts, the students are gathered, there for a couple of hours in the know, they are not just engaging in free speech, but they are actually engaging in taking this thing down. what is your take on this? is this free speech or is this sort of mob rule? what is your take on it? >> i think it is really a combination of both. it is an expression of free speech in the fact that many people are upset with the images that a lot of these studies

portray. however, the fact that they did destroy public property is something of the university will take into consideration. their methods and handling here are something that may not have been the best, however, i do believe that the university administration needed to take into consideration the sentiment in that particular community, as it related to the statues, not only from individuals who didn't like them, but also some of the sentiment that they may invest and grow in individuals who seem to support them, in that outdated way of thinking. >> jason: eric, they are made be a legitimate debate but aren't you concerned that here on a college campus, all of a sudden, they are just saying, hey, they are allowing this to continue, cops are called in, i mean, this is breaking the law, is it not? >> it is breaking the law but you have to understand, you also have similar situations when the university had won the championship. there's also a lot of vandalism and things that goes on then. so at least this particular time it is not just a simple celebration of a sporting event, but these individuals are actively exercising their free

speech rights and doing something that -- >> jason: it went overboard. i want to bring in horace. it wasn't just simply free speech. it was breaking the law! correct? >> i understand it was breaking the law. >> jason: no, i want to go to horace. we got horace here with us as well. horace, jump in here. >> couple of things. one, to equate what happened when college students drink too much, become overly exuberant, and celebrate, and resulting damages with intentional destruction of private property, those are not one in the same, those are not to be treated the same way. yes, some damages can result from both, what we have to be very, very vigilant about making sure we are not telling young people that when you have a personal or political difference that the way to resolve that is with the use of force.

>> jason: eric, do you agree with that or disagree with it? horace makes a great point. do you agree or disagree with that? >> i would agree to a point. the fact is, we never want individuals to resort to violence to solve everything. however, we have to look at the underlying reason at which the violence is being exhibited. >> jason: absolutely. but you are saying is justified? >> i never said it is justified -- >> jason: you absolutely -- >> however, i did not say it is justified. the fact is, you have to understand what is going on and if you have writing situations where it goes on, whether they are for celebration or whether they are for the expression of free speech, they both have to be looked at for exactly what they are. so in this particular situation, we have a confederate statue, which is a divisive symbol on that campus that was toppled down. therefore, there is an understandable reason -- >> jason: eric, should those people be prosecuted? yes or no? >> i do believe in some sort of fashion, there should be some

punishment because they did, as i stated, in an ordered society -- >> jason: horace, what is your take? what should happen to the students that engage? >> they should be held accountable. here's the problem. the real problem is this: democrats put up the statues. democrats engaged in behavior during my parents and grandparents and great-grandparents lifetime terrorizing them. what we have learned from this event is there are people that, just like we did at the turn-of-the-century, justified this behavior, called it underlying conflict and concerns, we have a similar mind-set at work today. if you wish to remove the statues, there should be a political conversation and a process. the mob violence was not appropriate when it terrorized black americans in the 19th and 20th century and it's not

appropriate now in the 21st century. >> jason: horace, well said. eric, i appreciate you being here for the debate. it will continue on but thank you both for your perspective. you wouldn't say hollywood celebrities can debate themselves any further with their blind hatred of president trump but you are wrong! you're wrong because details are coming up after this. this wi-fi is fast.

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♪ >> jason: hollywood's cultural rot on full >> jason: hollywood's cultural rot on full display last night's mtv video music awards. the show in theory is supposed to honor the best in the music industry. instead, it often devolved into anti-trump antics in their cheapest form. here is a sample. >> i understand we are live coast-to-coast right now. i'm looking at this like it's game day, people. do not worry, at these games you are allowed to kneel. you can do whatever you want. no old white men can stop you. >> you never know what's going to happen at the vmas. i mean, bad language, people sending out crazy tweets, it's basically like a typical day at the white house. in your face, trump, suck it! >> jason: at least mtv wasn't rewarded. the ratings are in and they are the worst ever in the history of the vmas. when will they realize how

utterly disconnected they are from average americans? joining me now with reaction, lisa boothe, fox news contributor, and josh mcbride is an entertainment and lifestyle expert. i remember when mtv was about duran duran and men at work. i'm that old to remember when mtv started. now it has devolved into this thing that -- i can't even recognize the hatred that is out there and what they are spewing and what they are showing. what is your take on that? why do you think that the ratings are literally at their all-time lowest? >> i think these are two separate issues. the first one being, are they spewing hatred or were these two comedians doing their job on a network that has always been incredibly inclusive of sexuality, sexual orientation, race, religion? when we have a president that is not that inclusive. when we are talking about -- >> jason: what's inclusive about their message that they are saying about, they are going against the law, that sort of thing? >> isn't the law -- as in the

constitution say freedom of speech, as well? two comedians, two african-american comedians are up there targeting a network, on a network that is incredibly inclusive of people that this president has been so -- lack thereof a better term -- not interested in, doesn't care about -- >> jason: driving their unemployment levels to record -- >> from a race perspective, inclusive perspective, supporting of gay rights -- >> jason: trump hasn't done anything that is antigay rights. >> this is a longer conversation. as far as sticking with this, this was a moment for two comedians who have freedom of speech. this is what exceedians do. >> jason: there were a lot of people there, lisa, they didn't think it was very funny. >> a large proportion of the population that voted for president trump didn't feel included last night watching the vmas. look, it is such an unoriginal

idea now to hate the president and to be critical of him in hollywood. it's also boring now. it's not even interesting anymore. they hate him, they go out and make the statements and there is no shock value. i remember kathy griffin held his head up, or a fake version of his head up. snoop dogg shoots him in a video. madonna threatens to blow up the white house. there is no shock value. it is boring. nd be more original, hollywood. also, you look another -- they've had the lowest ratings ever. oscars, lowest rating ever, vmas, nfl has also taken a significant hit. what is the common denominator with all of this? they've all gone overtly political. can we just have entertainment and have us be entertaining without politics injected in it? i just want to have fun. why are we so surprised at how they were to select? we do this after every -- >> it's gotten so pathetic. it's not even interesting. it's not even entertaining.

>> jason: but everyone is cheering in that audience. >> they all share the same viewpoint. >> if i don't want that viewpoint, i will change the channel -- >> just like i did. >> that is every tv show. >> jason: not fox news, i'll tell you that. >> that's literally every award show -- >> all the ratings going down, down. >> i don't think we can really say -- >> people tuned in for "roseanne," things that they want to watch. you look at all of these, as i mentioned, vmas, emmys, oscars, even the nfl, everything that has gotten so overtly political, people are tuning out. they just want to be entertained. they don't want the volatility, they don't want the hostility, they just want something that is supposed to be entertaining to be entertaining. >> jason: this is the fundamental problem, the people that preach the most tolerant, they are the least tolerant among them. there used to be people like jay leno and whatnot, they picked on both sides. but when it is so one-sided, that is what is wrong.

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upcoming book the deep state, and army of bureaucrats protected barack obama and is working to destroy the trump agenda available for preorder online it hits the bookstores on september 18th. i spent eight years in congress, 8 months writing this book, that is all the time we have tonight. i'm jason chaffetz, i will be back tomorrow night. my favorite person at fox news, shannon bream is up next. >> not just because i can't wait to get my hands on your book, going to be great. we begin with a fox news alert, the president rallying a crowd in west virginia asking where is the collusion as he says investigators continue to search for something that never happened but there were major developments in a special counsel investigation, donald trump's attorney is going from the white house to the house, michael cohen reaching a deal with prosecutors that involves present time. former trump campaign chair paul manafort convicted him eight counts of tax and bank fraud and the jury deadlocked on additional charges, none of the