>> today is the day the u.s. stock market reaches its longest bull market in history. "your world with neil cavuto" will have a special on this today. >> good to see you. >> good to see you two. that's it for us, "outnumbered" starts now. >> harris: a firestorm reaction after michael cohen strikes a plea deal with federal prosecutors testifying that he orchestrated hush money payments at the direction of "a candidate for federal office." this is "outnumbered" and i melissa francis. here today is harris faulkner. and joining us on the couch today, and boy do we need him, senior fellow at the national review, institute, former assistant u.s. attorney in the southern district of new york and fox news contributor, andy

mccarthy. he is "outnumbered." we will need your advice and legal support today my friend. president trump's former personal attorney michael cohen pleading guilty to charges of tax evasion, bank fraud and campaign finance violations in federal court. cohen testifying he made illegal campaign contributions to two women "in coordination and at the direction of a candidate for federal office. those women are believed to be stormy daniels and former "playboy" model, karen mcdougall. the candidate is believed to be president trump. here is lanny davis on "america's newsroom" ." >> the donations given to keep quiet to women, which mr. trump wasn't willing to sign those checks himself, he directed mr. cohen to make those hush money payments, is a federal crime.

and if michael: with the prosecutors in new york admitted to that, then certainly donald trump is guilty of the same crime. >> there was immediate reaction after the news broke. >> i haven't been able to look at all the details but i wouldn't doubt mike would note that none of this has to do with the russians act of collusion or meddling in the election which seems to be the main focus and certainly has been the subject of an investigation by the senate intelligence committee. >> the thing that will hurt the president the most is if, in fact, the campaign did coordinate with the foreign government like russia. anything short of that will probably fall into partisan camps. this >> melissa: he compared his former attorney to his former campaign chairman paul manafort who was convicted on a

different charges in criminal court yesterday. the president tweeted, "i feel very sorry for him and his family. make up stories, and such respect for a brave man. lots to chew on there. i wanted to ask you right out of the gate, what is it that the president himself could be guilty of here? you are allowed to contribute as much as you want to your own campaign, right? so it would be about that he didn't report it. is it beyond that? >> it's the same finance infraction that cohen pleads guilty to but i think it's a much tougher case against the president, in part for exactly what you just laid out.

and he doesn't have this $2700 limit in front of his mind like other people would have to have. the other interesting fact is that, cohen is a lawyer and president trump isn't. as a prosecutor trying to clinically look at this in terms of can you make a beyond a reasonable doubt proof on its intent, it's tough on the president because he may not have thought about this at all. and when you are dealing with a crime that's more of a regulatory type infraction in the sense that, it's not like murder which is something that is innately wrong, this is illegal because we choose to make them illegal and regulate. they generally mean that you have to have a higher standard of proof in order to convict someone. it goes along with that at edge of ignorance of the law is no excuse. >> what with the penalty before

that? because -- at this point it's not hard to believe that if you are having an affair you would try to cover it up. but if lanny davis is trying to make the case that, they paid a fine. so i don't know >> i think what he's trying to do is create a framework in which we understand and what he wants to say is this is a payment to effect the election. the technical legal crime is not a payment to effect the election. you are allowed to pay for nondisclosure, you are allowed

to pay for some silence. nondisclosure agreements happen all the time. the crying here is exceeding the $2700 limit. that's the crime. to prove it against trump, and what we always have to stress is when the president is implicated in misconduct, the sitting president is not going to be indicted on the justice department guidance. so it's always about impeachment with respect to the president. and the question is, is it misconduct that the house would find? >> also to your point, michael cohen said lanny davis actually

disputed that. he said that's what he played it, but he himself didn't feel that. >> that was basically agreeing with the facts of the case. i think that if donald trump wasn't president and didn't have those justice department guidelines, there's a good chance he would have been indicted yesterday as i coconspirator in this and a lot of legal experts think that's the case. also take a step back, john edwards was brought to trial over something very similar with less evidence about the real question is, what else doesn't michael: no? what has he told mueller, what has he told prosecutors with other cases? he's been intimately involved with donald trump for a very, very long time and i think that's why you saw last night donald trump being careful not going after him at that rally because i think the president might be a little nervous.

>> melissa: and i think there's enough here. and as -- it doesn't sound like something you would get fined for. >> i think it's a tough case to him, but the other thing you have to bear in mind with respect to cohen, cohen was originally mueller's case. mueller allowed the case to go to the southern district. >> melissa: he kicked it there there. >> andrew: right. but he would have done the same thing to cohen as he did to manafort. >> melissa: there's one different ingredient with michael cohen. he didn't stay true to the president. in the president didn't stay true to him. he didn't bring him along to the campaign. there are already some

relational type situations reported there, to, and that act of disloyalty on either part, it opened a door. you could treat him legally probably differently too. bless his background as the deputy chairman of the rnc for finance. this was a guy that was going to play differently anyway, he didn't know about the 2700. >> andrew: i think that the relative to drums calculations but as a prosecutor, i think one of the things you want to bear in mind is how effective would cohen be as a witness? >> melissa: has that changed, is he not effective now? >> he did not plead guilty to a cooperation agreement which is what you do with someone. you get the guy to plead guilty to everything, and then his only way out is to cooperate with you and you file a motion at the en

end. they didn't do that with him. it's the one there's two different things going on, there is a legal angle which you just mentioned i do think president trump's legal liability is low in this case. you look at campaign finance violations that happen all the time and his 2008 campaign was the largest we have seen, and let's talk about politics of this as well, which is the other angle. i do think this is bad for republicans in a sense and i've always been told in a political narrative, it comes in threes. this is not good for republicans, this has not been a good week for republicans. with regard to impeachment to have brought up, i think that will be tough for democrats. he would have to have an overwhelming margin of democrats in the house for them to

entertain the idea of impeachment. but what will happen is one there will be articles of impeachment. number two you will have tons of hearings that are going on by democrats. essentially you have multiple hearings going on and this is what democrats will be talking about. that does hurt president trump and trying to move things forward in his agenda. >> i've heard marie say, you can't make it all about resistance and, go after the president on impeachment, you have to have a message. >> i think yesterday change that calculation a little bit. a >> melissa: i think it's interesting, because if you go after the president on this count and say we are going to impeach, that energizes republicans who feel like they are having their president taken away. also lanny davis said earlier when he was in that interview, which i thought kind of undermined his point.

he said he had this come-to-jesus moment with michael: when he was watching the helsinki press conference. for the average american who hears that, that's not really believable and that's lanny davis putting a political spin on a case which i don't think helps him. he also begged for money twice in that interview where he talked about the website. go and donate money to michael cohen. that money you would assume will go to his defense and go to lanny davis, which was a little distasteful. >> i think they were up to $17,000. money is part of the equation. >> melissa: we have much more to talk about, we barely stretch, scratch the surface. president trump stepping in to the fiery debate over some nfl players refusing to stand for our national anthem. the president blasting the espn decision not to televise anthem before games. is this the right way for the network to handle the controversy? plus new fallout in the verdict

in the broad trial of former trump campaign chairman paul manafort. we will discuss the impact on the president and the mueller investigation. >> president trump: i feel very bad for paul manafort. it had nothing to do with russian collusion. we continue the witch hunt. ♪

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and purchase a new samsung phone. visit your local xfinity store today. >> melissa: we come in with this fox news alert. new reaction from the president after a federal jury found his former campaign chairman paul manafort guilty on eight counts of the 18 on bank fraud and tax fraud. and a mistrial was declared on those other ten. manafort could face a maximum of 80 years in prison. president trump reiterated, manafort, and the case brought by robert mueller have nothing to do with his work for the campaign. watch. >> president trump: paul manafort is a good man. he was with ronald ragan and a lot of other people over the years. it doesn't involve me but i still feel it's a very sad thing

that happened. this had nothing to do with russian collusion. it started as a russian collusion and has nothing to do, it's a witch hunt and a disgrac disgrace. >> melissa: meanwhile as a president headed to a political rally in west virginia, chuck schumer warned the president against any pardons of paul manafort or his former attorney michael cohen. >> i understand the president is on his way to a rally. he better not talk about pardons for michael: , paul manafort tonight or any night in the future. >> you know, in all of this with paul manafort, even the judge in the case, ts ellis said, we aren't going to discuss russian collusion, it's not part of this case. why hammer that point now if you are the president's legal team? what are they trying to accomplish that the judge didn't

accomplish for them? >> i don't know. i think it's a mistake to keep hammering this because i think if you look objectively at what has happened here, i really don't think mueller is trying to make a collusion case against the president. i think mueller is pursuing his original objective which is russia's interference in the election of which the collusion thing was one strand. my view of it is, he's interested in manafort because of manafort, not because of trump and collusion. the reason i say that is, he's had to gates as a cooperator for six months. and yet what has happened since gates has been a cooperator? he's brought to indictments against groups of russians that don't even hint that there was any collusion. in fact reading the indictment suggests exactly the opposite, that the russians were doing their own thing.

it's three >> marie: he mentioned some congressional candidates. that is not the way that it would be done. so i think he's making a big mistake, continually attacking mueller because he sort of begging for his mueller to write a report that will be scathing. and just to defend himself. >> it doesn't look like that from the outside. >> if these people in his constellation, cohen and manafort, and lisa mentioned a wider scope. but collins and duncan hunter in that order were the first sitting members of congress to endorse the president. so they are in the constellation of conversation that we are talking about it, but if it really has nothing to do with the investigation, why even bring it up. the six i didn't mean to

indicate he wasn't interested in trump at all. leave three the new narrative that you may have picked up has nothing to do with me which is what the president said. and that i would say would be better nomenclature. or better narratives. >> andrew: it would be better than a full frontal assault on the prosecutor who up into this point has not indicated there is anything corrupt. so it does make sense for president trump to wage this battle against mueller because it is a political fight, it is a p.r. fight and that's what president trump is doing. the public polling has been different, but i think pointing to the manafort case, what president trump can say and what senator lindsey graham pointed out last night, this has nothing to do with collusion. i actually think president trump

is being smart from a p.r. standpoint and a political standpoint, maybe not from you putting your lawyer hat on. >> i would push back in this sense. i agree with you that he has done a public relations strategy because he's thinking about impeachment which is not about what happens in court. but i think you have to play out the whole chess game. whatever the polls look like now, the last word on this is going to be manafort's report. >> we talked about this once before. i'm not saying that you say anything in the report that's untrue, but you can write a report. or, you can write a report. >> that sounds like spin to me. >> is also worth remembering that the next trial that will be happening in d.c. is in a large part about manafort's work. so we don't know --

>> melissa: at the very dirty president of ukraine legally and politically. >> that's right. the russia issue -- >> there is another guy -- >> i'm talking about -- the first thing that paul manafort was lobbying for didn't report that and there are people who have said that when he was running the campaign, the platform of the campaign became much more progression and much less pro-ukrainian. so i think these issues are going to come up in the next trial. >> melissa: but we've already learned from this past trial in terms of the 58 or so million dollars, that's where some of that money was coming from because he was doing work for that former president. >> i will be interested to see if the trial happens. >> now why do you think a second trial wouldn't happen? >> if we all are right, that

what mueller is trying to accomplish is to squeeze manafort, it looks like he has them on 80 years of criminal exposure. >> you don't think he will appeal it? >> that judge put these prosecutors through the paces. and then he has the d.c. case is a home game, and i'm sure he was happy that that was first. and it's not like he was acquitted yesterday, he has ten more points in his pocket. >> it boggles my mind a little bit when people say the manafort thing has nothing to do with russia because that's where the money came from originally. it's kind of like, that's what it all goes back to india see through their how he could have become vulnerable. the question is what did he do from there and what of the do. >> melissa: and that might not

happen so what happens in its place? >> maybe he pleads guilty and cooperate with mueller which is what it's been about all along. if i were thinking of a pardon, the last thing i would want is my misconduct -- >> melissa: out while lenny davis said that michael cohen wouldn't take a pardon. >> i don't take i believe that. >> that story broke at the same time. that puts him on hold and the reporting was, it's likely because he may be ready to cooperate. >> i think flynn's sentencing has been put off because if mueller agreed to sentence him at this point, it said that we are not ready yet. sadness now combining with outrage. police have revealed the suspect

accused of murdering iowa college student mollie tibbetts was in our nation illegally for years. president trump mentioned this case at his rally last night in west virginia. and the heated immigration debate. stay close. >> president trump: you heard today about the illegal alien coming in very sadly, from mexico. and you saw what happened to that incredible, beautiful young woman. alright, i brought in new max protein ...to give you the protein you need with less of the sugar you don't. i'll take that. [cheers] 30 grams of protein and 1 gram of sugar. new ensure max protein.

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led police to the students a body in a rural area. she disappeared more than a month ago while jogging. president trump addressed the story at his rally in west virginia last night. watch. >> president trump: you heard about today with the illegal alien coming in, very sadly, from mexico, and you saw what happened to that incredible, beautiful young woman. it should have never happened. illegally in our country. we have had a huge impact, but the laws are so bad it, the immigration laws are such a disgrace. we are getting them changed but we have to get more republicans. >> melissa: so lisa, there were three immigration stories yesterday that we watched but obviously that one was huge and so heartbreaking. there was of the mass murdering

nazi who was deported, and he was responsible for thousands of people's deaths by virtue of guarding them in poland. he was finally deported. and there was at fake news stor story, a lot of reporters were putting out there about somebody who was racing his wife to the hospital to have a baby and was deported. and here it turns out that he wasn't driving and he was wanted for murder in another country and that was totally fake news. three immigration stories yesterday that a lot of people may have missed because of the legal news. >> lisa: and i think it kind of puts in a nutshell how these things are covered by the mainstream media and also by the left. marianne mendoza, an angel mom, was on "fox & friends" recently talking about how the media puts a focus and a premium on these sob stories when it turns out the guy was wanted for murder. and representative joe kennedy who had given the democrats response to the state of the

union, clearly the democrats see the future of the party and tweeted out about the alleged murder guy saying, there is heartless and there is whatever this is. i guarantee he won't tweet about what happened in iowa. i think the point that president trump has been making, and i think the point that republicans have been making is that they wish the democrats in the mainstream media would put as much of a premium on american citizens, angel parents, then they do sometimes on illegal immigrants. and where am i wrong with that? go to representative joe kennedy's account. >> that's not the point i make. don't inaccurately label what i just said it. >> lisa. okay come on. you just said they care about immigrants more than they do american citizens. >> when do you talk about angel

parents? >> no it's okay. here's the point. democrats of course want to keep american citizens safe. the idea that they don't is completely unfair and not borne out by the facts. the truth is, we need to immigration overhaul to happen in this country. the republican house couldn't even pass up 1 of 3 bills, they try to. >> go ahead. >> we need to compromise. we need both sides not to run two extremes, to come to the middle of the table and talk about how to reform our immigration system. but saying democrats don't care about the safety of americans is not compromised talk. now i don't think that will happen before the midterms, and we will see what happens after the election but the truth is there is no one in the congress that is willing right now to take tough votes on and immigration issue because both extremes of both parties are winning today. >> harris: i will agree 100%

on that last one. leading at the democrats, some say the face of your party, a marine. then you see on the flip side, republicans, some in the house, able to get that four prong bill that the president really wanted and the senate not being able to do the same thing. it's complicated on the hill. >> and the house didn't even pass at. for the compromise bill that didn't get a single democrat vote either. >> melissa: let's hear what former i.c.e. director tom homan said, about how to actually fix this problem. >> this is why we need the wall. this is why we need to fix the loopholes. i'm sick and tired of talking about this issue and meeting yet another angel mom that has been created at the hands of illegal immigrants. >> andrew: is hyper politicized, but even the wall, people here, "the wall, and they get all whipped up. but probably 40 or 50% of

illegal immigration in the country is not border crossers, it's people who come into the country illegally and say. but if you don't fix the border enforcement component, there is a lot of rhetoric on both sides. my own position, or what it's worth, is that you have to fix the border enforcement in a way that convinces the country that we are actually serious about enforcing the borders, and then maybe that creates a political space to do all the other things that need to be done. the democrats think that is an extreme position, but i don't think that will be a position that moves. i think if you don't fix that piece first, then you don't get to everything. >> melissa: but what you are saying is we do need that political space. because when you look at rivera,

in the mollie tibbetts case, he was here in excess of four years and worked for a farm in iowa. according to the farm's ownership had gone through some sort of e-verify situation. so we need to take a look at, i guess, all of it. >> all of it. >> melissa: at the white house responding to senator schumer's call for republicans to stop the process for supreme court nominee brett kavanaugh in the aftermath of yesterday's legal developments. whether the movie is just plain politics, or fair game. ♪ oh! oh! ♪ ozempic®! ♪ (vo) people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of once-weekly ozempic®. in a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than seven and maintained it. oh! under seven? (vo) and you may lose weight. in the same one-year study, adults lost on average up to 12 pounds. oh! up to 12 pounds? (vo) a two-year study showed that ozempic® does not increase the risk of major cardiovascular events like heart attack, stroke, or death. oh! no increased risk?

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>> fox news alert, the white house response after court democrats call for something the process for supreme court nominee brett kavanaugh. this comes after he met with a host of senators yesterday including minority leader of chuck schumer. here is senator schumer today. >> it is unseemly for the

president of the united states to be picking a supreme court justice who could soon be effectively a juror in a case involving the president himself. >> the white house spokesman responded saying "democrats pledged to block judge kavanaugh with everything they have." frankly the latest attempt looks quite desperate. there is a hearing scheduled for september 4 and judge beat 18 will be there. i think you will get questions in his confirmation hearing about whether he would recuse himself, if, for example, anything involving the trump investigation for example, a subpoena, would make its way to the supreme court. >> why would he? >> because they nominated him. he will get the question, i should say. >> andrew: shoot from the hip, i would be inclined to answer that and say, no, because i don't like there's a basis for it. we love to say that this was pristine and legal and it occurs

on a different plane, but this is all about politics. these confirmation processes are always all about politics. the democrats will ratchet up this rhetoric because the margin is very thin them. if they can push a couple of boats to the other side, neither they block his confirmation. from my perspective i don't see anything principle from my perspective. donald trump's president until he is not, and i expect him to be president until at least 2020. i don't think cavanaugh becomes at all illegitimate because of whatever problems president trump has. deal with it and vote. >> and harris, yesterday he met with susan collins and they talked a lot about roe v. wade. there's a principled opposition on the democratic side because they are concerned about that. >> harris: they've always been concerned about that and regardless of what the president

talked about on the campaign trail, contemporaneous with him nominating kavanaugh, he said when i talk to candidates, the litmus test will not be roe vs. wade. so i think for democrats it's always been something that they are interested in and the constituency of women they are telling to be worried about it, i don't know how necessary that is. but i give more credit today than i have one week ago to democrats for sitting down with her. it's not just a couple in red state where they are in trouble. and i do so for two reasons. for one, they can make that document asking now directly to the candidate, or to the nominee. good luck with that because i have documents already. but the other thing is, how do you go back to your constituents and say, you didn't even try to get to know somebody who potentially could hold a job for decades. so i give them more credit this week than last where i would like to see democrats get, if it's possible, if it's at those hearings and ask those questions that really matter and not just all the political ones that andy

is talking about. >> melissa: and you talk about what is principal versus political, but that is about politics. i understand how everyone feels about abortion rights is very much moral in their mind, but as a political point, i think everyone is voting on a long political lines and, i know he will vote based on your politics. i don't even think there's anything wrong with that, it's better to be honest going, there is no way i'm going to vote for this person because there politics don't line up with mind. but i will still talk to them. on the republican side, totally it's completely political. >> i think the problem is, the supreme court nominees, this use to not be as political. >> win? that ship has sailed. >> andrew: even in the 90s.

ginsburg was like 98-nothing, -- >> it is to not be as political too long ago. >> melissa: but you are too ashamed to vote on party lines at that point. >> went on democrats -- the point being is the ship's sailing and it's moving forward. kavanaugh will be confirmed unless he implodes during the confirmation hearing, this thing is happening. as long as i get republicans on board. you look at polling and in a lot of these red states there's been polling in indiana, west virginia, the majority of these red states wants their senator to confirm kavanaugh. so -- >> melissa: candidates are helping that desire among theirs. >> so you are also going to pick up some of those red state democrats and this is happening. so we can debate all those different things.

>> does this change the way we look at the supreme court justice position? because you pointed out with a huge majority in favor, bipartisan or nonpartisan, whatever it was. but does this fight kind of cheapen or weaken? >> andrew: i think that ship has sailed. i think a lot of people, myself included, look at the court as much more of a political institution done a legal institution in the way it used to be. these battles are political. donald trump is president today because of justice the lease. if that had not been the case, you would not be president. it's infused with of politics and i don't think there's any getting away with it. >> we will continue to watch that hearing. president trump calling out the nfl players and the league itself over national anthem protests and now he is going after espn. what the sports network data and what the president has to say about it, next. stay tuned. speak to you are all proudly

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>> melissa: more at "outnumbered" in just a moment,

but first let's touch base with harris and see what's coming up on "outnumbered over time." >> harris: big show for you coming up in a few minutes. president trump going after the russian investigation after two of his former associates have been convicted. is he right? robert mueller's probe has strayed too far from its original intent. and david sicilian he will debate, and that will be spicy, no doubt. and is this more proof that we need tougher immigration laws? senator joni ernst of iowa will weigh in when she joins me. top of the hour. melissa? >> melissa: sounds like a good show, harris. president trump again weighing in on the latest of the nfl national anthem controversy. at his rally in west virginia last night. he set his sights on espn this time after the network announced

it would not show the anthem in its monday night football broadcast. listen. >> president trump: it was just announced by espn that, rather than defending our anthem, our beautiful, beautiful national anthem, and defending our flag, they have decided that they just want broadcast what they play. so while the players are dealing, you are all proudly standing for our national anthe national anthem. >> what's interesting here is they held a summit on white house reform just a few weeks ago. do you think that the players took players off the field there would be room for compromise? >> on the issue i think

possibly. and we've seen people who have gone out and work with communities and tried to get players into the community is to talk about these issues. donald trump has said these players should be fired. so yes he had a wet roundtable but his language against them is so incredibly offensive. the espn doesn't normally broadcast the anthem, it's their normal procedure and they are not going to change it now. donald trump thinks this issue wins with his base. >> but all he is doing is playing politics. >> has issue is the fact that they are doing this on the time of the game, the fact that they are doing this on the clock when they are supposed to be playing a game. >> and the owners can make that decision. >> so the difference that i say, they brought this off the field, which is what president has an issue with, maybe that's an area of compromise. you look at the majority of

voters, not just republicans in a space, but they have largely been against still kneeling. the majority of americans don't want to see this happening so how do you think announcements like this from espn play into that? how do you think the viewers will feel? >> melissa: i don't know who they are pulling when they ask people about this. we watch football, we love football football in our house. i'm generally not organized enough to be there when the national anthem is going on, i'm still making snacks in the kitchen and getting people to sit down. so i recognize the issue, but i don't think we even know -- everyone is kind of doing it for a different reason. they are out for a different issue and standing up for a different right and the whole thing kind of just goes by and it's time for the seven layer dip. >> andrew: i think it's just a master culture warrior in the sense that, he can take a 50/50 issue that is good for him, a disaster for the nfl and probably a disaster for espn.

>> but they didn't change what they did. they've never broadcasted it. >> melissa: so maybe i wasn't making chips, it just wasn't on tv. >> andrew: when i was a kid, deep into the last century, they always play the national anthem and they haven't done it for years. on tv, that is. >> melissa: every thing is political these days. more "outnumbered" in just from $899, during sleep number's 'biggest sale of the year'. it senses your movement, and automatically adjusts . . pedal to the metal. and now, all beds are on sale. save 50% on the new sleep number 360 limited edition smart bed. plus, 24-month financing and free home delivery. ends saturday. sleep number. proven, quality sleep. what does help for heart fait looks like this. entresto is a heart failure pill

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>> melissa: thanks to andrew

mccarthy, so much legals going on. what next? >> my pleasure. will there be another manafort trial? it's scheduled for september. >> melissa: because that impact when mueller might finish his investigation. good stuff. thanks to everyone on the couch. we are back at noon tomorrow. here is harris. >> harris: president trump on the attack against the russia investigation after two courtroom dramas ended in conviction. i'm harris faulkner. this is outnumbered overtime. the headlines, the president's former attorney agreed to a plea deal while attempting to implicate him in campaign finance violations. headline 2 his former campaign chair was found guilty of 8 counts in his financial fraud trial. the president says the so-called witch-hunt, robert mueller and the investigation have strayed too far from the probe's original intent. watch. >> i feel badly for both. i must tell that you paul manafort is a good man. he was with ronald reagan. he was w