white house. that's it for us, "outnumbered" starts right now. >> harris: president trump in an exclusive interview with fox news doubling down on his assertion that he did nothing wrong during the 2016 campaign and he defends payments made by his former attorney, michael cohen, to two women. this emits after he copped a plea. if you are watching "outnumbered" and i'm harris faulkner. here today is melissa francis, most of kennedy, kennedy. and former ohio democrat state senator, capri cafaro. and lawrence jones. editor in chief of campus reform, and he is outnumbered. from texas, big loss.

>> lawrence: thanks for having me. be one all right, let's get to the news. president trump again going after michael: during an interview with our own ainsley earhardt. he said his work for him has been overstated and he was one of many lawyers who worked on and off with his team. he said he only knew about hush money payments that cohen made to two women, "later on." while maintaining their lawful relationship and not from campaign funds. watch. >> what he data, and they were taken out of campaign finance, that's a big thing. did they come out of the campaign? they didn't come out of the campaign, they came from me. my first question when i heard about it was, did they come out of the campaign? because that could be a little dicey. they didn't come out of the campaign, and it's not even a campaign violation. >> harris: the president last night we did this "the only

thing i have done wrong is to win an election that was expected to be one by cricket hillary clinton and the democrats. the problem is they forgot to campaign in numerous states! " this is something you were talking about in the green room just a short time ago? >> lawrence: i think this was all baked in when you decided to elect donald trump, because he's had problems with women in the past and he takes his private money and pays them off. this is what he did and i don't think he did not know about this, i don't ticket was a campaign contribution. i don't really think the american people care about this. it was already baked in. >> most definitely. of course there will be some people that disagree but also people that didn't like the president to begin with and who were already critical of him. i think the american people are more concerned when congress takes a flush fund and pays off women after they have done

misdeeds than a man that was a billionaire that did this and they knew when they elected him. >> with all due respect, congress didn't do much with that hush fund. capri? >> capri: one of the things that you are ringing up here is the concept that there is a pattern of private citizens from paying off women or doing whatever, so that is a pattern and it therefore would not be a violation of federal election law because basically you are saying that this is in the basic course of business. however what president trump just said they are, i asked whether or not it was campaign money but i paid for it myself so it makes me wonder, that kind of sense that it was somehow related to the campaign and, -- >> harris: simply because he ask for clarification? >> >> capri: why would have to o with the campaign if it wasn't involved in the campaign? >> let me talk about that one very quickly.

i know that nobody wants to look that up, but the issue here is, he can put all the money he wants into his campaign. and he can pay it directly to vendors, to. but the issue as he asked to report it. >> harris: so how shocked should we be that a man who cheated on his wife should chose not to become too careful with that cash? >> it's not necessarily forgivable but to lawrence's point, it's not a surprise. and these were also affairs that he was trying to cover up from over a decade before and i think one of the differences here -- and there are voters, particularly women in the suburbs who are really turned off by these stories. but what's interesting is, if you compare it to bill clinton which of the most recent directive that we have, bill clinton was screwing around when he was in the white house.

and i think part of the issue that the voters have is, this is our time. it's like mr. hand. if you are here and i'm here, doesn't it make it our time? if the president is covering up something he did as a private citizen, -- again, they want to get rid of him because they don't like him. >> so someone you thought didn't want to get rid of you might have been your personal attorney and friend, michael cohen, and then he flipped. >> president trump: this thing they call flipping them. 30 or 40 years, i've been watching flippers. everything is wonderful and they get ten years in jail and then they flip on the next one there is or the next highest you can go. it should be outlawed. it's not fair. >> harris: let's have let him have the last word.

he was asked whether he would pardon paul manafort. >> i have great respect for what he has done in terms of what he has gone through. you he worked for ronald reaganr years, he worked for bob dole, he worked for many, many people. many, many years and i would say what he did it, some of the charges they threw against him, every consultant and every lobbyist in washington probably does. >> harris: melissa, you are approached to take this. >> melissa: i am because everyone's talking about the pardon and how wealthy and dirty it can be if he went ahead and pardon any of these people. i got me thinking about the 150 people that president clinton pardoned, and all told there is about 500 people where he either commuted their sentence, and they included, you know, lots of bank fraud and tax fraud. the son of the secretary of

education for him, susan mcdougall. susan mcdougall who was directly involved in white water and then marc rich, and he is most famous for those crimes that included tax evasion, and he was selling oil and a subverting those sanctions that were supposed to be helping to bring our people home. he pardoned this man after his wife made very large contributions to the democratic party. it to the senate campaign and the clinton library, on and on. so i ask you, is it wrong? probably. is it at the luxury of the president? probably. >> yikes. >> melissa: i'm going to play super doubles advocates and democrats will go crazy on me and that's fine. you mentioned a whole laundry list of people with similar kind of crimes that bill clinton pardoned the last say that he was in office.

i think people even if they disagree with the pardoning of someone like sheriff joe arpaio, at least donald trump is being honest and not doing it on his way out. he's doing it out in the open, and people whether they agree with it or not i think they at least find it refreshing because he's not doing the politician thing. >> i would think they also have some flexibility. i believe this is the power of the president, even though i don't like protecting people that are corrupt. but where the president would have the flexibility, the american people watching the show today know that the reason these people were targeted wasn't because of the crimes that they committed, it was because they were connected to the president and they used of those crimes as a way to squeeze that. >> harris: it you don't think they would have gone after them otherwise? >> no. >> they did with manafort.

you have special counsel which adds unlimited -- a very deep purse and -- but here is i guess the ultimate point here. i hope this whole thing allows candidates to run for presidents in the future to kind of cleaning up their campaigns. i hope people aren't attracted to the john and tony podesta as as, -- >> why would they do that anyway? >> congress has become so incredibly powerful, and now there is someone that so powerful that they don't like it, that's when people -- >> that is why the american people picked an outsider because they know what you said is true. let's move on and get to this, please. the majority of registered voters approve of the special counsel russia investigation. but a majority also think it's only somewhat or not at all likely that bob mueller will find president trump has

committed a crime or impeachable offense. i say some numbers are interesting. democrats have been wanting to do what you have been telling them not to do, which is preach impeach. before we will go down about a road if we preach impeach. if we focus on that we are basically telling the american people that we don't have a platform and that's not right. we need to come and we can and we have offered more than just being the anti-donald trump. the other part of this in the midterm elections is, i think the republican base, in particular the donald trump oil list is the possibility of taking the house back into the senate as a possibility for impeachment and they don't want that. >> lawrence: she saying that as a democrat from ohio though, the swing state. all the other democrats going toward the socialist wing, they are not going to take their same position.

>> look at those california politicians. it's a nancy pelosi who wants that power and she knows that they are going to go to the polls. >> both seem like oxymorons, but okay. >> i love that pole that you put up. >> people think and that's why they like it. because they know that once it's over, it could potentially be over but politically we don't know if it ends, if it's really over. more and more democrats defending supreme court nominee brett kavanaugh's nomination hearing should be halted in the wake of the michael cohen plea deal. whether it's just another delay tactic, we will talk about. also more fallout after an illegal immigrant is charged in the mollie tibbetts case in iow iowa.

critics are calling her response tone-deaf. we will talk about that, too. >> i'm so sorry for the family here, and i know this is hard. one thing we have to remember is we need an immigration system that is effective, that focuses on where real problems are. she got cash back shopping with ebates and hasn't been skeptical since. where'd the money come from? stores pay ebates. psh!!! psh!!! then ebates pays you. psh!!! psh!!! psh!!! psh!!! psh!!! psh!!! psh!!! psh!!! psh!!! and they'll send you a check. psh!!!! oohh!! sign up for free. shop your favorite stores. get cash back. ebates. something to believe in. join today for a $10 bonus.

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>> harris: fox news alert, at least three democratic senators canceling meetings with supreme court nominee brett kavanaugh as senate democrats including senate minority leader chuck schumer demanded the kavanaugh hearing the delayed. some democrats are still going ahead with meetings including dick durbin, and cory cooper. durbin, a short time ago after his meeting with kavanaugh stepping up his demand for documents and reiterating that democrats' concern about where kavanaugh stands on presidential authority. watch. >> most of us believe as a matter of principle in america that no one is above the law. no one. including politicians that served in congress and the president of the united states. if you stick to that fundamental principle than there has to be

accountability. >> harris: but senate judiciary chairman chuck grassley vowed to move ahead with figuring next month and the white house is also pushing back. watch. >> this is a desperate and pathetic attempt by democrats to obstruct very highly qualified nominee. at the hearing date has been set for september 4th and judge kavanaugh will be there. >> harris: lawrence, what do you think? >> lawrence: this is where i don't get democrats. i understand that they don't like -- this isn't the issue to rally your base on because in return you're going to rally donald trump. there are a lot of republicans that held her nose and part of it is because of the supreme court. if they think this is going to be a supreme court issue, then they are going to turn out. i think there is no way that mansion is not going to vote for

his nomination, or claire mccaskill. >> harris: we know that senate minority whip dick durbin democrat from illinois has met with the nominee. we are getting some real-time notes from that and, durbin has apparently said in an effort to pressure red state democrats to oppose kavanaugh's "fails," i just wanted to interject that. >> they know that they are going to lose the next election and it's that we have to play politics this way. but they can't win. >> that's not what democrats should be doing. if you -- and we had some very, very tough votes that we had to deal with and we had members lose, defending our democratic governor at the time. we need to be able to offer them

something or threaten them with something, and if they think they are on the ballot and they are going to lose, he has nothing to lose. >> its guaranteed loss if you vote against confirming the supreme court justice because chuck schumer tells you to. >> also i think these democrats are really smart to be with him. they refused to meet with kavanaugh because they don't like the payoff that the president made to a star and a "playboy" model. if the issue is as a terrorist he has cited on the side of those empowered and even wrote an opinion in 2009 saying the president should be charged and shouldn't be bothered with criminal legal matters while in office. that should be a blessing for democrats because at some point, they are going to have a president again and i think they will love that and -- >> that

person will probably break the law like all of these presidents before hand. >> melissa: you were talking about whipping boats and how much experience you have, but durbin says if democrats are unable to hold off a confirmation hearing it could delay his confirmation vote on the floor. if we used every single minute of every single day, there would still be a vote. >> harris: you have to sort of do the calculation. i love when you talked about what you have to trade to put pressure on people or to give them a reward. but the math they seem to not be doing is, the closer this goes to the election, the worse it is for democrats and the more fired up republicans are. if i were a democrat, i would want to vote today. >> and kamala harris gets to have her say just like jon tester help gets to have his.

if they want to ascend to the majority than they should give the red state democrats an opportunity to get a little leverage because this judge is going to be confirmed either way. >> lawrence: and you have the republicans as well, you still have collins who said she won't make a decision until probably september 4th. then you have murkowski as well. >> harris: senator durbin has wrapped up his meeting with judge kavanaugh, i was told that in my ear. i'm wondering what kind of pressure there is now inside the democrat party to come up with an actual message that they can run on in the midterms. and i know all politics is local but donald trump will get into the race on the republican side. they are about to take it full tilt national and they have to have something to go up against it. is it panic? >> lawrence: he said in his last rally that the secret service is limiting his

travel. this is a president that has no problem getting on the road. unlike president obama didn't work with his own party. >> it was well known in washington, and i don't see the president letting secret service limit his travel by the way. president trump once again hammering attorney general jeff sessions and deputy attorney general rod rosenstein in an exclusive interview with fox today. he accuses sessions of never taking control of the justice department in this bias against him, and whether he will fire sessions and whether he should come up next. >> he took the job and then said, i'm going to recuse myself. and i said, what kind of man is this?

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>> harris: the president again making it very clear about attorney jeff sessions, attorney general jeff sessions

and his deputy rod rosenstein. an exclusive interview on "fox & friends," the president showed his displeasure with sessions, recusing himself from the russia investigation and recusing him of failing to take control of the justice department that he says is filled with bias. the president also letting loose on rosenstein or his recommendation of fbi director christopher wray and for signing off and the continued surveillance of carter page. while the president insists he would like to stay uninvolved with his justice department, he says he may have to step in and order the release of pfizer documents that allowed for that surveillance of page. b2 at the time i'm going to have to do the document. it's from before i got here, it's from the obama administration. as i said i wanted to stay uninvolved but when everyone

sees what's going on in the justice department, it's a very, very sad day. jeff sessions recused himself, which he shouldn't have done, or he should have told me. even my enemies say that jeff sessions should have told you that he was going to recuse himself. >> former cia director and trump antagonist john brennan saying "i take no delight in seeing the steady collapse of the u.s. presidency, but i do take strong comfort in knowing that the rule of law in our great government institutions are prevailing. things ultimately will get better and will heal as a natio nation. >> i'm laughing at that because president pence thinks that john brennan is a big fat head, i'm pretty sure. [laughter] and also, i can guarantee, as a hoosier, the president pence will not reinstate his security clearance because john brennan has done some unlawful things

and doesn't deserve to have it back. >> you are way looking ahead. >> i'm not even waiting into the sessions market pool. we will let lawrence do that. >> he should have told the president, the president is absolutely right, even people on the left said he should have told the president that he was going to recuse himself. >> do you think he knew at that point? >> he got into the swamp, he started playing around the department of justice and the fbi, and the man that was supposed to have been a conservative hero against that type of stuff is now part of it. and we are learning about the pfizer court which republican supported at one time, we learned about the police system, we learned about corruption in

the doj and the fbi. what i cannot understand is the party that has always rallied against that now all of a sudden loves the fbi and loves the doj. >> let me back up for one second, and, that was the least sloppy thing that you could do is recuse yourself. the swamp urethane would have been right in there. to me, i don't see that as a swamp thing. this is the one area that i do have concerns with, the rhetoric surrounding the justice system. yes, there are bad apples, but there are bad apples in any sense any institution. we cannot erode and create panic amongst the american people. >> i think -- of the department

of justice looks pretty panic were they. the system as a whole should work, and i'm with you, i think jeff sessions probably did the right thing. i'm kind of tired of of talking about it and i don't know why they are always railing on it, but regardless, the justice department is really political and they are weaponizing a lot of the things that they have at their disposal for political purposes. i would have been surprised -- i was surprised by everything that we found out about him. >> so senator lindsey graham was talking about this whole thing the attorney general sessions and whether he will go. he says it's very likely that the president will replace sessions. >> the president is entitled to attorney general, someone that has qualified for the job, and i think there will come a time sooner rather than later where it will be time to have a new

face and a fresh force at the department of justice replacing him before the election to me before would be a nonstarter, and i think it's very likely. >> how much does that really change everything? and the president weighing in on the fact that christopher wray wasn't a good idea either. >> the problem was because of the political tension, and, there were a lot of republicans that as lindsey graham said, who was now a supporter of the president, said it's a nonstarter for him. >> but we've heard this from people like senator rand paul. everything is a nonstarter. wait, what time is it? i will go for that. the president pushes against the swamp that we keep talking about, and sometimes the swamp

goes, wow, it's really bad in here. maybe i should step out and have something with this president. >> lawrence: i think the mueller thing has muddied the water. >> this is the swamp he has few days we've seen. >> lawrence: these guys have to worry about their own reelection and they don't want to look to their constituents like they are covering. i think it raises too many questions, but i think getting rid of jeff sessions would be good for the president and great for the country. and jeff sessions, too. >> let's turn to iowa now. new details on the murder of college student mollie tibbetts. and whether a glaring hole in immigration checks was missed. what more we know about the suspect and her murder.

stay with us.

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>> harris: new questionings over the suspect in the murder of mollie tibbetts and whether he was in the u.s. illegally, this as the dairy farm where he worked said they did not use the federal evr five system to vent his identity. -- e-verify system to vent his identity. matt joins us now. >> reporter: so far federal immigration officials told fox news that the variable never applied for a daca grant and was never given one and there is no record to indicate he had any type of immigration status in this country. however his attorney said in court that somehow rivera is in this country legally. we are working right now to locate any documentation that might prove that. today we have new video to show you of the exact location where police say rivera placed mollie

tibbetts' body, a very remote location about 13 miles away from where mollie lived in was abducted. from our perspective, it seems rivera walked about 60 feet between two cornfields and then he admitted carrying her body not too deeply into one of the cornfields. investigators say he could face even more charges if they determine molestation. the lead investigation sat down with fox news and expanded on how the alleged killer led them to her body. >> this particular night on the 18th of july, he once again saw her, and as it says in the affidavit, approached her and ended up interfacing with her and ultimately ended up chasing her down or tackling her. we were just lucky that he was willing to show us where mollie was, so we are thankful for that. >> rivera's employer at a farm

not far from here are retracting their statement saying they did not use the federal e-verify system and now they say they want a better system and laws in iowa and across country to prevent this from happening again. >> in the meantime, the president is using this case to highlight immigration reform and stronger borders. also took a shot at democrats who were did not support him. >> president trump: mollie tibbetts, an incredible young woman, is now permanently separated from her family. a person came in from mexico illegally and killed her. we need the wall. we need our immigration laws changed. we need republicans to do it, because the democrats aren't going to do it. >> harris: this is the host of democratic senator kirstjen nielsen writing immigration policies have invoked the worst

immigration process in modern time and under leadership it grows worse by the day. in the meantime, senator elizabeth warren expressing her condolences but also suggesting the real issue is a family separation at the border. >> i'm so sorry for the family here, and i know this is hard. one of the things we have to remember is we need an immigration system that is effective, that focuses on where real problems are. we need laws on people who posed a real threat and i don't think moms and babies are the place we should be using our resources. >> many are calling her tone-deaf. she talked about family separation, and, that's what so heartbreaking.

and really expressing her gratitude for the outpouring of love and support. as we see in the aftermath of these mass shootings, we kind of need to take a second before we politicize everything and really take stock in a tragedy and this young woman's life and that instant that allowed a complete psychopath to end her life before we start talking about immigration policy and border separations and things that take us completely away from this young woman's life and tragic death. they are both trying to make it a political issue instantly. >> you took the words out of my mouth in many ways. as i was looking at this issue, i thought to myself, we are totally ignoring the human aspect of this tragedy. no different then oftentimes we totally ignore the human aspect of parkland or any mass shooting. each side is guilty of this and

you have a republican saying, look at this tragedy, this is a battle cry to do immigration reform. this is the reason why we need to do gun control. because legislators are often -- and lawmakers are often reactionary rather than proactive in their policymaking, that's what happens. >> on the side of regular people, i think we were all watching this. long before we knew what happened to her, we were already devastated and terrified because i knew -- heard somebody last night on "the five" that this was one woman's murder or the other people were murdered. this struck a chord long before it happened because she was out jogging, in a safe town, and she was someone's child who sat there and held it together and try to do what he could to find his daughter and as a parent, it makes you cry.

>> and just as human beings, not even as a parent. she is 20 years old, at the beginning of her life. she's another human being that just like the rest of us has the right to go out and jog. just a few of the facts that i think sometimes get lost in all of this. this man come the suspect had been living here illegally for up to seven years. he had a job at a stable place, the farm in iowa. this was a town of fewer than 1500 people and these people all knew each other. he is living among them and this could have been anybody in that town or anywhere around it, this is completely frightening. we haven't talked about what it's like to be in brooklyn, iowa, on this fine thursday, after the loss of mollie tibbetts. and what has changed, clearly something was broken. he gave a fake name, break identification materials and,

dana langa owns the farm. and he said, we work with what we were given. e-verify was not used. maybe that needs to be mandatory in the state of iowa. is this a point where we can get together? and i asked you because i knew you were strong on the subject, lawrence, what in the world does this have to do with separation policies of the border, however egregious they may be, what in the world to those have to do with the death of mollie tibbetts? >> lawrence: absolutely nothing. you can agree about comprehensive immigration reform and all that but none of that matters right now. first of all it's not good politics to do this when you know people that support the president, because this has been the argument all along about -- you have to get better at the system because, and you don't

put american children at the border when an american citizen just died. and they care more about illegals, if we stop the demand, that -- we need to focus on that. >> they will take away their democrat card. >> homeland security secretary nielsen weighing out what the administration is doing to protect our elections from foreign interference. this november and beyond. but it was not enough for some democrats who say we are only playing defense, whether they have a point, we will debate that, next. >> for those foreign adversaries

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chairman of the inquirer publishing, the executive has been granted immunity in the cohen case, that's a case that you saw brought on just recently by federal prosecutors that was handed by bob mueller's team to them. david packer is his name, publishing exact that met with prosecutors to describe involvement with michael cohen, in prepresidency come up with hush money deals to women ahead of the 2016 election. "the wall street journal" is reporting this, and "the wall street journal" reports that federal prosecutors have granted immunity to david packer, the ceo of the company that publishes the "national enquirer" in the cohen investigation. "the wall street journal" reports that packer met with them in the manner that i just described involving michael: and candidate donald trump. prosecutors are indicating that dylan howard, the chief content officer at the

"national enquirer," a parent company also, will not be charged in criminal investigation of michael cohen. but the deal that everyone is talking about that is breaking news according to the journal is david packer granted immunity. your thoughts? >> lawrence: i think that bob mueller is not looking for a legal case. he's looking for building a case with congress for some sort of impeachment. he realizes he can't do it on the legal side and this is a bad move. the more they do this kind of stuff the american people will push back. it seems like they are trying to get rid of a duly elected president, whether you like him or not. >> harris: kennedy, i want to go to you because you have met david packer. as it pertains to this line of questioning and investigation, he fits in, how? >> he fits in because of his personal relationship with donald trump and he is an incredibly powerful person who has overseen a lot of content

and has been able to control that. obviously the "national enquirer," this is not the first foray that they've had into presidential politics. you remember, they broke the john edwards story. >> but i will say one thing. i have heard judge napolitano stated before that they brought the story and then killed it. >> yes, catch and kill. >> catch and release, catch and kill, that somehow fraud. if you want to get your story out, you go to "the new york times." you go to a national television show. if you want money for your story, you go to the "national enquirer." it's not that you are trying to have your voice heard or talk about something that you think the public needs to know, because let's be honest, when you're standing at the counter looking at magazines in the drugstore, usually the top of the "national enquirer" says something that's not terribly

believable. >> harris: it's basically just collecting money based on an ash, experience in the past election. >> melissa: particularly with karen mcdougall, as i understood it in the case, and that's the only reason i would say that during this hour. but in this particular case she wanted something more than just money and it was her attorney who she believed was working with the "national enquirer" exec or someone on their behalf to help her not tell her story outside of the "national enquirer" so they could catch and kill. right? biko that's -- british tabloids do this all the time. they pay a bunch of money. >> so what does this have to do though if you talk about a case that bob mueller has handed to prosecutors. is this part of that squeeze? >> absolutely. this is a person who probably has very valuable information

whether it's text or emails with president trump and with michael cohen, and certainly with executives at his media company. but the thing is, but it goes back to is, will voters be surprised, and will it change how they feel. i think the answer to both of those -- >> there are two separate issues here. i agree that the electorate by and large, and the guy at the inquirer has to have something that is corroborating. >> they are following the trail of the money. >> but they are being charged with crimes they didn't commit. >> and that is where michael cohen's assertions in court yesterday or under oath were relevant.

because that is what you -- we are seeing more, and we understand that there are other entities that could possibly be true, charged. >> we will be right back. [cheers] 30 grams of protein and 1 gram of sugar. new ensure max protein. in two great flavors. new ensure max protein. tap one little bumper and up go your rates. what good is your insurance if you get punished for using it? news flash: nobody's perfect. for drivers with accident forgiveness, liberty mutual won't raise your rates due to your first accident. switch and you could save $782 on home and auto insurance. call for a free quote today. liberty mutual insurance. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

you won't find relief here. congestion and pressure? go to the pharmacy counter for powerful claritin-d. while the leading allergy spray relieves 6 symptoms... claritin-d relieves 8, including sinus congestion and pressure. claritin-d relieves more. >> that was a fun hour, thank you, lawrence. you are working on a political cookbook? >> it's just in the works, it's

called setting the table for compromise. >> i love it. i want to be in on that. >> thanks guys, we are back here at noon tomorrow. and here's harris. >> harris: a breaking news, i'm a harris faulkner and this is "outnumbered over time." "the wall street journal" is reporting that the feds have granted immunity to a man named david packer, ceo of the company that publishes the "national enquirer," in the michael cohen investigation. chief white house correspondent john roberts is reporting on this. so this is news that the man in the documents with michael cohen might have been part of the conversation where, you catch and kill a play playboy models story effectively, alleging that she had an affair with the president? do you take that story, give her so