you don't want to miss that. my new book hits the shelves tuesday, but can you preorder now at -- that's all for tonight, my thanks to all of our guests, mark levin is up next. i'm steve hilton. see you next sunday when "the next revolution" will be televised. ♪ mark: hello .ark: hello mark: hello america. i'm mark levin. this is "life, liberty & levin." i have a great guest. shelby steele. how are you, sir? >> i'm good. mark: great honor to see you. >> thanks for having me. mark: a fan of yours for years and years and years, first time we're meeting. >> it's mutual. mark: thank you. you are author, columnist, you've done documentary films, you're a senior fellow at stanford's hoover institution, you specialize in the study of race relation, multiculturalism, affirmative

action, you were born in chicago, january 1, 1946. your father was a truck driver, met your mother ruth as a social worker working for the congress of racial equality. you hold a ph.d. in english from the university of utah, ma in socialology from southern illinois university. ba from koch college. latest book is great book too, shame, how america's past sins have polarized our country. you are a pretty courageous man in my view. you write things beautifully. your logic is outstanding. >> well, thank you. mark: and some people consider it controversial. i consider it common sense. you wrote a few months ago, in the "wall street journal," on this so-called protest with the football players taking the knee during the national anthem. among other things, you said it's not surprising, then, that

these black football players would don the mantle of protest. you say protest is something black americans have had to do wear civil rights. look at martin luther king and jackie robinson in sports and so forth and so on. you say the surprise was that it didn't work this time. they had misread the historic moment. they were not speaking truth to power, rather they were figures of pathos. mindlessly loyal to a black identity that has run its course. you say protest is sometimes necessary to get the vote, get equal rights, to draw the attention of society. this fell on deaf ears. explain. >> it is. protest is central to the evolution of black american culture. it was protest that finally won our freedom for us.

beyond that, it's always interesting to note that it expanded the idea of democracy. democracy and all of the theory, thinking all of the thinking before had never dealt with the clash between race and racism and democracy. well, it was the civil rights movement. it was martin luther king who said you have to take -- go beyond race even, that democracy is universal. so that's a big part of the black american identity, and it's seen as the test of your authenticity as a black. and yet, this protest in the nfl made the point that this was kind of fruitless at this point, and i think the central issue behind when you are

talking about is the fact that the oppression of black americans is over with. mark: it's over with. >> it's over with. i grew up, it was we never thought there would be an end to oppression, i remember being a teenager. i never thought i'd live in a society that wasn't segregated. it happened. now are there exceptions? yes, there are few here and there. will racism ever completely go away? no. it's a part of the -- as i say in the article, it's endemic to the human condition, just as stupidity is endemic to the human condition. we'll always have to be on guard about it. but we're at a point where the old-fashioned method of protest is obsolete. we need a lot of things, but we

don't need that anymore. we're at a point now where we are a free people and can pursue our lives as we would like to. mark: you point out in the article in your thought processes, that that's part of the issue. we are a free people. we are all a free people. we are not an oppressed people. blacks are not an oppressed people, jews are not oppressed people. this is america now. there is a history where there's oppression, obviously slavery, segregation and so forth. but that's gone. and you say some people are having difficulty coping with liberty. what do you mean by that? >> well, when you think about it, black american culture evolved over 31/2 centries,

every minute of which they lived under oppression and adapted to dealing with the fact that their freedoms are going to be cut off, and had to somehow make a life within all of those restrictions, and they did. and part of the -- one of the i think black american culture is nothing less than heroic. they evolved. look at the contribution of music and so forth, achieved great things. the one thing we never had to do was to deal with freedom. that was precisely the thing we were denied. so that's not in our culture in a vivid, clear sense as it would be if we had been truly free. well, we now are free, and freedom is, as the existentialists rightly say, a burden. it's a difficulty.

it puts the individual in the position of being much more responsible for themselves, their own development, as individuals. and that's new for us. the idea is still that black unity, we just can be unified. that's the way ahead. not anymore. you take yourself ahead. that's, i think, the -- that's the new and stunning, really, fact of american life that we're now facing and having to deal with. mark: say these football players are successful, they're wealthy in comparison to other citizens whatever the race. >> they beat me. mark: they beat you, they beat a lot of people, and they're treated with great respect, in terms of the fans love them, they want the autograph. they buy things with names and

numbers on it, and yet they protest. what exactly are they protesting? >> they're just stuck. you know, again, one of the ways we adapted to not being free is to think our group identity is the way we're being black and being down with the cause. that was the way we were going to get it. unity was everything. and if you are authentically black, you're going to do what blacks have always done to one degree or another, you're going to protest. the irony is you're making $15 million a year. you're making vast amounts of money successful in every way. you're free. there's nothing for you to protest. nothing. mark: how about social justice, and equality and phrases like that? i hear that's what people say

they're protesting. >> you got all the social justice you need. i lived through segregation the freedom we have today is absolutely remarkable and we as a people have not yet absorbed that. we've not absorbed the fact that our problem is no longer racism. our problem is freedom. we have to learn to deal with freedom. and the only way to do that, it's going to have to be grounded in individual responsibility. that's the only chance you have with freedom is to take charge of your life and make a life for yourself. ralph ellison, one of my all-time favorite writers talks about this. the group is the gift of the individuals. the goal is not to create the uncreated conscience of your race, but to create the

uncreated conscience of your face, and boy, that's -- 50, 60 years ago, that's on the money. that's in his great book invisible man. mark: do you think part of the problem is the daily recitation of group think, group rights? you get it a lot in our universities and colleges. you see it on television a lot. politicians. balkanizing the nation in order to empower themselves and their party and so forth. isn't that part of the problem? >> what i think you're point to is definitely maybe the overriding problem, which is, and we don't talk about it very much at all, is white guilt. and that keeps feeding whatever blacks are doing is not helping them, thinking of themselves as nothing more than members of a

group of protesting and so forth. it's white guilt that keeps feeding that. what is white guilt? we think do i wake up in the morning and feel guilty about black americans? no. white guilt doesn't have anything to do with actual feelings of guilt. white guilt is the terror of being seen as a racist. as a bigot that now pervades american life, all our social policy, our culture, everything is touched by this anxiety in most of white america. understandably given america's history, that they're vulnerable, they have this vulnerability to being disarmed of moral authority. by being called a racist.

i can use it as a weapon. can i say, you know, i went on the levin show. let me tell you how i was treated. and it's going to explode. so it constitutes that is black power. white guilt is black power. they're virtually one in the same. and one of the big problems we have is that you talk about universities and political correctness and so forth. these are all ways which white americans say i'm innocent. i don't feel this way. i'm not a bigot. i'm not a racist. i'm innocent. and white guilt causes this drive to prove and establish innocence. and so then we have a whole generation of black leaders who do one thing and one thing only. milk white guilt, and we're at

a moment i thought this protest was telling in that regard, kind of a point at which the culture may be turning, because it was a fruitless protest it. achieved absolutely nothing. mark: could the culture be turning but the elites digging in? >> that's well said. mark: because more and more when i watch these debates on television and so forth, people very easily almost casually call people they disagree with racist. if they disagree with a political agenda, if they disagree with a particular issue, and most of that is coming from the left. >> yes. mark: what do you make of that? >> well, it's white guilt. it is meant to disarm you of moral authority. when they scream racism all the time, they're saying you're a racist. you don't have the moral

authority to deal with whatever issue or problem we're dealing with because you're a racist and so therefore you are morally compromised and your moral authority. you don't have any moral authority. and this is the seduction that people on the left have fallen for. they then are given, as a reward, the idea of their innocence. mark: i want to pursue this further when we return because i think this is very, very important. ladies and gentlemen, you can watch me on levin tv on our crtv.com network almost every week night if you'd like to join us there. give us a call at 844-levin tv. 844-levin tv. we'd love to have you. hi there. this is a commercial about insurance. now i know you're thinking, "i don't want to hear about insurance." cause let's be honest, nobody likes dealing with insurance, right? which is why esurance hired me, dennis quaid, as their spokesperson because apparently, i'm highly likable.

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. mark: shelby steele, i want to pick up on this issue, white guilt and the use of the word racism. i find it to be now an ideological tool of the left, more and more and more, if they disagree with a particular issue, and i'm speaking -- generalizing, disagree with a particular issue, then you're a racist. and somebody could be called a

racist who's not a racist, no history of being a racist, hasn't done a thing in their lives to indicate racism, do you see this too? >> absolutely. it is the other side of that is that because whites are still so vulnerable to that charge of being a racist, that is the power that the entire -- all of the power of the american left is based on that guilt. that susceptibility, that terror of being seen as racist. not to introduce the presidential campaign, but hillary clinton and her deplorables statement, now famous, is a perfect example of saying these people are bigots and racist. i am innocent. you vote for me, you prove your innocence. i offer you an identity of innocence, being liberal, being

left is more an identity than anything else. the way i think of myself as a decent civilized human being. and those other people are contemptible. and so it worked on the cultural level, now i think the irony is that -- that this is beginning to fade, you begin to see signs of a cracking at this point that people don't take maxine waters seriously anymore, that's not martin luther king. when he came along, there were obvious, terrible things, terrible discrimination behind every word he spoke and everybody knew it, and there was really no debate about it. racism was everywhere. when the era of maxine, as some people now call it, there's

nothing behind the protest. mark: but if you have a political mind-set. a political party. a political ideology that has to sustain this argument, even though as you say, this is a horrific past, but we're free, but the democrat party, not all the people in the democrat party, but many of the spokesman and leaders of the democrat party, they're not free from this. >> no. mark: is it because they seek to keep people or stigmatize people or -- what's that all about? >> the essence of american liberalism is again, the pursuit of innocence. innocence of specifically the ugly american past. and that's why because i am free of that uglyness and innocent of it, that's why you should vote for me, that's why

you should let me change this aspect of the university system, that's why you should let me do any number of other things, not because i have better ideas that i'm a better problem solver, but because i offer this identity of innocence, which is now the, i think, big political problem. we have not identified up to this point, but it is -- that susceptibility, that vulnerability in the political arena, people are going to play on it, they're going to exploit it. i can -- and i've seen this, spent my adult life in universities and you see reasonable, civilized, decent people just fold up when the charge of racism is even hinted at, and they begin to sell out the quality of the university. one thing they invariably always absolutely do is lower

standards. remove western civilization from the curriculum. what are you doing? you think that's going to make you innocent? it makes you stupid, makes you destructive, and black americans, we need to understand the magnificent, careful, evolution of western civilization as much as anybody else does. you're keeping us from it and saying it's a bunch of white guys. i don't care. i need to know and be informed. i need to identify with western civilization. i am a western person. black americans are a western people. we evolved here in the west. thankfully. mark: in some cases longer than most other. >> certainly. mark: people in this. >> certainly, we've been here since the very, very, very beginning, and so forth and shot the first shot in the

revolutionary war. christmas maddox and so this is it. and now we're in a position, and i understand this as a black person, when you come out in the freedom after that, and society admits it was wrong, and you come out suddenly in the freedom, you're going to say, well, something is due me. did you that to me for three centuries. mark: is something due the person? >> there may be something due. america tried its best to -- up to several trillion on social programs and the wars on poverty and so forth. we tried to do that and it hasn't worked. and that's the realization i think we're just about getting to is that, yeah, we had a hard time. i had to watch my father be discriminated against in every way. unions wouldn't hire him, wouldn't take him in.

so i know all about it, and there's a part of me that says wait, whoa, i'm not ready to fully identify with america yet. that's a bit of a stretch. the cold fact is it doesn't matter. we can't change the past. we can only move into the future. and in the future, we have to identify with this country. it's the greatest country there ever was. what other system are you going to go to? and it's hard emotionally for people to say, well, we need to get some sort of a paycheck, something, for what we went through. some reparation, that's what reparation the discussion is the psychological sort of imposition of what justice, you know, in some cosmic way should be, but that kind of justice doesn't very often exist in

real life, and if you look at history, you see other people have been set free. they didn't get paid off for their suffering. we're not going to get paid off for that, and if we keep holding out demanding that, we will pay the price. we'll get weaker and weaker. today black americans are almost every socioeconomic measure. are farther behind whites than they were in the 50s and 60s. mark: when we come back, i want to ask you why. in the book you talked about before, the denial of liberty, sort of, almost, the genoflecting-type argument and relying on the past to deny the future. >> yes. mark: we'll be right back.

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>> live from america's news headquarters, i'm alicia okuhnia. the u.s. navy sharing pictures from senator mccain's burial today at the united states naval academy in annapolis, maryland. joining were the 1958 graduating class as well as military leaders and midshipmen. the navy posting the pictures

with fair winds in following seas sir, we have the watch. four people still missing after saturday's boat collision on the colorado river in california. the two vessels hit head-on causing both to sink. passing boats pulled 12 people from the river, four more were unaccounted for. authorities presume the missing are submerged and are treating this as a recovery operation. i'm alicia ocunnia in los angeles. mark: shelby steele, talking about the forces that are in play. why the almost myopic focus. i watched some of the professors and so-called civil rights leaders, almost the myopic focus on 150 years ago. i believe we ought to learn our history. we ought to know our history. that's crucial. but really almost rejection of the fact that we have liberty.

>> absolutely. we think that freedom is a lie, and one of the -- and i'm doing some work on this at the moment, but one of the things that come -- that people who have been long oppressed and finally come into freedom, one of the problems that goes along with that is what i call bad faith. if you've been -- you've been a victim of america's hypocrisy for three centuries, now you're free. now you don't know what to do with the freedom, so you got some problems there, but the easy thing is to simply say we're not free, and now we're down to microaggressions. mark: save spaces. >> save spaces where i am

determined to -- i'm going to do whatever i need to do to convince myself to make it up in my own mind that i'm not free. it is a tragedy that is striking black america. it is something perfectly normal come out of three centuries of victimization. the idea that you don't trust, you don't trust what they say to you, all these white people. you don't trust these elites. bad faith is cunning, is being smart, it's saying i'm not a sucker. i was a sucker for three centuries. i'm not going to believe these people again. i'm going to keep a distance, and you end up keeping a distance from your own opportunities, and you miss them, and you hurt yourself. mark: how do you break out of

this as an individual? >> it is a damn hard question. certainly, one of the things i think we will eventually do is to express this, to say look, freedom is -- if you're going to never get married, to start having babies in your late teens, and dropping out of high school and so forth, you're going to suffer, no matter what. this goes on elsewhere in the society. you will be the one that pays the price. what we as blacks have to do. this is what's so damn hard, i acknowledge it's hard. after going through all that, we all have that pain in our families, in ourselves, but we have to accept the fact that it's over with, and we're not

going to get perfect justice. we're not going to get reparations. if you give me $20,000 because my grandfather, which he was, born a slave, what am i going to really do with that $20,000? it will probably be gone in maybe a month or two, maybe a few days. but what's it going to do change my life? mark: what's it going to do to change your thinking. >> you can't get reparations. mark: right, what's it going to do to change your thinking, or the thinking of those who keep pressing the so-called elites pressing the agenda. they're not giving up, are they? >> this is why liberalism has become -- they are -- what is the term they use for people who help out or keep addicts involved -- there's a word.

it escapes me. they facilitate our problem, that psychology by which we say freedom doesn't exist. white guilt forces them to facilitate that and to then claim this proves we're not racist. there is a symbiotic bond between black america and white america and always has been, takes different forms at different times but right now since the 60s, white americans have been guilty, and again, as i say, it's not that they feel guilt, it is they feel this pressure, this threat, and so they behave guiltily, it's the braving guiltily that's the problem. i'm going to do something, i'm going to actually take microaggressions seriously. i'm going to hire people to teach you about that, when it's

a joke. if black people -- how did we survive this long. mark: if every little thing. >> i grew up calling the "n" word, that was once or twice a week. i refused to accept the idea we're that weak, if we are, there is really no hope. mark: lots more, but first, check us out, most week nights on levin tv on crtv.com. we'd love to have you there. great programming on crtv. give us a call and sign up, 844-levin tv. 844-levin tv. we'll be right back. i'll never find a safe used car. start at the new carfax.com show me minivans with no reported accidents. boom. love it. [struggles] show me the carfax. start your used car search at the all-new carfax.com.

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assimilation into certain traditions and beliefs and values. universal truths. eternal truths. and when a society doesn't have that, a society can't succeed, it balkanizes, tribalizes, it breaks apart. it's at war with itself. i personally see this with immigration, that you have a political party that doesn't believe in it. you have corporate entities, different languages, press button one for this and button two for this and so on and so forth and it's concerning to me, is it a bigger problem because assimilation is americanization, that's the point intended. and the point here is not necessarily with immigration, the issue of americanization, you've touched on this, too. it's crucial for the people who are already here, to be

americanized. >> yes. mark: what do you mean by that? >> well, you know, if you don't like the word america, you can use the word modernity. the modern world functions in a certain way, it's a result of a very long centuries and centuries of evolution, a reformation, a scientific revolution, on and on. that's no joke. you don't want to -- what would its competitor be? well, when we talk about assimilation, that's what one of the things oppression did to black americans is prevent us from assimilating, saying you're not going to learn these things. you're not going to -- in many ways we did anyway, and adopted those principles and vaults and so forth. and now there's the politics and this guilt we've been talking about, and if i'm white

now and i'm guilty and i'm liberal, i want immigrants to be unasimmilable. they are a victim class, and as a victim class, then, i'm the one who is going to be responsible, and i anguish over their victimization and i therefore take moral authority and power. mark: you bring this up, moral authority. is this whole notion one of superior moral authority, where the left, then, looks down at everybody else it doesn't agree with? is that what's going on? >> yes, what the left says today is we are good people, and we are redeeming america. the great moral principle that they subscribe to is redemption. look at how ugly we were. it's people like us. that's why we're elite.

that's why we're special. that's why we're so sophisticated is because we are going to -- we're fighting against that ignorance and that backwardness, and so if immigrants come to america and say good to be here, we're going to now become americans, that doesn't make the left happy. that doesn't give them any -- because they're not going to be victims, and so you look at the problem we have now with immigration. people on the left immediately characterize it as a moral problem of a people of color being oppressed, once again. therefore, we have, you know, it falls on us as liberals to somehow redeem america from its abuse of people like this. there's a lot of power. i mean, it is -- there's so much power, and rewards are so

high because you get an identity, and i see this in any number of people. there -- i'm going to -- to vote for somebody on the left, liberal, whomever, makes i'm in with the good people, i'm not in -- look at how abhorrent white people were. and i'm above that. i'm above my uncle tony who used to use the "n" word all the time at dinner table. i'm the opposite of that. so we've given america this avenue to redemption, and the left has turned it into a vein of power and i think it is now destroying us, because it cuts away at everything that is timeless and beautiful and

important, difficult, difficult, certainly, but very important. mark: we'll be right back. . thia commercial about insurance. now i know you're thinking, "i don't want to hear about insurance." cause let's be honest, nobody likes dealing with insurance, right? which is why esurance hired me, dennis quaid, as their spokesperson because apparently, i'm highly likable. i like dennis quaid. awww. and they want me to let you know that, cue overdramatic music, they're on a mission to make insurance painless. excuse me, you dropped this. they know it's confusing. i literally have no idea what i'm getting, dennis quaid. that's why they're making it simple, man in cafe. and they know it's expensive. yeah. so they're making it affordable. thank you. you're welcome. that's a prop apple. now, you might not believe any of this since this is a television commercial, but that's why they're being so transparent. anyways. this is the end of the commercial where i walk off into a very dramatic sunset to reveal the new esurance tagline

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mark: why? >> because for many reasons, but again one of them to go back to the whole guilt thing is that without affirmative action, without the idea of a preference that you grant victims, the left has no power, has no way to keep this whole machinery going, and so it just -- they just find new and different and more inventive ways of using preferences to send the signal that we're innocent. at harvard university, 8-9% of every single freshman class has to be black. if you didn't lower the standards for admission, probably only 1% would be black. they would be ones who had earned it via merit, but they would be greatly outnumbered by those who want it as a racial

preference, and what, in a sense, white america is saying is that we're redeeming ourselves this way. without us, we'd go back to the old way, discrimination and racism and so forth. so you know, we've got the finger in the dike, so affirmative action is just diversity is the new incarnation. a wretched idea with all sorts of perversions of follow from the idea of diversity. i could tell you a story about that. mark: doesn't it help camouflage the failures of half a century of the left's agenda? >> the -- yes. because black america has to face some why are we poorer now than we were when we had no

freedom, after 50, 60 years of freedom, why are we poor? well, whites have a bill coming due as well. why have you betrayed every principle that made you great, that made america great? why have you betrayed all that? in the name of what? in the name of your own innocence. your innocence is a corruption, it facilitates everything that's not good in the minority community. you are the problem now. as i say often, you know, the old-fashioned segregationists who called me the "n" word all the time when i was growing up, i prefer them any day to the modern white american liberal who exploits me and black americans for this moral authority that it then uses as

its base. i'm being used now just as a slave was being used to overstate it a little bit, but not much, and it breaks my heart, i visit campuses, i talk to black students and they tell me all sorts of stories about their roommates or white roommates saying you wouldn't be here if you weren't black, so affirmative action ruins the very people it claims to help. it disspirits them. it takes the incentive away for achieving excellence it. ruins them, and then you get, so no doubt, then, you get groups like black lives matter that just take this to wild extremes, claiming how victimized they are. mark: let's take a break, unfortunately. we'll be right back.

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relations in america, better or worse? >> very good question. what makes me -- i'm basically an optimist and i think in the long run we pretty much always work through these problems, though painful me that working be. i think we ultimately will be able to do that and the date you see signs of the left, sort of, this guilt and so forth and its preoccupation with its own innocence. you see that beginning to crack a little. people are saying no, no, no, i see to that. you are manipulating me. you are not pointing to some real human pain here or real

difficulty but you are just manipulating me. you were talking about a -- i'm supposed to get up and believe that? mark: i hope you're right. it's been an absolute honor to meet and talk with you. ladies and gentlemen, join us next time on "life, liberty and levin". to keep in their home define who they are. this is... my friend farrah fawcett, this, she gave me before she passed away. - that's farrah? - doesn't that look like her body? - it-- eh. - yeah, it could be her body. i'm harvey levin. this is the story of a small-town texas girl who transformed herself from a goody two-shoes ballet dancer into one of the most popular angels in the universe. - charlie: good morning, angels. - morning, charlie. harvey: jaclyn smith lived a sheltered life growing up, but her big break on "charlie's angels" put her way outside her comfort home. so, do you consider yourself a sex symbol? no. you know people disagree with you. harvey: and that legendary role opened the door that would transform her