the story, or you can email me. tucker carlson is up next and i will see you on his show as well, later tonight. have a good night, everybody. he's a good musical ♪ >> tucker: good evening and welcome to "tucker carlson tonight" ." brett kavanaugh just finished speaking with martha maccallum and he pushed back and denied completely all of the alex allegations against him. in doing that he had times provided a level of information about his personal life that would have been thinkable just days ago. >> martha: through all these years in question, you were a? >> that's correct. >> so never had intercourse with anyone in high school and college since we are probing into that?

>> many years after, i will leave it at that. >> tucker: not your conventional interview. he was asked repeatedly about allegations against him and his wife sat by him as he denied all of them. >> are not to let falls accusations drive us out of this process. we are looking for a fair process where you can hear my lifelong record. >> tucker: nobody expected anything like this when that confirmation process started. we will have more from martha's interview and martha will join us on the set later on to tell us what it was like in that room. but we typically open this hour by talking with someone that we disagree with. we agree with straightforward debate on the show. americans have been talking to their differences for many years and it's worked pretty well. we feel that we have wiser decisions when both sides get to have their say. but tonight, we will pause for a

minute. we will invite guests on later in the hour but first though it's worth it to consider learning what we've learned from brett kavanaugh's consideration for supreme court. it feels like a turning point, something new in this country. we certainly had controversial debates. robert bork, clarence thomas and many others. shortly after being elected president in 1936, franklin roosevelt tried to take over the entire judicial branch of government so he could impose his program on congress by force. thankfully fdr failed in that. the point is, politics has always intruded on our justice system. congress confirms the nominee is so inherently political. yet some of this we have not seen before. it is entirely new. never in our lifetimes have sitting members of congress attacked our justice system as they now are. lawmakers haven't not mocked the idea of due process were called

for the collective punishment or declared to the burden of proof is on the accused rather than the accuser. all of that is happening right now in washington and more. it's not just brett kavanaugh under assault, elected officials have announced they no longer believe in our western understanding of justice. it is no president of that here, it's stunning. you should pay close attention to what is happening because it could affect all of us. this shift began late last week with these remarks from the hawaii senator. >> i just want to say to the men of this country, shut up and step up, do the right thing for a change. not only do women like dr. ford who bravely comes forward need to be heard, but they need to be believed. be one so there you have it, all men are to believed, not because they are proved guilty but because they are men and they are inherently guilty by their nature. all women are to be believe it's because they are female, and all

that matters is dna. all of us are condemned or redeemed at birth and there is nothing any of us can do to change that, it's baked in the cake. that's what she said. no living u.s. senator has ever inside anything like that in public but none of those democratic colleagues were spoiled or wrong. she kept going and he or she is from over the weekend. >> doesn't kavanaugh have the same presumption of innocence as everyone else in america? >> i put his denial in the context of everything that i know about him in terms of how he purchases cases. >> give her credit for directness. brett kavanaugh is not protected by the united states constitution. he does not enjoy the presumption of innocence. kavanaugh is guilty because his opponents say he is guilty and that is her position.

she's proud of it and she has become a folk hero on the left for saying that. watch or say it again from earlier today. >> can you clarify what you meant? do you believe judge kavanaugh deserves presumption of innocence, or not? >> we are not in a court of law, we are actually in a court of credibility at this point and without having the fbi report or some semblance of trying to get corroboration, we are left with the credibility of the two witnesses. >> tucker: oh, a court of credibility. she didn't explain what the court of credibility is, but you can be assured that you never want to be tried in one. if the bill of rights doesn't apply to brett kavanaugh, it probably doesn't apply to you either. it all depends on what mazie hirono thinks of your political views. keep in mind that once you've been accused in this new court of credibility you are responsible for proving yourself innocent.

it's your job to unconvict yourself. that sounds like a mirror image of our actual justice system and you are right, it is. for more than a thousand years, the burden of proof has fallen on the accuser which in our country as a government. if they say you did it, you have to prove that you have done it. here is senator blumenthal and explaining how the new system works. >> we have a constitutional duty to get to the bottom of these allegations. they are serious and credible and it now the person with the most knowledge about them, namely judge brett kavanaugh, as a responsibility, as evidence to revive them. >> tucker: your job is to show you are innocent. senator blumenthal went to yale law school, that he learned that in his classes there? it's a new idea but also a very old idea which was common for

the accused had a responsibility to come forward to about the charges against them. heretics who survive torture sometimes got declared innocent, but there is a flip side to the new system. because the accuser guilty by definition, the accuser suddenly has no responsibility to make credible claims. we are seeing that principle in action, too. we covered the story all last week. five nights in a row we said we are giving christine ford every benefit of every doubt. and we did that. but let's be honest now. not many of her claims would hold up in an actual court, the one governed by the justice system that we thought we had until about ten days ago when mazie hirono informed us otherwise. when did this take place? she doesn't know. where are the witnesses to this? there aren't any. when was this first reported to authorities? it never really was. the story came out in stages and it was a recovered memory. apparently someone by a

psychotherapist 30 years after the fact. and then it was under six years before ford named brett kavanaugh specifically when he was being nominated for the supreme court. that was the position affords a lawyer all of whom who doubled as the democratic activists and operatives, and some of whom identified bill clinton from far graver assaults that he was accused of. last week for example, for told senators that she couldn't come to washington to testify because she was afraid to fly on airplanes. this fear is a direct result of being groped over the close by brett kavanaugh in high school in the 80s. as one of her friends told "the washington post," airplane cabins remind ford of the trauma, they are an enclosed space where you can't get away. but is this true? ford has relatives on the east coast. according to published accounts, she's been here recently. did she drive back and forth

every time she visited? we don't know. then "the new york times" reported that ford did graduate work and, in it that is in order to delay the proceedings and that might be something that committee would ask her if she showed up on thursday. they probably won't ask her though, that would be a victim's shaming. she's a woman and she's telling the truth no matter what she says even when things she says turn out to be not true, they are still true by definition. watch former michigan governor jennifer granholm explained this principle. >> kevin out judge, smith and her friend, leland kaiser said they don't remember anything like this ever happening. and leland kaiser said she doesn't even remember being at a party where kavanaugh was present. >> that actually corroborates ford's story that she was so

horrified by this, she kind of snuck out or slunk out of this apartment in a way that no one would know what happened to come because she was so utterly mortified. >> tucker: are you following this at home? when you are corroborating witnesses can't corroborate your story, and that can be corroborated may be even more s so. certainly the rules washington was applying to the new yorker magazine dropped last night and one of cavanaugh's classmates at yale said, during a drunken party on campus, kavanaugh wagged his genitals in her face. while that sounds awful. but in those initial conversations with new york, the character was hesitant to confirm his role. after six days of consulting her

memories and her attorney, she felt confident enough of her recollections to remember that kavanaugh had exposed himself at a drunken dormitory party. so it turns out she didn't actually remember what happened. none of the people she said were in the room remember what happened either. yet after talking to her lawyer for a week she suddenly remembers it. that's enough for cnn. string them up, guilty as charged, string them up. >> it certainly has a ring of truth to me. the idea that it is all made up seems preposterous at this point. >> it has a ring of truth, perfect. let's hang him. that's a joke at this point, and everyone knows that on both si, everyone knows that they are playing along. no matter how frivolous are obviously fraudulent they are. senate republicans are the ones who made the court of public

credibility possible at this point. how many more pieces like it are coming? as many as it takes, no question about that. we can't control the senate republicans obviously, and a man who was literally married to george w. bush's assistant can confirm the supreme court that no republican can get confirmed to the supreme court even with the republican congress, ever. but it's worse than that. there is a midterm election just weeks from now. if you are republican, he may be wondering why should i bother to vote? you back to trump to years ago and your and your brother-in-law from brooklyn mock to you, but you did it anyway. because you wanted to secure borders. he wanted an end to obamacare and he wanted noncrazy people on the supreme court of the united states. you didn't get the first two and you are starting to realize you

probably never will get them. we are all discovering it isn't easy, why is that? the republicans in the senate do not care about you. that's what you do about people you care about. if the republicans care to, they would protect you. they would protect your children from the torrent of mandatory propaganda they face in schools that are bankrupting them. they protect your privacy and freedom of speech, freedom of worship from the tech monopolies that seem to crush all of those things and they protect brett kavanaugh from the obvious smears that are destroying his family in his life. they won't protect him and they won't protect him for the same reasons they won't protect you, and it's hard and embarrassing. it's moving that way and a lot of us would like to be protected from that. but representatives don't seem to notice.

good luck in november, gentlemen. we are not finished with the topic of brett kavanaugh tonight, we will talk to a liberal who backs an fbi investigation into kavanaugh. then we will talk to tammy bruce and heather mcdonald for perspective on all of that. and martha maccallum just interviewed brett kavanaugh and his left wife. what was it like to do that and what did she learn? that's just ahead. >> the women i knew in college and the men i knew in college said it's inconceivable that i could do such a thing. ♪ is the only complete multivitamin with antioxidants from one total serving of fruits and veggies. new from one a day.

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at anoro.com. get your first prescription free i decided that i wanted to go for electrical engineering and you need to go to college for that. if i didn't have internet in the home i would have to give up more time with my kids. which is the main reason i left the military.

everybody wants more for their kids, but i feel like with my kids, they measurably get more than i ever got. and i get to do that. i get to provide that for them. >> so president trump will stand by you throughout? >> i know he will stand by me, he called me this afternoon and said he standing by me. >> tucker: we are still covering the battle over judge kavanaugh's nomination to the supreme court and its exposing fault lines and ideas that some of us are not familiar with. christine setser is president of new heights communications. maisie hargrove no said something remarkable. she is a sitting u.s. senator of

course, and she said that men, all men are implicated in sexual assault and women, all women must be believed because they are women. that seems like an idea that would cut against the western understanding of justice. >> i'm not sure that's exactly what she said but i do know that there is something particular about crimes of sexual assault and accusations of sexual assault, and that is, it's the one crime that at least i can think of in which the presumption or burden of proof is on the woman to say she really is a victim. last year i had my course, car stolen. when i reported it, it was not asked what did you do wrong to allow your car be stolen. >> tucker: it but you were asked questions like, did you leave the keys in the car, of course you are. sexual assault is a more delicate issue for obvious reasons, but do you think that our sneers of justice have changed? in other words, is the burden of

proof lower? do you believe in the idea that a person is innocent until proven guilty? we see lawmakers challenging that idea. >> i do but there are cases of sexual assault and rate that, for one thing the vast majority of women never come forward and there's lots of reasons for that. one is about how difficult it would get to get to trial or get to a conviction. another reason is all the issues around shame, and the final reason is some of the things that are playing out with kavanaugh which is particular issues around memory. when we are talking about traumatic events. >> so this is a recovered memory that we now know came out and psychotherapy, doesn't mean it's false and doesn't mean there are a lot of instances where recovered memory is false. and i'm not saying this is like that but, it means the rest of us have to ask real questions about it.

you seem to be suggesting the standards ought to be different, that we should give her the presumption of honesty and that's not how our justice system works. is it? >> i think it's important for you and your viewers to know the context of it, which is that there are no more instances of false accusation around and rape and similar crimes as there is for any other crime. >> tucker: hold on, i'm not saying otherwise. i'm saying there is a much higher incidence of false memory and recovered memory cases than in conventional cases. that's true and it's been looked at extensively by social scientists, and there's not much debate about that. it doesn't mean that's false, but if justice is your goal then you have to ask hard questions. but again, i don't understand, have we changed standards or haven't we? >> again, no one said that exactly. >> will here is richard blumenthal saying the onus is on him to prove his innocence.

it is not how it works? i thought that was the opposite of how it works. >> he said it absolutely didn't happen, fabrication. but it is something that he is asking for a very large promotion to the supreme court of the united states so you want someone that has impeccable character whose motive can absolutely not be questioned and he is given us nothing but doubt. >> so these are lawmakers, the most powerful people in our society and they determine what our laws are by definition. they are saying accused has an obligation and responsibility to come forward with evidence to rebut the claims. that is precisely the opposite of english, common-law, and no one has ever said that. >> what i think should happen, what dr. ford and ramirez said should happen is that there should be an fbi investigation. >> he's saying judge kavanaugh

should come forward to respond or rebut to the charges. >> i think if we are going to have this conversation about whether or not these things happen and he doesn't want an fbi investigation which by the way, he does not, then -- >> he accuses you of something with no physical evidence or eyewitnesses, and it's a sex crime that would destroy your reputation and in your family. you now have a moral obligation or responsibility as a senator from connecticut says, to read about that. >> you have an obligation to defend yourself. the republican party has said, -- >> so you want -- if you can't find evidence to disprove the charge, which has no evidence to support it in the first place, then you are presumed guilty. >> is anyone saying he's going to go to jail? no. he's saying he's going to be a

supreme court justice. >> multiple witnesses say you didn't and now we are saying that this guy has to prove he is innocent. you really want to live in that country? honestly, sincere question. >> since they, answered, witches, i think right now there's a very disproportionate sense of justice for women who have come forward with these crimes. right now we tend not to a believe them and sometimes if we've learned anything from the me too movement, it's that we should believe these claims. >> thank you. tammy bruce is a radio show host and contributing editor at the sitting journal and author of "diversity and illusion." how should we assess these claims? >> with our traditional standards of justice, and it's

what an extraordinary accomplishment it was to develop standards of due process. he referred to medieval trials by ordeal, and the presumption of guilt. what we are hearing from students and the senators, they have no knowledge of what -- with difficulty, and the work of centuries moved away from two assure fairness of the accused, and what we are also seeing as the victim ideology that holds that females everywhere are necessarily the victims of patriarchy in a rate culture,

it's now taken over the world at large. we are on a very dangerous and slippery slope towards a governmental oppression and mass injustice. >> tucker: tammy bruce, do you agree with that? >> yes, the interview you just had was shocking. you have brett kavanaugh effectively being used as a stand-in for all perpetrators. i think something happened to ms. ramirez and dr. ford and they are slotting judge kavanaugh into the perpetrator framework. in the name of women, many who have not ever had justice or closure, and effectively this is what the democrats are admittin admitting. we are not going to fix it by becoming fascist and blaming every man and presuming every

man is guilty. men have to ask yourself a very basic question. is this a fair framework. the me too movement me too movement is an nonpartisan movement and and the women who have sons and husbands and boyfriends and brothers and fathers, my goodness. this is the opposite of what should be happening if we want real justice for women because right now, you have two women with claims obviously difficult and would not stand up in a court of law, or commit in any kind of fair discussion. the new yorker piece has been reviled at this point. you've got to see that women then who did make claims are going to be looked at with even more suspicion because due process matters for the women,

the accusers especially, because we have to believe in the outcome. we have to believe in the outcome and trust it. >> tucker: i could do a whole show with both of you, i wish we had more time. thank you so much. martha mcallen martha maccallum. what she learned in her interview and rod rosenstein appears to be resigning. he thought he was getting fired but then he wasn't getting fired. we are not sure exactly what's happening in the white house. but we've made a lot of calls about it and we will tell you what we know, after the break. it's a pill that treats moderate to severe plaque psoriasis differently. with otezla, 75% clearer skin is achievable. don't use if you're allergic to otezla . it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. otezla is associated with... ...an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have  a history of depression or suicidal thoughts,... ...or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla

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tonight. >> it was a strange day, one of our producers had to put out an email pressuring us "rod rosenstein is still the deputy attorney general of the united states," then quickly added, right now. he tells us he went to this meeting today at the white house expecting to be fired by the chief of staff john kelly. they were discussing that bombshell reporting where rosen rosenstein discussed the possibility of wearing a wire to record the president is trying to invoke the 25th amendment. some of the president's advisors think this may have been a false flag designed by mccabe and others to get the president to overreact and help democrats who used a rosenstein firing to try to impeach the president. mccabe was under investigation for leaking to the media and then lying about it, and insist he had nothing to do with this week to "the new york times." i was hosting fox and friends

over the weekend and, he believes rosenstein was so stunned by the behavior, rosenstein sarcastically said, oh sure, i will wear a wire. after the meeting he appointed a lawyer because he knew he had to keep the russia probe far from the cave. so basically bringing in miller who might have been seen as more fair, and that's what some of the presidents allies have believed and they are now trying to say that as well. >> you ever spent time in a latin american capital where there is an ongoing swirl of rumor and conspiracy and no one believes the official story about anything? that's what washington is right now. it's like a graham greene novel. stronach joining us tonight, author and columnist mark steyns

x-ray vision in stories like this. what do you think this is really about? >> this is as you said the class classic espionage wilderness of mirrors. basically the idea is, this is a set up. this was deliberately leaked by an antitrust person to promote trump into firing rod rosenstein in order to assist the democrats in the midterm election. and if you are less conspiratorial though, it's clear that there is no honor among thieves and the vast number of people that have been removed from the highest levels of the fbi and department of justice in the last few months all have an incentive to slip the shiv to rosenstein, as the guy who is still there. they are basically in the position -- you know how it works with corporate crimes when the u.s. attorney tries to persuade the chief financial

officer to turn on the chief executive officer, that's the position these guys are in. in order to avoid their own criminal liability, leaking stuff about rosenstein who is still there -- so to be super conspiratorial, it is actually, if he did offer to wear a wire and use the 25th amendment to depose trump, it is in trump's interest to keep him as deputy attorney general forever and encourage mccabe and comey and the rest of them. it's crazy when this happens, when a latin american bureaucracy describes in a fact to try to nullify the result of the election. >> that's exactly -- and that's why it reminds me of managua in 1988. really quickly, if you think that rosenstein is your enemy,

wouldn't you want to keep him close and not cast him out into book contract world? >> i think if i was rosenstein as well, i think book contract as well, i think basically we had an attempted internal coo in the 2016 election. rosenstein should be fired and he should have recused himself but it's politically impossible to do that. the thing to do now is keep him there forever and make him suffer. and i hope -- trump should do that, he should find humiliating things for him to do. if we are going to have all these stupid things we have to investigate what happened at a high school dance in 1973, deep in idaho or wherever the next judge comes from, sent him over there for like a six-year

investigation investigation into what happened at the middle school prom in 1964. trump should find ways to torture. >> and, you have to wear a funny hat. i like your style. thank you very much for that. >> thanks very much. >> tucker: they took a close look at what the illegal population was and found it more than double one don't like what it originally was. plus more of martha maccallum martha maccallum's exclusive interview with brett kavanaugh and his wife, coming up.

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>> tucker: there is a new study out of el, three researchers looked into the question, how many people live in this country illegally. the number you hear is usually around 11 million but nobody

really knows. their conclusion which has been disputed by some is that it is at least 22 million. it's double what we say it is. true or not, is clearly, and, he joins us tonight. ryan, thanks very much. >> the question is, how many tens of millions of people are here illegally. the question is, how did we get here? >> it's also republicans who decided that this was useful for their purposes, the republicans were more interested in the end republicans who feel this way, both of whom worked together to

have a more worker friendly immigration and economic policy across the board. and that has been huge dereliction. >> one of the reasons i was so excited to get your book, which i was reading this afternoon, is that you were i hope starting a debate about this question. at least it will be a conversation, a rational one, but about economic effects around the country. >> its economic effects but it's also the core idea of the conservatory conservatism. not that we just care about the here and now but we care about the future. not just about the immigrant and the kind of work they can do but about the children and grandchildren of the emigrant. so what we have right now is a situation where we are in a combustible state and people are trying to turn one cut of american against another. these older people in middle america, they just don't get it. and others saying, we need to

replace them essentially with an entirely new people. they need to be enlightened or get with the program and get out. that elite attitude of contempt for ordinary working americans, some of whom themselves are immigrants or the children of immigrants is incredibly toxic and is fueled with this legitimate question or whether or not they are opposed to the interest of the country. i find it pretty terrifying that we got to the point where elites have almost seceded from the country and that has enabled them to build their wealth and power. >> like the corporations they have served, they are multinational. it doesn't have any meeting. and who actually suffers. the people who suffer are the second generation, children of immigrants and the working clas

class. and, that's an incredible attitude. >> thank you very much. >> brett kavanaugh and his wife just gave an exclusive interview to our friend martha maccallum at fox. some of the highlights and martha is here to tell us what it was like to do it, after the break. >> tech: so you think this chip is nothing to worry about? well at safelite, we know sooner or later

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>> tucker: brett kavanaugh and his wife ashley appeared on "the story" with martha maccallum an hour ago and he denied all allegations of sexual misconduct rallied against him.

>> judge kavanaugh: i've never sexually assaulted anyone, not in high school, not ever. i've treated everyone with dignity and respect. listen to people who have known the best for my whole life, the women who have known me since high school. they signed a letter from high school saying i always treated them with dignity and respect. >> tucker: kavanaugh's wife came to his defense as well. >> i know brett, i've known him for 17 years and this is not at all -- it's really hard to believe. he's decent and kind and good, i and i know his heart. this is not consistent with bread. brett. >> they look in pain, both of them. >> martha: watching it again, this is really hard for them and i felt like they were both kind of just tamping down the tears. they were this close to crying. i think this is obviously

incredibly emotionally devastating. i think they thought and we all thought that first day at the hearing when democrats tried to shut down the whole hearing that it couldn't really get any worse than that, then they think they are all the way through and suddenly those accusations start coming out of the woodwork. i think it would wreak havoc on anybody. they seem very solid together and very united in the effort. i said to them, at some point don't you say, forget it. it's not worth it anymore, it's too painful. but that's not an option. >> tucker: for a job that pays less than the average lawyer sometimes. >> it's very difficult to have these conversations with your children, which we have had to have. on broader terms, for our youngest. but they know, it's brett and that they the truth. and we told them at the beginning of this process, this will be not fun sometimes.

people feel strongly and you need to know that. just remember, you know your da dad. >> tucker: i bet those girls were not prepared for this. >> martha: how could they be? you can imagine at their age, they are at ages ten and 12 in that age, i'm sure it's devastating for them. i asked him specifically point blank about all of the allegations and we talked about them in very specific, graphic terms. i can't imagine what it's like to kind of frame that issue, but she also said, they know their dad. even in the beginning when he got roughed up in that first day, he said his daughter came down and gave them a hug that night. and the allegations are what they are, he's going to face that on thursday. there is no doubt that this has been extraordinarily difficult

for them. >> tucker: when clarence thomas was approved and of inappropriate behavior in 1991, he made a decision that he was going to fight back in a very tough way. he was not going to go down. do you think kavanaugh has made that decision? >> martha: kavanaugh was not in clarence thomas fighting shape today. and when he basically leveled the senate judiciary committee, it's so powerful. that's not the frame of mind that brett kavanaugh appeared to be in today, although he may be that mood on thursday. he asked him several times, you say this is all false, so what do you think is behind this? where do you think this is coming from? is there some kind of political vendetta against you that's being played out? we all know the corners that could be coming from but he did not want to go there at all. he doesn't want to conjecture about any of that. and clarence thomas clearly called it what he thought it

was. a high-tech lynching and he thought the senate judiciary committee had sunk to such lows to entertain some of the accusations against him, that they entertained. that was his feeling, and they persevered. whether or not we will see some of that fire in brett kavanaugh come thursday, we will see. >> tucker: martha maccallum, congrats on that interview. >> martha: thanks, tucker. great to see you. >> tucker: we will sum that up after the break. ♪ ♪

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you wouldn't accept from any one else. why accept it from an allergy pill? flonase relieves sneezing, itchy, watery eyes and a runny nose, plus nasal congestion, which most pills don't. it's more complete allergy relief. flonase. >> tucker: something pretty amazing happened in the last ten days. one half of our political establishment has announced that due process and presumption of innocence are no longer relevant. the other half has said very little about it. where does that leave the rest of us? those of us who like to be protected by due process in the presumption of innocence, unprotected. because both sides share a set of common assumptions.

that is in some detail, it's because of ship of fools, and it explains why normal people don't have advocates anymore. you can look at it if you'd like, but we will be back. sean hannity is right now. >> sean: a great show, we have a lot to get to. welcome to "hannity." we are witnessing a total miscarriage of justice at the highest court in the land. there is no due process, no presumption of innocence and no burden of proof. as we speak, we have the democratic party, the left in america, the median in america, all their friends are literally saying, guilt by accusation and it trying to the character career reputation of judge brett kavanaugh based on what is decades old uncorroborated delegations.