he's a good musical ♪ >> tucker: good evening and welcome to "tucker carlson tonight." brett kavanaugh just finished speaking with martha maccallum t and he pushed back pretty aggressively against attacks and has personal decency. and denied completely all of the allegations against him. in doing that he had times provided a level of informationn about his personal life that would have been unthinkable just days ago. >> through all thesese years in question, you were a virgin? >> that's correct. >> never had sexual intercourse with anyone in high school and college, since we are probing into that? >> many years after, i will leave it at that. many years after.

>> tucker: wow. not your conventional interview. he was asked repeatedly about allegations against him and his wife sat by him as he denied all of them. >> i'm not going to let false accusations drive us out of this process. we are looking for a fair process where i can be heard and defend my integrity and my lifelong record. >> tucker: nobody expected anything like this when that confirmation process started. we will have more from martha's interview and martha will join us on the set later on to tell us what it was like in that room. but we typically open this hour by talking to someone that we disagree with. we believe in straightforward debate on the show. americans have been talking to their differences were more than 200 years and it's worked pretty well. we feel that we have wiser decisions when both sides get to have their say. f but tonight, we will pause for a minute. we will invite guests on later

in the hour but first, though, it's worth it to consider what we have learned from brett kavanaugh's consideration for the supreme court. it feels like a turning point, something new in this country. we certainly had controversial debates. robert bork, clarence thomas, and many others. shortly after being reelected president in 1936, franklin roosevelt tried to take over the entire judicial branchg of government so he could impose his program on congress by force. thankfully, fdr failed in that. the point is, politics has always intruded on our justice system. congress confirms the nominees so it's inherently political. always has been. yet some of this we have not seen before. it is entirely new. never in our lifetimes have sitting members of congress attacked our justice system as they now are. lawmakers haven't mocked the idea of due process or called for the collective punishment

of american citizens or declared that the burden of proof is on the accused rather than me accuser. all of that is happening right now in washington and more. it's not just brett kavanaugh under assault, elected officials have announced they no longer believe in our western understanding of justice. there is no precedent for that here. it's stunning.nt you should pay close attention to what is happening because it could affect all of us. this shift began late last week with these remarks from the hawaii senator mazie hirono. watch. >> i just want to say to the men of this country, shut up and step up, do the right thing for a change.hi not only do women like dr. ford who bravely comes forward need to be heard, but they need to be believed. >> tucker: so there you have it, all men are guilty, not because they are proved guilty but because they are men and they are inherently guilty by theirse nature. all women must to be believed

not to because they are showing the truth, but because they are female. all that matters is dna. all of us are condemned or redeemed at birth and there is nothing any of us can do to change that, it's baked in the cake.em that's what she said. no living u.s. senator has ever said anything like that in public, yet none of her democratic colleagues were coiledd or suggested she ws wrong. mazie hirono did not issue an apology or clarification. she kept coming in here she is a from over the weekend. >> doesn't kavanaugh have the same presumption of innocence as everyone else in america? >> i put his denial in the context of everything that i know about him in terms of how he approaches his cases. >> tucker: give her credit for directness. according to senator hirono, brett kavanaugh is not protected by the united states constitution. he does not enjoy the presumption of innocence. kavanaugh is guilty because hiss opponents say he is guilty andy that is her position. she's proud of it and she has g become a folk hero on the left

for saying that. watch her say it again from earlier today. >> can you clarify what you meant? do you believe judge kavanaugh deserves presumption of innocence, or not? >> we are not in a court of law, we are actually in a court of credibility at this point and without having the fbi report or some semblance of trying to get corroboration, we are left with the credibility of the two witnesses. >> tucker: oh, a court of credibility. senator hirono didn't explain what a court of credibility is, though you can be sure you would never want to be tried in one. at this rate, sorry, you may be. if the bill of rights doesn't apply to brett kavanaugh, it probably doesn't apply to you either. it all depends on what mazie hirono thinks of your political views. if she agrees with you, you'll be fine. if not, you want keep in mind that once you've to be fine. been accused in this new court of credibility you are responsible for proving yourself innocent. it's your job to unconvictn yourself. if that sounds like a mirror

image of our actual justiceob system, you are right, it is. for more than a thousand years, the burden of proof has fallen on the accuser, which in our country as a government. if they say you did it, you have to prove that they done it. s here is senator blumenthal and explaining how the new system works. >> we have a constitutional duty to get to the bottom of these allegations. they are serious and credible and now the person with the most knowledge about them, namely judge brett kavanaugh, has a responsibility to come forward with evidence to rebut them. >> tucker: your job is to show you are innocent. senator blumenthal went to yale law school, did he learn that in his classes there? probablyew not. it's a new idea but also a very old idea which was common for

the accused had a responsibility to come forward to about the charges against them. heretics who survive torture sometimes got declared innocent, hooray. but there is a flip side to the new system. f because the accused are guilty by definition, the accuser suddenly has no responsibility to make credible claims. we are seeing that principle in action, too. we covered the story all last week. five nights in a row we said we are giving christine ford every benefit of every doubt. and we did that. but let's be honest now. not many of her claims would hold up in an actual court, the one governed by the justice system we thought we had until about ten days ago when mazie hirono informed us otherwise.ug when did this take place? ford can't say. when did it happen? she doesn't know. where are the witnesses to this? there aren't any. when was this first reported to authorities? it never really was. the story came out in stages and it was a recovered memory. apparently summoned by a psychotherapist 30 years after the fact.

and then it was another six years before ford named brett kavanaugh specifically when he was being nominated for the supreme court. that's not our analysis of the case, that the position of ford's lawyer, nearly all of whom double as democratic activist and operatives, as some of whom identified bill clinton from far graver assaults that he was accused of. that doesn't mean that ford is lying but it last week for example, for told raises a lot of questions. senators that she couldn't come to washington to testify because she was afraid to fly on airplanes. this fear is a direct result of being groped over the clothes by brett kavanaugh in high school in the '80s. as one of her friends told "the washington post," airplane cabins remind ford of the trauma, they are "the ultimate closed space where you cannot get away." but is this true? ford has relatives on the east coast. according to published accounts, she's been here recently. did she drive back and forth every time she visited? we don't know. then "the new york times"

reported that ford did graduate work at the university of hawaii. that's on an island thousands of miles in the pacific. how exactly did you get there? could it be possible that ford is claiming she can fly in order to delay the proceedings long enough that brett kavanaugh can be confirmed? that might be something the committee could ask her if she shows up on m thursday, as she says she well. they probably won't ask her, though, that would be victim shaming. she's a woman and she's telling the truth no matter what she says even when things she says turn out to be not true, they are still true by definition. watch former michigan governor jennifer granholm explain this principle. >> kavanaugh, judge, smith andgo her friend, leland kaiser, said they don't remember anything like this ever happening. and leland kaiser said she believes florida part so she doesn't remember being doesn't even remember being at a at a party where kavanaugh was present >> that actually corroborates ford's story that she was so horrified by this, she kind of

snuck out or slunk out of this apartment in a way that no one would know what happened because she was so utterly mortified. >> tucker: are you following this at home? see if you can track the reasoning here. when you are corroborating witnesses can't corroborate your story, your story has still been corroborated, may be even more so. those are the new rules here in the court of credibility. they are certainly meet the rules the washington is applying to the new story that "the new yorker" dropped last night. internet, one of kavanaugh's classmates said that kavanaugh wants wagged his genitals in her face. while that sounds awful. but in those initial conversations with "the new

yorker," the character was hesitant toy, confirm his role. after six days of consulting her memories and her attorney, she felt confident enough of her recollections to remember that kavanaugh had exposed himself am a drunken dormitory party. so it turns out she didn't actually remember what happened. none of the people she said were in the room remember what happened either. yet after talking to her lawyer for a week she suddenly remembers it.r that's enough for cnn. guilty as charged, string them up! >> tucker: are they all lies? perhaps. it certainly has a ring of truth to me. the idea that it is all made up seems preposterous at this point. >> tucker: it has a ring of truth, perfect. let's hang him. that's a joke at this point, and everyone knows on both sides, what's amazing is that republicans are playing along. last week, republicans so that all allegations against brett kavanaugh must be heard no matter how prevalent are fraudulent they are. senate republicans are the ones who made the court of

credibility possible in this country. should it a surprise anyone "the new yorker" ran this piece? on many more pieces are coming? asas many as it takes, no questn about that. we can control the senate republicans, they exist in their own world. we can remind them what's at stake here. if brett kavanaugh, a man that is literally married to george w. bush's assistant, can get conform to the supreme court, the no republican can get confirmed, even with a republican congress, ever. but it's worse than that. there is a midterm election just weeks from now.ha if you are republican, you may be wondering why should i bother to vote? you backed trump two years ago and your and your brother-in-la- from brooklyn mocked you, but you did it anyway. because you wanted to secure borders. you wanted an end to obamacare and you wanted noncrazy people on the supreme court of the united states.an you didn't get the first two and you are starting to realize you probably never will get them. but the supreme court -- that ought to be easy.

yet somehow we are all discovering it's not easy. why is that? there is a really simple reason. republicans in the senate don't really care about you. if they did care about you, they would protect you. that is what you do for people you care about. you protect them. if the republicans cared, they would protect you from the foreign invasion our immigration system has become. they will protect our children from a torrent of mandatory propaganda they face in schools that are bankrupting you. they would protect yourup privay and freedom of speech, freedom of worship from the type and i'll mom please want to crush all of these things. they protect brett kavanaugh from the smearsrs that are destroying his family and life but they want protect him and they won't protect them from the same reason they won't protect you, because it's hard and embarrassing, or because they don't feel like it. this could be a socialist country in a few years. it's moving that way. a lot of also like to be protected from that. our representatives don't seem to notice. good luck in november, gentlemen.

we are not finished with the topic of brett kavanaugh tonight. we'll talk to a liberal who backso the fbi investigation ino kavanaugh then we'll talk to tammy tammy bruce and how and hermie mcdonald. our friend martha maccallum just interviewed brett kavanaug kavanaugh. what was it like? what did you learn?? she joins us later in the show. that is next. ♪ o speak of the women i knew in college and the men i knew in college he said it's inconceivable that they could have been such thing. ♪ so to breathe better, i go with anoro. ♪ go your own way copd tries to say, "go this way." i say, "i'll go my own way, with anoro." ♪ go your own way once-daily anoro contains two medicines called bronchodilators that work together to significantly improve lung function all day and all night. anoro is not for asthma. it contains a type of medicine that increases risk of death in people with asthma. the risk is unknown in copd.

anoro won't replace rescue inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be used more than once a day. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition, high blood pressure, glaucoma, prostate, bladder, or urinary problems. these may worsen with anoro. call your doctor if you have worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain while taking anoro. ask your doctor about anoro. ♪ go your own way get your first prescription free at anoro.com.

♪ >> do you believe president trump will stand by you throughout? >> i know he's going to stand by me. he called me this afternoon and said that he standing by me. >> tucker: we are still covering the battle over judge kavanaugh's nomination to the supreme court, which most people thought it would not be difficult. it's exposing fault lines and ideas that some of us are not familiar with. we want to get to the bottom of what they are. christine setser is president of new heights communications. mazie hirono said something remarkable.ai weka played it twice. she's a sitting senator from hawaii and she said that men,

all men, are implicated in sexual assault, and women, all women, must be believed because they are women. that seems like an idea that would cut against the western understanding of justice. >> i'm not sure that's exactly what she said but i do know there is something particularly about crimes of sexual assault and a accusations of sexual assault, and that is, it's the one crime i can think of in which the that at least presumption or burden of proof is on the woman to say she really is a victim. last year i had my car stolen. when i reported it, it was not asked what did you do wrong to allow your car be stolen. >> tucker: hold on. but you were asked questions like, did you leave the keys in the car, of course you are. sexual assault is a more delicate issue for obvious reasons, but do you think that our standards of justice have changed? in other words, is the burden of proof lower? do you believe in the idea that

a person is innocent until proven guilty? we see lawmakers challenging that idea. i do but there is something very particular about cases sexual assault and rape that, for one thing, the vast majority of women never come forward and there's lots of reasons for that. one is about how difficult it would get to get to trial or get to a conviction. another reason is all the issues around shame, and the final reason is some of the things that are playing out with kavanaugh, which is particular issues around memory. when we are talking about traumatic events -- of >> tucker: all of that is true. so this is a recovered memory that we now know came out and psychotherapy, doesn't mean it's false and doesn't mean there are a lot of instances where recovered memory is false. innocent want to people, a lot of people went to prison and the '80s. it's like the satanic abuse rituals. i'm not saying it's like this but we have to ask real questions about it.

you seem to be suggesting the standards ought to be different, that we should give her the presumption of honesty and that's not how our justice system works. is it? >> i think it's important for you and your viewers to know the context of it, which is that there are no more instances of false accusations around and rape and similar crimes as there is for any other crime. >> tucker: hold on, i'm not saying otherwise. i'm saying there is a much higher incidence of false memory in recovered memory cases than in conventional cases. that's true and it's been looked at extensively by social scientists, and there's not much debate about that. it doesn't mean that's false, but if justice is your goal then you have to ask hard questions. but again, i don't understand, have we changed standards or haven't we? we see these members of congress is saying, he's a man, he is guilty. she's a woman, you must believe her. >> again, no one said that exactly. >> tucker: here is richard blumenthal saying the onus is on

him to prove his innocence. is that that it works? i thought that was the opposite of how it works. >> he said it absolutely didn't happen, fabrication. but it is something that he is asking for a very large promotion to the supreme court of the united states, so you want someone that has impeccable character, whose motives can absolutely not be questioned and he is given us nothing but doubt. >> tucker: weight. the principal, leaving kavanaugh aside, because these are lawmakers, the most powerful people, in our society. they determine what our laws are, by d definition. they are saying accused has an obligation and responsibility to come forward with evidence to rebut the claims. that is precisely the opposite of english common-law, on what your system is based, and no one have ever said that, in recent history, my living history, and you were okay without? >> what i think should happen, what dr. ford and ramirez said should happen is that there should be an fbi investigation.r >> tucker: he's a sitting

judge kavanaugh has a responsibility to come forward with an evidence to rebut the chargeso. >> i think if we are going to have this conversation about whether or not these things happened and he doesn't want an fbi investigation which by the way, he does not, then -- >> tucker: so if i accuse you of something with no physical evidence were eyewitnesses, and it's a sex crime that would destroy your reputation and your family, you now have a moral obligation or responsibility asu a senator from connecticut says, to rebut that? >> you have a obligation to defend yourself. he says he doesn't want to have an fbi y investigation. >> tucker: you want to live in a country where the accused has to disprove their charge, which is no evidence to support it,

then you are presumed guilty. >> is anyone saying he is going to jail? no. he saying he's going to be supreme court justices. >> tucker: multiple witnesses say he didn't and now i we are saying that we have to prove this guy is innocent. serious question. >> sincere answer.ue right now i think there is a very disproportionate sense of justice for women who have come forward with these crimes. i think right now we tend not to believe them and i thinkcr that all of that senator hirono and others are saying is that maybe sometimes we, if we have learned anything from the me too movement, these things happen all the time and we should believe them. >> tucker: there are false claims. i was a subject of one of them. i can tell you all about that. thank you. tammy bruce is a radio show host and contributing editor at the city journal and author of "diversity illusion." how should we assess these claims? >> with our traditional both "the new yorker" story and

christine ford. >> with our traditional standards of justice, and it's what an extraordinary accomplishment it was to develop standards of due process. you referred to medieval trials by ordeal, and the presumption of guilt. what we are hearing from students and the senators, they have no knowledge of what -- with difficulty, and the work of centuries moved away from to assure fairness to the accused, and what we are also seeing asrn the victim ideology that holds that females everywhere are necessarily the victims of male patriarchy in a rape culture, that is false. it's pure ideology. but this type of mass hysteria is the norm on campus and it's

now taking over the world at large. as you say, we are on a very dangerous, slippery slope towards government depression and mass injustice. >> tucker: tammy bruce, do you agree with that? >> yes, the interview you just had was shocking. you have brett kavanaugh effectively being used as a stand-in for all perpetrators. i think something happened to ms. ramirez and dr. ford and they are slotting judge kavanaugh into the perpetrator framework. in the name of women, many who have not ever had justice or closure, and effectively this is what the democrats are admitting. so many women have not been believed or have been heard and that is unfair. we've got to fix it but we are not going to fix it by becoming fascists and by blaming every man and presuming every man is

guilty. americans have to ask himself a very basic question. is this fair? is this a fair framework for everyone involved? the me too movement at this point has been hijacked. that was a nonpartisan movement that women could relate to. this is now being used as a weapon, clearly, it's been weaponized at this point, and not only should american men be concerned, but the women who have sons and husbands and boyfriends and brothers and fathers. my goodness! this is the opposite of what should be happening if we want real justice for women because right now you have two women have claims that are obviously difficult and would not stand up in a court of law or any kind of fair discussion. "the new yorker" piece has been reviled at this point. you've got to see that women fan who do make claims they're going to be looked at with even more suspicion because due process matters for the women come by the accusers especially, because we have to believe in the

outcome. we have to believe in the outcome and trust it. >> tucker: i could do a whole show with both of you, i wish we had more time. thank you so much. martha maccallum just ahead. what she learned in her interview with the kavanaughs earlier today that is making news. also, rod rosenstein appeared to be resigning today. until he wasn't. he thought he was getting fired but then he wasn't getting fire fired. we are not sure exactly what's happening in the white house. but we've made a lot of calls about it and we will tell you what we know, after the break.ft ♪ even if it's a better car class than the one you reserved. so no matter what, you're guaranteed to have a perfect drive. [laughter] (vo) go national. go like a pro.

see what i did there?

moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis was intense. my mom's pain from i wondered if she could do the stuff she does for us which is kinda, a lot. and if that pain could mean something worse. joint pain could mean joint damage. enbrel helps relieve joint pain, and helps stop further damage enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma other cancers, nervous system and blood disorders and allergic reactions have occurred. tell your doctor if you've been someplace where fungal infections are common. or if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have had hepatitis b, have been treated for heart failure or if you have persistent fever, bruising, bleeding or paleness. don't start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. since enbrel, my mom's back to being my mom. visit enbrel.com... and use the joint damage simulator to see how joint damage could progress. ask about enbrel. enbrel. fda approved for over 18 years.

>> tech: so you think this chip is nothing to worry about? well at safelite, we know sooner or later every chip will crack. these friends were on a trip when their windshield got chipped. so they scheduled at safelite.com. they didn't have to change their plans or worry about a thing. i'll see you all in a little bit. and i fixed it right away with a strong repair they can trust. plus, with most insurance a safelite repair is no cost to you. >> customer: really?! >> tech: being there whenever you need us that's another safelite advantage. >> singers: safelite repair, safelite replace.

>> tucker: what a news >> tucker: what a news day, it's unbelievable. competing leaks told different stories about deputy attorney general rod rosenstein today. some reports that rosenstein was lending to resign, others say he was going to be fired.d. he is still at the justice department and is scheduled to meet with the president this week.ed what is going on? one man knows. ed henry joins us tonight.

>>no he's going to meter the president on thursday. it was a strange day, one of our producers had to put out an email assuring us, "rod rosenstein is still the deputy attorney general of the united states," then quicklyro added, "right now." a source close to rosenstein said that he went too the meetig saying that he was expected to be fired by the chief of staff, john kelly. they were discussing the bombshell report about the may 27th meeting where rosenstein discussed the possibility of wearing a wire to record the president and try to invoke the 25th amendment. rosenstein says he was joking and some say this was a false flag designed by mccabe and others to get the president to overreact and help democrats who would use a rosenstein firing to impeach the president. mccabe was under federal investigation forch linking to e media and lying about it and insists he had nothing to do with us like "the new york times." it's important, rosenstein not

be fired because he oversees special counsel robert mueller. i was hosting "fox & friends" and i interviewed ian prior, he useded to work with rosenstein t the justice department. he believes rosenstein was so stoned by mccabe's antitrust behavior at that may 2017 meeting that rosenstein sarcastically said, oh, sure, i'll wear a wire and then after the meeting, he appointed mueller because rosenstein said he knew he had to keep the rush probe far from mccabe. basically, bringing in mueller who might be seen as more fair is a former fbi director, was important because rosenstein was so alarmed that mccabe and lisa page, who was in the may 2017 meeting, whereafter get the president. that is what the allies have believed and it's interesting that people are trying to say that. it's fascinating. >> tucker: you ever spent time and a latin american capital where there is an ongoing swirl of rumor and conspiracy and no one believes the official story of anything? debtors washington right now. >>ht i read about it. >> tucker: is like a graham greene novel. joining us tonight, author and columnist mark steyn who has

x-ray vision in stories like this. h what do you think this is really about? >> this is, as you said, the class classic espionage, wilderness of mirrors. basically the idea is, this is a set up. this was deliberately leaked by an anti-trump person to promote trump into firing rod rosenstein in order to assist the democrats in the midterm election. that's why rosenstein's position is secure. and if you are less conspiratorial though, it's clear that there is no honor among thieves and the vast number of people that have been removed from the highest levels of the fbi and department of justice in the last few months all have an incentive to slip the shiv to rosenstein, as the guy who is still there. they are basically in the position -- you know how it works with corporate crimes when the u.s. attorney tries to persuade the chief financial

officer to turn on the chief executive officer, that's theo position these guys are in. in order to avoid their own criminal liability, leaking stuff about rosenstein who is still there -- so to be super conspiratorial, it is actually, if he did offer to wear a wire and use the 25th amendment to depose trump, it is in trump's interest to keep him as deputy attorney general forever and encourage mccabe and comey and the rest of them to leak dirt on him.zy it's crazy when this happens, when a latin american bureaucracy describes in effect to try to nullify the result of the election. >> tucker: that's exactly -- and that's why it reminds me of managua in 1988. really quickly, if you think that rosenstein is your enemy, he probably actually is on some

level trump's enemy, wouldn't you want to keep him close and not cast him out into book contract world? >> yeah, absolutely. i think if i was rosenstein as well, i think book contract w isn't an option. there are too many books out there. >> tucker: your very right. >> we had an attempted internal coup against the winner of the 2016 election. rosenstein should be fired and he should have recused himself but it's politically impossibles to do that. the thing to do now is keep him there forever and make him suffer. >> tucker: [laughs] >> and i hope -- trump should do that, he should find humiliating things for him to do. if we are going to have all these stupid things where you have to investigate what happened at a high school dance in 1973, deep in idaho or wherever the next judge comes from, send him over there for, like, a six-year

investigation investigation into what happened at the middle school prom in 1964. trump should find ways to torture him. >> tucker: and you've got to wear a funny hat while you do it. maybe a viking hat with horns. i like your style, mark steyn. thank you very much for that. >>. thanks a lot, tucker prayed >> tucker: a new study from yale researchers took a close look at what the illegal immigrant populationlo actuallys in the united states and found that it's more than double what we thought it was. what does it say about our borders? that's next. was, amore of martha maccallum's exclusive interview with brett kavanaugh and his wife. martha joins us coming up. ♪ are you okay? even when i was there, i never knew when my symptoms would keep us apart. so i talked to my doctor about humira. i learned humira can help get, and keep uc under control

when other medications haven't worked well enough. and it helps people achieve control that lasts. so you can experience few or no symptoms. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. be there for you, and them. ask your gastroenterologist about humira. with humira, control is possible.

you wouldn't accept from any one else. why accept it from an allergy pill? flonase relieves sneezing, itchy, watery eyes and a runny nose, plus nasal congestion, which most pills don't. it's more complete allergy relief. flonase. ♪ the new capital one savor card.

earn 4% cash back on dining and 4% on entertainment. now when you go out, you cash in. what's in your wallet? i'm ray and i quit smoking with chantix. i tried to quit smoking for years on my own. i couldn't do it. i needed help. for me, chantix worked. it did. chantix, along with support, helps you quit smoking. chantix, without a doubt, reduced my urge to smoke.

when you try to quit smoking, with or without chantix, you may have nicotine withdrawal symptoms. some people had changes in behavior or thinking, aggression, hostility, agitation, depressed mood, or suicidal thoughts or actions with chantix. serious side effects may include seizures, new or worse heart or blood vessel problems, sleepwalking or allergic and skin reactions which can be life-threatening. stop chantix and get help right away if you have any of these. tell your healthcare provider if you've had depression or other mental health problems. decrease alcohol use while taking chantix. use caution when driving or operating machinery. the most common side effect is nausea. i don't think about cigarettes anymore. talk to your doctor about chantix. >> tucker: there is a new >> tucker: there is a new study out of yale, three researchers looked into thee question, how many people live in this country illegally. the number you hear is usually around 11 million but nobody really knows.

their conclusion, which has been disputed by some, is that it is at least 22 million. it's double what we say it is. jordan ott, is clearly a lot more than we are pretending. how did we get here? a columnist and author of her brand-new book out tomorrow called "melting pot," one of the smartest things i've read in a very long time. he joins us tonight. thank you very much for coming on. >> thanks for having me. be when you meditated on this question for a long time. the question isn't how many millions or tens of millions of people are here illegally. the question really is, how did we get here? how did this happen? >> one thing to keep in mindnd s it not just the democrats. it's also republicans who decided that this was useful for their purposes, the republicans were more interested in the end republicans who feel this way, both of whom worked together to have a more worker friendlybl immigration and economic policy across the board.

and that has been huge dereliction. >> tucker: one of the reasons i was so excited to get your book, which i was reading this afternoon, is that you are, i hope, starting a debate about this question. no matter what side leaders are on, they will be a conversation, irrational one, not about race, but about the economic effects of immigration on the country. why haven't we had that conversation? >> if the economics but it's also the core idea of conservatism's. the idea thatt we care, not just about the here and now, we care about the future. we care, not just about the immigrant and what kind of work they can do, but about the children and grandchildren of the immigrants. so what we have right now is a situation where we are in a combustible state and people art trying to turn one kind of american against another.e "these older people in middle it." america, they just don't get it." and others saying, we need to replace them essentially with an entirely new people.

they need to be enlightened or get with the program or get out. that elite attitude of contempt for ordinary working americans, some of whom themselves are immigrants or the children of immigrants, is incredibly toxic and has fueled this legitimate question or whether these elites consider themselves american elites or whether they are opposed to thepr interests f this country. i find it pretty terrifying that we got to the point where elites have almost seceded from the country and that has enabled them to build their wealth and power. >> tucker: like the corporations they serve, they are multinational. the passport is just a way to get you -- it doesn't have any meaning. nationality doesn't mean anything. they are owned by sovereign wealth funds. >> who actually suffers because of that? a lot of the time, the people who suffer are the second generation children of immigrants who are themselves the working class. and the thing is, the same government, the same elite that is not looking after the

interests of older stock american, later generation americans, also the second generation americans, they are having a tough time, you say, we'll replace it with a new round. >> tucker: [laughs] read the book. it's worth it. thank you very much. congrats. >> thank you very much. >> tucker: brett kavanaugh and his wife just gave an exclusive interview to our friend martha maccallum at fox. some of the highlights and i martha is here to tell us what it was like to do it, after the break. ♪ - in a crossfit gym, we're really engaged with

who we are as people and making everybody feel welcome. ordering custom ink t-shirts has been a really smart decision for our business. - [narrator] custom ink has hundreds of products and free shipping. upload your logo or start your design today at customink.com.

♪ >> tucker: brett kavanaugh and his wife ashley appeared on "the story" with martha maccallum an hour ago on the show, he categorically denied all allegations of sexual misconduct rallied against him.

watch. >> i've never sexually assaulted anyone, not in high school, not ever. i've treated women with dignity and respect. listen to people who have knownt the best for my whole life, the women who have known me since high school. the 65, who overnight signed a letter from high school saying i always treated them with dignity and respect. >> tucker: kavanaugh's wife came to his defense as well.d >> i know brett, i've known him for 17 years and this is not at all -- it's really hard to b believe. he's decent and kind and good, i and i know his heart. this is not consistent with brett. >> tucker: martha maccallum on our set. they look in pain, both of them. >> watching it again, this is really hard for them, really hard for them. i felt like they were both kind of tamping down the tears. they were this close to crying. i think this is obviously

incredibly emotionally devastating. i think they thought and we all thought that first day at the hearing when democrats tried to shut down the whole hearing, that it couldn't really get any worse than that, then they think they are all the way through and suddenly these accusations start coming out of the woodwork. i think it would wreak havoc on anybody. they seem very solid together and very united in the effort. i said to them, at some point don't you say, forget it? it's not worth it anymore, it's too painful. but that's not an option. >> tucker: for a job that pays less than the average lawyer sometimes.s. you ask them about their girls, their family. here is the response from mrs. kavanaugh. >> it's very difficult to have these conversations with your children, which we have had to have. on broader terms, for our youngest. but they know brett and that they the truth. and we told them at the beginning of this process, this will be not fun sometimes. you're going to hear things that -- people feel strongly and

you need to know that. just remember, you know your da dad. >> tucker: i bet those girlsad were not prepared for this. >> how could they be? you can imagine at their age, they are at ages ten and 12 in that age range, i'm sure it's devastating for them. to have to explain -- i asked him specifically point blank about all the allegations and we talked about them in very specific demographic terms. i can't imagine what it's like to kind of frame that issue, but she also said, they know their dad.me even in the beginning when he got roughed up in that first day, he said his daughter came down and gave him a hug that night. he needs a lot of hugs to get through this. the allegations are what they are, he's going to face this on thursday. christine ford will be heard from. she'll have her moment to speak, to make your peace. there is no doubt that this has been extraordinarily difficult for them.

especially vinegar allegations over the weekend. >> tucker: when clarence thomas was accused of inappropriate behavior in 1991, he made a decision he was going to fight back in a very tough way. he was not going to go down. do you think kavanaugh has made that decision? >> kavanaugh was not in clarence thomas fighting shape today. i'll say that. i played that clip from clarence thomas is -- when he just basically level to the senate judiciary committee. it is so, so powerful. that's not the frame of mind that brett kavanaugh appeared to be in today, although he may be that mood on thursday. i asked him several times, you say this is all false, so what do you think is behind this? where do you think this iser coming from? is there some kind of political vendetta against you that's being played out? we all know the corners that could be coming from but he did not want to go there at all. he doesn't want to conjecture about any of that. and clarence thomas clearly called it what he thought it was. c a high-tech lynching and he

felt the senate judiciary committee had sunk to such lows to entertain some of the accusations against him, that they entertained.it that was his feeling, and they persevered. whether or not we will see some of that fire in brett kavanaugh come thursday, we will see. >> tucker:e he's going to need it. martha maccallum, congrats on that interview. >> thanks, tucker. great to see you. >> tucker: wow. we will sum that up after the break. ♪ that's why we created expedia's add-on advantage. now after booking your flight, you unlock discounts on select hotels right until the day you leave. ♪ add-on advantage. discounted hotel rates when you add on to your trip. only when you book with expedia.

to me, he's, phil micwell, dad.o golfer.

so when his joint pain from psoriatic arthritis got really bad, it scared me. and what could that pain mean? joint pain could mean joint damage. enbrel helps relieve joint pain, helps stop irreversible joint damage, and helps skin get clearer. enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, nervous system and blood disorders, and allergic reactions have occurred. tell your doctor if you've been someplace where fungal infections are common, or if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have had hepatitis b, have been treated for heart failure, or if you have persistent fever, bruising, bleeding, or paleness. don't start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. since enbrel, dad's back to being dad. visit enbrel.com and use the joint damage simulator to see how your joint damage could be progressing. ask about enbrel. enbrel. fda approved for over 15 years.

>> tucker: something pretty amazing happened in the last ten days. one half of our political establishment has announced that due process and presumption of innocence are no longer relevant. the other half has said very little about it. where does that leave the rest of us? those of us who like to be protected by due process in the presumption of innocence, unprotected. because both sides share a set of common assumptions.

i unpacked this in a book.that is in some detail, it's because of ship of fools, and it explains why normal people don't have advocates anymore. you can look at it if you'd like, but we will be back. the lying, pomposity, smugness and group think . the sworn enemy.sean hannity is right now. >> sean: a great show, we have a lot to get to. welcome to "hannity." we are witnessing a total miscarriage of justice at the highest court in the land. there is no due process, no presumption of innocence and no burden of proof. as we speak, we have the democratic party, the left in america, the median in america, all their friends are literally saying, guilt by accusation and it trying to the character career reputation of judge brett kavanaugh based on what is decades old uncorroborated delegations. -- allegation.and categorically refuting it.