>> black conservative movement. steve: thank you so much. thank you for joining us. . mark: hello america, i'm mark levin. this is "life, liberty & levin." we have a great guest, george gilder, how are you? >> great to see you, mark. mark: i've read you for years, mark, we've never met. you attended harvard and you still are successful. that's a good thing. >> i wasn't successful at harvard. mark: yeah, you pioneered the formulation of supply side economics when you served as chairman of the institute's

economic roundtable. program director for the manhattan institute, you're the author of men in marriage. visible man. wealth and poverty, which was a big book that had a big influence on me. the spirit of enterprise. microcosm. telecosm. and the silicon eye. and now your newest become, life after google, the fall of big data and the rise of the blockchain economy. a lot to unravel here. let's get started this way. capitalism versus socialism. explain. >> well, capitalism is -- derives from the latin word for head, kaput, and capitalism is the mind-based system and the key characteristic of the human mind is that we're creative, and as albert hirschman, the

princeton economist once put it, of creativity always comes as a surprise to us, and if it didn't, planning would prevail and socialism would work. creativity is the foundation of capitalism. and this is -- and socialism is based on planning. it's based on the assumption that we'd already know all we need to know in order to plan our future, and so it leads to tyranny, and that's really the difference. liberty versus tyranny as someone once put it. mark: isn't this the general problem with progressivism, across the board. that is they think they know all they need to know, and now it's just a matter of redistributing ideas, redistributing wealth,

redistributing. isn't that part of the problem, that's easy for people to understand where the future is difficult for people to understand. >> the future is unpredictable and in order to deal with it successfully, you'll have to learn, and learning has a lot of constraints. economic growth is the increase of knowledge and the increase of knowledge is learning, and the most widely documented phenomenon in all business is called the learning curve, with every doubling of total sales, you get a 20-30% drop in prices or in costs. and this drop in costs is evident across all industries. documented by -- of the bain and company and the boston consulting group and all these learning curve-base

consultancies. learning is the heart of capitalism. learning is finding out things you don't already know. and that depends on openness to creativity, to surprise, and surprise is really crucial to capitalism. you can't predict products of a really creative process. mark: so when the government gets in the business of regulating that, of redistributing wealth, of punishing some businesses, subsidizing other businesses, am i correct in hearing what you're saying is it's an attack on many things but especially knowledge. >> if you -- a government guarantee prohibits learning and thus prohibits economic growth. all economic growth is fundamentally learning.

all wealth is fundamentally knowledge, as thomas sole observed, the neanderthal in his cave had all the physical resources we have today. the difference between our age and the stone age is entirely the growth of knowledge, and the growth of knowledge is learning, and that means economic growth is primarily learning, and learning can't be guaranteed. learning is finding out things you don't already know. so any guarantee prohibits learning, and thus prohibits growth. mark: is not the grand irony, then, that the progressive mind-set claims that their decisions are based on science and knowledge, when, in fact, it's not based on science or knowledge, it's based on

ideology? >> definitely based on doctrine, and dogma. it's really -- in my new book life after google, i do a criticism of what i call google marxism. mark: what is google marxism. >> marx, his great error, real mistake, was to imagine that the industrial revolution of the 19th century, all those railways and dark satanic mills and turbines and the beginning of electricity represented the final human achievement in productivity. so in the future, what would matter is not the creation of wealth but the redistribution of wealth. google comes back today and says that it's search engines, it's machine learning, it's artificial intelligence, it's

robotics, it's biotech. it's the ultimate human attainment, and in the future, most of us will be able to retire, to beaches while sergei brynn and larry page of google fly off to remote planets with elon musk in a winner-take-all universe. and this is a belief that bill buckley used to call imminentizing the eskaton, final things, final days, and each generation of technologies imagine their technological vision, whether it's railroads or spaceflight or artificial intelligence is the final attainment, and this is really what socialism is about. it's about saying that what we have now is all we're going to

get, that we know as much as we need to know to plan the entire future, and that is fundamentally hostile to human creativity. mark: this mind-set, this google marxism, it cuts across all these platforms or does it? facebook, twitter, how about the silicon valley? you've referenced that in the past as, i think, silicon valley marxism, isn't that right? >> there are a lot of philosophers and philosopher kings in silicon valley. and when they pronounce on public issues, they imagine that their technology is an escatton, an ultimate thing and usurps human minds. my friend ray kerswhile introduced the concept of

singularity, the moment when our computer technology would exceed human minds on all dimensions, and at that point, the technology would produce new machines in a cascade of inventions that leave humans far behind. mark: is that possible? >> no. mark: why? >> because this artificial intelligence is a machine. and remember, i stressed surprise. machines, if machines surprised you, they probably breaking down. machines are really deterministic almost by definition, and determinism in information theory, which underlies all of silicon valley, information is what's not determined by the machine. information is the creativity of capitalism. mark: so machines have masters

called human beings. >> machines have masters. curt girdle proved in 1951 that any logical scheme, including a computer, anything, is necessarily dependent upon axioms outside the box. what's inside the box is the machine, but any machine is necessarily dependent on what alan turin called an oracle. a source of creativity, surprise, outside the box. mark: can machines have judgment? >> no, not really. they can repeat or imitate processes of judgment supplied to them by human beings, but every symbol that's employed in the machine has to be defined

by a human interpreter, and so, so the whole idea that these machines shuffling symbols actually have meaning without human providers is itself delusional, and i think it's really ironic that all these brilliant computer scientists of silicon valley have lost traffic the very essence of their science. the essence of their science was begun by turin and gertel and artificial intelligence refuted these original insights which necessarily make computers dependent on human inputs. mark: so if we understand technology, macrotechnology, we have really nothing to fear, do we? >> no, this is just continued evolution of the economy. it's not as big a change at all

as between agriculture and factories in the 19th century. this complete transformation of the global economy with the first machines of the industrial revolution, exceeded in impact and drama this introduction of robotics, which is just kind of an extension of all the existing robots that are -- run our existing factories. it just -- and -- but, on the other hand, it isn't -- it is exciting, these new machines that are being generated, and they will, like all previous machines increase employment. human beings are not employed because they're unproductive. they're employed because they are productive. and so machines that render human beings more productive

render them more employable, not less employable. the fallacy that the a.i. is going to destroy jobs. mark: what's a.i.? >> artificial intelligence, artificial intelligence, machine learning, is going to destroy jobs. everybody believes that. it's nonsense. all such machines enhance human capabilities, and thus, make humans more employable and better jobs and more exciting jobs and safer jobs. mark: and improve lifestyles. >> pardon? mark: and improve lifestyles. >> of course, in a steady expansion is of knowledge and wealth. mark: and, of course, who services these machines? you need engineers, you need mechanics, you need whatever, you need people who develop software. people who develop hardware and so forth and so on. when we come back, i want to ask you something about

cryptocosm. this is a big word that has a lot of meaning, and you're telling me, before we came on the program and about what you're saying in your book is google will be one day rather passe, in fact, there's going to be technology that leapfrogs it and facebook and twitter and the rest of them. this is fascinating. ladies and gentlemen, don't forget, almost every week night you can sign me up on levin tv, crtv.com/mark, or give us a call at 844-levin tv. 844-levin tv. we'd love to have you over there. we'll be right back. [ phone rings ] what?!

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that's it! this feud just went mobile. with xfinity xfi you get the best wifi experience at home. and with xfinity mobile, you get the best wireless coverage for your phone. ...you're about to find out! you don't even know where i live... hello! see the grinch in theaters by saying "get grinch tickets" into your xfinity x1 voice remote. a guy just dropped this off. he-he-he-he. . mark: george gilder, life after google. so you feel that we're on the precipice of leapfrogging these platforms, these technologies like google and facebook and twitter and so forth. you use this word cryptocosm. you can explain? >> the internet needs a new security architecture. anybody who goes on the internet knows it. the constant demand for new

user names, passwords, p.i.n.s, mother's maiden names, all the apparatus of security defeats itself on the internet today, and an -- mark: what is the purpose of all that? >> it's supposedly to stop fraud and to create a basis for transactions on the internet. the internet wasn't designed for transactions. it was designed for e-mail and hypertexting and communication. with communications first protocol. and today, since it's becoming a commercial engine, the internet, it needs a security first protocol, and today, you have to virtually strip naked before the camera in order to

conduct a transaction on the internet. you have to know yourself user names and passwords for all the hundreds and thousands of possible web pages in which you might transact. it's just absurd system. mark: cumbersome. >> cumbersome and moreover, it's a porous pyramid that we're all the money and power rises to the top, to companies like google and facebook and whatever. and the cryptocosm is a new architecture for the internet that's based first on security. security first in which rather than having you learn user names and passwords for all websites across the internet, instead, you have a particular

identity establishes on a blockchain which is immutable database through time. mark: all right, hold on. what is a blockchain? >> a block campaign is an immutable database distributed through the internet. rather than have all your data in some big data warehouse in the cloud, as they call it, all the data is distributed across all the nodes of the network, so that any hacker who hax one computer can gain nothing except what's in that particular computer, because the information is distributed across the network, you have to capture 51% of all the nodes on the network in order to defraud the network. mark: let me try it this way. you've got a bulk of information about me, mark levin, but bits and pieces are

in different parts. so if somebody hacks this part, they don't have enough for this part. they hack this part, they don't have enough for this part. >> they hack the entire blockchain which includes your identification in a time stamped immutable form is distributed across all the nodes with the entire blockchain in its mathematically compressed form on every node, and the nodes are constantly communicating with one another. unless you capture 51% of all the nodes on the internet which is essentially impossible, you can't change anything on the blockchain. mark: is this being developed now? >> it's being developed now, it was invented, essentially by a few academics, but it was

essentially incorporated in a product by sitoshi nakamoto in 2008 and it's become the heart of the cryptocosm and all embellishments and elaborations of it are under way today, and it's the most exciting thing that's going on in the world economy. it's like a new internet, plus a new global financial system being incubated simultaneously today all around the world. mark: now this new financial system. you talk about things like bitcoin. what are these new financial systems? who's behind the financial system? >> well, today, of the existing financial system. a lot of people don't realize it, but it's essentially come to the end of the line. i wrote about it in the scandal of money.

today, the biggest industry in the world economy by far is currency trading. just shuffling currencies back and forth. it's 73 times as big as all trade in goods and services, 25 times all global gdp and it doesn't even accomplish stable or meaningful monetary values across the world economy. its sole function really is to endow central banks with the capability of generating money and imposing some 250 -- it's doomsday pot of $250 trillion of debt on the world economy. this system is not going to be viable over the future, so it's

providential in my view today that scores of thousands of the most brilliant young entrepreneurs in the world economy are creating a new monetary system. mark: a private monetary system? >> it's public, it's private, it's ubiquitous, it starts with bitcoin, which, as i explained in my book has various flaws that mean that it is not going to be in its current form, at least, the foundation for a new currency. s sitoshi was trying to create a new goal and the monetary element has endured through the centuries and the monetary premise for all the greatest

eras of industrial development in the history of the world. the great miracle of capitalism was founded on money, which was identified as gold, and sitoshi wanted to create a new digital gold, and he almost did it, and now there are thousands of people trying to actually accomplish this goal, and when they do, it will once again restore money on a real basis that allows it to be a measuring stick rather than a magic wand for central bank. mark: we'll be right back. ♪

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>> life americans news hackers. i met ben. pastors gather outside the russian embassy after the russian coast guard opened fire imported for ukrainian naval vessels in the peninsula. russia federal security overseas the coast guard confirmed and opened fire saying ukraine provoked the incident. two crewmen were incident hurt. there's an electoral college

system and they argue it encourages candidates to focus on people posting states while ignoring the rest of the country they are arguing for proportional allocation whether the note winner take all system used in the states. i'm matt fit, now back to "life, liberty and levin". for all your headline log on to foxnews .com . mark: so george gilder, people are going to think we're painting a brave new world here, but you're saying these are not abstractions or theory, these are realities in their infancy. that is this new form of international currency. or this new form of communication and technology. this is called cryptocosm. >> the cryptocosm. mark: the cryptocosm. again, what does that mean, exactly, and how will society

react to such a thing? it's rather revolutionary. >> well, it's revolutionary but it restores the individual identity as the heart of the world economy. it allows facts and truths to be established on the internet. it makes the individual paramount. it exalts the individual human mind, the creative force in the world, the most powerful intellectual entity in the history of the universe, paramount, again. you know, people talk about artificial intelligence usurping the human mind, but when big blue defeated kasparov in chess, kasparov was using 14 watts between 12 and 14 watts

of energy. big blue was using effectively gigawatts of energy. billions of watts of energy and linked to other databases all across the world economy. the human mind is all that created big blue, all that programmed big blue, all that provided any intelligence to big blue. the human mind is the ultimate creative force. and the image of their creator, and this is the heart of what the cryptocosm does, it reestablishes the individual creator as the heart of the system rather than having some great system of databases in the cloud be the heart of the system. mark: and it's all without government. >> it's all without government.

well, government's very important. government provides what an information theory would call a throw entropy carrier, a predictable carrier for the creative surprising contributions of capitalism, but the low entropy carrier, the predictable systems of family, morality, regulation, law, epitomized by the genius of the constitution and the founders. that's a low entropy carrier that allows high entropy, unpredictable surprises of creativity. mark: then there is big government, which is difference, which regulates, which taxes. >> and guarantees, this is what i drill it owhen you guarantee something, you prohibit learning, learning is a process where you have to be -- where

it has to be falsifiable. you have to be able to disprove your learning process, and if you can't, if it's guaranteed by the government, it prohibits learning, and thus stifles economic growth. mark: and what is -- i've never quite understood, we have this debate about net neutrality. sounds counterintuitive to me. what is net neutrality? >> a scheme of price controls for the internet. you know, the only thing that really matters with regard to whether all the various bits and bites are treated equally across the internet is how much bandwidth there is. if there's a lot of investment in bandwidth, net neutrality is inevitable. if you have the best content for the internet, you want it to be on everybody's conduit.

you don't want to restrict it to one particular set of pipes. if you have the best communication system across the internet, you want everybody's content on it. there's no incentive to buy a serve or twist or suppress or allocate a bandwidth unless bandwidth is scarce and what makes bandwidth scarce are laws, are net neutrality laws that impose price controls across the internet on every connection, and thus, mean that companies like at&t go off and buy time warner and verizon pursues the "huffington post" rather than really focusing on

the huge opportunities and providing bandwidth for an ever expanding cryptocosm. mark: leave it alone, you politicians don't even know what you're talking about. pretty much? >> pretty much. i think you pretty much have it. mark: ladies and gentlemen, don't forget, most week nights, we'd love to have you at levin tv where i do my program there on our digital tv show. we are on crtv.com/mark, or call us at 844-levin tv. 844-levin tv. we'll be right back.

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goodnight clocks goodnight socks goodnight stars goodnight air good night noises everywhere

time to say goodnight. goodnight . mark: apple, amazon, google, these are like the biggest

corporations in the world, but ten years from now, they may not be, right? >> well, ten years ago the biggest corporations in the world by market cap were exxon, walmart, the petroleum bank, china petroleum and the industrial and commercial bank of china. ten years later the top four companies in the world are apple, amazon, google and microsoft by market cap. i mean, who would have predicted that? and i believe that in the next ten years, there will be a similar turnover, and there will be cryptocosmic companies who will dominate the list of the top market caps in the world. mark: do you think, back to your industrial revolution point, we are in a constant state of economic revolution. depending on, you know, the

extent to which the government interferes, like you were saying, socialism, pure socialism or communism, they kill knowledge, they kill -- they're police states, but the freer society, the more progress, the more liberty, the better the quality of life. i mean within rules and laws, we understand and the institution, is that about right? >> yeah, absolutely. it can accommodate surprise. a surprise to a socialist is always a disruption of the plan. mark: that's right. you once wrote a successful economy depends on the proliferation of the rich, on creating a large class of risk-taking men, who are willing to shun the easy channels of a comfortable life in order to create new enterprise, win huge profits and invest them again. do you think our country today,

do you think most people -- forget about the elites, do you think most people still believe that? >> i hope so. polls indicate that young people are increasingly estranged from capitalism. i think largely because of a great government effort to guarantee futures through the student loan program. $1.5 trillion of guaranteed money for students. those aren't really loans. loans require a bank to scrutinize the borrower and it's an intelligent learning process in capitalism. this is guaranteed money for the university system, and the university system took the money and ran. students ended up paying just as much as before, but all the prices went up faster than in

any other product in the whole economy. it's one of the great scandals of recent decades, but it shows the effects of government attempts to guarantee stuff. you guarantee stuff, you stifle learning and you produce failure. mark: is this why -- let's take an example, a prominent example. climate change, so-called. is this why we can never have an honest debate about it. suddenly you are a denier. you can't discuss the so-called science, shuts down knowledge, shuts down debate, shuts down the human mind and we just all line up. >> absolutely. mark: another examples of that too, right? >> that's as good as example as there is. you aren't allowed to debate -- i mean climate change is a real

phenomena, climate is constantly changing, however, you know, the roman period, the minoan period, the medieval period just as hot by most evidence substantially hotter than it is today, and so it's hard to say that climate change is a big threat today when previous episodes of global warming were regarded as optimal or great triumphant periods of human advance and progress. so i think it's really rather bizarre, this effort to suppress any -- but this is a way to blame trump for the weather, republicans for the weather. imagine. has the left ever developed such an ingenious campaigning

strategy as to blame the weather on the republicans? people are always dissatisfied with the weather. it's worth remembering, though, we had dust bowls in the 1930s when temperatures were just about as high as today, and you know, the weather is always changing. it's always unsatisfactory, and if you can blame it on the republicans, you got a big political coup. mark: that's right, knowledge and anti-knowledge seems to be reversed when it comes to the left. we'll be right back. you ok there, kurt? we're about to move. karate helps... relieve some of the house-buying... stress. at least you don't have to worry about homeowners insurance. call geico. geico... helps with... homeowners insurance?

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. mark: george gilder, you have something called the israel test. what's the israel test? >> it's a book i wrote about five or six years ago which focused on israel is the epitome of a successful inventive society. it's really the most successful technological country in the world today. most of american companies are dependent on israeli laboratories and inventions, the cryptocosm really began in

israel when the tallic buderratic visited and he was a master of bitcoin and all colored coins as they called them and he established etherrium which produced $20 billion of new initial coin offerings in the last 12 months, which really solving this 90% drop in initial public offerings. mark: why israel? >> because israel is creative, and the image of their creator, it's inventive, it's really the epitome of a creative capitalist country, and that's why it's hated. that's why it's so -- there's so much hostility to it.

there's no other reason. mark: it used to be a socialist economy but under netanyahu turned capitalist. >> netanyahu turned it around and now it's a flourishing capitalist economy despite a big government burden imposed by the military defenses which they got to maintain, and so essentially, the big question of the israel test is, do you admire success? do you try to emulate success and achievement or do you envy it and resent it? and the people who succeed in the world admire people, other successful people, and want to emulate them. want to imitate them. the failures in the world look at success and envy and resent it, and that's really the great

divide, in all our hearts and across the world economy, and i sum it up as the israel test. mark: very good. we'll be right back. are you taking the tissue test? yep, and my teeth are yellow.

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mark: george, we will do the impossible here. in one minute and a half where you see this country in ten years? mac life after google. it is dominated by an entirely new architecture of the internet and entirely new basis for global money and and an entirely new financial system. it's transformed america as one of our recent presidents described it that only transformed and await the resource the rights and identities of individuals that understand that the one mount

source of creativity in the world economy is the human mind and it is modeled on the distribution of the human mind. the human mind is not conglomerated in a few clouds but distributed around the world and what determines whether a society succeeded or failed is whether they accommodate the surprising and providential creativity of human beings, creative in the image of their creator. that is the great issue. i think the cryptic has him endows individuals once again with control over their content, control over identities, with avenues for their aspiration and creativity. mark: should not fear it.

we should embrace it. it's been a great pleasure. >> thank you so much, mark. mark: see you next time on "life, liberty and levin". ororo vacation. chris wallace, - - >>chris: i am chris wallace on this thanksgiving weekend. as the 20/20 campaign heats up, will only get worse? ♪at odds with the supreme court chief justice. >> i think we have to ã everybody knows it's totally out of control, and with the cia over the involvement of the saudi crown prince involvement with the murder of jamal khashoggi. >> they did not come to a