service, five years combat duty, an entire year of his life ruined on a process crime, and all these other people go free, we are in the middle of a constitutional crisis. equal justice, equal application of our laws. we'll have more tomorrow. let not your heart be troubled. laura ingraham i wish i had an extra hour tonight. i wish you said go ahead, hannity, i'm taking the night off. >> laura: okay. whatever. >> sean: welcome to the laura ingraham show, i'm the hannity, filling in for laura >> laura: sean all of the cheryl mills, people like -- people forget there's so much stuff that happened from the fall of 2016 to today. >> sean: yeah. >> laura: obviously mueller, all the stuff we're learning about with flynn tonight. it just swamps all this other stuff that happened, we're going to talk about it with chaffetz. >> sean: you know what fries me though?

this man's life, this is how we treat our heroes? because he didn't remember a fact. lying, and the fbi didn't even think this guy lied. this is wrong. and i am worried that we have one justice system if you're a democrat or hillary and another for the rest of us. >> laura: or cheryl mills. sean i agree with you. i think again our viewers, people across the country, a lot of this stuff is just complicated, they're addenda and redactions and trying to follow what the substantial assistance flynn gave, we don't really know. that's all kind of actioned out. >> sean: remember this is all information they obtained illegally against general flynn. >> laura: also, it wasn't collusion before the election to throw the election to russia. at least what we know that's out the window. that's certainly nothing to do with flynn. i think that's what people have to keep their frame around, the frame of reference and the timing of what they're saying. a false statement is never good.

you can't lie to investigators, but you also don't use these scam special counsel investigations to go trolling on this magic mission to try to find wrongdoing where it doesn't exist. that's what i've always been concerned about. >> sean: i think he deserved better than this. >> laura: i agree. sean thanks so much. i'm laura ingraham this is the "ingraham angle" on a very busy news night here in washington. this show has it all for you. we have politics, culture, startling rejection of history. but first: breaking news as i just said in the mueller probe as the sentencing documents against former trump national security advisor michael flynn just dropped. these are heavily redacted revealing among other things that flynn provided substantial assistance and gave 19 interviews, sat 19 times before the special counsel and other doj investigations. now as a result of flynn's cooperation, mueller and his

team are recommending no jail time. it's important to note, the documents presented tonight do not provide specifics about what exactly mueller has learned from flynn. only that he provided documents and communications. now what issues those communications referred to tonight is anyone's guess. remember this has been a saga that has enveloped the entirety of donald trump's presidency. in the process destroyed as sean said this good man's life. even if flynn does serve no prison time, the judge agrees with the prosecutor here, imagine how his life has been thrown into complete tumult? and for what? was this 18 month process good for the country? are we better off? did we stave off future russian involvement in our elections you because a three star general had to bow to the special counsel and their helpers?

i think we have to go through this methodically tonight and we're going to do this. real questions remain and real questions must be answered as this investigation continues to move forward. although it looks like it's wrapping up. two moan who have been studying this report, former deputy at this time independent counsel and white water investigator saul weisenberg and fox news contributor jason chaffetz and victor davis hanson a senior fellow at the hoover institution and author of the forthcoming book the case for trump. saul let's start with you. your thoughts after reading these documents? >> well my thoughts are first of all, the general would have received probation no matter what. whether he cooperated a little or cooperated a lot. like you say the key parts of how he assisted have been redacted. what stands out the most is that a lot of people thought mueller was going to use the sentencing memos to tell the world about his case because he's afraid that his final memo may not be

publicized. he didn't do that here. in fact he showed remarkable professionalism by keeping redacted, he could have said here is how he helped and it could have been a bombshell and he didn't do that. to me that's the big take away. the memo is a did youed because all the good stuff is redacted. >> laura: jason, here is part period of time memo: it doesn't impose a term of incarceration it's is important and warranted. i guess it's the meaning of substantial assistance. >> well you can be polite. you can comply. you can answer all their questions. donald trump has answered all their questions. he's been as open and transparent as anything p i think saul is right there was no bombshell in here because there's no bombshell! it's that simple. if they had him on collusion with russia to affect the election absolutely they would have gone after him. >> laura: he pled to two counts

of lying to investigators. >> but that's a process crime. he should have filled out the proper paperwork. we're not here to excuse it. but it's the inconsistent application of the law that drives everybody crazy. i can count -- i can't tell you how many people came before the oversight committee when i was the chairman and they lied to us. we referred it to the department of justice and said we're not interested. then with donald trump you betcha, they're gonna go after -- they gave immunity to hillary clinton's closest advisors. >> laura: i forgot that until tonight. >> in fairness to mueller that's not his jurisdiction. mueller has a specific thing he's supposed to look at. he's not supposed to look at cheryl mills. >> but he's not looking at collusion with russia on the election. this stuff happened after. >> laura: vdh i want to get you in on this. the actions we're talking about here, his conversation with the

f fbi, that they didn't believe included lies. they did not believe, including petr strzok who did the interview with flynn. he went back to headquarters and they didn't think he lied. those were the 1001 violations, lying about his conversation with the russian ambassador whether that conversation included a conversation about reference to easing up on the sanctions or don't go crazy on the sanctions, in other words we're coming in we're going to get rid of the sanctions. apparently he either misremembered or wasn't forthcoming on that. it didn't go into well what happened before this in 2016? were you setting up some deal to make it easier for russia to interfere in our elections? which again is what the special counsel was set up to examine. that type of collusion. even with the redactions, when it comes to flynn at least, there wasn't any collusion on his part. the question is, were there any

other figures associated with the trump administration or trump campaign that could be still as saul alluded to caught up in this dragnet? >> i think just as historian i look for two things in these mueller stories, one does the logan act appear? and one is the fora act appear? when that appears it tells me they don't have anything. only because we'll only had two people prosecuted on the logan act. john kerry all of august and september met with the iranian foreign ambassador in paris and he admitted they were discussing the iran deal which is against the president and the administration. nobody called that a logan violation or at least seriously did. we have the swamp in washington, everybody is dealing with foreign agents, they're representative governments. christopher steele was a foreign british subject and he was supplying data to the hillary

clinton campaign for money. and he was seeding it throughout the government. nobody talked about the agents there. and then more importantly, in that document, there's worry that flynn was working in a way that was unethical with the turkish government or maybe with the russian government. but it had no effect because when donald trump came in, when you look at russian sanctions, the oil policy of the us, increasing production, arming ukraine, attacking russians in syria or whether it was ending the obama romance with turkey we were much tougher on turkey and much tougher on russia. and finally, i mean if you want to reduce everything, you get down to one point. all of these stories, the surveillance, the entire collusion comes back to the steele dossier. that was the source of the fisa warrants that was used in part at least to collate testimony with surveillance. we know now that although they

said it was a bought document no one ever told the fisa judges it was paid for by hillary clinton. nobody told them christopher steele the author of that had been let go as unreliable. nobody told the fisa court judges that the news reports were circular and based on the dossier itself. so that was kind of a poison tree. a lot of these people said things in numerous testimonies, not knowing that that would be collated with a surveillance. and then we get into the unmasking. so, finally, and this is finally, 25 people in the doj or fbi have been reassigned, chose to be retired or were fired in association with these entire mess. nobody is talking about it. i can't think of any time in us history where the two top intelligence agencies, the head of those agencies, jim clapper and john brennan, not only lied under oath, to a congressional

committee, admitted they lied under oath and had entire exemption. so i know it's not you tube all the time but that's really disturbing that we have this mueller track and then we have all of these violations it that, so when mueller starts or sanctimonious and logan act and fora act and government officials have to be above the law, well yeah. but that's not happening. so we're losing confidence. >> laura: it is kind of rich. >> it is. >> laura: it wasn't mueller himself but what preceded mueller to set up this entire investigation from the beginning. saul we've gone over this meticulously, the reference to his military service, his exemplary public record how common is that in a sentencing document such as this? taking that into account as a mitigating circumstance? it seems to kind of make sense. >> it's very common if you're the defense attorney sending the memo and it's common if you're

the government and that client has helped you. but i wanted to say one thing about flynn. there's nobody in town who really believes that flynn would have pled guilty unless mueller had something against one of his family members. there's. >> laura: threatened his family members. >> right. that's often done by prosecutor's. i don't know of anybody who thinks that flynn would have pled if that wasn't out there. we just don't know what that is. i do want to say in mueller's defense there is a mention of the logan act here but mueller does not say in any way that flynn violated it. >> laura: throwing that in there! but the other thing to keep in mind. >> laura: come on! is that mueller does say, he doesn't say what it is, but mueller does say that flynn provided important information about connections between the trump campaign and the russian government or attempts to make connections. all i'm saying is you're right he doesn't say that flynn did that but he does say that flynn provided information.

again if there's nothing there, that may be one reason mueller is not talking about it. or it may be that mueller is a professional and it's not appropriate to release that information. >> laura: there's a lot of redactions here. the left is going crazy, donnie jr., it's speculation, over drive the tonight on the other network. >> laura: the conclusions all in the redactions. >> no, let's declaration. >> laura: delusion collusion all in the redactions. jason we go to what victor davis hanson said. we have proven instances of blatant lying to cover up how this whole thing started in the first place. lying to federal judges. and i say it's lying. when you don't reveal who actually started this whole ball rolling on the dossier, that's a lie. i still think the fisa judges should be a lot more angry about how this all went down from the beginning. from that spawned this entire

investigation. from that filing and that surveillance spawned this entire thing. period. >> it was an absolute fabrication. they took -- they planted stories. remember a big part of this. >> laura: it's like a circular deal. write that and put it in fisa. >> plant "the story," present it to the courts. i do think the house judiciary and senate judiciary if lindsey graham is going to do his job bring up the fisa judges, have them explain how this process works. they wouldn't let us go to -- attend one of those meetings and they wouldn't let us talk to those judges. there was clearly lying, misinformation. i know the inspector general is still doing an investigation of that fisa -- >> laura: when is that going to come out in the. >> probably not until mid next year. it's going to take way too long. but the bottom line with mr. flynn he didn't have the financial means to fight this. >> laura: i would say. that saul you referenced that and jason picking up on. that he of doesn't have a lot of money.

i mean when a prosecutor says do you ever want to see your wife again? your son is, you have an of grandchild. he's never going to see your grandchild. he's going to go to jail for the next 30 years. don't worry r it's scary for most people. >> but he never -- he had competent the tent counsel he never would have gone to jail. if he had fought this and lost he never would have gone to jail for a significant period of time for offenses like this. >> laura: 1001 statements in an article he wrote for the hill on turkey. >> they didn't have anything. >> this guideline range of zero to six months he would have had that no matter what. that would have been his guideline range. what's going on here is there was something else. there was a threat that was made against somebody. >> laura: his son. >> here is something else though. you can believe two things at the same time. you can believe there was the seat of the fisa court and that should be investigated and people should be ron desantis if they have the found to have lied about that.

you can also believe that mueller should be allowed even if you don't think he should have been appointed that mueller should be allowed to continue his investigation and not be attacked every day by the president. you can actually believe those two things. >> laura: i don't think it's helpful to attack mueller every day. and i don't. i tend to look at what they produce. after 18 months. you got this guy in a vice grip for 18 months. this? i mean, unless those redactions are really like knock your socks off, maybe they will be. >> i don't think they are. >> laura: i don't either. i think this is a big zero! i think this mueller thing and what they did to flynn is disgusting. i want to talk to you about this d.j. h. what they did on the turkey issue which is getting almost no play tonight on the other networks. they actually cited, he said the foreign, the far ra act, what is it, the defendant made a second series of false statements to the doj concerning his contacts

with the republic of turkey specifically on march 7th, 2017, after he was no longer in the administration. the defendant made materially false statements in multiple documents that he filed pursuant to the far act pertaining to a project he and his company performed on for a principle of the republic of turning ri. apparently the false statement was well it was more directed by the government of turkey than you let on. he wrote a piece in the hill about that minister the president of turkey wanted back in turkey. that was in march. i find this to be -- this is it? you have the far ra? i think this is ridiculous, i'm sorry. >> i think what -- i don't believe that you should attack the special counsel but what mr. mueller is doing, he's criminalizing the status quo behavior in ush washington. that's what washington people do. what we have to ask ourself did it have any effect?

when trump came into office they reversed the so-called special relationship that obama had developed with turkey that gave us in part the muslim brotherhood in egypt, et cetera. trump was harder on the russians, he's harder on the turks. if you had said 18 months ago $30 million ago when we were told there was a new dream team, these it were the all stars, these were mueller's army, all this gushing about these wonderful eye have i league lawyers et cetera, if you had told them we were going to start with this bang and end up with a women per, they were going after jerome corsi of info wars and roger stone, i think the new york times would have we want and been humiliated. that's where we are now. 18 months later we're going after minor characters, that have also been infringe activities and they're supposedly going to drop the bombshell. every day we hear bombshell, bombshell, bombshell >> laura: tonight it was --

victor, tonight it was the president is shaken, rattled by the flynn memo! every time something drops. they have a camera in the white house and the president is rattled. i'm sure he doesn't like the fact of the investigation, who would? >> i don't think mr. mueller necessarily is culpable himself but whether ed know so or not, what we've seen now is we've seen the impeachment writs early in the administration, we saw the 25th amendment, we saw the logan act and now the mueller investigation, psychologically fills that same need because we don't have any information that the trump campaign or transition did anything different than ronald reagan did in 1980. >> laura: where is the collusion? saul is i think judicious and prudent in your analysis. we do not know what is in these redactions. we don't know, michael cohen has tape-recordings?

we don't know. this is like a slow roll. the question is when is this ultimately do you think going to wrap up? >> i think we're near the end. but keep in mind how you typically determine what a prosecutor's office has is you look at every plea deal. you look at the language of the deal and you look at the statement of the offense. that's where they say this is what the guy did. and in every single case, you have nothing to indicate that there is a major collusion/conspiracy case involving trump or his lieutenants, conspiring illegally with the russians or conspiring with anybody to hack computers. now, i'm just saying, all i can do is read the tea leaves. based upon what prosecutor's and defense attorneys always look at, if you look at the documents, there's not going to be anything major there. it's just the way it is. >> laura: so it's not what everyone thought. trump is working with, oh the

left -- trump is working with putin, they're all going to steal the election from hillary. that's what the average person was led to believe at the beginning of all of this. we'll see where we end up. thank you so much all of you. there are a lot of stories to cover tonight. one, the war against history? yes, next! . place, the xfinity xfi gateway.

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♪ . >> laura: pen miss of american history that's the focus of tonight's angle. back in august protesters at the university of north carolina chapel hill took it upon themselves to rip down a confederate statue. it was the silent sam statue honoring unc students who had fought for the confederacy in the civil war. the statue has been labeled a celebration of white supremacy by some and as a piece of history by others. yesterday the university board announced a plan to house the statue in a new $5 million history and education center on the edge of campus where it would be properly contextualized. even as they announced the plan chancellor carroll fult was clearly not entirely on board. >> i have a preference to move it off campus, but like everyone here, i swore to obey the law.

and sometimes you don't agree with laws. but i don't have the privilege of choosing which laws i agree with and which ones i do not. >> laura: how brave! well a 2015 north carolina law forbids agencies from permanently removing and reloca relocating state owned memorials or statues. and north carolina likely passed the law to protect against what it saw happening across the country. what's been happening? well nationally since 2015 more than 100 confederate machine u meant and statues have been removed. students, protestors and faculty members at unc want the same fate to dee ball silent sam. the north carolina be damned, forget about it. they took to the campus monday night to protest the plan to house the statue in a new building. crowd chanting.

>> unc is not concerned about per serving history. the board of trustees -- >> i am disappointed to be associated with an institution that continuously speaks and employer identifies the white supremacy. that is exactly what the board of trustees are doing right now. >> laura: it's funny how they're reading it off their phone. who needs paper? but that history were so that cut and dried. there's a movement particularly among the young to hate the past and eradicate anything they find objectionable or troubling. and look every country, all history has its bad sides, it has its good stuff, good stuff, booed stuff. this is a dee instruct stiff

mindset of isis. isis pill languaged and wiped away irreplaceable historical and religious monuments. palmyra in syria, simply because second. now no matter what one thinks of the way this was all treated after the civil war, whether they should have built these monuments or not, this happened. okay? the confederacy happened. we owe it to the future to leave history as it existed undisturbed. continue to debate it. have conversations about it. but why in the allow future generations the opportunity to mark this history, process it, and come to the wrong conclusion? put up another statue commemorating the slaves what were abused and killed adjacent to silent sam. but to destroy the instead of engage? to defy the law instead of respect it is no way to honor the past or the future or to

highlight all the gains america has made. now by committing acts of violence to get your own way and defying laws to remove figures that you find offensive, you start to look a little bit like the thing you're protesting. should you succeed by the way, in the future, some other mob might well tear down your statue because they themselves find what you did offensive. so where does it all end? and you would have taught them what it's fine it destroy all trace of whatever we find objectionable in the past? now let's hope the board of unc, north carolina's historical commission has less destructive tendencies. we can hope. and that's the angle. joining me now two students from the university of north carolina chapel hill magdalena is supportive of the silent sam statue on campus and elena a

group adamantly opposed to the statue's presence anywhere on campus. elena it seems that the first step for critics of these statues was to move them out of the public area and into historical buildings. okay. so that happened. or that was happening. but now that is offensive. so where does this ever end? what do you propose be done with the statue? you can't have it in the public, out in the public where it always has been. can't move it to the building. so what now? >> i think with silent sam down it is time to start contextual liesing the past of the monument. when you look at when this monument was erected it was 1913 and the dedication speeches espoused white supremacy and personally i'm a proud southerner and i had ancestors fighting on both sides of the war. i value the lessons to be

learned from the civil war. i see this monument as destructive and a symbol of a different era entirely and not any actions of unc students who served during that time but as when it was dedicated in 1913, that era, white supremacy. and so while there's no clear-cut solution i do think, and state law is very restrictive, i think it go deserves a place off campus where it can be placed within the proper context of which it was erected. >> laura: let's go to you magdalena on this, what should lap to this statue? there is a state law passed unanimously i believe in the state, one chamber of the state house, and ultimately signed into law that exists. you can't just, you know, remove things never to be seen again. these are state owned. memorials. it says monument, memorial, work of art owned by the state may not be removed without the

approval of the north carolina historical commission. they wanted to basically stop these things from disappearing in the middle of the night as we saw in places like in new orleans where statues have been removed never to be seen again. so magdalena what happens it next? >> next of course i feel that if students are going to protest on the north side of campus they're absolutely going to continue to process the south side of campus. i feel that only placing the monument on the south side of campus allows unc to allow the problem going on, on campus, liberal students feeling they can run the university and try to overthrow the opinions of the majority, and only allow the public to see the vocal minority that's taking place. chair woman of unc republicans i said before i do not condone any

sort of mob rule or anarchist actions on campus. for these students to feel it was okay to take the statue down in august that's absolutely not okay. chancellor fult let them get away with it, unc police, chapel hill police and the lack of consequences from events in durham also made students think second get away with something like this. >> laura: elena when you look at these images, this is like mob rule. i mean you rip something down, say i'm offended by it, and we're all supposed to throw you a parade. i mean welcome to the world. again i'm kind of tired of the snowflake line all the college students are snowflakes but the real world the filled with complicated very difficult dilemmas for everyone. >> i agree. >> laura: you might not like the lyrics to a song you hear on the radio. it doesn't owe oh maybe you like the tune but you don't like the lyrics, well i guess you could

say well it offends me. that should be banned because it object at this identifies women as just a piece of you know sexual gratification or something. pretty much everybody is offended by something. you know what i'm offended by? i'm offended by students who refuse to see that the progress that has been made in the united states of america and seem to want to find some type of i don't know if it's belonging or relevance in a world where moral relativism reigns supreme. but it's kind of like a social gathering almost, what can we tear down today or how can we get on you tube. i'm glad you're on with us tonight to try to explain it. most people in the real world are, kids, don't try this at home. because if you try this at home you will be put in jail. >> i think we see in the civil rights era i think people would have said similar things about people protesting then. civil disoh bead ens and

peaceful pro tests -- >> laura: does that look peaceful what happened to you last night? last night. >> laura: really, that's peaceful. that's not rosa parks, sweet at this. >> that's not peaceful. >> i would like to emphasize there were two arrests and they were non-violent. i think with any group that large there will be people who act in ways that may cause them to get arrested. what we saw last night there was no violence. i think that it was just students voicing their opinion. i would like it bring up our democrat cli elected student body president voted no to this proposal. i don't agree that this isn't what students want. clearly the we see by the numbers gathering, by the student body president by the 5000 letters and emails written to chancellor fult i think they're all pretty clear students don't want silent sam. >> absolutely not. this action does not encompass what the student body needs to

be. unc was founded on light and liberty. neither one of these situations encompass that. neither one of that. this statue belongs where it was. >> laura: i think more debate, don't remove historical markers, talk more about them. thank you for being on. something interesting happening, 2020 race.

♪ ♪ >> who do you want to see run? >> we have -- we'll have 30 or 40 probably great candidates running for president. that's a lot. 40, really? 40 candidates? >> yeah there's a lot of us senators, go governors, people outside of politics. i think we're going to have a big field. >> laura: you thought the gop field was big in 2016. 30 or 40 people! wow! just look at these recent developments. democrats continue to embrace beto mania, be old joe wine wine is reemerging to say hey wait an apple track minute here, okay?

i think i'm the most qualified person in america to be president, he said. there's a new twist to all of this will tonight. just hours ago it was reported that beto o'rourke secretly met with president obama who is said to be very excited about his potential candidacy. how bruising will a beto biden primary be? here to debate corey lewandowsky and juan williams. juan, obama's old staff seems to be, you know, prepping on instant kind of plug and play for the beto presidential campaign. your thoughts? >> well not quite. i the reason ram emanuel the mayor of chicago has said you have to win something. he thinks the fact beto o'rourke didn't win versus ted cruz means he shouldn't be a contender. you have to prove he could be a

contender. i see lots of obama people saying, to your point, obama people saying we the haven't seen excitement, this kind of charisma, this kind of young people attracted to a candidate since 20088 and that's barack obama. and by the way n. iowa they've just done a survey. it came back that most of iowa democrats say they would like to see a young energetic new face on the scene. and i don't think there's anyone who fits that gilbert than o'rourke. >> laura: but of course there's old vice-president corey. joe biden clearly isn't feeling the love here. he is pretty experienced. he was vice-president for eight years! and robert francis does the shirt sleeve thing kind of like obama used to do. jump on stage in the shirt sleeves, young and energetic and loved by, you know, loved by a lot of democrats. i've never seen anything like this. someone who has never won a big

position, looks like the mojo and the energy is moving to him. never seen anything like it. >> well this reminds me of robert de niro raging bull where he says i could have been a contender, i could have won something. next thing it will be two failed candidates, two losers who are going to run when we have a quote specioused candidate like joe biden. that means old to the average person. experienced means old. the front runners are both in their mid 70s and then elisabeth waur en and cam million la hairs who can't get out of their own way, who want to run to the far left. the democrats are going to nominate a liberal progressive who donald trump is going to walk all over. >> laura: juan there was another guy who ran and won and hadn't won run and won anything. he never won a political office and he won the presidency.

>> also, hey corey, i mean donald trump is up in his 70s. joe biden is highly experienced. i think when joe biden says he's the most qualified it reminds me george h.w. bush very qualified, lots of experience. you have can't argue with joe biden's many years in the senate and head of the judiciary committee. >> laura: they don't want biden. >> he's the number one candidate. >> laura: we have it, the harvard harris poll, biden 25, bernie sanders, hillary clinton, beto o'rourke, i don't think any of that means anything right now. i'm telling you, although obama has met with bernie sanders, elisabeth warren, and mitch landers, speaking of people who like to pull down statues in the middle of the night, mitch lab drew. obama folks and the former president himself are kind of running out of patience for trump. come on. >> of course they are.

>> laura: let me show you how it's done. beto is kind of the, as he's described by the new york times as the white obama. they're describing him that way. >> look, obama has seen all of his signature policies reversed under this president. he's seen the economy ex explode. he's seen the magician that he claims didn't exist which is donald trump bring jobs back to this country. he's seen this president renegotiate bad trade deals. he wants anybody that can challenge him. in the 2016 election we had the adult debate and children's debate. now with 30 candidates we'll have the geriatrics, losers and everybody else. it's amazing. 30 people? you've got to be kidding me. >> laura: guys i want to get your thoughts, tonight we're mourning the passing of a presidential campaign that never got off the ground. michael avenatti announcing on twitter that he will not run in

2020. could we possibly get the porn star attorney to change his mind and give joe and beto and kamala a run for their money? juan? >> i think only if we want to tickle you and corey, because you guys would have a field day talking about him! and stormy daniels and all that. i think stormy remains on the scene as kryptonite to trump. i think you guys as political people would think how ridiculous. i must say he does reveal an instincts on the democrat part. they want someone who would go toe to toe, slugging it out with the heavyweight champ trump, right? avenatti says that's what he'll do. these other people he says they're wimps they're going to get run over by the big heavyweight donald trump. but i think you will find the democrats have a big appetite for someone who is a fighter. to me avenatti has too many deficits, too many flaws going in. he's too much of a target for

you guys. >> laura: he talks about you need a fighter in 2020. we get that. you also need someone who comes with some level, i think, of graph have i at that time and experien experiencegrap experiencegraphy. and experience. i certainly hope the economy is going to be doing well in two years. you're going to be going up someone who has been through the meat grinder the previous six years. i don't care if you're young, energetic, good looking from texas with a cool name that doesn't mean you have the political talent of barack obama. he had enormous political talent, barack obama did. we'll see whether beto does. corey? >> i don't think anybody whose name is creep i porn lawyer had a tree chance of being the democrat nominee. picked be wrong. especially a guy who has been thrown out for not paying his bills with all these liens against him. i think creep i porn lawyer had no chance any way.

>> laura: we have long warned about the dangers facing the caravan at our southern border both during the trek and when they arrived. two shocking developments have proved us right. the report is disturbing, and the video, next. this isn't just any moving day.

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>> we've got a challenging and still potentially volatile situation in tijuana. we have over 7000 migrants. they were brought to a border by a group that told them they could cross the border into the us. you have seen the scenes of people literally dropping children over the fence. >> laura: this is a video that the customs and border protections commissioner was just mentioning. to the people throwing their children over an 18 foot border fence seem like concerned parents, model parents? some of those kids not surprisingly were seriously injured. all the while migrants at the border are demanding faster processing into the united states. so many can, what, disappear into the main planned. here to debate this tom homan and fox news contributor gunther sanchez. tom critics felt caravan are told we are inhuman for warning

of these dire conditions. but to see the numbers of people that are now reported missing, from the original caravan, either dead or missing. their family the doesn't know where they are and they're actually not at the border crossing. not to be accounted for. >> for the last year and-a-half i've said over and over again illegal immigration is not a victimless crime. they hire a criminal organization to something you them to the united states and across the border. these are bad people. president trump did the right thing, putting them into a point of entry, where they're guarded by federal agents 24/7 but because the aclu sued trump and this judge in the 9th circuit he put them back in the hands of the something you letters you saw the video of a something you ler dropping the children over the wall. more women to be raped, more people die. rather than being in a port of entry they're going to cross

illegally with the help of criminal organizations. >> laura: other ngo's promised these migrants they were going to get into the country. i don't think they believed trump when he said you're not getting in the way you want to. we're going to process you. they were sold a bill of goods here. >> i see a problem here. telling everybody to just go to the port of entry and not having enough people at the port of entry, it's creating a problem for a problem. i'm in the saying that everybody should just jump the wall. okay? but if you're going to tell people that is the entrance have people prepared to receive all those people trying to look for a soil lump. >> 91% of them have fraudulent claims for a soil lump. 91%. that's the government's estimate given the past experience and the surge of asylum claims over the past six years. they've skyrocketed. >> i don't think fraudulent is the word. people don't qualify. there's no evidence of fraud, there's evidence they don't

qualify. >> pueblo sin fronteras, if i were at the justice department i would open up an investigation into that one group, pueblo sin fronteras which are sending representatives down there, go in a very cute and veiled way this is how you apply for a soil lump. i want to work in the united states. okay. you have to have credible fear. it's a scam. >> that interview is actually pretty tough. it takes a couple hours, i've seen the pages, i've seen the people come with interviews to my office and i see 20 the pages of questioning. it's not saying i want to apply for a soil lump and you're in. >> laura: people want to come and work or join family members. they want to be in the united states for a variety of reasons. but a very small percentage ends up being -- >> 89% of them will pass the first credible fear interview but 90% lose in front of the immigration judge. it is easy to pass, you have to

know what to say for that first interview. we have criminal vest gagsz. american attorneys have been down there teaching them and telling them what to say. that's just facts. >> no, i'm sorry. the attorneys are not teaching them what to say. these are people running from fear. they are running from a country where they're being killed. their wives and children are being persecuted and killed. they're not telling, to you they're telling the same story. >> laura: i saw a lot of them interviewed. they didn't say anything about people being killed. they said i want to work in the united states. there's interesting freelance reporters you tube kids interviewing, i think we're on your side on this. people saying in spanish because obviously they don't speak english, they're like i have friends here. i'm in a threat. that's what they say. i believe most of them are not a criminal threat. but they've made the criminal organizations richer. and they've hurt the people of tijuana in this process who are by the way i want to play this

one tijuana official, let's watch. >> when they first got here there were like 360 migrants coming here. but things got out of hand, it kept growing and growing. this is a federal issue note a municipal issue. we're carrying the financial load of keeping these people with medicine, food, shelter, blankets, whatever. >> laura: tom real quick. we have ten seconds here. >> mexico should have done more on their southern border. you're not telling me they could not have stopped this caravan if they wanted to and tried. >> laura: gunther, thank you, we'll have you back, we'll be right back. stay right there. the only fda-approved 3-in-1 copd treatment. ♪ trelegy. the power of 1-2-3 ♪ trelegy 1-2-3 trelegy with trelegy and the power of 1-2-3, i'm breathing better.

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♪ ♪ . >> laura: something lost in a lot of the breaking news coverage of today, and >> something lost a lot of the breaking news coverage of today and everything in the last week or donald trump's visit with george w. bush and his wife

laura to console them about hw after death even among heated political debates, it was a lovely movement and mrs. bush saw the christmas decorations and spec in the white house where she spent eight years and i love moment. we need to have more of them. shannon bream and the fox news at night team with the latest developments. shannon: i agree on that sentiment, thank you very much, breaking news, donald trump's national security adviser michael flynn. what is behind the heavily redacted sections of the special counsel's filings on families whose cooperation so helpful that mueller says he shouldn't get any jail time at always both sides claiming victory but what does it mean for the president? katherine herridge is here live to donald trump's and start just critic