jon: that is how fox reports this saturday december 22nd thank you for joining us life liberty and the van is up next. >> hello america i am mark livefe in it is great to have my friend walter williams on with me. i said i want walter. those that know you, all three people you are distinguished professor of economics from george mason they know you as a syndicated columnist and author of numerous books and

essays. is that right? of course you write for townhall with hundreds of newspapers across america. so let's start with fundamentals andho the basics how do you definee liberty? to make people being able to engage peaceable voluntary exchange without interference byng others. and that is not the normal state of affairs and throughout maine - - mankind's history subject to abuse and controlled by others. so the amount of liberties that americans have and europe as well and the danger that we

face is that a historian 200 years from now will say the normal state of affairs is arbitrary abuse and controlled by others and there is a curiosity were relatively few people with a large amount of liberty for a short amount ofme time i'll go back to the normal state of affairs. mark: do you think liberty has a paradox because people who don't support liberty instead of using it they use that to destroy liberty if you look at totalitarians around the world

that because they need free speech to get their foot in the door. but after the foot is in the door than they want to eliminate free speech but with the seat of the free speech movement so again, we are losing our liberty. if you ask a question, which way are we moving? tiny steps at w a time with more personal liberty or control over our lives? it is unambiguously the latter. >> when i was 20 years old my father and i visited the center my father was very

close to ronald reagan one of the things he said to me that stuck with me everyday congress debates we lose a little bit of our liberty. the american people largely do not like politicians they do not like congress and all the polls come through with very low. but it seems health care or housing or gun laws or what have you they immediately say government should do something they don't trust the bureaucracy or washington or congress that government should do something so how do you explain that paradox? >> there is the temptation of all humans to want to live at the expense of somebody else. the american s people, it's sad to say but the american people love to live at the expense of somebody else whether the farm

subsidies, or business bailouts. in case of a farmer if a farmer is having trouble and says give me your money he will go to jail but if he goes to washington can write a law enabling the irs to take my money he doesn't go to jail. so people like to use government to do things that if they did the same thing it's illegal. so people like to use the government to legalize theft. >> what is interesting is in other words using government the power of government to take something to give it to somebody else or to take something from a generation that's not yetet born with those unfunded liabilities $21 trillion operating debt

trillion dollar deficit this year they just voted on the most massive budgets in american history and the president signed it. three or two generations from now those kids have to deal with this. even when it comes to their own children and grandchildren do you think they delude themselves into thinking it is the ambiguous future generation? >> i think here is the problem. the big collapse will come in 2030 or 2040 and any congressman who will take steps now to prevent the big collapse the major big problem is social security and medicare. talk about doing something aboutse social security are run

out of office and those who vote in large numbers so we have to ask a question is it reasonable for us to expect a politician h to do what he considers to be political suicide? >> it is unreasonable so politicians with his time horizons are two years. it's two t years. and that's what we have to live with. >> that is a circular problem because with the politicians the fact they grab more power from the private sector but yet they don't have the ability because of their own lack of will to do what needs to be done 30 or 40 years out. >> that's right.

>> what happens to aur country? >> what can we do? as human beings are we any different from the spanish? the french? the british? great empires have passed have went down the tubes. i say maybe we are not that different and we will share the same future as those other greatt empires. keep in mind we have betrayed the founding fathers of our country. look at federalist paper 45 james madison was writing and trying to convince the citizens of new york and they were afraid to ratify the constitution and he said the powers that we delegated to the federal government are few and well-defined and

restricted mostly to external affairs if you turn it upside down w as we have now the powers of the federal government are numerous. >> would you agree inte many respects the post constitutional. it is in a federal republic is not really representative republic with 2 million of the civil servants bureaucrats is not even a constitutional republic when fiveid individuals can decide it is fundamental or to nationalize an issue there is no recourse so what kind of a government is this right now i'm not saying we are a totalitarian nation yet but which way are we headed?

we are giving more control of our lives and the tragic thing about this is the american people have contempt for the united states constitution because any politician who decides to uphold and defend the constitution would not be elected to office by the americanpele people. if he says, look, nowhere is the authority for the federal government if you send me to washington i will not bring back billions of dollars because it's against the constitution you will be run out of town. >> do you think progressivism the anti- constitutional

ideology, do you think they have succeeded? >> the jeffersonian's they have not succeeded. the will sony and objectives is hard set in the economy but if you look at the economy by marx and engels and the things that they wanted we accomplish that in our country. >> so there are people out there from the tea party movement or the reagan revolution constitutional conservatives and i talk to them every day on the radio show, they say what can we do about this?

initially i was strongly opposed to article five but i studied it and the history behind it and george mason proposed it two days before the constitutional convention madison supported it and then there was a nullification of her taking place. and this is a movement that's in the constitution which mason said would be oppressive through the state legislatures to control the government so basically that process is the state legislatures get together theyg. sent delegates withp their ideas and they go to the same ratification

process which is very difficult 38 states have to ratify. i've concluded the supreme court is constantly rewriting the constitution presidents are rewriting the constitutionn or ignoring it what if we put it back in a box? if there is a way to do that. >> i worry about that because if you have a constitutional convention. >> a convention estates, who were the people that will be there? it will not be benjamin franklin orr george mason but people like nancy pelosi. >> but she will be there from kansas. the problem now is we don't have those men or women on the supreme court so those who

decided that constitutional convention i would encourage people to look at this but to get it done. >> you can watch me on tv on levintv we would love to see you there. introducing add on advantage,

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mark: walter williams bernie sanders is out there promoting socialism they don't call it that but that's what it is they are pushing some form of s socialism to accomplish free healthcare they talk aboutt scandinavia does socialism create anea opportunity? >> we might start off with what is socialism? socialism or communism is

government ownership and or control through means of production. and in that sense we have that already in our country and then we are asking for more of y it but in which countries are people better off maybe a higher per capita income or countries on the free-market end of the spectrum or countries on the socialist end of the spectrum you will see those toward the free-market arerk better but those according to amnesty international find great protections on that

economic spectrum poverty and abuse of human rights violations you find those in socialist and communist countries all over the world to everybody asking for socialism in ourll country they're really asking for us to be less free with a large amount of socialism we are not nearly asre free as individuals as we used to be. the founding fathers of the country went to war with the most powerful nation on the face of the earth because they didn't want to work for two weeks for king george we are working four months out of the year to pay our taxes. mark: so the problem here is branding or lack of articulate

conservatives of the political leaders of the republican party?, rarely do you hear them talk about principles or liberty or individualism they talk about millennial's but they are in many respects antiauthority. when i hear republican leaders talk about the gs 13 or department of education the left is out there pushing ideology and i would like your opinion on this i think they stress populism but at the end it's all about centralization. but the so-called conservatives don't even count this. >> you are absolutely right. and the real job that we have is to somehow sell the fellow americans on the model of civil - - if you're you're

ready we should convince our fellow mower - - americans because the main ingredient the average american hides the kindhi of tyranny from himself for example let's say there is a lady down the street she cannot mow her lawn, she doesn't have enough money to pay somebody so the average you support the government forcing someone to mow her lawn each week? they would say no we would not do that would you support somebody to pull money out of his wallet to give her money? they say no. but what if we put the money into the government pot and thenis that government sends it then that's okay. but all these three examples

involve the forcible use of one person to serve somebodyom else. that is not what people want to many of us want that forcing one person to serve somebody else by the way that's a good working definition of slavery. >> when you bring up the founders of this country, the left immediately talks about the slaves and the wanted to get rid of it but they couldn't nobody talks about this great 1858 speechte of douglas. i want to know your opinion of this.. he said these are the men that wrote the declaration of independence is not a word about slavery or race looking

to children and their grandchildren to what this republic could not resolve how do you answer that? >> first of all we need to n recognize that slavery has a normal state of affairs for centuries in fact the word slave comes from the slobs who were the first slaves that turns that f africans were the last people to be enslaved and it also turns out that the western world most notably great britain and france and the united states paid a huge cost whereby in other parts of the world slavery still exist today in the middle east. but the west made a great effort to get rid of slavery. we have many quotations of the founders that they looked at slavery as the abomination.

but we could not have been a nation or the ratification of thetu constitution without allowing the south to maintain slavery. mark: that is an excellent point if there was no union then there was no civil war serving the primary purposes was over 700,000 casualties but i also find it interesting that it is a dark margin that many of the people who raise it of those debts resulting from marxism and then to push and progeny in my viewew is progressivism, is it not part and parcel? >> so to account for the

greatest destruction of human life, it does not compare to stalin in numbers. >> again, looking at the third reich, communism, stalin , these are all ideologies with the whole point of the constitutional system so that the people are as free as could possibly be. mark: when we return i went to ask walter about the debate going on today with the bill of rights. but you can believe this, real esurance employee nancy abraham. look her up online.

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mark. >> life of america's news headquarters the partial government shutdown remains in effect after the said majority does not reach a deal it is the request for border security and the wall. the white house wants congress to move five.$7 billion but democrats say they will not budge vice president mike pence met with lawmakers on both sides earlier today and action is not expected to take until the next full session on

thursday federal employees are being impacted by the shutdown. meeting with republicans and staff to discuss border security all in attendance they are on the same page they are urging him not to back down. i am jon scott now back to "life, liberty & levin". mark: walter williams we have this debate going on and i'm watching the news with great trepidation. were not getting facts or information t and then to debate about the second amendment but really this debate and i'm curious about your thoughts is over the first amendment.

but they also want to debate control those people who say wait maybe there should be police and the schools you want to outlaw weapons. whatever but to debate the universities and i am noticing the more groupthink that is promoted what do you think about that quick. >> i think americans need to be educated why the founders of the nation gave us the second amendment in the firstdm place. they gave us the second amendment not to do duckhunting or deer hunting and protect hazards they explicitly said they want us to have arms to protect ourselves against abusive government. mark: that is true and factual

but yet it is crazy if you listen to the media. >> that is absolutely right. but another question about gun control and reducing the crime keep in mind guns are in adamant objects it could be there for a century it will not do anything that people that are arguing for gun control as a way to reduce the slaughtering that we see in the united states 30 people are killed each day by drunk drivers in our country so do you want to have car control? it turns out rifles and shotguns are used to kill 560

people each year according to fbi statistics but knives are responsible 1500 per year so do you want knife control? you can use the same reasoning they use with guns. you have background checks. what we fail to realize is what has happened to our society. and keep in mind it is more difficult to get a gun or a rifle than it has ever been in our country. look at the sears roebuck catalog 19 oh eight theres are 35 pages of sales of guns you send the money they send you a gun. you walk to the hardware store

or for a long time a birthday presentol for a 12 or 14 -year-old from his father was a 22 rifle. guns had - - schools had gun shooting clubs. what has happened with guns between 1920 what are they doing differently? they are doing anything differently what has happened to people since the 19 twenties? there has been a decline of morality. this is what you are finding happening and then to say we want gun control that is just plain nonsense. >> but yet it is being pushed and, monopolized ic guests who

come on with a different point of view and cnn had an event the other night with marco rubioy and those were shouted down because they were not for gun control and the host use to work for the handgun control organizations that we are never told but climate change, abortion, gun control , it seems we are always debating the grounds and the terms set by the left. why is that quick. >> i think the left is very effective at selling their views to the american people but the right is not as good at messaging as the left the left appears to be so caring and the right appears not to

be so we have to sell that moral superiority and morality in general. >> are there enough of us left who are willing to do it? it doesn't feel like that way in congress. >> it doesn't feel that way on college campuses either. mark: ladies and gentlemen don't forget on the weekdays watchat levintv cr tv.com we would love to see you. if you have moderate to severe

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you can get anything fromyw everywhere, all over the world, not just the united states, meat, poultry, fish , if you have certain types of allergies there is a section for that the hippie section over here wines from all over the country all over the world. ten different types of bread. five different types of hotdog buns and different types of hotdogs. that is available to any person in the united states nobody on the face of the planet has lived like we live kings or queens or emperors if we want to travel across the country we get annoyed if our plane is to lie on - - delayed for an hour or two we complain about tight spaces high from the east coast to the west coast in five hours never

before in human history but yet capitalism, individualism, libey they get a bum rap if i wake up at two in the morning to go to 711 to buy anything that i need if you need a drug because of an illness you get at the same day or the next day. how can you explain that we live in the lap of luxury created by us and our ancestors. >> that's right. mark: it goes unnoticed. >> even for people in our country today have more than the kings of yesteryear they have air conditioning or a microwave oven, tv, and all of the riches is at the fruit of

capitalism and human ingenuity. i will say how come george washington did not have a cell phone? he could have benefited immensely from having a cell phone to stay in contact with his troops. all the material to make a cell phone was around at the time of george washington also the time of the caveman but what is different why do we have cell phones today and george washington didn't? it has to do with the human brain and free to explore. that is why we enjoy the riches that are unprecedented in human history the human brain is allowed to be free to do those things.

and lying at the root of it is people's desire to have more of something in a free market system the way you have more of something that why is bill gates so rich? he did not take your money. he didn't rob you. he found a way to please you and please millions of people and they voluntarily put down $400 for his windows or look at ford made the model t. he did something to please his fellow man to buy a cheaper car. that is the root of our richness of the human mind and for us to have more for ourselves and in the free market system the way to do

that is by pleasing your fellow man prior to capitalism the way people becamepl rich was through plundering and enslaving their fellow man but the free market made it possible for people to amass huge amounts of wealth by pleasing fellow man. >> and socialist economy to destroy thede entire market. >> that's right. absolutely. socialism and communism are about redistribution it isn't about creating wealth. >> you take from some people giving to others. mark: when we come back, what do the founders and framers does that mean what it means today? can you have a free people if

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. mark: mark: equality. we hear it all the time wage

equality, income inequality , and it is spoken as if the government should step in to maken sure people are on the same playing field. is that what thehe frame one - - the framers meant quick. >> i don't think so. is professed by my late colleague was a famous economist milton friedman said those people who put equality before liberty are not likely to have much of either if they put liberty before equality are likely to have a large measure of both. so when people talk about inequality of income in a free society the reason why there is inequality is because one person satisfies his fellow man then another there are

other issues of inequality as government like new york city at one time to get one taxi you had to buy a medallion that cost $100,000 so that stop the people to get into the taxicab business and these owners will pay politicians through political contributions to keep that restriction. so what we need todo do is make sure a level playing field that each person has a right to pursue his own objectives without interferencee by others. mark: is in that part of the constitution that says government, this is what you are involved in. the founders said equality

meeting we want to be treated the same way as everybody else we don't want to be targeted by the crown or mistreated so you be treated the same race religion height or weight the best we can do in a perfect world you cannot possibly have equality with individual human beings with the relatively free society? some people may work harder than others or smarter than others. but again we are bogged down in this debate with the anti- capitalist argument. >> the only type of equality that is consistent is any equality before the law any other is inconsistent. >> look at the harshest of

these police states coming out of society they still are not equal. >> they are equally oppressed. >> they are very poor and starving to death. we will be right back. what does help for heart failure look like? it looks like this.

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mark: doctor williams, what do you see is the fate of the united states? >> well, i am hoping that we can recover our instinct for personal liberty which requires limited government. it does not look very, very optimistic right now but unless we grab the reins of personal

liberty we will be like the other great empires of the past. back in 1887 someone said during queen victoria's jubilee that britain would become the third great nation and almost defeated on the high seas by six great nation, you would have been put into the insane asylum. mark: argentina. >> that's absolutely right. i am hoping that doesn't our future as a nation but we have to get busy now for going to save ourselves from the fate of other great empires in the past we need to get busy now with selling our fellow americans on the moral superiority of personal liberty and the main ingredient, limited government. mark: and we need to make the case for fellow citizens, right? not enough people make the case. >> that's right. mark: for americanism. that's the bottom line. >> that's right six it's been an

absolute pleasure to have you on and to educate me in the rest of the country. pleasure. [♪] jesse: welcome to. "watters' world." i'm jesse watters. major news coming out of washington besides the shutdown. mattis is out. james mattis giving his resignation as defense secretary after president trump announced plans to pull out all u.s. troops from syria and withdraw 7,000 troops from afghanistan in the coming months. the president with a major victory with criminal justice reform with overwhelming support from both chambers proving republicans