jon: of rare fish weighing in at more than 600 pounds. the bluefin called a threatened species. japan and others have agreed to new limits. that's her fox report for saturday january 5. i'm jon scott. thanks for watching. "life, liberty and levin" starts right now. ♪ -- ♪ ♪ >> he la lamere time mark levin and this is "life, liberty and levin" with wonderful guests after michael pillsbury. how are you sir? >> it's a pleasure. he wrote an amazing look, the 100 year marathon. it has incredible relevance. china seekers trying to replace america as the global superpower. this book is taken off in asia. the chinese have the book although they keep it under glass.

you are a senior fellow director of chinese strategy for hudson institute of distinguished high-ranking government official. you've written many books and reports on china. you are educated at stanford with a va in history columbia university m.a., ph.d.. during the reagan administration he was the assistant undersecretary of defense for policy planning and responsible for implementation of the program of covert aid known as the reagan doctrine but you work for nixon. george h.w. bush, reagan, somewhat obama. anyone that i missed? >> that covers it. >> you have spent your entire professional career focused on china and i want to read you just a couple of sentences and i wanted to elaborate on this for me. china's marathon strategy depends heavily on goodwill from

other countries especially the united states. that goodwill translates into massive investment, the acceptance of chinese exports, indulgences when the government or state affiliated organizations are caught stealing technology, or violating wto rules and looking the other way and human rights abuses. western countries offer such concessions primarily because their leaders are convinced that overall china is moving in the right direction. productive international cooperation and political liberalization. what do you mean by all that? >> china enjoys enormous goodwill inside of our government and inside governments around the world. therefore terry hard to earn that goodwill because frankly it pays off for them. if they had not had our market for their exports over the last 40 years, had they not had our

direct investment and our scientific exchange program with the help of our companies they wouldn't be the great power that they are today. they are number two in the world per by some statistics they are already number one in the overall size of their economy they realized it was not through hostility or demonizing other countries. it was by going inside the governments of these countries to extract what you might call the way to become the number one power in the world and they have succeeded in doing that. there's pushback recently but i would say their strategy has worked brilliantly for the last 40 years. mark: inside the far government?

>> they have gotten inside of our businesses. they have gotten into our tech knowledge e.. >> americans have dreams about our system inspiring other countries sitting on the hill and things like that. the chinese play to that. they were quite an extreme communist nation but in their ancient thinking they know you get to resources the country needs to pander its will the values in the bushel thinking of other countries. they survived what they called the warring states. mad. they held that the vision to american leaders. if you help us someday we are going to be just like you and it worked. i remember in 1979 he were huge white cowboy hat and he went to a rodeo. he was a fellow texan.

i drove senator ted cruz that he was pandering to the instincts of texans. this was a good old boy who comes to a rodeo and wears a white hat. take that times 100. i hate to use the word insinuate that they have gotten into her countries pretty much the same way. we have a market of 600 million in the bourgeois middle class. you can market your products to that class but you are going to have to have some sharing attitudes toward your technology mark: let's jump into that. it's wishful thinking, somewhat naïve. >> i would prefer optimistic, inspired by the founding fathers that surely china wants democracy and a free market. now 40 years later we know that's not true.

they have less democracy than they did in the 80s. the free market clearly has stopped at 50% total of their economy. our wishful thinking was wrong but now it's pretty hard to undo all that. you have a whole generation trained in washington d.c. to think of china at least a friend or partner is not an ally and what the book is about is her secret cooperation with china through the cia and the pentagon , a lot of things we did together during the cold war that in many ways taught our intelligence community and our military not to see china as an enemy and they have exploited that wishful thinking as well even as they do things that only an enemy would do. they keep denying it and we keep believing them. this is a dilemma president

trump faces today. mark: let's break this down. technology whether economic or military. how are they pilfering our technology? >> they began with the statement 40 years ago that the key source of economic growth is science and technology so they zeroed in on scientific knowledge he is the single most important national security goal they could have. once you do that and you ask your own chinese scientists, tell me the future the scientists can come back and say their something called nanotechnology manufacturing that no one had ever heard of at the time or artificial intelligence. any one of a range of almost 100 high-tech processes. the next step is which companies in america have those processes? then they would go through the front door and try to get some

of it but they couldn't get through the front door and they would steal from the backdoor. frankly one of the first things they did to wake up jimmy carter at 3:00 in the morning his science adviser was in beijing and the chinese made clear we want an agreement that all of our students who want to go to america science can go on the national science foundation will share all america's discoveries quickly with china. he was so moved by this that he called jimmy carter from beijing , can i agree to this and carter said yes and that became the foundation for our own government sharing a great deal of science and technology with china. it's the scale of what they have tried to do that is important. it's not just nickel and dime grab a little here. it's a comprehensive approach that to become number one in the world you've got to get ahold of what they call the innovation

technology based, find out the most dramatic profit-making technologies in the world and get it by one means or another. as they say we mostly help them come our government did through the front door in our companies did as well under the illusion that someday the chinese market would open up and these companies would enjoy massive profits. only a few companies have succeeded in most have not. mark: what happens to these companies to go to china like apple and they are forced to give up significant proprietary information are they not? >> barer variety of techniques. sometimes they will insist on a joint venture with a chinese partner and demand technology transfer take place. sometimes they focus on an individual who has the trade secrets of the company and they will sometimes recruit him not necessarily as an asset but someone who they offer a salary

of $2 million. in this case i'm thinking of general motors. you lead your company to work for us and show us how to make cars. they are now the number one seller of automobiles in the world. jeep or volkswagen at the time had a stealthy approach to all of this and if asked her you trying to get ahold of the world's best technology to become the world's number one power they would laugh and say of warsaw. china has no such ambitions. what a silly thing. mark: they think we are dupes. i think they praise their own strategy. i think -- . >> aarp presidents including myself as an adviser to these presidents did not understand the scale of china's ambitions. any particular example the fbi would just arrest the person

committing economic espionage. they put him in jail for six months or a year and assume the supposed a one-off thing so the scale was just not in our philosophy. i hate to say we were duped. we didn't understand the consequences of their economic power to surpass us. i don't think president reagan thought china would amount to what it is turned in today. mark: are we did now? >> a lot of people want to colin into this somewhat under terms of trade. there are still a committee that said china will collapse don't worry about it. they are still looking into this says they just want to be our partner in the world but as they are caught with more and more technology theft it becomes harder to explain this away. i think we are at it. now which will go on for many

more years of waking up and being uncertain what to do with china and china's friends deep inside of her system. the soviets in the cold war were always over there and uses soviet investments inside of america. was considered treason to help the soviet union but with china it's the opposite. they are considered her friends and it's a little bit too conservative to be against china these days. mark: how is donald trump doing with respect to china? he seems to be changing the paradigm. >> he has their attention. they are in a feisty fighting mode where they are matching all the tariffs and they are saying they are innocent of all of these allegations he is made of various reports of technology theft, technology transfer and many others. they claim this evidence doesn't

hold up and do something that's really quite dramatic. they said china is leading the rest of the world in favor of free trade against president trump. even i who have great admiration for chinese strategy as you can tell, even i didn't think they would be that dramatic to say we are protecting the world against president trump in terms of free trade. a lot of people believed it. mark: is actually hurting them somewhat. >> the value of their currency is dropped 25 or 30%. even if you are a free trader like i am that has nothing to do with china. for me it's a national security issue. do you agree to national security issue? >> i do and frankly that's why he wrote the book. trying to sound the alarm that it's not too late although i think it might be too late.

the scale of what we are going to have to do to turn things around is enormous. >> i want to pursue this after the break but can we give and what congress is focused on, russian order media is focused on china has a single focus. we have 1000 different locus is in china might he among them and maybe not. mark: ladies and gentlemen don't forget most weekends you can watch levin tv unsee or tv.com. we'd love to have you join our community over there. call eight 4411 tv. it's that simple. give us a call. we will be right back. real esurance employee nancy abraham. look her up online. esurance, it's surprisingly painless.

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peace of mind should never be out of reach. [ voice command beep ] xfinity home. xfinity home connects you to total home security you can control from anywhere on any device. and it protects you with 24/7 professional monitoring. i guess we're sleeping here tonight. xfinity home. simple. easy. awesome. call, go online or demo in an xfinity store today. mark: dr. michael pillsbury, isn't it too late? it question for me given the nature for government and particularly given the nature of one political party that has as focused on russia, russia, russian and you look at the median prayer focused on stormy daniels and things of that sort. maybe there's a story that slips are about china. you think we can ever come together and focus on what is

truly growing national security threat in an economic threat? >> it is started to happen. the pentagon got alarmed over some of the chinese technology acquisitions in silicon valley and elsewhere. the pentagon began to realize that the chinese were going upstream, ahead of our current technology and trying to purchase the technology to produce weapons and win wars 10 or 15 years from now. mark: smaller companies that are way out front? >> yes and having the uncanny instinct where to find the small companies. they were just randomly knocking on doors. once the pentagon became alarmed i think they asked the intelligence community for more help on this. to some degree the commerce department and the u.s. trade representatives have got more concerned about our trade and

their market share in world production. we have are losing our market share in automobiles and even things like paint so quite a long list. there is some level of alarm but the divisiveness still is there. the chinese help us so much in the cold war particularly president reagan with the afghanistan program, where they sold us $2 billion secretly for weapons that we then transferred to the afghan rebels and forced the soviet union into a humiliating defeat, to withdraw from afghanistan. mark: undercut them. i never knew that. china assisted us top-secret out of afghanistan.

you were there? >> yes, sir. we discovered the chinese were hawks against the soviet union. in our own system we have advocates, dr. kissinger and president nixon worked out a balance of power with the soviet union and we discovered the chinese were willing to use force and fairly aggressive efforts including sniper rifles being provided and commando rates inside of the soviet union. i covered this in one of my chapters and frankly i was delighted that the cia permitted us to come out. it's 30 years ago but there still some sensitivities and they helped us in cambodia. the u.s. and several other countries i tell the story in 100 year marathon they got together with the chinese intelligence service and provided weapons to the cambodian persistence to kick

the enemy's army out cambodia and afghanistan and they were the secret projects but the chinese show themselves as fierce opponents of the soviet union and who can guess otherwise? of course he thought there would be anti-communist pro american for the rest of history but it turned out that was a tactical move. at that time the soviets were their enemy as well as ours so they would help us take them out but who would have thought later they would see us as a rival for global leadership and turn on us mark: russia today in china so really this relationship -- russia is really a dying economy

, china is not so what is that relationship? >> the way the chinese measure power and the way they see a problem is the size of the gdp so undermines russia is about 10% of their gdp. this is the chinese, maybe 18 or 19 trillion. this is the russian economy, 1.7 trillion on a good day. mark: do they have a lot of nukes? >> yes but what can you do? the russians are growing. there are several million undocumented chinese inside of russia. the chinese say no, these are just chinese who wanted to live in the paradise of russia, siberia. there a number of efforts to get control of the energy resources minerals by russian companies. if i were paul vladimir putin i'd be more than a little worried about my chinese friends i think president trump may see this too.

mark: back to the united states. you have said unlike the enemies and i consider them enemies that we have faced they have treated themselves as government entities in our government. >> with our billionaires. there's something called the billionaire gap. the chinese have more billionaires than we do. they have about 580 billionaires we have about 540 billionaires. if you have seen our billionaires coming on tv whether it's bill gates or steve schwartzman or their are quite a few they really like china and they believe in chinese-american partnership going forward into the future. when our billionaires contact our president he listens.

he may have the intelligence community and the pentagon and his trade experts telling us look china is out to make this into the second class country but then he has is billionaires praising china is the force of the future. think this is one of the many approaches china has to continue this goodwill and pro china policies that are government still has. i've advocated as you know that we should just have an inventory. congress should demand him a toy about the federal government programs in place that help china. never been done. many departments have followed jimmy carter's orders from 1970 on in every department of the government must have the joint commission or partnership with china and find some way to help chinese economic growth. even a nuclear reactor safety for example. we provide nuclear reactor safety. sometimes very obscure areas. we have the faa teach them how

to build airliners safely. we all want airline safety. mark: so no one is in charge? >> it's always been a matter of what the president is concerned with. mark: when we come back a want to ask you about the way the chinese government has assimilated itself into academia to affect how younger people think about china and the types of scholarships that come out of these colleges and universities. we will be right back ! gas-x relieves pressure, bloating and discomfort... fast! so we can all sleep easier tonight. these days we're all stressed. i hear you, sister. stress can affect our minds. i call this dish, "stress." stress can also affect our bodies. so, i'm partnering with cigna to remind you that your emotional

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mark: live from "america's news headquarters" on jon scott. the partial government had -- shut down and sticking day. vice president mike pence met with staffers a bit so for not deal. in a tweaked the the vice president called me productive. democrats refused to budge on any wall funding. the meetings will continue tomorrow. a final farewell in california to a police officer killed in the line of duty. mourners gathered in modesto for the funeral of ronil singh. he was making a routine traffic stop the day after christmas when he was shot and killed by an alleged drunk driver who was in the country illegally to the man was caught after a brief manhunt and is now facing murder charges. i'm jon scott.

now back to "life, liberty and levin". for all your headlines log onto foxnews.com. mark: let me ask you this question dr. pillsbury. academia. how have the chinese taking advantage of our so-called open campuses and free-speech? >> they have got two goals. one is that most of their 300,000 students who are here now -- mark: well, they have 3000 students? how do you know that? >> is well over 300,000. the students are mainly in the hard sciences and engineering so they are focused on helping chinese economic growth and this next generation of manufacturing processes but sometimes they joke and say we are going to win nobel prizes. that base of hard currency is

important to them. they won't be challenged or investigated by the fbi. the fbi is concerned about the students. a lot of them are in laboratories doing research. they believe it's okay to go back to china with the equipment materials patents that got us graduate students. there a lot of success stories where they have done is put the other goal is what i would call the soft underbelly of our economic -- academic establishment. they need visas to have access to china so it's been very well understood for at least 20 years if you say the right things about china you'll have no problem getting your visa for your research into the chinese social security system or whatever you want to study. if you start criticizing china are praising the dalai lama are advocating a arms sales in taiwan you won't get the visa and you will look bad to your academic management.

this has been a problem that is influenced wider academic community talks about china. there couple of famous professors that i have been to advise her very much. one is. lincoln california juan and sandra mason and columbia. they both been denied visas for more than 20 years. their books are quite outspoken about chinese abuses and violations of the rights and property and so forth. these are two of our stars. can you imagine the other academic professors often bring this up the professor are so out of date. they have been to china for 20 or so this is an influence on our academic world. universities generals speaking are great positive in their discussions with china.

they do have the dalai lama visiting most of our universities. at the same time the economic and technology benefits of these 300,000 students has got to be enormous. one of my chinese colleagues in beijing has set up a team to bring back more and more of the students. some are studying in the west perhaps because they love liberty and they are going home to a nation of tyranny. this gives them all the incentives, very high salaries, their own laboratories to work on scientific projects. more and more these people are going home. they call them for sea turtles because sea turtles return to where they were born. this has been a huge boost where chinese technology and growth rate. mark: we have heard about this confucius institutes. you talk about that somewhat before. what are these institutes? >> this is the chinese

initiative almost 20 years ago. they realized they could go into american universities. we have more than 100 out of 500 in the world. the good american universities including stanford for example and they can say we are going to give you $4 billion. we are in the education business you don't really teach mandarin in your university. for $4 million would provide the faculty we will rent or buy a building and we want you to sign an agreement, sometimes secret and you will be able to teach her students chinese, very low tuition. obviously most universities agree to this. then i found out there were strings attached, that if you wanted a particular human rights dividend from china or if you wanted a chinese defector who had knowledge of the chinese strategy to speak, no you

couldn't do this because you would place your contract -- with confucius university. there is employed to 100 universities. mark: you have to admire the chinese chutzpah for lack of a better term. when he wrote this book the 100 year marathon you spoke of this defective and scholars in our country writing an enormous amount. you put together in this book. you've been doing this most of your career. you finish the book but what did you conclude because again you are part of the group early on that said let's embrace china. >> yes, absolutely. mark: let share permission and then he said to yourself wait a minute we need to make a u-turn and we need to make it fast. that's pretty much what your book says. the layout the whole situation.

doesn't it drive you a little crazy when you watch the news and listen to politicians? he laid it out for them. it couldn't be any simpler and they don't discuss it. they don't discuss it. how can a country survive such a thing? it we are not focus on what is the enemy, they are an enemy and we are talking about rush all the time and we are talking about these other things all the time. as talked about how we have a divided government. do we at least give some credit to president trump who is trying to focus somewhat on china? he brings it up all the time. he's trying to deal with them economically and he's trying to deal with them militarily and policy and so forth. you think you will get the recognition he deserves in china? >> i think he's doing a great job with china. he's got their attention. they have never seen an american president like this before. he has the concept that they are a challenge to our global

leadership. he also has the concept that there really is a business sense of the tariffs present and affect on china all out of proportion to what they actually are. it's not the actual tax. the word in china is -- the tariffs themselves will not bring china to its knees but the fact that an american president is talking about them as a challenge is something new. it's because of his success so far i have lost some of my pessimism. when i finished the book i thought this is not going to work. it's too late. mark: we will be right back.

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mark: dr. pillsbury and want to elaborate on the chinese

military threat. let me crystallize this. if we went to war with china would we win or would they went? >> it depends on where the war would be taking place and the tactics that would be used on the two sides. in terms of spending in numbers of aircraft carriers, we are way ahead. we have something like 10-1 superiority all things considered. they don't have any stealth bombers at all. they don't have any nuclear-powered aircraft carriers at all. in wargames i've been involved in china. i've been on the china team the so-called red team. i would always find if i fight in an american-style the american team would win that particular wargame. if i use chinese style based on

their writings for what they would do, attack or nerve centers first for example or attack our satellites in space for the first two hours of the war, if i would use things out of their chinese textbooks than the american team would lose. over time the pentagon learned more and more they can shift it to someone else. as long as the chinese team uses chinese strategy the american team would lose. so i think this is behind president obama's pivot towards asia even though it wasn't as much of the pivot as it should have been its part of the new national security strategy of president trump to take the military balance of power in asia seriously, that we are

slowly falling behind of these chinese submarines, jet fighters and tanks are still up. they are continuing to keep the nuclear forces low, nothing like us or the russians. now they are talking about increasing their nuclear forces. i would say the main challenge is politics influencing the next generation but the military challenge is there too. i was just delighted that secretary mattis recently made his first visit to beijing in his entire career. this shows somebody focused on europe and the middle east and in some sense taking seriously the military challenge from china. mark: can the chinese military and a great science and technology. its military sites and technology there's really no break is there?

>> it's one that is the hardest for us to appreciate to take the space program. we have always used nasa for exploring putting astronauts on the moon from the u.s. air worse , military use of space. we built to separate infrastructures roughly $70 billion each. the chinese say what the scent to that? let's just have one space infrastructure run by the military and save money and let's get technology from the russians in the affected give it to the american nasa high-tech as well. we have blocked them so far. their space program is jump ahead in the past 10 years. they not only got their own space station because we didn't let them meet with hours but they are talking about people on mars and they are still dangling the idea of joint space missions. they've been very pleased with

three moves, gravity the martian and red dawn. all three are showing the chinese in a positive way. their space program helps armor and astronauts so this is just another chinese challenge that we have been in some sense blind to. mark: ladies and gentlemen don't forget to join us on love and tv almost everyday. good to see her tv.com and give us a call also it 844-levintv. enjoying freshly squeezed orange juice. now no fruit is forbidden. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn? for all-day, guess what day it is!. gueshuh...anybody?is??

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mark: you interviewed eight high-level defectors for your book. i know you'll give us their names nor should you. what did you learn from them? >> the defect or is provide the kind of opposite side of the story from chinese officials. as you know over the last 40 years i've had a lot of contact with chinese generals, chinese intelligence, chinese diplomats. the defect ears come from within that group. they have had access to china's rate of secrets. they have now chosen freedom to live in the west and to seek a new identity. they are essentially in witness protection programs. they want the story spread that

they have been killed or died. sometimes they joke about the chinese won't joke with me about tibet defector diane did say yesterday was the drowning incident and they would say yes. they would laugh because the guys give the same story. defectors are still alive and their view is the cynicism of the chinese strategy that the things it took me so long to discover. the defectors can confirm all of this. they have seen documents and they have been to meetings where a marathon strategy is being implemented. it's not some kind of academic debate, is china really in doing this or not. to the defectors they have been there. they know it's talked about and in many ways they can't believe that america puts up with this and is not discovered it over such a long period of time. the defectors to some degree it warned me that they believe

china is entering a period of maximum danger over the next five to 10 years. this is a period when they will pull ahead in economic strength perhaps in military power as well. the americans are going to wake up. this is how they see president trump as the first american president to be awakened to this danger. there is enough opposition to president trump and the congress and the media that he will not be able to turn things around in terms of the china challenge. the defectors themselves are worried about this. as you can imagine they give pseudonyms but i tried to describe what each one had to say and one of the most dramatic is they have something called the communist party school in beijing where they teach strategy. part of it is to give market

share in high-tech and they claim this is how the americans after the civil war for many decades, this is how the americans became a world power and that we then dominated the united nations and 45. this seems to be their plan the defect or say. there's going to be a chinese world order. china is going to the shots that they are going to get there with our assistance the same way america got there with british assistance. mark: we will be right back. ta ke care of us. it was an instant savings and i should have changed a long time ago. we're the tenney's and we're usaa members for life. call usaa to start saving on insurance today. aafter bill's back needed alife. vacation from his vacation. so he stepped on the dr. scholl's kiosk. it recommends our best custom fit orthotic to relieve foot, knee, or lower back pain

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>> a lot of americans don't care. they tell me the 100-year marathon is based on us being number one. we had our chance. we had our run. let the chinese see if they can do better. this is the progressive view that we have been unable to achieve our goals of social justice. the chinese will do that. these are the two broad outcomes. i'm one of the americans who believes we are better off being number one in the world. but i'm not sure it's a unanimous view. he seems to have support of his base and from the congress. but with it -- but whether it will be enough, the chinese are

betting no. and the 100-year marathon has them on the winning side. mark: see you next time on "life, liberty & levin." [♪] jesse: welcome to. "watters' world," i'm jesse watters. nancy pelosi got the gavel and the left is starting to unravel. congrats to nancy. she got what she deserves. what did she get in the caracas caucus. caracas is the capital of venezuela. let's look at their agenda. universal healthcare. price tag, $30 trillion.