make it black and white colorfu. he was 85 years old. we say goodbye to an icon. >> bill: no doubt. >> sandra: he was really something buried there was a heck of a show. we will see you back here tomorrow morning. thank you for joining us. "outnumbered" starts now. >> melissa: fox news alert, new reaction is one of the most influence of voices in the country comes into the race for president in 2020. vermont senator bernie sanders announcing today that he will be launching a second white house bid with plans to "transform the country." this is "outnumbered" and i'm melissa francis. here today, fox business network anchor dagen mcdowell. fox business contributor, lisa boothe. fox business contributor, emily compagno. and jon summers, form recommendations director for former senate majority leader harry reid. what a good day to have you here! >> jon: thanks, good to be here again. >> melissa: think of for joining us. you usually wear brighter socks. those are fabulous. >> jon: i'm so sorry to disappoint. >> melissa: is not

disappointing! it's setting a serious tone. senator sanders hoping to reignite the grassroots energy that propelled his ultimately failed to 2016 primary run. sanders, a self-described democratic socialist, vowing not only to defeat president trump but to reshape the country with progressive policies like universal health care and a $15 minimum wage. watch. >> we are going to win. we are going to also launch what i think is unprecedented in modern american history. that is a grassroots movement, john. to lay the groundwork for transforming the economic and political life of this country. that's what's different. >> melissa: it's unclear if sanders will be able to stand out in the current crowded field of democratic candidates. among them, california senator kamala harris, who appeared to take a dig at senator sanders in new hampshire yesterday. watch. >> well, the people of new hampshire will tell you. i will tell you, i'm not a democratic socialist.

>> melissa: many candidates are echoing policies that sanders championed. senator elizabeth warren proposing universal child care plan, paid for by a wealth tax. senator harris, along with senator cory booker, again embracing the controversial green new deal yesterday. in the meantime, "the new york times" reports that former president obama has been quietly advising 2020 hopefuls and "hinted that he sees a relatively open space for a more moderate democrat, given the abundance of hard-charging liberals in the race." john, i can't forget myself -- roughly four years ago i was on the couch on the day that bernie sanders came out. at the time we were all sort of shocked. who is this person who has called himself a socialist? he was -- did the clinton's paying to get in the race? all kinds of drugs are made at the time. lo and behold, he gets more than 60% of the vote in new hampshire and he has drag the conversation

to the left across the country. he has already achieved a lot. what do you think of his chances this time around? >> jon: and will see him at all becoming the nominee. for one -- i don't, no. i'm kind of bothered by the fact that he sort of goes between wanting to be an independent who caucuses with democrats versus being a democratic socialist. what i will give him credit for is actually coming out very boldly and unapologetically for policies that he really believes in. i think that's important. it added a level of authenticity in that campaign that i think we needed, particularly in 2016. but now we have another crop of candidates coming out. sticking of a territory last night. we heard from amy klobuchar, taking out a little bit of that middle ground. we will see where people come out. but the policy discussions are very good. >> melissa: you mention amy klobuchar on that sound bite. let's play that quickly so the audience knows what you're talking about. >> would you support free college for all? >> i'm not for free for your

college for all. no. if i was a magic genie and could give that to everyone and we could afford it, i would. >> melissa: dagen, now she's going to stand out in the group. basically saying no. it's amazing how far we've come when you look at bernie sanders' ad that he rolled out. he went through all the policies that he championed at the beginning of his run, which seemed outrageous. now, at this point, democrats are mostly embracing it. if you have to stand up and say, "no, i'm not forgiving away the farm to every sickle person. there isn't enough farm." >> dagen: and we will talk about socialism in the few short breaths. that's where a lot of this conversation is going. i don't think that is overstating it. he calls himself a democratic socialist. no, he's a socialist. in fact, it's his medicare for all plan that he introduced not that long ago that all these other senators and now presidential candidates have glommed onto. it doesn't do away with private

health insurance in this country. you're going to kick more than 150 million people off their private health insurance that they get through their employer, and rip up medicare as we know it. again, he has gone so far left that you know how the likes of elizabeth warren going even further left and saying, "i'm in favor of confiscating wealth in this country to pay for, in part, child care for all!" anybody -- i joked in the tease that somebody that rhymes with smiden is going to come in and be a moderate. joe biden could come in -- talking about president obama, come in and say, "i'm for fixing obamacare." >> lisa: i don't think you can say that bernie sanders is outside the mainstream of the democratic party anymore. look at the most recent poll of fox news, shutting the 43% of the democrats have a positive view of socialism. gallup found lester in the polling that in the first ever, more democrats have a positive view of socialism than

capitalism. in the backdrop of venezuela, which i know we will get to come and look at what socialism does. looking with the nationalization of industries like oil, banking, agriculture, dust to an economy that was once one of the richest economies in latin america. it is now so poor, we have a point where 14-year-olds are literally selling their bodies to try and make money. you have women who were formerly doctors, teachers, doing the exact same thing. people who are writing, begging for food. you look at maduro being able to use the power of food over those people. government control. the speech which we are going to get to it so powerful and so impactful, basically painting the opportunity for futures. one, where the government retains control, or freedom. which is what american capitalism, what we believe in. >> melissa: we haven't heard from emily yet. go ahead. the three some of my issues about bernie sanders -- first of all, i think that recycled natue that he and the democratic party are used to in terms of putting forth their "who is

holding the flag," that the party has evolved past that. so i simply don't see the party that has evolved to this day really accurately standing behind him and letting him represent that base. secondly, when you are talking about transforming a party and the country, and the grassroots movement required to do that, i don't see the runway ahead of him to do so. i don't see him stepping aside from his hubris to pass the torch to somebody who could in invest in that long-term sense come to carry that grassroots movement. i don't see him being able to do it >> dagen: jon, i will give you the final were to move on. if you say his name to democrats, they rolled their eyes. >> jon: as i said, i don't see him becoming the nominee. keep on with the scare tactics. it's going to work great for us. i don't think anyone sees us headed in the direction of venezuela. they just don't see that. they know that's not what are selling. they don't see the united states of america in any way heading in that direction. they are a lot smarter than a

republican -- >> dagen: hold that thought. it's not a concern about what might happen next year if you go toward socialist policies, it's how it evolves. all of the sin that shows up in the united states is not the country we thought it was. this is what we are talking about. president trump last night, yesterday, blasting socialism during a foreign policy address in. to members of the venezuelan ex-pat community. the president ramping up pressure for the country's embattled socialist president to step down, and explicitly going after the dispute regime ideology. watch this. >> we know that socialism is not about justice. it's not about equality. it's not about lifting up the poor. socialism is about one thing only -- power for the ruling class. [applause] and the more power they get, the more they crave. >> dagen: meantime, a venezuelan citizen who escaped

the country in his teens drawing parallels between what he experienced in venezuela and his perception of the rise of socialism in the united states. here is daniel dimartino on "the story" with martha maccallum. >> i hear what i heard back in venezuela from the same socialist regime that told us every thing was all all right. health care was a right, housing was a right, jobs where a right. when everything is a right according to the government, nothing really is. everyone is either unemployed or hyperinflation has consumed our wages. >> dagen: since jon got the last word at the end of that segment, i go to lisa. >> lisa: thank you. >> dagen: you get to defend yourself. >> lisa: i appreciate that, dig in. thank you. you can't say socialism isn't at our doorstep relook at the amount of democrats who support socialism over capitalism, as i mentioned in the gallup poll. you have democrats calling for single payer, calling for the green new deal which would up

and major industries in this country. you can't make the case. president trump giving this speech was so smart. he puts pressure on maduro, which is important. drastically, it's going to be a big fight heading into trying 20. depending on who democrats nominate. he gave the speech in miami, florida, where you have a large cuban population. that they went to present turbo 2016 and it's a powerful voting block. >> dagen: but andrew gillum was behind medicare for all. i swear that what gave ron desantis a leg up in the governor's race was older people in that country, and people who came from socialist regimes. they understand the devastation. basically, at a eradication of medicare as we know it and a takeover by the government is very dangerous. >> melissa: actually think you guys are both right and the sense that it starts where you are, jon. it starts with this idea if the mic of, "wouldn't it be nice if?" you just do a little bit because

these people can't get up on their own. it's ours with these good wishes. the problem is that human beings are motivated by self-interest. that's why the free market works. when you get into a system where you are beginning to give everything away, all of a sudden people start gaming the system. a person who gets to decide who gets the goods is the political ruling class. i don't think those folks in washington are the ones to decide. "you get $2, you get $1." that's what it turns into. >> lisa: beautifully said. >> dagen: this is not just money, these are people. these are life and death just like when you deal with medicare as we know it. which, by the way, the hospital trust fund is going bust by 2026. so that's the danger. my great aunt -- i've said this before -- my great aunt marguerite in this country was sterilized because she was mentally disabled. this is something that went on in the state of virginia. thousands of people were sterilized in this country. just in the state of virginia,

up until the late '70s. to think that can't happen again because we don't remember that -- that's what is dangerous. that's why socialism scares people. >> emily: that's a point i was going to make. my issue, too, the conversation -- not this one, but the national conversation that is so polarizing a philosophical is that it has no memory. but there so many voices at the kitchen table presently and among family members that aren't being representatives in the mainstream media, or those of te loudest on the left. the reality of the past. what i also don't understand is for those entrenched in our government and are continuing to seek that, the power grab they are engaged in, they are not utilizing what we have been seeing for the last decade. we talk about the green new deal and how to refresh things, how to save money, do this, turn things over -- what about the $1.7 billion we lose every year just with empty federal buildings? where is the digging in at the analysis of what is present rather than a philosophical nature of what's happening in the future to the tune of

trillions? >> lisa: but it's happening now in venezuela. it doesn't -- it's here. it's in venezuela right now. you have 350,000 people reported that have inadequate medical care and could die as a result. >> jon: here is the great news -- if democrats are so excited for socialism like you think they are, lisa, they can go all in on bernie sanders. as i think back to 2016, that's not what happened. >> lisa: kamala harris and cory booker are addressing the same policies, though. >> jon: that's not happening at all. if you would get a word in coming here. >> dagen: kamala harris came in and essentially said in her town hall after she declared her candidacy -- she has backed the medicare for all build. she came out again for it, and it does away with private insurance. it is a government takeover of the health care and health insurance system in this country. that's a fact. >> jon: let me tell you something. again, going back talking about

a about amy klobuchar, she was one who was very confident in promoting progressive values and progressive policy. she also said he can't give away everything to the point melissa was making. when you talk about health care, medicare for all, whatever you want to call it. obamacare. at the end of the day, anyone who has a sick family member wants that family member to go to the doctor. i will proudly stand with any party who will increase access for your child, my child, anyone's family member, to be able to go to the doctor when they need to. and that's what we are talking about. >> dagen: we've got to go. the slogan for medicare for all will be, "you like your dr. question what you don't get to keep him." new reaction to the latest expose of claims from former acting fbi director andrew mccabe saying he told republicans he was launching a probe of the president. that's getting serious pushback. a live report and much more on that ahead. 16 states filing a lawsuit against the president's declaration of a national

emergency at our southern border, just as the president predicted. could this actually keep them from building that wall? >> i'm so disappointed in the democrats. they need more agents, they need more technology. the technology is very old. and they need some barriers. ♪ ♪ when cravings hit, hit back. choose glucerna, with slow release carbs to help manage blood sugar, and start making everyday progress. glucerna.

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♪ >> lisa: president trump respond to a lawsuit from 16 states to stop his national emergency declaration at our southern border. california leading the charge to block the president from shifting billions of federal daughter don mike dollars to build his border wall. all the states have democratic attorney general. they say subverting those funds will ultimately hurt their economies. there is new reaction in the form of protest across country. this video surfacing of dozens of demonstrators vandalizing the

national border patrol museum in el paso, texas, on saturday. the president tweeting today, "as i predicted, 16 states led mostly by open border democrats and the radical left have filed a lawsuit and, of course, the ninth circuit. california, the state that is wasted billions of dollars on their out-of-control fast train, with no hope of completion, seems in charge." emily, i will go to you. as our attorney on the couch, do these states have a case and where does this go on the courts? >> emily: they are arguing many different things. basically, we are hearing the talking points from both sides. they are addressing their appropriations aspect. they are addressing the emergency declaration aspect. it is -- >> lisa: does he have the authority, do you think? >> emily: has come he does. i wanted to point out something. thank you for my question. there are seeds of emergencies and effect now. we are hearing that. i want to probe a little deeper. but we are reading is the fact that it doesn't have to do with appropriate and different funds or securing different funds from other parts of the government.

but there's a whole host of arenas where does and it has to do specifically with the executive power. why do we think that export controls in the hands of the white house and has been for over four presidents, or throughout four presidents? that's been surpassed unsuccessfully. i don't see anyone in congress arguing that or even holding their every six month analysis which, according to that, they are supposed to do. there has been a level of, frankly, laziness and an absolute disinterest in evening maintaining this whole time. ask that lawsuit really quickly -- the states are also arguing the fact that they are aggrieved that the citizens are aggrieved. if you look at the map, it's not a clinic or arizona. but it includes some northeastern ones. they are aggrieved by the fact that a large criminal justice component is being affected. that's a law enforcement, drug export and import, the illegal drug aspect, and more. i found that disingenuous of the lease because of how much a celebrity place into those part

parts. >> lisa: i appreciate the analysis. jon, the thing that's frustrating or that i don't get about democrats is how somebody like jerry nadler -- who has basically investigative oversight as the dysuria chairman of things like immigration -- he is saying things like, "we are not going to let president trump be a king or a tyrant or usurp the power of the purse." if he supported president trump on daca. what is the difference between the two? >> jon: we are talking about the power of the press that's one of the reason why -- it >> lisa: but jon, can i -- >> jon: not that they are opposed to what he's doing. republicans are, as well. >> lisa: i want to know the difference. the point is the fact that your president obama basically unilaterally rewriting the laws. the same acquisition goes to president trump using the wall parts of what is the difference between the two? >> jon: he did not declare a national emergency. i want to go back -- in my free time sometimes i do really boring things. one thing i did over this weekend was read the republican

policy platform. on page two -- >> melissa: you found that born? [laughter] >> jon: on page two it says, " "we condemn seizing the power of the purse from elective representative." and that's exactly what this president is doing right now. the reality is he is actually dragging this out. it's going to be a long court proceeding, as we talked about. >> melissa: i think that's what he's doing it. >> jon: that is -- >> melissa: if you listen, john roberts has been doing some fantastic reporting on this. he breaks down were all the various pots of money that he's using comes from. he points out that the money that releases with the national emergency that comes along with it is just one of the little tiny parts. he has all this other money over here that he has taken from other spots. i think it's a way to continue the fight for a long period of time and keep it in the headlines. >> jon: exactly. >> melissa: why he continues to build the side. speech he can expect these states to file an injunction blocking him from tapping into

the money he's looking for from the military and other sources. as it works its way through the courts, but to the election in 2020. you think nancy pelosi -- the president has essentially started a fight that he doesn't even have to win the. the >> jon: that's what the disingenuous pieces of it are. he's doing it in in order to get it done quickly. he wants to drag it out the 2020. >> dagen: then all politicians are disingenuous. we can all agree on that. it's a point of agreement. >> lisa: well, catherine herridge is next on the serious pushback against the latest claim from former acting fbi director andrew mccabe. what the story means for the new attorney general, bill barr, as he takes the helm ahead. >> did you suspect the president might actually be working for russia? >> we thought that might be possible, yes. ♪

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>> melissa: fox news alert, new reaction to former acting fbi director andrew mccabe as he continues making explosive claims on his book tour. the former fbi officials and congressional leadership did nod them a counterintelligence investigation into president trump had been launched. saying one of the reasons the probe was opened was concerned that the president was a potential national security threat. chief intelligence correspondent catherine herridge's life in washington with the latest. catherine? >> thank you, melissa. this morning as part of his promotional book tour andrew mccabe told nbc news that he breached congressional leadership, known as the gang of 8, that he opened the case into the president in may of 2017. >> this is a recommendation that came to me with my team. i reviewed it with our lawyers are discussed with length. >> did you tell congress? >> i told them what i had done. >> did anybody object?

>> that's the important part. nobody objected. not the legal, constitutional grounds, or based on the facts. >> a member of congressional leadership tells fox news that his claim is confusing and possibly misleading because congressional leadership knew months earlier that the term campaign was under investigation. on "60 minutes," he said the firing of director comey and other incidents involving russia drove his decision-making. >> that was on the president's mind. then the president made those public comments that you referenced. both on nbc and to the russians, which was captured in the oval office. put together, these circumstances work. facts that indicated a crime may have been committed. the president may have been engaged in obstruction of justice and the firing of jim comey. >> given those claims is worth a second look at the testimony under oath just two days after

his old boss was fired. in that testimony, he struck a different tone entirely. >> i do believe there is a crisis of confidence in the leadership of the fbi. i suppose it's somewhat self-serving and i apologize for that. [laughter] it was completely within the president's authority to take the steps that he did. we all understand that. >> on twitter this morning, the president said he never said anything bad about andrew mccabe's wife of irfan not having taking money from another resource. they found that he did not declare more than $650,000 on disclosure forms at the time. a bureau spokesperson said that he was certified peer that's the term. being in compliance and full disclosure with not required of his wife's salary for the campaign contribution she received, melissa. >> melissa: good for you, finding that piece where he said

under oath the exact opposite of what he said on "the today show." there you go. thank you for that. among new calls to investigate the justice department's handling of these probes, new attorney general bill barr is beginning his first full week on the job as the nation's top law enforcement officer. republican house judiciary committee member john radcliffe says barr has a historic opportunity. watch. >> i will tell you, it's incredible could challenge but he has the opportunity to be perhaps the most consequential attorney general their lifetime. he is going to have the opportunity to try and restore the american people's confidence in the justice department. the first order of business for bill barr would be to address the byproduct of those senior leaders at the fbi and the department of justice that were trying to undermine the american election of 2016. that byproduct is the mueller investigation. >> melissa: you know it so interesting about that, john? no matter which side of the i use it on you think that

department basically meddled with the will of the american people. whether it was coming out and making that announcement about hillary clinton's emails, i do have democrats still so at about that and feeling undermined the election. now, on the right, people feeling like andrew mccabe and the others in that room are undermining the will of the people and trying to overturn the election. either way, we have this real crisis of confidence. you think that william barr is somebody that can help get things back in order? >> jon: i certainly hope so. he has a lot of respect in washington and his been on a long time. hopefully he's able to do that. and hopefully president trump will allow them to do that. part of the reason there is a lack of confidence the doj's that the president has undermined the doj are too much day one. >> melissa: they had nothing to do with the hillary clinton emails thing? there were a lot of problems going on before the election. comey did a lot of damage before president trump ever came to office. >> jon: with the president has done a terrible job of doing

anything that reinforces what law enforcement is doing. instrument of attorney general sessions i think also says a lot about how he has handled law-enforcement prints hopefully he will let barr do the job and try to bring back some confidence. >> dagen: let me just point this out -- special counselor bob mueller has not been fired. that is a talking point from the left, from the democrats, literally starting the day the special counsel was appointed. it has not happened. bill barr, new attorney general, will not come in and fire him. if anything, "the wall street journal" editorial board writes about this today. that bill barr, in a major speech, needs to come out and start explaining to the public where the fbi went so badly wrong and what he is going to do to make sure it never happens again. i'm paraphrasing. >> emily: i respectfully disagree with everything you said. [laughter] whatever erosion -- >> melissa: everything cuesta mag [laughter] >> lisa: i love it. i'm going to use it.

>> emily: whatever erosion has happened in the public space in terms of the fbi has not been on the part of the president. i'm not saying he is without -- to go in separate pots. i want to point out another thing. that victimhood that he obtained on the book tour, when he passed the ig report and said it was a selective presentation of evidence against me, only doing the bidding, the evidence they want to see. refusing to discuss the fact that he's being investigated for possible criminal charges. i foresee a subpoena for rosenstein who is now evading even mentioning the topic of whether he was kidding or not about wearing a wire. i think that is the level of interest the public needs to have. because how is it even possible that that investigation was not tainted by those political opinions? now we are seeing on air, they are shouting from the rooftops on book tours about how it did. >> melissa: do you think william barr -- everybody here on the couch basically has a beef with the doj and the fbi and how things have been

run. no matter what side you are on. do you think william barr is the guy who can put the house back in order? >> lisa: i certainly hope so. as conversations on this couch demonstrate, the department of justice has taken a hit in credibility. both sides of the aisle do not trust the department of justice. so i hope that barr is able to do that. we need to see some sort of accountability acknowledgment that there was a vast amount of failure at the doj in order for that to happen. i also think you mentioned president trump's distrust of the department of justice. some of that is worth it. you have rod rosenstein, the one who laid out the memo for firing james comey and and you point e special counsel once that happens. you've got all these people involved in the investigation, clear bias against president trump. >> dagen: but they use these cronies, these bureaucrats within justice and the fbi -- they used a dossier that was paid for by the hillary clinton campaign, and unverified

dossier, to get a warrant to spy on somebody within the term campaign! how can anybody say that it isn't just an abuse of power and a disgusting abuse of law enforcement? i do understand that! >> melissa: on that note, amid the twists and turns in the jussie smollett case, the media's role is being called into question. some prominent figures do a big 180 from believing him to now criticizing him. with this could mean for public discourse on some very complex issues. we will debate that. ♪ people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of once-weekly ozempic®. in a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than seven and maintained it. oh! under seven? and you may lose weight. in the same one-year study, adults lost on average up to 12 pounds. oh! up to 12 pounds? a two-year study showed that ozempic® does not increase the risk of major cardiovascular events like heart attack, stroke, or death.

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♪ >> dagen: new followed after chicago police cast more doubts over allegations from actor jussie smollett. now, some in the media who were initially sympathetic to him are calling for him to be held accountable if he was not being truthful. here is msnbc host al sharpton on sunday. >> if it is found that smollett

and these gentlemen did in some way perpetrate something that is not true, they ought to face accountability to the maximum. >> dagen: there are new questions over the way early skeptics of smollett's claims were attacks. one "gq" writer print size the police media outlets for being careful, writing this -- "conscious wording is one last wound inflicted on smollett's battered body. the hedging but they don't need hedging. a crime scene involving a corpse is not discussed as a possible death." in a "new york times" op-ed, commentator noah rothman writes that this is the case of people in power ignoring facts to advance their causes. "this case exhibit five is the tendency of those are bidders to amplify "perfect crimes" that advance their political agenda." what lessons do we learn from this in the media and across the

country? >> jon: i think people were quick to take it as his word because it's unthinkable that someone would make up something like this. i watch the coverage. it's important that we don't allow this to become an excuse for believing that racism and homophobia don't exist. i can tell you as a gay guy that homophobia is very much alive. i can share voice mails that help prove a point. i hope that we would learn this important lesson. i hope that the people who need to be held accountable are held accountable. but i hope it doesn't divert us from a very important conversation that we still need to continue to have as we continue -- >> dagen: i just want to add, there is this compulsion on social media not just with this case but in general to weigh in. the covington high school kids on washington, to jump in to signal their virtue without knowing anything about what really happened.

the one that's because the same mob on social media attacks people who don't weigh in. "why didn't you say something to support this person?" "it's because you are anti-gay? is it because you support terms that you didn't say anything?" and the point you make is those that are now criticizing him and at his throat, again, before we have all the facts, are making the point that he is taking away the conversation from other victims who really have been victims. that it's a disservice. all the way around, it's just -- i forget also speaks to -- we say in these cases, "believe all victims, believe all women." it has to be "here all victims, here all women." and you decide if you hear them whether they are credible. >> lisa: i view the covington kids story in this case in the same way. if so may people in the media and on the left choosing to believe that narrative that is most damaging to president trump and trump supporters.

i think what it shows us how much the left and so many people in the media have such a disdain for the millions of americans voted for president trump. my question to democrats and also candidates like kamala harris and cory booker who are so quick to believe the story, how are you supposed to flip the 22 counties in wisconsin that went from obama trump? the counties in iowa that went from obama trump? when you loathes and have celeste don't like such disdain for those voters. >> jon: i will agree with you with the covington kids. there's a difference between these two cases. with the covington kids, people did jump to conclusions because they didn't have the evidence there. as opposed to the situation were somebody reported, said it did happen. there are two different situations. >> dagen: i just broadly said, we have lost the ability to just shut up. [laughter] shut up in this country, and listen and wait for facts to come out. unless you are going to hit the ground running and dig up those facts and be an actual reporter

and a journalist, then you need to just sit back and let the story developed. >> emily: what disturbs me the most as an attorney is the fact that specificity of language is being attacked in this example. that "gq" quote. why is it that when the hallmark literally of our criminal justice system is that there are allegations until corroborative evidence is brought into prove it? you can make an informed decision. then what is it that literally people were attacked, vilified, for choosing to wait and not jump in and to actually for cooperative evidence? on either side. the analogy, i do agree, it can be made to so many things. including #metoo, and others excluding round there. it's a hallmark of our system to wait and see and be presented with evidence. to say, "i hear you." it doesn't mean they believe you in this moment. i'm reserving judgment showed respect for it. it behooves all of us to have that measured approach. and the apology afterwards, "i'm sorry, i shouldn't have jumped

in," have you mitigated the response a popular question my cabbie responded appropriately to the nth degree as you should? all sides are being attacked. >> dagen: thanks, all. the second bird donna clement to accuse justin fairfax of sexual assault doubling down on her call for a public hearing. can state lawmakers satisfy her request? an delivery due process. we will take that up, next. ♪ fo 's value. thank you, admiral. so if you need money for your family, call newday usa. go to newdayusa.com or call 1-855-newdayusa need cash? at newday, veteran homeowners can get 54,000 dollars or more to consolidate high rate credit card debt and lower their payments by 600 dollars every month. go to newdayusa.com or call 1-855-newdayusa

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>> lisa: welcome back. the second woman accusing virginia lieutenant governor justin fairfax of sexual assault said she is willing to testify in public, and justin fairfax should come too. meredith wasn't calling out virginia lawmakers in an op-ed writing, "i am frustrated by calls for an investigation rather than a public hearing into these matters. such investigations are secret proceedings out of the public eye, leaving victims vulnerable to selective leaks and smears." and we all know how such visitations and come with inconclusive results." meanwhile, virginia's former governor terry mcauliffe appearing to have a change of heart. mccullough first said it was time for governor ralph northam to step down after that basic, graces yearbook photo service. but now he says northam could survive the controversy. listen to this. >> i think he has made a decision he is going to stand.

the way that ralph survives and brings virginia back together, he's got to lean in on these very important issues. >> lisa: john, do you think this apparent change of heart has to do with the fact that you have three top democrat lawmakers in the state of virginia that are all facing their own series of crisis? >> i don't know that terry mcauliffe -- i don't pretend to speak for him, but i didn't pick that up as him changing his opinion so much a sort of pontificating what he ought to do if he decides to stay. i think northam should step down paid i absolutely think he should step down. public hearings on fairfax, fine. i think we should be investigations, just like i said during the kavanaugh period. i thought there should be investigations than other should be now. if you did something wrong, he should be held accountable. if this is a false allegation, the person making this allegation should also be held accountable. >> lisa: do you think this will have an impact? there are state legislative races this year, in november, for virginia. what impact is this going to have in the electorate, do you think? >> jon: such a great question. it's hard to know.

obviously every democratic candidate on the trail is going to be asked, "do you support him? do you think they should step down? "and hopefully they've already got those answers. to me, those answers are pretty obvious. because if you go with morality, then you know what needs to happen. it'll be interesting to see what the impact is. it's hard to predict exactly what it would be at the stage in the game. >> lisa: that's fair. [laughs] emily, you talked about in the last block about due process. in the #metoo era, i think that's one of the biggest problems we face. he dealing with the alleged victims that come forward with accusations but also providing due process for the accused. how best to be achieve that goal in this day and age? >> emily: that's a great question. i think there are different avenues that victims can pursue. what we are seeing played out is how effective that is. for example, on the law enforcement side, we see roadblocks that pop up in terms of the statute of limitations or corroborative evidence. we see in many cases that were

splashed all over the national conversation and the front page of media that come at the time, there were declinations for the prosecutorial discretion to decide to prosecute or not. that they were declinations, there are police department's he did not decline to refer it even to the d.a. for that reason. there's that kind of issue. then there's the one we heard in the tease that certain investigations are behind closed doors. i understand wholeheartedly from that victim -- or that alleged victim, from her saying, "that's not good enough for me. i don't trust that process, i don't trust those results." and then we have the public hearings were people declined to be quiet and rush to judgment. for viewers, i think the answer is that there's a ton of different processes. but if there are issues we have with them, they are legislatively able to be taken care of. that something the voters in virginia, to me, should take it upon themselves to participate in. >> dagen: yes, let ralph northam -- the governor of my home state -- state in that place so now we can get back to his explanation of how infanticide would work in the

state under the abortion law. because i think that is a huge fear for a lot of democrats. that he basically laid out something that they are not willing to discuss. that will really unite people who are conservative in this country. >> lisa: for the viewers at home, why that is important is because of the statewide legislative races that are up this november. republicans only hold a very small majority in the house of delegates and the state senate. i am also a virginian. that bill could potentially pass if the dynamics change there. >> dagen: it also forces all the democrats running for the presidential nomination to talk about what they say in terms of pro-life or pro-choice. >> lisa: more "outnumbered" and am just a moment. stay with us. drivewise. feedback that helps you drive safer. and that can lower your cost now that you know the truth... are you in good hands? reach her health goals!

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we are back tomorrow at noon eastern. right now, here's melissa francis in for harris. >> melissa: fox news alert, the first major legal challenge to president trump's emergency declaration is here. 16 states, led by california, accusing the president of an unconstitutional use of executive power. let's get to "outnumbered overtime." i'm melissa francis in today for harris faulkner. attorneys general for all parts of the country making their case against the president, denouncing his controversial method to fund the portable. >> the responsibility to determine where our taxpayer dollars go is congress' responsibility. donald trump cannot usurp that obligation and privilege. he is trying to do that through this fabricated emergency declaration, which he himself has admitted he didn't have to do. in every respect, the facts prove that donald trump is acting outside the law in declaring an emergency.