soon as it begins. we'll see how long the judge talks. for sandra smith and nicole and bret and everybody else i'm bill hemmer. see you we will see you tomorrow. >> sandra: 's p25 starts now. >> harris: we are waiting sentencing for paul manafort as the former truck campaign chairman apparently has pleaded for mercy today in the washington, d.c., federal court. this is his second and final round of sentencing after he was hit with a 47 month sentence in virginia court last week for tax and bank fraud. this is "outnumbered" you're watching. i'm harris faulkner. here today, melissa francis. national security analysts and fox news contributor, morgan ortagus. syndicated radio host and fox news contributor, leslie marshall. in the center seat, right on time with today's news that's all about legality, fox news senior judicial analyst, judge andrew napolitano. a host of the liberty file on the fox nation. we will talk with everybody in a moment. let's cover the breaking news.

manafort has arrived at court and a realtor today, and apologize to the court asking for leniency. reportedly saying the case has taken everything from him already. his properties, cash, and life insurance, and he is asking not to be taken away from his wife for any longer than the sentence already imposed last week of 47 months. one a mark from the judge stands out at this point. she says, "the question of whether there was any collision with russia was not presented in this case period period. therefore, it was not resolved by this case. chief intelligence correspond kevin hedges live at u.s. district court. that judges hearing a lot from metaphor and he was here hearing a lot from her. >> that's right, harris. good afternoon. where several minutes into a lengthy statement from the benc bench, amy berman jackson. this is her way of laying the foundation for the sentence you will ultimately impose shortly.

the maximum here is ten years, and it was for two conspiracy counts. there are a number of headlines that have jumped out from judge jackson's statements this morning. she is essentially saying that paul manafort, in her view, has been gaming the system his entire life. bank fraud, tax fraud, foreign lobbying violations. that this is not a one-off, but a pattern of behavior. she also stated, from the bench, that she does not believe manafort has accepted responsibility for one of the conspiracies that the special counsel alleged, which is witness tampering. it was outreach from paul manafort, along with a russian-born political consultant, konstantin kilimnik, to two individuals. it was via email, text message, and encrypted apps. it was described as an effort to shape their testimony in this case. the lobbying that was being done

on behalf of a pro-russian former president of the ukraine was focused solely on europe. most importantly, the judge has taken issue with the defense's statements about the special counsel. that the case really would only have been brought or was only brought because of manafort's position with the trump campaign. she says that mantra, her words, was inconsistent with a "genuine acceptance of responsibility." finally, she has made the case here, if you will, that as far as she is concerned this issue of russian collusion or coordination between moscow and the trump campaign was not an issue that was presented to the court. so, in her view, it was unresolved. contrast that what we've heard from the virginia judge last week who is very clear that the case was not in his view at all about russian collusion, harris. >> melissa: catherine, this is melissa francis paid let me ask you a quick question, because he brought up that russian-born

operative. the political operative, konstantin kilimnik. we did learn that he had previously worked for the state departments, or had contact with the state department. is that right? >> konstantin kilimnik -- i'm glad you raised that -- is really important character in all of these charges or allegations against manafort. he is a russian-born political consultant who worked with manafort on this ukraine file, the lobbying work. the allegation that has been made about konstantin kilimnik through anonymous sources is that he was tied to russian intelligence. that, if you will, was kind of the pivot point where the fulcrum that might have potentially tied a member of the trump campaign to moscow. but would be heard from the manafort's lawyer today is thate are records that had previously been under seal, that showed manafort and konstantin kilimnik were working directly with senior state department officials in

the ukraine. so this would undercut the idea that he was russian intelligence, melissa. >> melissa: is this the first time we've heard that? that's big. >> that's the first time we have heard this publicly, though privately it has been discussed by those close to manafort that there was, in their view, exculpatory evidence. emails and the like, that showed there was a direct work between konstantin kilimnik and the state department. again, this is their position prayed that it undercuts the idea that somehow konstantin kilimnik was russian intelligence. again, this would be the link or the fulcrum point that would take someone from the campaign to moscow. >> harris: catherine, it's been addressing all along to see kind of what paul manafort is like in court. the description of him today is quite different than what we saw him sentenced to 47 months behind bars previously in a virginia court. >> well, what we've seen in court today, harris -- and you

are quite right to point this out -- is paul manafort, who listened to the virginia judge last week, ts ellis, he appeared today in court more contrite, trying to be crystal clear in his statements about accepting personal responsibility for his actions. he says the solitary confinement that he has been held in for the better part of six or seven months has been a period of self-reflection and new self-awareness of his past actions. more importantly, he has seen the damage that this has done and the penalty, in effect, that his family has had to pay for his actions. the judge in this case, amy berman jackson, recognized. he should get credit, she said, for taking responsibility for his actions. but she said that was simply not enough to mitigate a significant sentence. she said that this was a gaming of the system.

a pattern of behavior by manafort. it was not a one-off. and she said he had huge amounts of money, more houses than anyone could ever live in, and he had more suits than anyone could ever wear. references to his very lavish lifestyle. >> harris: you know, it's interesting to note as well, today, in this second and final sentencing with this case, the whole thing about -- this is not about russian collusion. it will be concluded in this case. it wasn't talked about in this case. just wondering, what lies ahead for him. wait, i've got to step in. before you even say anything, because manafort has been sentence. let's get to that. >> okay, let's do that. >> harris: in this fox news alert we are learning that paul manafort knows his sentence at this point, and we've been able to verify this. we are working on it right now. we know that other outlets are reporting back.

i want to come to you, judge andrew napolitano, just talk about what this judge is dealing with. this has been longer than a few minutes that she has been responding to the charges in this case, and ready to get to this to the sentencing. >> judge napolitano: she basically has in front of her hundreds of pages, some from the government, wanting to be sentenced to the maximum. and some from his lawyers wanting them to be sentenced to what he's already been sentenced to by judge ellis so there is no additional time. her job is, to reconcile the differences between those two. more importantly her job is to check all the boxes. it's a long checklist just to go through. she can't omit anything. that's the worst thing that can happen, for her to have to sentence him again. from her perspective. in order to be thorough and complete, fair to the government and fair to the defendant, she has to go through every box that has to be checked. where do the boxes come from? from the statute and from the sentencing guidelines.

>> harris: if that sentence is much like were very different from the one he's already gotten, is there a chance for them to run concurrently? which means he wouldn't do any more time than 47 months? >> judge napolitano: that is the key sentence. i realize another network has reported with the time is, but the other network hasn't reported it whether it's consecutive or concurrent. >> harris: and we are working on that. >> judge napolitano: if he can serve both sentences at the same time, that's alma and fran. he eats up 2 days for every one that he serves. >> melissa: what is since you got from the comment you heard from the judge? you delivered comments, you've heard me before. what is your sense? >> judge napolitano: at one point she seemed to show a bit of compassion when she said he is not public enemy number one. another point, she showed a bit of irritation when she was angry he suggested the only reason it was in her courtroom was because of the existence of the special prosecutor. bob mueller. even though the charges to which he pleaded guilty have nothing to do with mueller's initial charge. the most damning thing she said

is that she accuse him of not being candid with her during the sentencing. i tell you, that's the worst thing you can do at the sentencing. his lie to a judge during the sentencing. >> melissa: or give her the impression that that is what you are doing. what does that have to do with -- again, that had to do the witness tampering? >> judge napolitano: it had to do with his remorse. is he remorseful because he did wrong, or is he remorseful that he got caught customer give a guy in a wheelchair, on the verge of crying, making eye contact with you and begging for compassion. does that resonate with you, or do you still sentence him to what you are going to sentence them to you when you woke up this morning? speech you and your impression was that she didn't buy into it, more or less. she also said, to the effect of -- he had said, "i am solely responsible for my wife and all my funds have been taken. everything all the way down to my life insurance." and she said, "everybody who comes to me has family around them." or something to that effect.

>> judge napolitano: we talked about checking boxes. one of the boxes is, to others rely on the defendant for support customer kino's with those boxes are. his lawyers told him. >> melissa: be much to go to catherine herridge because we we crunching the numbers and it looks like that other network, which is where we don't go their numbers, might not have what we have. catherine herridge, the sentence for paul manafort? >> we are crunching the numbers. the number we are coming to now, i am told her my ear, is 80 or 81. just shy of -- let's look here. i'm doing my quick mental arithmetic. seven years -- some of this will run concurrent, so simultaneously, with the time that's already in the eastern district of virginia, on the second count, some of that will also run concurrently based on

the reuters reporting. so the bottom line is that we are looking at about seven years years. >> melissa: six and three quarters is what we are hearing. >> harris: we want to touch on this with judge andrew napolitano. we are trying to figure out how much of that time is concurrent, that you just talked about. that matters here, because that was nearly four years that he got in a virginia court. if there's a major portion of that, six and three quarters years, that he has just gotten that is concurrent -- that's -- >> judge napolitano: it looks to me like she has added between four and five years to the 37 months he is about to serve. he was sentenced to 47 months. time served already is nine months. the automatic reduction of 50%. i don't want to get to into the weeds. >> harris: get into it! you've done this 1,000 times with people. get technical. tell us. >> judge napolitano: it looks

to me as though the bottom line is that he will serve, in addition to the three years from judge ellis and federal court in alexandria, another four to five from judge jackson today. >> melissa: 30 months concurrent. >> judge napolitano: that's not what he wanted. it's considerably more than what he wanted. but it's considerably less then what mueller and company asked for. >> harris: i don't want to miss the point that once you do crunch the numbers, the two sentences are not that all different with the time served and the concurrence. i don't know that that matters all that much, but it's just an interesting point. >> judge napolitano: okay, so, the totals reduced by 15% assuming good behavior. you automatically get that in the federal system. >> harris: everybody gets that? >> judge napolitano: if you engage in good behavior, yes. if you disrupt the prison you are not going to get the good behavior. the reduction. but it appears to me, as i indicated to you -- just quickly doing the math in my head, and catherine might be doing it more

precisely now while we are chatting -- that she has added four to five years to the 37 months he still has to serve from the judge ellis sentencing last week. >> harris: so a man comes to chair dominic courtney wheelchair, he says, "i don't want to be suffering for my wife come i'm so sorry for everything i've done." does that have an impact? >> judge napolitano: sometimes it does. he's not being sentence by robot. the question is, is it believable? and judge direction said it is not believable the reason it's not is because you've gamed the system your entire life and you did it again in scoring. i'm paraphrasing. >> harris: i don't want to cast any doubt in his medical -- we don't know, we are not doctors. for why he is in the wheelchair. and this is so different from what we got a virginia. he reportedly got a lot of feedback, you might want to soften that response. you got another sentencing

coming. >> judge napolitano: in the virginia court, he had a judge that for him, by the grace of god, was very averse to the independent counsel. those guidelines are between 19 and 24 years. he got 47 months. that's the greatest evasion of guidelines of ever seen in my career. that is permitted, the last statute president trump signed into law a couple months ago. the judge would not of been able to defeat without that statute. >> melissa: and your impression of this one? >> judge napolitano: no deviation. this is a much tougher-sentencing judge was a lot more something for the government prosecutors. and a lot less belief in compassion for the defendant. >> harris: you know, morgan, one of the questions being asked today in political circles was whether he would even fix these charges had not been for the mueller investigation going far and wide beyond russia collusion. and we can partly answer that because the judge said this case had nothing to do with russia collusion. >> morgan: we did. something else the judge said that goes to the conversation we

were just having, she said, "mr. manafort, i don't want to belittle or minimize the discomfort of prison for you. it's hard and it went. young and old, rich and poor." i thought that was the board and save it for her to make today. from my perspective it is matter how he was caught. he has pleaded guilty come he's a criminal. it happened through the mueller investigation. i'm happy to see that he was brought to justice today. the bigger question for me, harris, as the people mentioned about a year ago we haven't heard much from. tony podesta, for example. who was also involved. greg craig, vin weber. these were all people who were accused by the mueller team of fingerling failing to register as for agents and being involved in the law practice. i would like to know, are these people also going to be brought to justice? >> harris: and don't miss the point, too, that would be an oppositional political -- at least in tony podesta's case. you're talking about a democrat. leslie marshall, does that matter? >> leslie: it shouldn't, not at all. the law needs to be -- there's a reason the blindfold is on the

justice, we hope. that is because it doesn't matter. again, rich or poor, democrat or republican, elected official, working for somebody who's an elected official. if you broke the law, you go and do your time. if you are caught. i'm glad you mentioned that, because i have that here, too. prison is, "hard and everyone, young and old, rich and poor." but she also said, "your family has the means to sustain themselves in the interim." she said it before the sentencing. we were talking about this in the green room, judge, i thought it was going to be -- i thought it was eight. i thought it was going to be harsher based on some of the foreshadowing with the judge. >> melissa: one of the things i think is so interesting, everybody keeps making the point, "they wouldn't have even looked at the crime if it weren't for the mueller probe. if you have got to work for the president, he would have gotten away with this." every single criminal can say, "i wouldn't

would have gotten away with it, except --" and it's the manner in which you get caught being different for all of them. it doesn't make you any more sympathetic. you still committed the crime! >> judge napolitano: can i tell you what you just said is 100% correct and the terms of the way judges think, and they are actually offended when the defendant says, "i shouldn't have gotten caught eczema" it's irrelevant that you have gotten caught. you only got caught because of disco watergate came about because summit he left a piece of tape on a door. it should map to the court how you got caught. particularly in this case, where he is pleaded guilty and has admitted dominic admitted under oath when he did. >> harris: i want to say, if catherine herridge pops back up, that would be wonderful. catherine, think he paid a new kind of scooted off the screen there because you are working hard to give us more. do we know what happens and where he goes? >> just repeat that last

question? i'm trying to give her some editorial here, as well. to be what i know you're getting some attrition from out there because we can hear the person near you. i'm wondering -- first of all, let's start with breaking down the sentence. and then i want to go to what happens next with manafort. >> okay, so, on the first count -- i don't want to make it too messy, but on the first count it was 60 months. there was 30 months, if you credit or overlap with the time that was given in virginia last week. on the second count, it was 13 months. that was consecutive, so that's in addition. but there is credit for time served, and when you do all the math, you get about seven years. 81 months. i was just speaking with our senior course producer, bill, who was inside the courtroom when the sentence was delivered. he said that paul manafort was in the wheelchair, and he was looking straight ahead along

with his defense team. they didn't seem to interact with each other. very sort of silent, still, straight ahead, looking at the judge. again, is a significant sentence and it comes after a lengthy statement by the judge, just to recap. that she was not satisfied with his acceptance of responsibility. in the sense that she saw a gaming of the system, or a pattern of behavior on the tax fraud. the bank fraud. and then the foreign lobbying violations. she was not satisfied that he had taken responsibility for witness tampering, the shaping of testimony from two witnesses about his foreign lobbying. she also took issue with his team's decision to raise in court today that, in effect, he would not be sitting in the court today or in virginia if it hadn't been for his role in the

trump campaign. that it essentially put a target on his back. this reference, to her -- these were her words -- were inconsistent with a genuine acceptance of responsibility on behalf of manafort. finally, she said something about the russian collusion issue, which is much different from what we heard from the federal judge in virginia last week. in her view, this was an untrue dominic issue that was not tabled, therefore not resolved by the court. the math is a little wonky. it's a kind of moment or i wish i had my old calculator with me, right in front of me. [laughter] >> harris: there's one of the phone but it doesn't work quite the same! >> i'm doing mental arithmetic. it's a lesson for my kids at home with the mental arithmetic. essentially it's 81 months. it's a significant sentence. there are some, if you will, credits or overlaps for sentence last week in virginia. some of it is consecutive. our math is 81 months, so it's

more than seven years. >> harris: catherine, what happens next with manafort? when does he start his prison sentence? what's going on? >> right. i don't want to speculate here, but my understanding is that manafort -- well, we anticipate that he will go back to the detention center in alexandria, virginia. which is where he has been held for the better part of -- i want to say, from my memory, nine months in solitary. there will be a decision by the bureau as to where he will serve out his sentence. they've made a request for prison, as i recall, in maryland. for the sentence to be fulfilled. although that has not been decided. i am corrected by the bureau of prisons at this point. but that was the recommendation from his team. >> harris: that's interesting. we saw judge andrew napolitano along with us, and i don't want to lose you again, catherine, but it want to ask this -- is that a point of privilege to go

to the prison you want, or desirable to get that chance? >> judge napolitano: no, that's a decision based on the availability of space, the level of the crime he committed, the level of care needed for his physical needs and ailments. not all prisons have a level of medical care that others do. it's interesting, i don't know if this happened. but often judges will recommend which person. the bureau of prisons is in the executive branch, so they are not bound by a recommendation from the judicial branch. but they taken into account. i don't know, maybe she could find out from bill mears if judge jackson actually recommended a prison. >> harris: talk directly to her question marco had. >> judge napolitano: are you still with us? >> harris: catherine? sorry. >> judge napolitano: window does make this recommendation , they do so because they are familiar with the facility and with the needs. at this point she knows his needs far better than the bureau of prisons does.

but it's a resource. where is there space, and what requirement does he have? >> melissa: it's interesting you say it falls within the executive branch. does that give the president the power to intercede? >> judge napolitano: can the president move him from one person to another customer theoretically, yes. because the bureau of prisons works for the doj, and they work for the attorney general which is presidential appointee. frankly, i've never heard of it. presidents usually commute, free from the time you've already served, or pardon. but have never heard of a president directly ordering the removal of a person. but he has the authority. >> harris: if we can, i remember the press secretary for the white house spoke about the manafort possibility of a pardon. she was asked about it at the white house press briefing. i will ask your team if we can play a little bit of that, and we can react to that. because that's kind of what i hear you and melissa kind of widely talking about. is there a way for the president to step in? do we have it ready to go?

>> reporter: why hasn't the president ruled out a pardon for paul manafort? >> secretary sanders: the president has made his position on that clear, and he will make a decision when he's ready. >> judge napolitano: here's what happens to paul manafort if he's pardoned -- the guilty plea he entered before judge jackson -- we are now back seven or eight months ago -- was at te pleaded guilty to crimes charged in this indictment. it was also a guilty plea to uncharged state crimes of defrauding banks in states where he did this. newark, new jersey, california, and virginia. i am convinced that this is not just a coincidence. that happened this week. bob mueller was making this guilty plea pardon-proof. meaning, if the president pardons paul manafort, you will be indicted by prosecutors and -- >> harris: you think they would? >> judge napolitano: i think they will. they don't you have to prove the case because they already have been admitting under oath that he committed the crime. >> harris: why would you agree to -- and is asking a basic question, here -- what would you

agree to crimes that you can't even identify on a piece of paper yet because they haven't been charged at? i don't understand. >> judge napolitano: either his lawyers didn't notice that -- >> harris: how could you not notice it? that's their job! >> judge napolitano: you are pleading guilty to defrauding a bank that is insured by both the federal government and a state -- spew a just displayed it to us and we understood it. >> judge napolitano: i have the benefit of hindsight. or they realized it and the ruling to take the chance because they wanted to enter the guilty plea and reduce his maximum exposure before this relatively pro-government judge, judge jackson. in other words, it was the only option available to them. >> harris: wow. is that what you have would har committed he do? >> judge napolitano: i don't have the benefit of knowing what he told his lawyers and what the defenses were, what were available to him. >> harris: but given how this works, which means he's exposed all these other states was to mark >> judge napolitano: i would have recommended some sort of a guilty plea but i would not have pleaded -- allowed him to plead guilty. >> melissa: so you're saying

the pardon wouldn't help him. >> judge napolitano: correct. unless the prosecutors in that state don't prosecute. here we are in new york, where the government has made all kinds of noises about his animosity towards the president, and the people who work for the president. i think this would be the first state to go after manafort. >> morgan: at the attorney general ran on that. >> judge napolitano: yes. they would be the first state to go after him if he walks free. >> harris: i want to bring back catherine herridge, who now -- we want to go to you, we are so thirsty to get your nose that we come to you even when your mic is not on. [laughter] know you will tell us with the color was like inside the courtroom today. >> well, i have our producer, bill mears, to think for that. he was inside the courtroom and he reports that manafort entered wearing a dark navy suit, a red tie. he was in the wheelchair. he had a cane. when the court was called into session by amy berman jackson, manafort rose but then he resumed the position in the wheelchair.

he made in elocution, a statement for the court, where he took responsibility for his crimes. other than that, there didn't appear to be conversation with his lawyers or other statements. a point came when he delivered the sentence, which came to 81 months. our reporting is that manafort looked straight ahead, very sort of flat, almost emotionless. did not engage with his lawyers at that point. though we would also note that during the allocution, his voice was strong and purposeful as he took responsibility, harris. >> harris: real quickly, judge, get in there. >> judge napolitano: catherine, does bill mears know if judge jackson recommended a facility for incarceration? secondly, did she impose a fine on him in addition to the time in jail? >> was a fine imposed?

just one second. no? >> it's million-dollar restitution, which was already imposed last week. so he will pay $6 million restitution. >> bill is reporting an additional $6 million in restitution. my understanding, based on the filings, that was in effect a penalty for failing to live up to his agreement to fully cooperate with the special counsel. his defense lawyers had felt that this money would essentially wipe out his family. and the rest of their savings. on the prison, the judges considering considering the motion from the defense that manafort will serve out his term in cumberland, maryland. she will consider that motion and then make a recommendation. she did not make a recommendation on that point directly today. >> harris: all right. catherine herridge, thank you for those additional notes. judge, think of her asking to get them. we appreciate that, as we do a

full breaking news coverage with an entire show today on the couch. but there is a lot of other news happening. we do want to let you know, with regard to manafort, if his attorney comes to speak we are covering that. we are anticipating that might happen and we will get to a lot more on "outnumbered" on all of the other breaking news end of elements we are following today. stay close. >> tech: at safelite autoglass,

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lori loughlin has been taken into custody in connection with the nationwide bribery scheme. lori loughlin and fellow actress, felicity huffman, among dozens of parents charged. the sprawling investigation dubbed "operation varsity blues." federal prosecutors say wealthy parents would pay bribes to card will not coordinate bogus exam scores in for catholic achievements to help their children get into some of our nation's top universities. watch this. >> this case is about the widening corruption of elite college admissions, to the steady application of wealth, combined with fraud. there can be no separate college admissions system for the wealthy, and i will add that there will not be a separate criminal justice system either. >> melissa: the alleged mastermind of the multimillion dollar scam, william "rick" singer, founder of a for-profit college prep business, pled guilty to charges including racketeering and conspiracy.

we were talking about that conspiracy. all the parents that are involved here. there's been a lot of talk about the actresses, but there is also a private equity investor and a ceo of a social impact fund. which means they are all about going out there and doing good with money, in theory. bill mcglashan is another one who is alleged and is on some of the tapes. he is somebody who invested with bono and his voice in silicon valley but injustices between the classes, this that in the overhang, then he is on tape talking about making his son a punter or a kicker in order to get him into usc, i believe it was in this case. and he says, pretty funny, "the way the world works these days is unbelievable." this is in the indictment. he's on record, recorded saying that. talking about how the world works. he is supposed to be somebody he was out there fighting for social justice.

>> judge napolitano: the indictment was accompanied by about 4 inches of paperwork. which i went through last night. it includes emails, text messages, and wire intercepts of telephone conversations of every single one of the parents. picture the parents around the end of a bicycle wheel, at the end of a spook. in the middle, at the hub, is this guy singer and his crew. who experienced a great increase in wealth. with singer are coaches and college administrators. not everybody around the spoke knows everybody else, but they all know singer in the middle. one of them is the chair of the major wall street law firm. they will not only lose him, he will lose his license and they will lose a lot of clientele who don't want to be involved in this. the fallout, the noncriminal economic and administrative fallout to this, the civil litigation it will come from this. "my kid deserved to get into school and he was bumped by

somebody because your tennis coach was bribed." that six ordinary. thus far the justice department has treated the children and the colleges as victims. some would argue the colleges should have known what was going on. you give a tennis coach the authority to admit somebody, you have to make sure that person is a real tennis player and not being admitted because the coach was bribed. >> leslie: group in boston, massachusetts. i went to public school. i live in southern california. i live among some of the celebrities. i have to tell you, my kids are ten and 11. the conversations that i hear in my kids 'school, even right now, as to what people are doing -- who is writing 7-digit checks just to get a kid into a sixth, seventh, eighth grade middle school, junior high, high school. the level of competitiveness without having the celebrity. when this came down, the first thing i said is, "i'm not surprised." i think this is happening even more. i think this is the tip of the

iceberg, not just in california. >> melissa: this is a big difference -- and some of that was in there -- between "i'm writing a huge check to try and sway favor," versus giving money to a fig charity, taking the tax write off. that money siphoned off, part is given to a bribe. i've been to be coach or someone administering a test, who is changing the answers and changing the score. or is giving them placement on the team of a sport they can't even play. i'm not saying that to make a donation to gear kid in school is good or ethic or whatever else come over there's a big distance between that and lying. >> morgan: but where's the merit of the true athlete of the person with academia who has those good grades? >> harris: i want to challenge that. is there much of a difference between people -- i want to get on the record with this. because it's my understanding that there might not be that much of a difference. if you think your money is going to create access that others can't get, think about a child who is going on merit. who comes from a different type of economic background and is competing with the child whose

parents -- >> judge napolitano: legally, melissa is correct. there is a profound difference between making a charitable donation to a recognized charity, a university, and paying a bribe to somebody to get your child in that university. you're talking about whether there's a moral difference between a parent giving a million dollars to this trickster, singer, versus a million dollars to the school. in both cases, did the child merit the school? specie real quick, want to get a comment in? >> morgan: when you look at money laundering, which is what i did with the treasury department for a long time, this is what happens. there's a lot of legitimate, the legal stuff mixed in. this could be a lot of people and started. >> melissa: we've got to go. details on the billing investigation, black boxes from the latest crash to be sent overseas as new reports reveal u.s. pilots complained about issues with the same model of boeing jet in recent months. canada, the latest country to

ban the plane from its airspace, and a growing number of u.s. lawmakers call for the faa to do the same here. ♪ are you a veteran,

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>> harris: breaking news to get to now, the former campaign manager from the campaign, paul manafort, with sentence moments ago in a federal court. judge andrew napolitano says to watch to see if other municipalities will go after them based on what they've gotten from the new investigation. we understand that manafort's attorney is set to speak. we will bring you news from that as it happens, but this is breaking. new york city has just -- the new york city press curiel team has just indicted paul manafort on mortgage fraud, conspiracy, and other state charges. what judge andrew napolitano was just telling us is there could be four or five other states, including new jersey, californi california, correct? >> judge napolitano: yes, and virginia. states in which the banks are

located that he allegedly defrauded. >> harris: okay. we are starting to see some of that happened with new york city being the first to report the news. it will be interesting to see if his attorney response to this, as well. the news as it happens. this fox news alert, and ethiopian airlines spokesman is saying that black boxes from a doomed boeing jet will be sent overseas for analysis. pressure is growing on the united states airlines and regulators to ground the 737 mao deadly crashes in just five months. some countries have barred the model from even operating in their space, now the dallas morning news is saying that it has found five instances in which u.s. pilots voiced safety concern about the jet's autopilot features months before sunday's deadly crash. 157 people died in that. but the faa, for now, says that all evidence is suggesting that the jet is airworthy. a former investigator is

switching back, asking in an op-ed, "has the aviation world gone mad?" judge, i see a lot of lawsuits in this. what i don't see is pressure, necessarily, on this boeing jet. taking it out of the skies and the united states. do think that will change? >> judge napolitano: i think it will change, because people will be fearful of getting on these debts. you don't always know who the manufacturer of the jet is at the time you get on it, but we all know how to look that up at the time we get the ticket. canada just banned it, great britain banned it, most of europe banned it. i think of the people not only want to be safe in actuality, they want the perception that they are being safe. i don't know how many of these are out there, and i don't know why the faa's being resistant when their sister entities around the world are all banning it. >> harris: real quickly, i mentioned potential lawsuits because if you can document where these pilots were complaining about a situation and now this has happened, people may sue for --

preventive? i'm not sure. >> judge napolitano: unless you've been harmed by a crash, got her big, you don't have a basis for a suit. if you were hungry someone you love was harmed and you are in charge of the estate , it's condemned by the warsaw convention. so the airlines are pretty much protected. >> harris: even the people who died customer for families finding out that the plane we have previous problems? >> judge napolitano: their international caps on the amounts they can receive no matter how they see. the bad part is that there is a cat. the good part is they will get that money. they don't have to prove liability. unless they can show that the airline proceeded in the face of a known danger anyway, than the caps don't apply. spew want to hearing from those pilots would be critical at this point. leslie? >> leslie: we have 35 congressional mandates that have been unanswered with regard to airline safety. we have regulations now, that's one of the reasons i believe we not only don't have a global grounding, but we don't have it in the united states. you have bipartisan support on

this, by the way. for the faa to do its job. we still have an empty seat at the head of the department of transportation. these are all problems. this is something where politics doesn't weigh in on the problem, in addition to mechanical failure. >> harris: just released testimony of former fbi lawyer lisa page raising new questions of the doj's handling of the trump russia investigation. and the hillary clinton email scandal, all of the new concerns ahead. ♪ you.

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>> melissa: potential bombshell revelations after republicans released transcripts of their closed-door interview of former fbi lawyer, lisa page, last summer. the testimony raising new questions over the doj's handling of the trump russia probe and the clinton email investigation. last night, congressman john radcliffe tweeting, that page told him not to charge clinton of gross negligence in the handling of the email scandal. this also calls into question why former fbi director james comey took the unusual step of announcing the decision not to charge hillary clinton in 2016, suggesting it was his decision. but this is telling us it was not his decision.

he was, it looks like, lying. >> judge napolitano: this is such a head scratching. he took so much heat for claiming this when apparently he didn't have to. a couple of basics -- the fbi works for the department of justice, not the other way around. if the department of justice says, "we are not going to charge her with a crime there basically saying to start investigating this. there are five ways to convict under espionage. it's the failure to protect state secrets that been given to you for protection. her personal server -- one of those five ways does not require proving she intended to do it. they only need to prove that she was grossly negligent. the fbi went to the doj and said, "we have evidence of gross negligence." theo doj says, "we think it's a vague and ambiguous and he can get a conviction, so stop pursuing her under that statute." that's what we learned from congressman ratcliff last night. that is radically different from

what james comey said two summers ago. >> melissa: and that's coming from lisa page's testimony. it's not that he is sangha, she said in the testimony. morgan? >> morgan: what i will be looking for today is what senator lindsey graham says about this. he already said to maria bartiromo on fox that is going be looking into the fisa application process. was the letter of the regulars and followed there? i would be very surprised if the senate does not look into this. i think the average american looking at this, a senior official in the fbi says we were ordered by doj not to press charges. it's going to disturb a lot of americans. >> leslie: but the inspector general solace before we did and still said the bias may have been there but he didn't play into the decision. >> melissa: we will see. more "outnumbered" in a moment. ♪ this is not a bed...

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>> melissa: squeezing an even more breaking news right now. >> judge napolitano: as he was leaving the courthouse, man affords lawyer said something i never had before. "i think the judge assured an

incredible hostility toward me and manafort and exhibited a level of calluses i haven't seen in white-collar trials in 15 years." >> melissa: that is no one any good. thanks to our whole couch. we are back at noon eastern tomorrow. here's harris. >> harris: we begin this hour with judgment day for paul manafort. this is "outnumbered overtime," i'm harris faulkner. president trump's former campaign chairman has learned as fate. judge amy berman jackson, sentencing paul manafort to three and a half additional years in prison. that's on top of the time he received in a federal court last week. mean income at 69 years old, men fort will serve about seven years in prison. but democratic senator richard blumenthal says it's not enough. >> paul manafort caught a break today. he defied the law. he tempered with witnesses, he lied to prosecutors. he laundered money. he evaded taxes. he left with