saturday june 22nd i'm jon sot thanks for joining us i'll see you again, tomorrow. ♪ well america i'm mark levin life, liberty and levin how are you professor? >> i'm fine i've known you for 25 years. you're an expert on what they call the swamp which is the administrative state the professor university you know is senior fellow claremont smiewt, you've written extensively and recent book unmasking the state the crisis of american politics in the 21st century. what is the administrative

state? >> administrative state is such a pervasive phenomenon that people think simply as the bureaucracy. but it's really much more pervasive than that because it not only staff is established in the institution, that are created by government but it also has a kind of authority that you could call it rational authority that allows politicians to defer to that authority and reach, relieve them really ofty making the kind of political decisions that they need to make about things like anything law. when congress delegate laws to bureaucracy to longer delivery and no longer doing what law making was intended to do which is public deliberation about how it is that the laws are beginning to be made for the people and that requires

compromise . that's t what public reasoning . and for congress to give that up is -- terrible, terrible thing for a democracy because f then the specialized bodies that use this so-called expert or rational authority to make rules, you have really then no real rule of law that is established by law making. >> let's start then. s with a massive entity -- >> right. state and local level these day, the administrator -- that your point is they are also policymakers lawmakers because all of this power is delegated to them by the legislative brancher or the assembly. and so it comes between we the people and our representatives so if we have this army, this

massive administrative state this swamp -- who makes up this army that is massive administrative state? who are these people? >> well typically welcome the people that are in the bureaucracies are those trained in the universities in certain specialized areas. so that in the areas that the american universe is in the certain way really the keystone of the administrative state almost every major in college is utilized by government in one form or another. because as it takes on more and ermore decision making in the -- in social life of the bureaucracy, of course, those that used to be in civil society are put into the hands of bureaucrats, and what establishes as i said before, their authority is the rational

knowledge that supposedly is supplied by whatever science they're part of. the federal government and state and local government use every kind of science that is established in the university from the hard sciences to social science and even law itself is established as a -- as a form of positivism which is again, scientific so you can see that the real authority behind the at the administration state is science and one form or another. by science, in one form or another but you're mostly talking'r about political sciene behavioral social science even thoughce other sciences are involved in other words the progressives -- ideology, and there's something interesting i haven't thought about that you'retiut putting ot whichh is -- in many ways the bureaucracy is extension of universities and

colleges. >> a that's right, and so -- the kind of may i say -- in many respects and doctrine that takes place in the classroom with tenured professors, most of whom are of left and progressive or worse that permeating our bureaucracy. >> it does. >>bu so where in the constitutin did the framers of the constitution trade establish the authority for this massive bureaucracy? >> there's absolutely no thoart authority where administrative realm in the constitution, every authority that is in the constitution is a political authority so derives either from legislative executive of judicial power. now every government has to have an a administration, obviously. but the -- but the administration that we have now and reason why it is sometimes called rational

administration is not merely carrying out the political will. it's establishing its own authority to carry out the deal with problems that the -- that those who have political authority are no longer dealing with. they in a certain way turned those decisions over to those who have specialized knowledge. >> given the university mindset, given the self-perpetuation of you will first and foremost needs to survive, thrive, expand, devour -- [laughter] it benefits mostly which ideology versus another and which party versus another? >> there's no question that this is all part of the progressive legacy. the progressive legacy -- was to establish really a modern administrative or rational state.

and that meant, of course, then that the problems of society would be solved by expert knowledge. not social institution. it is meant really to replace civil society. these structures -- and in a certain way, that goes that extends all the way down almost to the famine. that every other kind of social organization that once dealt with the problems that are now handled by bureaucracies all of those things have been turned over you might say to profession to expert knowledge. >> now you've used the word i know what you mean but i want to quote experts, professional, rational. that doesn't mean they're truly experts in human nature. it doesn't mean they're truly rational because they can't know everything that's going on, and it doesn't mean they really know what they're doing right these are titles that kind of assign

to themselves. right? >> those are credentials that give them the authority for that. not -- that is not the same as knowledge.s and, of course, in -- in terms of say the american founders, there would have been no substitute for making these moral decisions based on human reason. there's no way that you can delegate that to some other body. and that's why there was no autonomist or independent place for administration. administration was merely the practical way of carrying out the political decisions. soec from their point of view, politics is about thinking about these questions through reason, the moral questions are not -- they're not -- they're not answered by science. those moral questions in order to get scientific authority you had to separate factual and peer

call and value knowledge and for them when they call -- they didn't call it value knowledge, they called it -- these are principles, these are virtues and these are objective forces of authority so you could never separate those two. >> and really there's a clash isn'trk there between the principle and declaration of independence and the principle of undergird our government document the constitution and progressive ideology that progressive agenda, and the massive administrative state which really ballooned up under franklin roosevelt and new deal and a, i mean, existed prior to that but ballooned up and has ballooned up ever since. isn't that right? >> oh, yeah, and i think that greatest growth was really in the grace society period. so >> -- >> lbj from roughly 65 to 75

that's you had political turning point because at that point, congress itself changed the way it did business. it ceased being primarily a law making body and became an administrative oversight body. and that made it much more difficult than ever to reestablish political rule. >> what happened? from the w 60s to 70s? >> what was happening, of course -- under roosevelt one of the reasons administrative state did not expand is because much of roosevelt's tenure was war basically which is a traditional activity of the federal government, right? andr so the expendtures, the kinds of categories of expendtures that were in place say 1945, if you took, look at the budget in any decade prior to 1945 you would see that most

of the national government expenditure had to do with security . national security defense, et cetera, et cetera -- what changed it after roosevelt, of course, the war ended is we started getting new kinds of categories of expendture. social spending -- you started getting help, education, welfare and by the way that was not even started by thee democrats, that was eisenhower that created first hew. that change ad the nature of how it is that congressman could look at spending. before you alwaysnd a had congressman that were concerned about too much spending. there was always a the concern with keeping spending within reasonable limits. but once you could connect dollars to votes, after the -- 50s i don't think it happened -- it wasn't the great expansion wasn't under eisenhower, the great expansion was in the next decade.on

after the '64 election and after '75 you saw a fund mental transmission of the institution, congress reorganized itself in 1970. it started expanding its staff, it started and seesed dealing with the big question of law making and started acting like little executive each offices was oversight, body of a some part of the b executive branch bureaucracy. so there was no place where you could say that thrfsz deliberation on what public good is that's supposed to happen in congress. of course once they broke those, broke the bureaucracy down, what they did, of course, is they have expanded committee sub committees, and gave chairmanships, this is during

the 70s primarily. but extended further. and they gave oversight control over the executive bureaucracies that were of concern to their constituents or the interest. >> when i come back i want to ask you -- who, makes most of the laws of this country? congress or the bureaucracy and who works for whom? don't forget ladies and gentlemen, most weeknights you can watch me on levin tv, e levin tv, you can join us by going to blaze tv.com/mark, blaze tv.com/mark or give us a call at 844-levin df and don't tergt number one book in america, hottest book right now, on freedom of the press. get your copy. we'll be right back. copy. we'll be right back. copy. ♪ we'll be right back. copy.

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four years voted for president of the united states and yet there's this, this thing out there that the people can't touch. that people have no control over. that people don't even know who runs these fare department and senior and civil service there's a civil service to protect them. there's a union public sector to protect them i guess from us. how do you define this? i mean this isn't representative government. it is not, it's not even democracy which you and i would have a difficulty with. what is this? >> i think it is a government now that is organizeed around various interest who have become really petitioners to washington and you talked about lobbyist. if you're well organized at the national level, that doesn't matter whether you're social interest or religious interesting and economic interest, scientific interest,

it doesn't matter. you can have input in washington you can have input in way the way the bureaucratic structures affect the various things that you do if you're an economic interest, you have some ability then to influence bureaucracies that make rules that regulate your industries. is that why since the 1960s you have explosion of lobbying firms? >> of course. yeah. and you've got chamber of commerce you have the afl, ico because all attention is now focused onus washington. an even more so on the bureaucracy. >> right. because the average person out there has no idea who is doing what. >> no.o. and the government works perfectly well for organizeed interest and if you get to your point, if you went to washington before 1964, you would have found no real lobbying in

washington by any of the interest. because i the federal system, ty say it is the state still regulated, if you are a business at work then in california, you lobbied sacramento. new york, albany. when you centralize administration there's only one place you need to lock. and that's o washington, and everybody is there. well this is, this is very interesting. so when you hear people like bernie sanders, or elizabeth warren or others -- go on and on about we need free college tuitions. we need to wipe out college loans. we neede centralized single payr health care, everything more and more government more and more it true thensn't that what you're expanding is not representative of government. you're expanding the bureaucracy because you need more dpghts more offices, more bureaucrats to tell bernie in peoria and

sally in albany how they're going to live their lives. >> yag. there's no way around it. ifw once you establish rational rule more you expand government that's what you're doing expanding their rule.s the real problem of our time is we don't have the ability for people to participate in their own political rule as citizen. i it haso gotten so difficult that citizens don't know they're part of a country. [laughter] you have to tell people that this is the country, there's borders in all of the things that make up a country that make people know that they are part of the electorate of that country and really part of the ---- the people are sovereign under our constitution. they don't know any of that anymore. so for -- in my view what has to happen is, you cannot reconcile rational rule in political rule.

by rational rule, you mean basically master minds -- >> right. national rule telling you what's rational. everything is treated uniformly. >> right. by a formula that's established in one way or another that proports to have some kind of expert knowledge behind. eand a so it -- the problem with that is of course that you turn that kind of decision making over to people who are unaccountable, that as you said the electorate has no access to. you have a very close relationship that develops between those who are regulated, that the interest i mean, whether it is economic or social interest because there's plenty of money that is generated in a country like this and those -- there's a benefit. the reason why people centralizedded and why they become petitioners in washington

is because they can either get subsidies. they can get breaks, tax breaks, there are ways of dealing with -- smot or their competition. sure, sure. so let me ask you this. how does this benefit individual liberty? >> opposite affect it makes it very difficult for people to live lives free lives as individuals as social, as social social citizens in other words in civil society institutions. churches, all kinds of associations that are nonpolitical and nongovernmental. those kinds of associations have been coopted really. >> let me cut to the chase. what you're describing to me or what took from my call is really a soft form of a slow tyranny is

that true? >> that's exactly i'll tell you how i got interested in this. when t i first started writing about this question of what we call bureaucracy, i was interested in it from the point of view what centralized administration is. and he said centralized administration is the form of that democrat societies have to fear . . and the term administrative state is when i first started writing about about it, i always just called it administrative centralization. hopeville material. which that's the form of democratic tyranny. noww, as it came to be by the ed of the the 1980s into the 1990s when i wrote my first that politics of budget control, it was subtitled congress presidency and growth of the administration state. that had become a concept that was beginning to bee used in political science. that's the only reason that i

started using administrative state. i had always called it what i was doing administrative centralization. but that's the app description of it. democratic, professor -- you've written excellent book unmasking administrative state when i come back i want to ask you is there anything we can do about this? we'll bee right back. the doctor's office might mejust for a shot.o but why go back there

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live from america news headquarterses i'm jon scott president trump delays nationwide sweep that was supposed to take place across ten major u.s. cities beginning tomorrow. the last minute decision comes after several democrats including house speaker nancy pelosi asked the president to call it off. in a tweet earlier today the president said in part that he wants to see both parties work out a solution to the asylum and loophole problems at the border if not raids could begin in two weeks. a public plea for information after a devastating collision killed at least 7 people in new hampshire. it happened friday on a rural highway near the town of randolf. ten motorcycles were involve authorities say a pickup truck collided with those cycles. the truck was on fire when emergency crews arrived driver survived but is not in charge i'm jon scott now back to life, liberty, and levin. ♪

professor what you're talking about here is a fundamental reformation how it conducts itself that the last 50 years it really has been from its constitutional responsibility. and investigations oversight, just keep spending and spending borrows and borrowing, but it's aa legislative body. isn't it true, though, that the bureaucracy now is a legislative body? that we have no relationship with the bureaucracy that's what the progressive movement is always been about? talking about we the people when, b in fact, it is about controlling we the people, uniformity, centrality, master minds, claim to have all of the rational answers and so forth. what can be done about this? >> well, i think that's the great problem is how do you get

congress to reinstitute what its central power is. the law making power, because you know, it is always complaining about congress imperial executive or imperial judiciary, but the fundamental power of government is law making. framers understood that the most powerful branch is beginning to be congress. why would a branch of government advocate that power? and that, of course, is the -- the perks that are derived from delegating power to a bureaucracy is to relieve them a responsibility and accountability. let me take a swing at this tell me what you think there might be another reason if you're a person of the left. to support big, the best way to inshrine ideology is to build this, massive fourth branch of

government so when donald trump is collected or conservative or republican is somebody who is not you -- they'll resist this bureaucracy and resist the efforts of a president when it comes to immigration or something of that sort. and more of a place holder from your mentality so next election if you win you can advance your agenda and expand that bureaucracy so in other words you win if you lose an election, you win if you win an election. you support the national popular vote if you one an election. and you support the bureaucracy in unelected judges you lose an election. >> i think that's exactly right there's no great incentive once the -- progressive idea of establishing this administrative state, it was -- it was always a win, win situation. what i would suggest is, congress as a body does not even think of itself as an institution and act as a body

anymore. the firstt requirement is that every member of congress and every -- the leadership of congress has to think in terms of its institutional as well as its constitutional function. they have girch that a up. and that has played into the hands of those who have wanted to have a complete fully developed administrative state. once that has happened then you get what we have. you get members of congress of both parties. right, and that's the great difficult -- there's no insent or anybody in washington who has a grown accustom to how business has conducted in washington over the last 50 years. which, of course, works to the benefit of everyone who is here. and by the way, not just the institutions of government, but i would say all of the knowledge

industry that is established lobbyist, media everything that's in the washington bubble. >>yi right, right, including i'l say it liberal and conservative think tanks. >> let me ask you this. is this one of the reasons it is not the primary reason -- why they're all piling on donald trump, he's not one of them. they, they are entrenched they are an establishment. they may be different parties different ideology but they're the same mindset when it comes to protecting what they believe is theirs, their power. >> i think, i think trump, i thought from the very beginning whenr. i saw trump was running said this guy -- is a danger. to them to this establishment to the whole of the washington establishment of all stripes. partly because he's not an academic. he's not an intellectual. he doesn't have expertise in those areas where you define success ab tractly. from a government perspective.

>> right. right and from point of view of -- what your theoretical argument is, or your abstract idea is solving a particular problem. er somebody like trump you measure success by outcome whether this works or doesn't work. then that's not the way washington has worked. for decades -- i mean you accept the outcome of whoever has thehe power to make the decisions. because the people that are stand behind that power are those who have supposed knowledge. they migrate concern in recent years that it is not clear to me that organize knowledge or so-called rational knowledge is actuallyge genuine knowledge abt politics. i think, in fact, it is made it harder to understand politics. iby these abstractions that they've created, that has made it very difficult to understand

politics, common sense -- from a practical point of view, which is the way the american founders qowld have -- >> you like trump. i don't know him at all a but i like what he was't doing. >> i thought right from the beginning -- that if he did, if he does what he looked like he was doing, he would be the first person to be political since reagan. political in the positive sense. political in the sense of trying to get people to participate many their own government. not the people who are the class that participate. what we have right now is americans are spectators to politics. but whether you're anybody in washington participates in a certain way in public life, not, you know, they don't make all of the great decisions, but they're not spectators the way american citizens are. who have no say, who don't -- who are not asked their opinions

about things. you seem to be saying that president trump is almost attempting to break the strangle hold of this establishment whether it be in the media, the democratic party, the republican party the bureaucracy, and through the way he manages to the way he talks through things he wants to do. which is why the kind of all ganging up on him. is that right? >> no, that's right and think about it when he looks at politics from the point of view of a citizen. from the point of view of what the common good the public good is, and he thinks and i think he -- he's right in thinking this. that so many in washington refused to take the interest of the country first, the public, yoim your office when you're a member of any governmental entity that'sf created under our

constitution, you have an office that's obligated to the sovereign which is people of this country. >> right. you don't have a right to go and when you get in office a to do whatever you feel like doing. andd that's precisely what they all do thinking that i'll do what i feel like doing. >> and he says no you won't. >> correct. he tries to enforce that. we'll be right back. geico makes it easy to get help when you need it.

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he's sort of a reagan in terms of communication, in fact, they have attacked him because of form of communication and twitter which gets around them. they want him out because he's crypt night to them right? >> pointing out soft spots right they can't get anything done in congress bureaucracy is out of control he wants to reign in courts he recognizes national sovereignty andments to strong defense to protect country these are all things that this -- establishment has undermined over decades. >> that's right, and i think one of the reasons he had to address the t american people directly t through the media -- is because the media is also an important part of the washington establishment. it establishes how it is that people know what's going on in washington. in other words, it's in a sense -- it isn in charge of the national

conversation. and -- >>how's it doing? >> from their point of view, perpetuating administrative state it is doing well because it does not allow people like trump to have a voice. so he had to in a certain way delegitimize media right from the start. he knew i don't know if he knew this instinctively but he knew that public opinion is crucial in a democracy. and public opinion is in the hands of the expert class. >> yeah. and so in trying to address the american people with, he has to appeal to them as a whole. and he has to appeal to them on the basis of a good of the whole. so he doesn't -- he even did not even run in the way have been running in last 30

or 40 years by breaking down the electoratet into selective groups. he ran try aring to get everyone to vote for him. and yet they tried to -- tried to portray him as if he was divided whereas he's first modern president trying to unite the country. >> now that's a very interesting point. because they try and paint him as a the great divider that when you listen to these candidates on the left and democrat party running, they break us down in economic groups, racial groups, they base on our genitalia young or old elderly person and trump doesn't see the world that way. >> no, he doesn't and, of course, only way a liberal kind of administrative state is can exist is because there's no way of establishing either the rule of law or a common good when you

have broken down government the it is. so when you have to do is you have to make groups establish, you have to establish morality in group. the whole theory for thousands of years about justices was about establishing a common good there could be no way of establishing a partial good that's's factionless. and yet what is all of these groups? but establishing a -- trying to establish a kind of moral authority for faction. that's -- which is exactly what the founders -- theory for us without a biewx bureaucracy and they have federalism and all of these different things going on to check against centralized power and factual power the mobs.

>> right. including, of course, making thise separation of powers work. that's's the other thing that's been destroyed the administrative state. >>oy don't forget ladies and gentlemen almost every weeknight levin tv sign up by calling us at 844 levin tv 844-levin tv or blaze tv.com/mark blaze tv.com/mark and don't forget number one book in america, "on freedom of the press" thanks to you. read this this book is written for you. we'll be right back. -we bought a house in a neighborhood with a lot of other young couples. then we noticed something...strange. oh, could you, uh, make me a burger? -poof -- you're a burger. [ laughter ] -everyone acts like their parents. -you have a tattoo. -yes. -fun. do you not work? -so, what kind of mower you got, seth? -i don't know. some kid comes over. we pay him to do it.

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professor marini this is your great book unmasking administrative state the crisis of american politics in the 21st century. i don't do book shows here. but this is very important very relevant to what's going on today. if one of these democrats gets elected president of the united states, keeps talking about expanding government on behalf of the people. they're always expanding the unelected parts of government on behalf of the people undermining role under congress -- giving more and more power to

unelected bureaucrats growing the bureaucracy the people are less in touch request their government than ever before, aren't theyov pushing a lie a deception not just the economics of it. health care for all, and all of the rest. but they're fun mentally handling -- >> i think they are undermining what self-government is. i mean, our constitution was that constitution that abled people to govern themselves and to participate in the government of others. and, of course, that meant you had to capable of participatingn political life, and a what you've seen is slowly removing people from participation and political life, and by giving them more things by giving them more supposedly whatever it is

that entices them to abandon their own desire for self-government t or freedom -- in doing that, all you're doing is you're imposing, of course, the form of soft that he was talking about. >> isn't also the fact that these decisions are more and more centralized yet itself is you ubiquitous isn't that in driving this society. it is one thing if you're making decisions and on life and own community but to have a relative handful of people empowered by the massive bureaucracy controlling this massive bureaucracy, telling people what to do and how to do it to do it isn't that in part creating this division because there's nowhere to let i off steam there's nowhe to go under iron fist. >> that's right and i think that the problem here is -- in principle when you look at it in way you just described it

about -- when you take thingses and abstract them you universalized it the future made -- one of the great difficulties of the future, will be to prevent globalization from establishing uniform global bureaucracy. the nation state itself is a threat to this kind of rationalization. >> international organizations led by god knows who imposing their will on a society so you have now bypassed whole constitutional contract. like on climate change deals. or deals of that sort. we'll be right back. customize my insurance. and as a fitness junkie, i customize everything, like my bike, and my calves. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ bill's back needed a afvacation from his vacation. an amusement park...

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mark: you know, professor, you said donald trump really is unique in modern history, how he

approached this federal leviathan. do you see us pushing our way back towards constitutional republicanism or closer and closer to this soft tyranny. >> if you can mobilize a political sentiment in terms of getting people to understand the extent to which they have been deprived of their own ability to participate in political life, you can't stop that once it becomes apparent will people. mark: it's a new reformation. >> the problem before was there was no way the american people could participate in tonight cal life because they had no spokesman at the center. the president is a spokesman, but he's just the start.f i said from the beginning if trump succeed, it will take a

long time. it took a hundred years to build. mark: see you next time on "life, liberty & levin." [♪] jesse: welcome to. "watters' world," i'm jesse watters. president trump kicking off his 2020 reelection bid in orlando. the central theme was restoring power to the people. here is how the president framed it. president trump: together we stared down a corrupted, broken political establishment and restored government of, by and for the people. we did not merely transfer power from one party to another, but we transferred power back to you the proud