until 1870. and not a federal paid holiday until 1941. this traditionally marked by large fireworks displays all across the country, those can be viewed as giant candles in the sky for america's big birthday. >> alicia: absolutely. happy fourth. "outnumbered" starts right now. ♪ >> harris: president trump is doubling down on his america first message as he steps up events this summer. since officially launching his 2020 reelection bid to a packed house at orlando's amway center last month. the president is hoping to defy the washington establishment again, and win a second term. but there are big questions over whether the president's unconventional campaign style will work again. happy july 4th, and thank you for joining us on our nation's birthday. woohoo! this is "outnumbered." i'm harris faulkner. i want dance anymore. [laughter] here is melissa francis.

and "fox nation" host, tomi lahren. fox news contributor, jessica tarlov. in the center seat, what? tom shillue! fox news contributor, and he's "outnumbered." >> tom: once again. and it's good to be "outnumbered." >> harris: you are so independent on this independence day! >> tom: i am. you never know what i'm going to say! >> melissa: that's terrifying! [laughter] >> harris: we shall see! happy everything. tomi, great to see you! >> tomi: good to be on the east coast! >> harris: i can't wait for the commercials where we can catch up. >> tomi: i enjoy being here and your humidity. [laughter] >> harris: your hair is perfection! >> tomi: i just can't move and we are good. it's good to be on your coast. >> harris: all right, let's get to it. the president sounding themes similar to what we heard in his 2016 campaign, calling out his political enemies like hillary clinton while also leaning heavily on an economic and border security message. the president is also looking to contrast his conservative

populist agenda with that of democrats. watch. >> our radical democrat opponents are driven by hatred, prejudice, and rage. they want to destroy you, and they want to destroy our country as we know it. not acceptable. it's not going to happen. democrats want to splinter us into factions and tribes. they want us divided. not going to happen to the republicans anymore. as we fight to make life better for all americans, the democrat party has become more radical, more dangerous, and more unhinged than at any point in the modern history of our country. a vote for any democrat in 2020 is a vote for the rise of radical socialism, and the destruction of the american dream. >> harris: but -- and there's always a but -- "washington post" columnist henry olson says pulling the base, or to the base, is a

losing strategy. he wrote this. "trump's own 2016 victory points to persuasion, not turn out, as the key. the president will need to persuade some of the millions of reluctant 2016 trump voters who backed democratic candidates in 2018 in the midterms to return to his favor. in 2016 he effectively persuaded them that hillary clinton was worse than he was. even though these voters disliked both. if you can't change these voters' image of him, he needs o run a similar campaign that args more boring than never trumper." that got a "hmm" from one of our cohosts! a recent fox news poll macros voters are no more enthusiastic about president trump's reelection than they were about his reelection in 2016. those who would be enthusiastic or pleased taking up 6%, and those who do would be displeas, 6%. i'm not sure what they are trying to save it. anyway, we will come to

tom shillue. how can you be both ways? some people need to be persuaded but there is a ticked up in the number of people enthusiastic to vote for the president again. >> tom: the economy is going great. he will stress the economy and talk about the border. those are to to huge issues that will be strengthened strength to him. i think he's in a better position to do it because now he's got the presidency. the question before was always, "okay, i kind of like what he's doing, he's unconventional, but is he presidential? can be really like this guy?" now that he's there, he has redefined the presidency. all the stuff of "can we make in the president?" that ship has sailed. we don't need convincing that area, and i think he was baked in with her. most of the country -- or let's say half, jessica -- they didn't like her anyway. he didn't have to do much selling with that. he will be able to make a of whoever he's running against and a better way than hillary. >> harris: from tom, to tomi.

>> tomi: i think voters are absolutely enthusiastic about 2020, and the more the mainstream media beats on this president, the more exciting we become to vote for him yet agai. and the elitists on both coasts are going to save the democrat is going to win, that this country is never trump. they said that in 2016 and they were wrong. as tom said, we have a presidency to look at and say, "no, all the things he said he was going to do, he did." with the exception of the wall, which is working on every single day. if you could get some help from the democrats and some of the rhinos within his own party to move on that, he would fulfill that promise as well. >> harris: ironically he's getting more help from mexico right now, because recent reporting of 15,000 troops being sent to the border with us and mexico to try and stem the tide of people coming through, whether they are seeking asylum or otherwise. >> jessica: mexico has been a big help, no doubt a boon for the president. it's good for democrats, we obviously need to continue to address the situation on the

border, which is quite died. he has a difficult tightrope act to watch. over 60% of americans think the economy is going well but only 30% are giving him credit for it. the question is always, are you better off now than you were four years ago? while people may feel like they have a bit more money in their pockets, they are not necessarily so seeing that with president trump or the g.o.p. tax cut. you have people saying that, middle and lower income americans thinking they didn't get a text that when they objectively did. we also have to remember that hillary clinton won on the issue of the economy by eight points in 2016. the president won and immigration campaign. i don't know if he can pull that off right now with what's going on with the border and consider what happened in 2018, when a number of people who voted for him came out for democrats and the enthusiasm right now is tilted to our side. i don't know who will be the candidate and i don't know where we are going to go for that, but the president does have a tough road ahead of him. >> melissa: i actually disagree with that because i

think what he won on was the deplorables. he hit that note again when he kicked off his campaign, when he said, "they want to take away your voice and your vote." it's this idea that you are not smart enough to make decisions for yourself. it's the intellectual and moral superiority of the elitists. we in washington and we who have ruled forever no better for what's good for you and your family then you know for yourself, and that was really, i think, what he tapped into this time around. when hillary clinton stepped out and said the deplorable thing, that's what sealed the deal. is this idea that -- so when he says, "they want to take away your voice and your vote," that speaks to impeachment. he sort of rips the plastic off what it means to be president, to your point. before people were like, "i like this idea of someone not talking down to me, who is real, who is authentic, but i don't know how that's going to work out." well, the world hasn't exploded. he's in office, a lot of people

are unhappy with what he did, a lot of people who voted for them are happy. it's not like this type of person can't be president. we've gone there, we are never going back. >> harris: actually, for democrats, the world has exploded. you've got all these questions now, tom, and you hear it. jessica comey said here on the couch. "walk and chew gum at the same time," yes, they can. really and truly, we haven't seen that producing this propensity for had been, more investigations, that opens the door for president trump because he has said all along, "they are hunting me." >> tom: "they are blocking anything i want to do." that's another good message. i think the tone in the country, the idea -- people say, "i like the president, but some of those tweets and the insults, sometimes he takes it too far." the mistake is the democrats, they are just as on presidential as the president. >> harris: can you tell me, what is presidential in this day and age? how is that oppositional two --

if it is, critics say it is -- america first? >> tomi: to me what's presidential is getting things done in keeping your promises. this is the only president who has kept his promises and been maligned and attacked for doing what he said he was going to do. he would continue if it wasn't for democrats blocking him at every turn. they had all their bets on the mueller investigation, they will continue without -- >> harris: we will hear from him july 17th. that'll be interesting. >> tomi: the american people are so sick and tired of that. they want to do something about immigration, to continue the progress on the economy and jobs. so sick of the mueller investigation. it doesn't impact the forgotten american, as you talked about. >> jessica: that's not all we are focusing on. he promised things like a new health care plan. there is no plan, they've never delivered on that. as i said, the american public doesn't think they got a tax cut. they don't credit him with the economy. >> harris: so i don't democrats stop in and fill in some of the gaps they say exist? >> jessica: they pass

literally and constantly. his approval rating -- >> melissa: but it doesn't come into law because it just goes through the house. paul ryan never got credit for that. anyway, and recent fox news poll's, these taken before the debate last week revealing what democrats are looking for in a 2020 presidential nominee. overall, democratic primary voters are split when choosing between a candidate with high ethical standards at 52%, and one who can defeat the president, at 45%. democratic primary voters also prefer, by a huge margin -- 72% -- that their nominee provides, reliable leadership rather than a bold, new agenda. tomi, that's an interesting one to me. they want study rather than bold and new. it seems like old and new is what gets all the oxygen on the left, but maybe that's the media's fault. maybe that's how people actually want. >> tomi: no, that's why i think people are excited about joe biden, because they think is

the moderate choice. the antidote to donald trump. but is he going to excite people to get out to the polls? i don't think so. and the democrats are running and identity politics campaign, so it's whoever will be the best at that who will be probably the front runner and nominee. joe biden is not good at that. so i think they will have a real difficult time picking there nominee. >> melissa: jessica? >> jessica: it'll be difficult picking a nominee. we have 25 candidates. at least ten of them -- >> harris: you think they are all equal and qualified? you should be able to push some aside. >> jessica: i think we will in a matter of time. obviously we have the debates, we will see how that goes moving forward. but i'm saying there are a lot of options for us now. i think that poll is extreme important, the steady leadership. he is moderate based on his career in the policies he's putting forward. >> harris: what about john delaney? >> jessica: he's moderate, as will prove his name i.d. is obviously not aside. >> tomi: will get people to come out of the polls? >> jessica: what's important is the question of electability and the focus on defeating donald trump. people will come to the polls to

defeat donald trump read whether you love joe biden or lukewarm about him -- >> harris: that's what they said last time and it didn't work out that way. >> melissa: to jessica's point, i want to bring up this -- more important than deciding a primary vote, candidates who would unite all americans, 74%, that is. or fight the extreme right wing, 23%. that kind of speaks to what you are saying, because it sort of a uniter. some of you can get elected. >> jessica: joe biden from day one has been fighting a campaign against donald trump, not against republicans, not against independent play or less, not republicans or hopefully former donald trump supporters. he is focused on him because of that. americans like the message of unity, they like to hear him say, "john mccain was one of my best friends. i got things done with john mccain." >> tom: i agree with jessica in that you only need that little slice. the smartest thing mitt romney ever said in the last campaign was the thing he got in trouble for, the 47% thing.

"you don't have to worry about those because you're not going to get them." it's a little slice. i was telling you this last night, jessica. i have this feeling that the one thing donald trump has to worry about is that small percentage of the country that is just sick of all the noise. if they can be convinced by somebody that they can make that noise go away -- i don't know if biden can do that -- they might just say -- what do you think? >> melissa: i disagree because i think what turns all these elections recently is passion. so you don't vote on, "i want the noise to go down." that is somebody who doesn't show up to vote. >> tom: like 5%? to be when i think you also don't vote when things are great. you do need something to kind of fight for. >> tom: right, which is why he need something more than the economy. >> harris: it's interesting what jessica was saying, that tight rope. 60% think the economy is good, 30 percent don't give the president credit. that actually is on the media. when you see him hitting the media, the number's coming out that look good for the administration.

jobs, whatever it is. and you don't see it on every network, that is how it plays against him. then my question is, do you hit the media on that and call them bad? or is there another way to handle it? >> tom: i mean, he will tip down not keep hitting the media on every angle. [laughs] >> melissa: i think it'll work because there was a day when people in america didn't realize that the evening news was written by people who were biased and didn't know it. and they thought that street news was truly street. they've been woken up to the fact that everybody who pays attention as an opinion. if you don't have one, why are you doing it? and they are not able to keep that out of their news. so i think he has woken up america to the fact that you have to think about the person delivering the news no matter what channel you're watching. all right, we've heard it before -- the bigger the better. but when it comes to people's homes, space doesn't always make it a happier place. plus, growing wages, more jobs, strong market. the president set to make the economy a centerpiece of his

2020 campaign. what americans think of the economy now. we were just talking about this. we will get deeper. and what it will mean for both parties at the ballot box. ♪ >> the dow is up. looks like it could be an 80-year high. it's on track for an 80-year high. and the stock market is up. it's a 50-year high. i'm sure you're very happy about that, right? ♪ this is the couple who wanted to get away who used expedia to book the vacation rental that led to the ride ♪ which took them to the place where they discovered that sometimes a little down time can lift you right up. ♪

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our country is now thriving, prospering, and booming. frankly, it is soaring to incredible new heights. our economy is the envy of the world. perhaps the greatest economy we've had in the history of our country. the days of stealing american jobs and american companies, american ideas and wealth, those days are over. >> harris: president trump touting the strength, obviously, of the economy during his 2020 reelection launched. this week marks ten straight years of economic expansion, officially becoming the longest stretch in american history. the labor bureau we will release the june jobs report tomorrow, and while the month of may only saw 75,000 new jobs -- we below expectations -- the unappointment rate held steady at 3.6%. the lowest in nearly 50 years. we just continue to rise and may, as well. the average hourly earnings

climbing to $9.40. the strongest they have been on record for nonmanagement worker workers. $10.92 for all workers, the second highest on record. meanwhile, he knew fox news poll mack says 67% of respondents feel strongly or somewhat optimistic about the economy, while only 37% are strongly or somewhat pessimistic. in that same poll, we dig deeper. a per loudly a 48% feel the trump administration policy benefits people with more money. is there a disconnect there? >> melissa: there is. number one, i always wonder about the polls because i don't know who they are asking, so i have a hard time putting a lot of weight in that. i would say that the biggest place where the president has made people feel it is turning the obama administration, the divide between rich and poor grew dramatically. the rich got richer, the poor got poorer. median income fell. under this president we seen

wages rise faster, for those of the lower end of the economic scale, and in the middle you're talking about lobbying and mining, the service industry. not people who are making minimum wage. it's not about the $15, its people and the whole bottom half. there wages rose. and this is something that people have felt. the st. louis fed reporting for the obama recovery, this is the worst recovery from a recession ever. generally have this b-shaped recovery. one thing's style, the jet fuel back. we didn't see that. it's a lack of relation. we don't have enough people to fill all the jobs that we have out there. >> harris: there's a training gap, that's another part of the conversation. it's something we will have to get to. tomi? >> tomi: i think you hit the nail on the head. businesses also have confidence in this president. many factors, having confidence in this president. by taking away some of that red tape, and deregulating, that lowers the barriers to entry for small business owners, too.

which makes them more optimistic and makes them want to hire more people. it makes them feel like they can sustain it for a longer period of time. people are excited right now. the reason that it get donald trump credit for that is because the democrats are still trying to convince people that it's a carryover from barack obama. funny how that works, it's always president bush's fault for all the woes and the obama administration, and we are coming back and it's obama who can take credit for that? no matter which way you cut it, obama was the anointed one and he could do no wrong for democrats. >> jessica: i don't feel that way. i'm a big fan of him, but he did if he the wrong things. a few things -- one, i'm a big believer in polls. they capture a snapshot in time. at the moment, they aren't giving him credit for the economy and they are feeling about people in the upper echelon, the richest, and the corporations, they are the one getting the big breaks. that's why it's a conversation. he mentioned john doing it before. raising the corporate tax rate, not as much as other democrats that are running want to do, but

upping that four or five points from where the cut went down to. a couple things that are important -- it's really hard for someone to defeat an incumbent president. it doesn't happen very often. that's in the back of everyone's mind, certainly someone who works in consulting. i know kind of an uphill battle this is. the economic indicators, disconnecting it from -- >> harris: you also haven't experienced it. although this movement of impeachment against bill clinton was something that helped him -- "i can still get things and against all odds!" that image he tried to portray and was successful at. he also had history on his side being an incumbent. >> jessica: absolutely. and he had a great economy. >> harris: things are going on for him and he was still an incumbent. that point is that history is almost impossible to break. not impossible, but -- >> jessica: it's very difficult for the circumstances right now, democrats have a lot to be hopeful about. >> harris: so it's a message

against? >> jessica: of the messages about preventing or helping to fix income inequality. you say it's an obama problem. we've had growth and income inequality for generations now. the rich have been getting richer and the poor have been getting poorer. that's not an obama problem, it's an american problem. >> melissa: i'm coding them off from the fed. if you look at the statistics from the bureau of labor statistics, from the social security department, from the irs, that gap has closed under president trump. you can talk about how you feel, but you can talk about the actual numbers of money, of what's happened pray that flies in the face of what you're saying. >> harris: i want to get tom into the conversation. >> tom: it's different for different democrats. i was just looking at that wall of democrats we had up there. when we shall all the candidates. joe biden is going to be running on the obama record, and so the strong economy is a huge negative for biden. but for people -- >> melissa: then he tries to claim it for himself. so which one do you want? [laughs] >> tom: he will have trouble with that. you know who loves the strong

economy? elizabeth warren and bernie sanders. they can save the economy is strong, the rich are so rich, it's time to pay for all the programs. for those two, the more it goes, the more the economy helps them. >> harris: when you look at the messaging, tomi, we talked about this before. the president can talk more about the economy. his surrogates can talk about the economy. what really wins that message? 's of the kind of stuff he does when he brings real americans into the oval office? >> tomi: it's a forgotten american, the silent majority. the people in the middle of the country who felt ignored for so long. >> harris: does he go to them or bring them in? >> tomi: all he has to do is go on twitter or on tv, go to a rally and speak, and obviously it will be streamed everywhere and we hear. the middle of the country, places like where i come from, i know that the farmers are getting hit right now. but the farmers, the ranchers, the coal workers, people who feel their jobs were in

jeopardy. quite honestly, their jobs were attacked by the previous administration. if they feel they can be proud of what they do, if they are a forgotten american, they can come back. >> jessica: what happened in 2018? we had midterm elections were everybody -- come on, we -- >> harris: we will revisit when you can. probably not this hour. [laughs] would love to. president trump looking to paint democrats as the party of open borders, as he once again seizes on the immigration issue in the 2020 campaign. a new fox news poll shows many voters see the trump administration as having gone too far on border enforcement. is that really the case? and 2020 democrats pushing massive taxpayer-funded spending plans to address student loan debt, climate change, health care, among other issues. will any of it help them draw in voters, or lead to a deficit of disaster? ♪

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unfortunately, it can't do anything about that. now that you know the truth... are you in good hands? ♪ >> the border would be so beautiful, but the democrats just won't do it. but maybe now they will, because there's no question we have a national emergency. they said that in the last caravan they had a hundreds of people who commit crimes trying to come into our country. were not letting them. and now mexico is bringing them back. >> melissa: president trump has been hammering democrats and supporting open borders as he embarks on his reelection fight. democrats heading back on the president, both those in congress and those making a bid for the white house. >> and treat people with

compassion and with common sense, instead of cruelty. >> round up millions of people. one is too many. this is not america. this is not who we are. we will not tolerate this disrespect of splitting up families. >> we should immediately live the dream reason, period. we should move in a direction to make sure there's a path to citizenship for the 11 million people who are here. >> one thing he says one thing, one day he says the next. he's not solving the crisis, he's making it worse. >> melissa: in the meantime, a new fox news poll shows americans split when it comes to the president's position. half of voters, 50%, save the administration has gone too far on immigration enforcement. more than double the 24% who say he hasn't gone far enough. only 21% of the administration's enforcement is just about right. tom, to me there's a lot of

irony in this issue because you look at the crisis at the border, now everyone finally agrees that there is a crisis there. it is congress who has the power to fix it, , and both republicas and democrats in congress have not fixed this problem for a long time. but when you see conditions, the president is the one is blamed because it's perceived he's in charge. when you drill down to the facts, i don't know how much he could do at this point without congress acting. >> tom: i don't think those numbers are that bad. 50% think that he has gone too far? but 46% not far enough or just right. with the kind of press he's given, with the press going 20 were seven with the kids in cages story, i think those numbers are great. all this means is everyone knows donald trump is strong on the border and the democrats were saying for the longest time -- they are all on record, every candidate, as saying "manufactured crisis." they know it's not true. >> melissa: to be clear, we

are not talking about kids in cages. there's a huge crisis. when you go down and look at all the pictures that we've seen, this is not acceptable conditions. >> harris: well, some of those detention centers have been compared to kids in cages. when you talk about -- >> jessica: that's an accurate -- >> harris: in 2014. >> jessica: no, that picture came from the obama administration. the issue is the policy. president obama never had a policy of separating families. >> harris: how is that different? speaker that was something happening in those border facilities, which is shameful. >> tomi: have you been there, jessica? because i have. have you spent any time with our border bushel agents? i will not let you talk about them like that. >> jessica: i'm not talking like that. they serve this country honorably. the zero-tolerance policies discussing, it is shameful. no toothbrushes, dirty onesies, teenagers taking care of babies. >> tomi: i want to cling to

you that everything is done there, the reason they have two separate some of those families -- first of all, zero tolerance was put in place to say, "don't come here." >> jessica: by the time of initiation, right? site, tomi pray that the term policy. >> melissa: guys, guys... let's pause for once i can hear. i think we all agree there's a christen on the board. there are a lot of flaws in our policy. jessica, i would ask you, the problem is that when you look at the detention facility, it's democrats who want the children released into the interior. i don't know who they are going to, and that it's a safe place to go. i don't know that they are going to traffickers. >> harris: the people that they are going to in the united states. >> melissa: i don't want them there in those terrible conditions, but i also don't want to release them to somebody who i don't know. >> harris: i want to go back to one thing you're saying, tomi. in all fairness, you need to get your point out about the people tasked with taking care of these

kids. go ahead and make it. >> tomi: these border patrol agents are sometimes the only caregiver that some of these children see. i have seen border patrol agents go rescue 4-year-old toddlers who have been left in the middle of a desert in 115 degrees in tucson, arizona, by their smuggler or their so-called parent, left out there because they were no longer beneficial. the smuggler already got their money off of them. i've watched those agents hike several miles in the desert to go see people on a daily basis. to demonize these people and say they don't care about families -- >> melissa: in fairness, that's not what jessica was doing. >> harris: jessica, what do you want to see happen at this point? melissa has said -- and it's true -- everybody sees this as a crisis. although i argue the reporting has been there for months, even from "the washington post" and "the new york times." >> jessica: absolutely. it's heartening to see that at least in the house in the senate there were big funding bills that had humanitarian aid. to fix the asylum system, we need more judges down there right now. i don't want any child release into the arms of someone who

wants to do them harm or who is not related to them or sanctioned in some way. but it took that story coming out, with the reporters on the lawyers who went down to the detention center, to spark -- first of all, the head of cpp to resign, to get someone new in there. who, by the way, has been for ice reads that the president threatened a couple weekends ago. it's disheartening, it is difficult. we need to fix it. i'm not sure we will get comprehensive immigration reform done. i know that all eyes are on the border right now, and that at least at least is heartening. >> harris: if actual lawmakers from your party were on the border right now... >> jessica: actually, elizabeth warren went down there. buy beto has been there. >> harris: and they are coming up with ideas to fix it? >> jessica: they have put out ideas before. just because there's a difference between the house in the senate doesn't mean democrats don't care. >> harris: no one is saying

you don't care. i'm just saying -- >> jessica: you just said he would like to see them go to the board. they've gone to the border. they put out policy. we have to go now. questions looming over some 2020 democrats' liberal spending proposals with huge price tags. the candidates sinew looking to one up each other with big-ticket policy ideas. jay inslee's attack on climate change would cause stomach cost trillions of dollars over the next decade. elizabeth warren supports free public college and to a recent student loan debt, estimated to cost more than a chilling dollars. but senator bernie sanders out giving her with his plan to erase all college tuition debt. that is $2.2 trillion, which he promises to pay for with a tax on wall street. and sanders 'school of medicare for all, estimated to run around $32 trillion. then there are some relative bargains. senator kamala harris' plan to spend $315 billion over ten years to raise pay for teachers, and senator cory booker aiming to make rent more affordable for housing credits, and more than

$134 billion annually. president trump is calling out democrats' move to embrace far left policies. watch. >> democrats are pushing a cynical and destructive agenda of radicalism. the democrats are now advancing an extreme $100 trillion government takeover, called the green new deal. do you want to see those 401(k)s in all your stocks and the things that -- do you want to see them deflate? but a good socialist in this position! the democrats are pushing socialist government-run health care that bans private health insurance for 180 million americans. mack socialism is not a good thing, you're right. >> jessica: okay. we heard from the president, and if we go back to the a block when we talked about that op-ed in "the washington post," that the president might have to make the campaign slogan "never socialist" instead of america

first. do you think democrats are going to be hurt by these big-ticket proposals? >> tom: yes. i don't think you need to make it a slogan. he can have america first and he can also remind everyone that socialism is bad. i do think they are going too far to the left. the economy is strong. it's turning on the democrats. there's huge portion of democrats -- and you are not one of them, i think you are a centrist democrat, if i'm right, jessica. >> jessica: you are. >> tom: there's a huge portion of your party that gets turned on by these ideas. that's why they love elizabeth warren and bernie. >> jessica: but it's not just democrats that get turned on by it. elizabeth warren's proposal, for instance, our popular amongst all americans because she's addressing income inequality, student debt, things like that. do you think democrats are doing a decent job explaining them and dealing with a price tag issue? you think voters will care about that at the polling booth? >> melissa: i don't think they do a good job dealing with the price tag issue because they make up math or they don't do the math.

but i don't think buster may consume a lot of math, so i don't think that ends up being a huge problem. i think a lot of people realize that when you hear something is free, they know nothing is in e is free because it expands that. and of the taxpayers will foot the bill. when they talk about companies paying for it, companies get rich, walmart employs a bunch of people. they have shareholders, teachers have that stock, their pension. they are not inanimate evil objects out there. they are suspicious about the free stuff. the one that really resonates is the student debt. we have to attack that problem at the university level. that's who the villain is there, the university sucking up all the money, charging so much and calling themselves nonprofit. >> jessica: tomi, what do you think about the criticism that republicans should be getting in the scheme a little bit and talking about these issues? student debt -- republicans and democrats both get educated. to be five right, that's an issue that i'm glad you brought

up. as far as what i believe conservative thought -- less government is better. especially when it comes to the student loan debt. if the federal government wouldn't have gotten in the student loan business would be much better off than we are now. it's not that we have a new wall street-funded remedy to take care of the problem. if you remove the government, universities, as you mentioned, would have to compete with each other on price and they wouldn't be able to have their tuition go up, up, up, every single year. because they would have to compete with each other paid but not when the federal government is in there guaranteeing those loans. >> harris: i think americans just have a basic distrust when people promise too much stuff. like that you can keep your doctor. we are out of time. >> jessica: what perfect timing, then! here we are. these days americans are living in larger homes than ever before. but all that space isn't making folks any happier. why bigger may not always be better, and why the house next door could be the problem. as a good musical ♪

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♪ ["ain't that america"] >> melissa: so, it turns out bigger may not always be better. when it comes to your home, at least. the stats don't lie. american homes today are a lot bigger than in previous generations. the average person has nearly doubled the space they did 40 years ago, but a new study finds that americans are not necessarily happy with bigger houses. that's because they compare their pads to their neighbor's supersized mcmansion! the author of this study telling the atlantic, "if i bought a house make me feel like i'm the king of my neighborhood, but a

new king arises, it makes me feel very bad about my house." he goes on to say that as more mcmansions are built, their presence pushes others to keep up with the joneses. by building bigger, and going further into debt. tom? >> tom: i don't like these big houses. i'm not turned on by them. i would not be jealous of a guy's big house. maybe his car, maybe his grill. things like that, i will be jealous of. [laughter] >> harris: by grill do you mean dental work or the grill on the front of the card? >> tom: both! >> harris: what decade do i live in? >> tom: some of these rooms, you go on these big houses -- first of all, i don't care about foyers. >> harris: i like a good mother. [laughter] >> tom: you go on these houses, there's nothing in it but a wooden chicken. >> melissa: i love wooden chickens! >> harris: you look at these houses in connecticut, those mansions that have been sitting open for months. some of them even years. north of the price tag of

$25 million. we have, from what i'm reading, a younger home buyer. even if they could, they don't want to live in that because they want to be in an urban area where they can get everything. they can drive their electric car and be able to actually plug it in and find a place that you can plug it in on a small mat. because the farther out you get from the city, sometimes it can be difficult. these are some of the things, not just through surveys, but millennials i talk to. they are like, "we don't want bought air in the house were not even living in because we are outliving our lives." things of change. i'm not saying necessarily the american dramatic change. you can want to house, you could want a family, all those things. not something that takes the entire family to clean on saturday afternoon instead of being out with a dog. >> tom: if you are jealous of her, talk to them. >> harris: there's very little going out at the neighbor's house. [laughter] >> melissa: tomi, would you think about this conversation? are you somebody that aspires to the big house? do you think it's beautiful?

what do you think of this survey? >> tomi: i think the reason people are getting bigger houses is somewhat motivated by reality tv. if you watch any of the "the real housewives." you have to live that reality tv lifestyle, you need this big home. of course on the west coast that's where a lot of these mansions are, in the hollywood hills in beverly hills. that's what we have to look too. you are right about millennials in young people like myself, we don't necessarily want more space. you don't spend time sitting at home anyway. >> melissa: jessica, let me ask you. i don't want a bigger place because i like my family. i think if you or your kids or your family, you want a big house so everyone can spread out. also, if it's big, i can sneak up on my kids and see what they are doing. they will hear me coming. >> harris: what's it like to live if you? [laughter] >> melissa: it's terrifying! >> jessica: but we also live in new york city. >> harris: i live in jersey, i have the option of a bigger

house! >> jessica: melissa and i live in new york city, so you won't get a house like that. the conversation about millennials, that cohort, it's really important to bring in the importance of quality of life. i grew up here in manhattan. i have a lot of friends that have moved to cities like charlotte, north carolina, . where they can have a house, they can afford child care, they can -- >> melissa: asheville? >> tom: we don't need more liberals moving to north carolina. [laughter] >> jessica: we are urban folk. >> melissa: there we go. as americans celebrate our nation's independence today, recent polls shed light on american feelings of patriotism. there's a big difference when it comes to people's political leanings. we will debate the reasons, just ahead. ♪ i can't tell you who i am or what i witnessed, but i can tell you liberty mutual customized my car insurance so i only pay for what i need. oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no... only pay for what you need. liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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♪ ["party in the usa" by miley cyrus"] >> it's our nation's birthday and there are probably plenty of parties in the usa today. it's also a good time to think about our feelings of patriotism and what affects them. the most recent gallup poll on the subject last summer asked, "how proud are you to be an american?" 70% said extremely or very proud. that's a large majority. but it's actually the lowest since gallup started asking the question in 2001. the highest percentage of those feeling extremely or very proud was in 2002, at 92%. when it comes to party i.d., 74% of republicans called themselves externally proud, up slightly from there before. in 2018, only 32% of democrats were extremely proud. a drop of 11 points over a year.

what do you think is driving the up for republicans? >> tomi: i think republicans and conservatives have always loved this country. you would think that both political countries would love this country, and he would think we would all share in that. but sadly, the democratic party in large part has become the party of cheering on anthem kneelers and believing this country oppresses people. i think that's sad. i didn't think that was a political or a partisan thing, to love your country. but it's become one. >> harris: just got? >> jessica: it's not a partisan issue, that's not -- being an anthem kneeler, which is obviously what the first amendment gives you the right to do, is something that we celebrate. i would love to see the swing when president obama was in office, if republicans had a dip in their patriotism. >> tom: they didn't do any of that. >> jessica: democrats love their country just as much as republicans. they serve our country. we have a number of veterans running for the presidency.

there was what we called a camo wave during the 2018 midterms, where he saw a number of veterans elected to office, including women. it was incredibly exciting. that will continue into 2020. >> harris: we are so divided now, though. that actually is assured everyone can wear. it makes you not want to be part of the process if you think you are going to end up hating the neighbor you are going to invite over for a second -- >> jessica: but their houses to big. [laughter] >> harris: yes, i want them to live in smaller houses and be more loving to each other. >> tom: it's true, most people are patriotic for the number's go down a bit and there are some people who are just still mad at trump and they say no. but in the end, i think they are. i was down at the beach last year, and the marine band was playing. they played all the different hymns, they played "anchors away" and all the navy guy stood up. it was so patriotic. most people really are. i don't know if the answer these things truthfully.

>> melissa: it depends when they ask the question. when i'm out and you see people either helping each other, serving their country, doing something nice for their neighbor, then if you patriotic. you feel that community. we are doing so much fighting lately that it makes you not feel patriotic. so it's kind of like -- what just happened? [laughs] >> harris: as a child of the colonel in the army, nonretired dad, it does worry me that we are having to judge each other's patriotism to discover who is more patriotic. it's red, white, and blue. it worries me that we forget about the other 1%, the 1% serving. i don't want there to happen. i want there to be connective tissue between those who fight for freedom and those who benefit from that fight. that should be irrespective of any poetical party. we should love that camo and that red, white, and blue. >> jessica: that was that bumpy slot in 2002 after 9/11

that 92% for the peach out of. >> harris: we wish you and your family happy, healthy fourth of july. we got our independence on their conversation today. "outnumbered" is back here tomorrow at noon eastern. happy birthday, america miralax works with the water in your body to unblock your system naturally. and it doesn't cause bloating, cramping, gas, or sudden urgency. miralax. look for the pink cap. but dad, you've got allstate. with accident forgiveness they guarantee your rates won't go up just because of an accident. smart kid. indeed. are you in good hands? car vending machines and buying a car 100% online.vented now we've created a brand new way for you to sell your car. whether it's a year old or a few years old, we want to buy your car. so go to carvana and enter your license plate, answer a few questions, and our techno-wizardry calculates your car's value

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like the old "tunic tug". but always discreet is less bulky. and it really protects. 'cause it turns liquid to gel. so i have nothing to hide. always discreet. ♪ >> arthel: a celebration for the national holiday, that president trump valves will be "like no other." underway along constitution avenue as washington salutes america with military displays, entertainment, and a massive fireworks. happy fourth of july, everybody! i'm arthel neville. >> leland: nice to be with you. we got the memo to wear red. there we go. i'm leland vittert. happy fourth of july to you and yours at home as we celebrate and enjoy the day prayed earlier on the national mall, marching bands, balloons, and drill teams. you can see there the armored personnel carriers that have