>> join us next sunday, when next revolution will be televised . mark: i am mark levin this is "life, liberty and levin," we have two former attorneys general, pleasure. 75 attorney general of united states under ronald reagan, 81 under george w. bush. >> thank you. mark: mueller hearings and investigation. whatever. i want to start at the beginning. the appointment of a special

counsel. should there have been a special count appointed under these circumstances. >> in my opinion, no. there was no need for one thing, department was not conflicted. it is understandable that jeff sessions had to recase himself because -- recuse himself, at least he was a fact witness potentially. but that did not conflict the entire department of justice. if once there was an allegation, if there was one, then it should go to normal process of the department. then handled by the u.s. attorney, either in washington d.c. or in new york. mark: what was the crystalgation. "criminal crimin- criminal, allegation there their was no criminal allegation.

they say, where. >> a conflict, then the attorney general or whoever is acting may appoint a special counsel. the letter of appointment for robert mueller referred to the investigation that was testified to by comey in front of the house commit commie. -- committee in march of 2016. that was not a criminal investigation, it was a count erin tellgence investigation. thatmenthat -- it was flawed. mark: you both agree there never should have been a special counsel in first place. >> right. mark: yet we had a somewhere spl counsel, we a him testify,

attorney general meese were you concerned by his testimony. >> i was concerned that the fact so much of the report seemed foreign to him or he was not familiar with it. that was he -- he was not familiar with the report, because, it looked like someone else had written it. much of the report itself, suffered in my opinion, a number of play flaws. the whel idea of laying out a prosecutor's brief, of reasons why someone should have been accused of doing something wrong, yet, very short, on evidence and very short on facts, and too long in particular in volume two. which was contrary to the law actually says in terms of what obstruction of justice really is. this not break of businesses --

bribing of with businesses or destroying documents, that is why i felt that the whole idea of that much material of allegations really would facts. was -- is what made had a flawed report. mark: the report itself was not supposed to be 500 pages was it, turned over on attorney general who testified he would give it to congress, and prosecutor office knew who won. and democrats were in control. i read both volumes of this report. volume two reads like the longest op-ed. >> i agree with everything that ed meese said, i would add, if he referred to it as a prosecutor brief, interesting 3, it a prosecutor brief for an impeachment, not for an

obstruction. mark: okaobstruction. >> you touched on this obstruction of justice, every document that the prosecutor wanted they got, every witness that prosecutors wanted, they got. including the president's own white house counsel shir 30 houe testified, n no assertion of attorney-cluclient privilege, he never takes steps as president of the united states to do doing, yet the reports and democrats focus on mcgahn, his white house counsel who said, and president denies this. president contacted me about getting rid of mueller, is that obstruction of justice? >> certainly not, what you saw

some things that were happening, in the special counsel's office at that time, the fact that the overwhelming majority of the lawyers that had been hired were democrats. many of them not just ordinary voting democrats but democrats who had contributed large amount of money to democrat party, particularly to mr. president ts opponent during the electiontion, the fact that many other things, in the way they conducted some of the activities there, including the bringing charges in course of their possess to people unrelated to anything to do with russia or the president, some cases that had been many years before in which they would looked like they were charging people with crimes, simply to get them in a position they could thenning thg

bludgeoned to be talking to say something negative about the president. if i were president, i would be appalled that kind of conduct was being carried out by the department of justice when is responsible to me. mark: you look at the supreme court decision in 2005, involving artur anderson, weisman's case, it was an obstruction case, it was about 8 pages long. 9 to 0, written by chief justice rehnquist. you can't have such a broad interpretation of obstruction this is a serious crime. you are a former judge.

you see what president did, he felt the prosecutor was conflicted. let's say hig he fired mueller, would that mean the prosecution ends? y. no, of course, not, the office would continue and the investigation would continue. also if you look at the kind of way almost that he -- certainly not a methodical way that president went about expressing his views about getting rid of mueller, asking people to take steps to do that. at various points. if he did. on a disorganized way. looks like somebody who was upset, lashing out. and talking the way people talk about i would love to get rid of him or her or whatever. that is very different from

actually undertaking a systemic methodical way, obstructing an investigation, you would not do it by firing the figure head. mark: this is a case i think that president knew he had nothing to do with russia, he was being falsely accused every day, and media picking up this not to respect the news but to get at -- not to report the news but to get at president, i think he did this out of frustration as an american innocence person. >> you talk about obstruction case as a prosecutor, you think can you put this in front of a jury beyond a reasonable doubt, i think that is part of the point attorney general was making when he discussed his not decision not to bringoy b an ben

vehicle you you should b-- obst. mark: i want to dig in on this one step further. you hear in media and in left and democrats say that but for the two opinions, from officing wellegal counsel that you can't indict a sitting president. they tried to get mueller to say that, but he would not, i have a different take, they fought that they had a -- thought they had a case for obstruction. that 500 page document, that is not really a legal document, it is just a big document. with the kitchen sink. nothing would have stopped them from saying we recommend are in attorney general you waive these decisions, reject show those

decisions we recommend indictment, they did not do, that i think that is interesting what do you think? >> i think a reason why they did not, there is no evidence. mark: right. >> to support that. i think that mueller was had enough control if you will, to make sure that did not happen, i have no doubt there were some people on that staff that had a bias against this president and would have done it if they felt there was any basis in which they could or mueller felt they could, it clear they could not do that. i and i think in second day of his testimony, he said that. made it clear, that there was not a determination one way or the other on guilt or innocence. in other words, they didn't know what they were asked to do, but i think it is because there was -- at least a congli conflict it full wrong headness amongs

staff. >> it certainly not a legal standard, only time. only time it has been used. as a standard. prosecutor don't exonerate people, you want exxon nation eu go to church. in a court of law, at best you are found not guilty, not exonerated, only way to account for that, is there were -- on both sides, i can't figure it out otherwise. mark: i >> if you think about it when they didn't have evidence and they didn't find evidence or announce evidence that support an indictment. the exoneration, if you want to call it, that came by process of law, if a person is not indicted and not proved beyond guilty beyond a reasonable doubt they

are really as innocent as a newborn babe. mark: they made a decision, you either pull the trigger or not, they did something worse when we come back, pursue that with you. don't forget most week nights you can watch me on levin tv. sign up, blaze tv.com slash mark or give me a call, or 844-levin tv. and 9 times, bestseller list, they hate it, you will love it, we will be right back. ♪

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mark: attorneys general, for a lot of people including me, this report. including volume two, written as an impeachment report was really an abuse of power, one day we need to circle back and look at this that said, that report, anything you can seen so far, they keep talking about

impeachment like apple pie, day talk about it every day, apart from the politics of it, has the president committed any impeachable offense. >> i don't believe in anyway, we have to understand what impeachment is about, that is, two -- three branches are separate and equal branches. the president could not be subject to congress in the sense of them being able to push him around, he has to be independent of them and carry out his duties as constitution sets them forth. but at the same time, the country needs a safety valve in case have you a president who goes wild, does something that is clearly again the best interest o people of united states, they provide the that impeachment clause from the english fore bearers, and other experience with other country, providing that, but not just to be like any other piece of

legislation it is a safety valve. that is why the considerable process you have to go through, that is the house bringing articles of impeachment, then a trial in senate, requiring two-thirds, and where chief justice of u.s. actually provides, so that is not just as you point out, just not an ordinary situation, or ordinary thing like voting on another piece of veg laying -- ledgerat. >> there is no question there is no basis for impeachment what so ever, anything in that so-called mueller report or anything that has come out in terms of what president has done or not done. >> he sit up this process. a separate body that conducts trial, and chief justice sitti sitting. so he didn't treat it as just

something to do if you don't like the president or you don't agree with this election or said something you don't like, it was more than purely a political act. the bar would not be set so high, is that right? >> i think that president ford was famous for or infamous for saying an impeachable offense is whatever the house says this is, that is a half truth. it was pointed out. in ed's discussion, this is a more elaborate process, that process designed to make sure that there is a feeling in the country, support, of really a groundswell of opinion. that supports removal of a president. for misfeesance. that is what it is about. by that standard, we don't have

it. mark: is that what this hearing about, trying to lay prett prete for impeachment, i never heard the politic tha -- politician tt runs committee, judge u, jurying and sentencing. is this simply trying to lay a predicate for an impeachment case. >> i try to the to read other people's minds, if i did, i would not start with his. but i can't think of any other reason for doing what was done in the way it was done. >> they lied about what the situation was, and repeatedly gave their impression of what

was in the report, not what was in the report, and trying to mislead the public to believe that was a basis for impeachme impeachment. it was designed to set the stage for impeachment when there was no basis for it, this one of the most despicable acts in my opinion that embarrassed congress of united states, with what they were doing, in what i could think of only to get rid of a president they did not like, who was elected by the people of the united states. mark: when we equipmen come baco ask but this plot, have you prosecutor office, and very partisan prosecutor, we know that by their conduct, one was representing hillary clinton, others giving donations. there is a regulation at department of justice about appearance of a conflict of interest, there was.

this investigation talked about impeachment, and talked about -- entire front half of what took place mr. mueller said was not in his purview. front half of the investigation, knew how to get to rod rosenstein to get his mandate expanded. but in this case, they did not. we come back, i want to ask you why. we'll be right back. hmm. exactly.

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>> we're following breaking news right now in california. report of a shooting involving multiple victims at a festival in town of gilroy, about 30 miles south of san jose, about 80 miles south of san francisco. police in gilroy have just confirmed shooting, there is no confirmation right now, on number of injured or whether anyone has died, this is video from the scene, taken from festival goers, shooting took place at gilroy garlic festival, that is ad if festival that started friday. and lasted through the weekend. video from ven true -- venue shows people running reports of a shooting involving multiple victims at gilroy garlic

festival in california south of san jose, more details on fox news. now back to left fiel "life, lid levin." mark: attorney general mukasey and meese. anything related to hillary clinton campaign in the dnc, funding of fusion gps, used as a go through to pay for christopher steele. goes to russians to get information opposition research. fancy name, dossier. that was not in his purview, fisa applications, which misled the court, that was not in hisper view, mccabe 's like, strzok's leaks and comey's leaks

not in his purview. before attorney general jumped in, mccabe's coop attempt ush a5 amendment, not in his per vie. fbi placing spying in trump campaign not in his purview. and obama administration's failure to do anything to stop the russians from interfering in our campaign. i kept hearin hearing during the hearings. the two people they have not interviewed on barack obama and joe biden. so, what kind of investigation is this? that sets aside all of these elements that are relevant, attorney general, said we have to get to bottom of this too. i'll go you to first. >> all that, is in my mind, an

excellent the reason for watching what happens when an investigation that is being conducted under direction does its work. current attorney general said he is interested in getting to bottom of how this all got started, it got started with steps that you listed. take fisa application. for a warrant on carter page, a u.s. citizen, you don't get aware -- a warrant on a u.s. citizen with a fisa unless they are working with -- what is basis for getting a warrant that named him.

the fusion gps, was funded for purpose of generating op-ed research. >> let me ask you, a question, former federal judge, these are federal district judges who sit on fisa court. i'm just curious about this, if you were one of those judges. you learned about parsety of these application it was misleading would you not want to call parties back and have a evidentiary hearing. >> unfortunately, i don't think that the fisa courts is set up that way. but that court functions to consider application for --

>> there is no recourse for a judge to say, he misled me, come back and chat about it. >> there is recourse in writing opinion, but not talking about an on going hearing or a court that functions on a on going basis in that way. that said, i would think that there would be a lot of questions asked. by not only the judges by the office of professional responsibility went the justice department. as to who is making the representations. >> this is fox news alert america news headquarter. we are following breaking news in california. shooting involving multiple victims at a festival in bil gi. if you look at map on left-hand of the screen, that is about 30 miles from san jose.

south. about 80 miles south of san francisco. now reports say that shooting took place at the gilroy garlic festival, an annual festival, a food festival it started friday, and lasted through weekend, this was possibly the last day of the festival, reports av shooting involving multiple victims at garlic festival in gilroy, california, outside of san jose, we don't know at-this-point anything about shooter or possible multiple shooters, we don't know any more information about how many people might be injured, might be dead. we don't know any of that yet, we're waiting for police, we have a tweet from police, as you watch the live pictures from ktvu, gilroy police tweeted

hearts of gilroy pd and community go out to the victims of today's shooting, at the garlickest in val, the scene is -- grlis garlickest in val, if e looking for loved one go to rekuhncasiorereunification cent. confirmation comes. on the ground from gilroy police, a small community just south of san jose. while we wait for more information. saying that still active scene is active, we bring in ted williams. williams. gilroy police saying that the scene is still active. what do you that mean to you. what you can tell us? >> well, probably means that the

shooter or shooters are not down. there is a great deal of confusion certainly after a shooting of this nature. it is not been confirmed by me, there are several newspaper report at least 11 people have been injured. that first responder have told them that. but, this is a -- for the -- viewers to understand this is a garlic festival that goes on annually, it is something that deals with guinness book of record, and a cooking competition. and approximately 6:30 or 7:00. there was gunfire. and there was a great deal of confusion for what i understand. first responders, are on the scene. they -- have set up a parameter there. and quite naturally, they are sorts out what is going on. >> this is happening in a large open space.

outdoors, you have probably hundreds of people attending. people from all different places. how difficult is this for any police department, let alone a small community police department to get a handle on this situation? >> it is very difficult, because. there is a great deal of confusion on the ground. there have been reports of individuals down. they heard bullets wizzing by them, have you first responders who are moving toward hopefully active shooter, and then have you all of these people who are attended this festival moving away from there. so therefore, it a very confused scene for law enforcement, they don't know, if some of the active shooters are among those moving away. >> how do you search for an active shooter in an open space

like this, what are police looking for, someone with a weapon but how do you search for someone, like, searching for a needle in a hay stack. >> there are individuals who are attended that festival, who was probably in close proximity with the active shooter. those individuals are perhaps giving law en for enforcement information, that is primarily what is doing or, with an active shooter like this you rely a lot on individuals, on the scene there to give information, a lot of times, these individuals will be calling in to law enforcement informing law enforcement what in a have seen, dispatchyer wilk in conjunctiontion with each other to get to scene of where the active shooter is.

>> i remember that from the horrifying mass shooting in near mandalay bay in las vegas. during that music festival shooting. you are right, people were running. away from the 69, but tellin --e scene but telling police this is where i heard shots coming from and people injured. they have to rely on people who are terrified. in shock. running from the scene. that is what you are watching on the screen, this is video -- festival goers. trying to get away from where they heard gunshots. we hr heard there were gunshots. police department have to prefarprepare for mass shootingt do you think people are being told on the ground? gilroy police say, if you are looking for a loved one go to

the reunification center. >> they are told to go on the center, but they are also cold to stay low. to the ground. what is happening is there was a time that law enforcement would just set up a parameter and then try to find out what is going on. but when there is now an active shooter they mov toward that ace shooter, they are trying to ferret out, innocent people who are trying to move away from that active shooter, and the the active shoot shooter or shooter. when a person hears gunshots they don't know if it is coming from one person or many individuals.

>> how important is time, we hear time is of the essence, a shooter can quickly get away in middle of a crowd, how important is time. >> very significant, and important. far more important for police officers to have first responders that have good deal of intelligence, from the individuals who are on the scene, who may very well be able to tell police officers, where the active shooter is. any given time. once that is established, then the law enforcement officers will move in. if there someone they believe is being hurt they will move in in a more aggressive manner, or someone who was an active shooter but no longer active, and barricaded. they will deal with differently, if no one else is being harmed.

>> just watching this video. and seeing the people make a run for it with families and children. it is hard to watch. you think about festivals and staidziumstadiums and concerts,h more vulnerable are people who they go to a festival like this, in an open area, where anyone can walk in. >> the sad commentary is that 99% of individuals perhaps that went to this festival, within with their children, family members, and acquaintances and friends, they went to have a good time, this is their worse nightmare, they did not anticipate or expect this. you don't go out to the various events like this, a cook out, and to expect something like that to happen. it is devastating to individuals

who are running away. you know at some state or another it can leave a pro found affect on young people, young children, that are on that scene that are running from there with their parents. relatives or friends. >> hard to watch, ted stand by, we'll recap for our viewers. we're following breaking news on fox news in california police have now confirmed a shooting involving multiple victims at a festival in small town of gilroy, 30 miles south of san jose, 80 miles shou south of san francisco, police confirming that the shooting did take place in the festival, there is no confirmation, we will listen to affiliate ktvu . >> it was ridiculous, chaos, we

got in the truck, my son picked up people, i got a couple people, the truck was full we got out of the festival. >> you heard more gunshot. >> we heard one begin shot behind us over here. i know it is gunfire. i'm a hunter, i know gunfire. >> okay, i'm going to bring it to another man here. john, what happened, family said it was so chaotic they brought strangers to bed of their truck to escape, you spoke with a couple girls who saw the shooter. >> a mother and two daughters. they said he was in fatigues with a machine gun shooting everyone, came from behind the theater. they were sort of panicked. reporter: what was it like to get out. >> mass, everyone was running. just to get away.

reporter: what is next for you? waiting it out. >> we're waiting because our moats or homes are -- motor homes are if there we were barbecuing we're waiting to see if we can get back in. and leave. we're waiting. nothing else we can do. reporter: i'll break it back to gary, gary, you were -- excuse me, you were saying, you could see the tents where you were standing. >> yeah, if you look over the tops of that white tent there. our booth is just over the back side of that. and also the stage, they were playing music. we heard like 50 at least 50 shots. while we were trying to get out of there. reporter: thank you for talking with us, i know this is an emotional chaotic evening. >> i hope everyone is okay. reporter: all right we're trying to get information from police, i pit in several phone calls.

confirming victims, i can tell you we had 3 ambulances pass us. a lots of families trying to find each other. live in gilroy. k tvu, fox 2 news. >> live report from our fox affiliate in gilroy. recapping a shooting, confirmed shooting at a garlic festival in gilroy, california, 30 miles south of san jose. we do not have confirmation right now on any number of injuries. there have been a lots of reports on social media of multiple injuries. but we do not have confirmation from police, police are saying that the scene is still active, that is key here, because we don't have any word yet on any shooters. if there was just one or

multiple shooters. we hear different things, but we're waiting for police to update us. bringing in retired nypd detective pat bro brosnan on the phone with us. gilroy police tweeting out confirming there was a shooting, then that there are victims involved. they said the scene is still active. so, to you, coming from law enforcement, what does that mean? >> a couple things. thank god number one, that it 2019 and not 1999. police now have a tremendous network of partners who have smartphones, audio, video. and still camera devices in their pockets, they are able to capture data and intelligence and inform the investigators onn the field and in the field as

relates. it is a extraordinary they have this. you say, based on police at gilroy, stating this is active. they are corroborating that real-time. with third matter and first party -- third party and first party data and e en -- intel tht did not exist a couple years a ago. ear witness accounts of what is going on, that supports the whole pattern of what is unfolding. that will lead them to the guy this a big deal. >> and social media, my gosh, that is what we're using to get a hole of this video that we're watching on screen. families, you know in panic running from the scene. you know how do police officers on the ground now work, what is this step by step, you know what

is happening right now, to find this potential shooter or shooters? as we have been hearing reports of. how -- what are the steps to take, in a place where it is an open field. you have tons of people? >> great question. back to smart phone. the police are driven by intel that support. from the smartphones, from a central base, they provide and delineate and defining information that comes in as it relates to a an eye and ear witn accounts on file, say a young lady sees the guy running who just put a gun in his waistband. and a round came out of his gun, sending that to ether it gets snagged in the social media, this distributed to police, it is then actionable intelligence to inform and mitigate the risk

to the unfolding situation, that not something that happened in the last couple years. you had that coming in real-time, a really big deal, that is what shaping here. you have your poetry in motion. that shows how it works. how actual intelligence, driven by people on the field, all of partners look. people in the field, kids in the field, they are partners of law enforcement, saying, i seen this, i heard that. here is the video. unbelieve able. it is illustrative manifestation of how to works today with the alignment of police and technology and process and data

and intel. unbelievable. you will see it here. someone somewhere in the crowd, has seen the guy who fired the gun or the female, we don't know. whoever that individuals who fired or individual, who fired the gun. this is premature invest faith tinvestigate --to send cob co to -- cob rahtive evidence. by the way, they are quick. quicksilver quick. capturing it. on their smartphone. unbelievable. we've seen it with bank robberies, and shooters. and. you will see it again. >> they have phones, they have

an audio, video device. >> we just did hear from witness on the scene, through our affiliate, saying that you know someone saw a man in fatigues with a machine gun, firing off shots. i imagine they will be connecting with police. we just got confirmation pat, that agent from atf are now responding to the scene. what does that mean to you? what kind of expertise can they bring? >> first, they are skilled. well informed. welcome. great guys.

they work collectively. we welcome them. but big thing here the big take away every individual on the scene is a partner of law enforcement. the tool is the smartphone. capture. and convey data intelligence. period. it is huge. this is new stuff. it will help support the case. welcome to the federal authorities, they are great guys, but we really welcome partners in the field. >> okay.

people on the ground are important. >> absolutely! mark: >> that is why they say, if you see something say something. i asked ted williams earlier how vuvulnerable are people in an aa like this, open wide festival. people can just walk in. >> they are extremely vulnerable, but collectively they provide a united front, they may not know it but in 2019, with the tools that are in every single individual's pocket. -- that is the collective memorialization of audio, video and still. that is a huge intelligence gathering tool.

as well as pro prosecutorial as. a really big deal, the cloud, the fog, as it relates to facts. it is cloud and i foggy right now. -- cloudy and foggy right now, someone there. is quick on their phone. they will memorialize it. it will capture it. whether still or video or audio. that will lend itself to the investigation. that is a rail bi really big de. >> pat -- >> there is no more hiding. >> if you could. you know, is this -- how quickly do you think we'll find out if -- how many shooters or if there was a shooter captured in. >> high guesmy guess is quick.

partners again. quote, unquote, civilian partner in fields will assist. they will drive this to a positive resolution. period, that is the way it works this a public, and private collaboration. it ha has been going on in new k since 9/11. >> pat thank you so much we'll take a bric quake break. recapping, fox news alert, breaking news out of california, police confirming a shooting involving multiple victims, we don't know anything about any active shooter or whether there are multiple shooters. we're waiting on police. this is in goa go -- gilroy, 30

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>> fox news alert. we're following breaking news, happening in california, shooting involving mu multiple victims at the garlic festival in gilroy, california. reports say that shooting happened at the food festival that started friday. reports of a shooting, involving multiple victims at gilroy garlic festival in california, outside of san jose. we don't have confirmation on the num