can see the vista mall as we you know so many people headed out with their families this take a full picture here. morning and with their loved officers have shut down the ones to get ready for the entire area. police in big cities, including weekend and to do their weekly shopping. we're going to continue to here in new york, say they're follow the news and the watching the situation very developments from new york. closely. to get more into this and get analysis, we're going to go to dr. darren porter, u.s. army veteran and law enforcement gillian: there are reports of analyst. darren, are you with us there? an active shooter near a mall. police confirming the situation >> hi, can you hear me? >> yeah, hi. on twitter, saying active shoot. we got you. >>shooting, stay away from the you take a look at the screen here, you can see the mall, you malaria. mall area. can see a lot of police activity, see people tucked into the corner in the shade on the left side of the screen. what exactly are police doing at >> the first reports of gunfire this point? we're trying to get analysis came in around 11:00 in the from somebody that would know what the move is at this early morning local time in el paso, techs stage. >> what's happening right now is local media is reporting that you have different sets -- you shots were fired inside of a have perimeters being established. you have a hot zone. you have a warm zone and a cold zone. the hot zone is actually where the shooting occurred. so this is where you'll have officers with heavy vests, the

automatic weapons, things to that effect. these are the officers that are more than likely going to if possible engage the suspect. then you're going to have a warm zone. the warm zone is going to be maybe a couple feet outside of it. the officers in the warm zone are still susceptible to receiving gunfire or possibly firing their weapons as a result of it. and then you have the cold zone. this is what you see right now on the camera. you see the officers -- you see the police cars outside and the primary focus here is to maintain the perimeter, not let people enter that mall, traffic duties, things to that effect. those are the three zones that we have set up right now. we can't see what's occurring internally in the hot zone. that's intentional. by all means, we don't want to alert the shooter as to what our positioning is in connection to the incident. it appears to be a horrific incident and the police are

planning due diligence moving forward. gillian: we have a report of 18 people shot. information is still coming in. we are gathering information as we speak right now. you mentioned traffic. this area is literally right off of i-10, not too far from the airport there. so what does that tell you? it's in a shopping center, you have you the mall, other big box stores, like the walmart. that's where we're hearing this happened. we don't know if it was inside or outside the walmart. this is a saturday afternoon where people are out running errands. >> it's interesting, when i was on active duty in the military i was stationed in texas and i'm familiar with the area where the incident is. you do have a large pedestrian and vehicular traffic zone at this mall. coupled with this being a weekend, on a saturday you have less resources that are working. more than likely, the el paso police department is going to put out a mobilization for additional officers that are

off-duty to come on duty. more than likely, the atf is going to probably bridge a partnership with the el paso police department, coupled with the texas state troopers, and those three organizations or those three units will assist with traffic moving forward. this is a heavy pedestrian and vehicular traffic zone going into this mall. we're looking at 18 people that are possibly shot. that's a ska catastrophic cat -c incident to say the least. it's going to take a mountain of resources to sort through, keep people back and enable the officers to get to the shooter as a result. >> the 18 people shot is just from local media reports. we do not have that confirmed at fox news. we also do understand at this point the atf is en route to the scene. i'm sure a lot of other federal enforcement agencies will be heading in as the police are trying to get ahold of what's going on. we don't know if the shooter is

in custody. we don't know if there is a shooter. in a lost cases you don't know anything. and sometimes the initial reports can be very sketchy. but dr. porter, people talk about this all the time. they see things like this on television, they see these active shooting scenes. what do you tell people when they ask you what should i do if i'm at the mall or i'm at the store and i start hearing gunshots. what's the move you need to make? >> the first thing you want to do is you want to run, hide, you want to run, seek cover and then dial 911. those are the three steps. you want to get away from this as quickly as possible. if you don't have the ability to get away from it, you want to at minimum seek a level of cover. it could be something such as a table, it could be a wall, else. there's a multitude of different places that you can seek cover in a place like, in a mall such as this. concrete columns, et cetera. and then you make the call for 911 to bring in the additional resources, because we need to get the boots on the ground to

effectively gets to the shooter. gillian: absolutely. >> and don't think in terms of trying to -- at this stage, don't think in terms of how to get out of the place because a lot of people get lost and, look, i need to make my way out of this place as quickly as possible. that shouldn't be your first step. your first step would be to run and seek cover. and while you're safely behind cover, that's when you can navigate your next move. gillian: i want to jump in here. as rob mentioned, we did get news that atf is on the way to the scene. this is a tweet from atf dallas that i'm reading. breaking atf is en route to assist the el paso police at the scene of a reported shooting in the area of the mall that we mentioned. it goes on to say, please stay away from the area and refrain from posting first responder activity on social media. that line in particular, what do you read of that, please refrain of posting first responder

activity on social media. what does it tell you about what's going on with the alleged shooter. >> right now, an assessment is being done. there will be special operations officers, the people with the long guns, heavy vests, helmets, he else. we don't want to reveal or introduce their placement as to where they're located, be it in the walmart or another store. because oftentimes the shooter, he or her, because we don't know if this is a male or female, they could be using cell phone and watching television to assess the positioning of the first responders as a result of that. gillian: i'm going to interrupt you. do you have a monitor in front of you. can you see the video we're showing on triv tv right now. >> what i see is an officer with a helmet trying to see to a possible victim. so i can see it. so right now, what they're doing, the officers on the scene that are speaking with those victims, they're trying to

assess the placement of where the shooter is at the location. gillian: that video looked like it was from inside a sam's club, also in the same shopping center. >> but that victim can be a formidable component of intelligence as to where the shooter is located, how many shooters are there, where did the shooter enter, what is the shooter wearing. these are important components for first responders to effectively get to the shooter and neutralize the situation accordingly. rob: when you go into this, does the weaponry of the suspect change the way police respond to this as we take another look, and yeah, that does look like a costco type place or sam's club type place. they're carrying somebody out on a cart there, a woman clearly shaken up. not sure if she's injured or not. gillian: sometimes you get injured when you're trying to run away from a scary scene. rob: does that change anything if police have an indication that there's an automatic

weapon, versus a pistol, does that change the way they respond or you go in no matter what? >> depending on the weapons used by the suspect, that's going to determine what the officers bring in. so i give you an example. let's say hypothetically the shooter is someone that's in possession of an assault rifle or .223 caliber. what the police would do in a situation like that, they would bring in a ballistic shield and that ballistic shield, one of those rolling shields would effectively prevent the officers from getting shot. it's a rolling -- i want to say it's possibly five to six feet high, it rolls in and it will be able to take rounds from something like a .223. if this is handgun, we may not need that level of fortification moving in. but the truth of the matter is -- rob: let me cut you off for a second. we see a number of people being he'escorted out of the wall, hopefully making their way to

their cars. gillian: we want to bring in garrett tenney who is live at the scene. i'm not sure if you're seeing what we're seeing with people. this is the most activity we've seen in front of the camera in the last few minutes of people in the parking lot. >> reporter: i am in front of the sam's club right now which is just adjacent to that walmart. i'm looking at the front of the walmart store right now. i'm standing where i'm told was the initia initial triage area. there's a couple bandages here that are soaked in blood that are left on the ground. the victims are no longer here. but i can tell you in the few minutes since i've gotten here, when i walked up, i saw a young man that was crying into an older man's shoulder and i asked him, are you okay, is everything all right, do you have family inside. and he told me my mom is dead. gillian: oh, gosh. >> reporter: he said he was in the parking lot. she had just walked inside.

and that he heard the shots. as soon as he heard the shot, he said he jumped out of his car, ran inside and he said when he got there it was horrific. he and the older man that he was with, i don't know if it was his father, but they said they saw bodies that were lying on the ground. they saw lots of blood. they saw brains. and his mom was dead. and he was taken away to talk to police. a few minutes later, i spo another gentleman who was coming the back of the parking lot with his mother, they had just pulled in and gotten out of their car, when the gunman in the parking lot opened fire and started shooting. he described it as in his words a semiautomatic weapon. again, these are not confirmed reports. these are what witnesses are saying. but he said he just heard pop, pop, pop and he said as soon as it happened, it took him a

moment to realize what's happening, he rushed his mom back to the car, through her in there. they -- threw her in there. they tried to drive to get out of the parking lot but they couldn't. the only way out was in the direction of the gunman. they parked in the far back of the parking lot, crouched down and hit in the car. when the man didn't hear more shots outside, he started working his way through the parking lot toward the front of the walmart to try to help some of the people he said were shot outside the store. these are just some of the initial reports that we're hearing from people that were here when this shooting immediately happened. you can see on that camera, i'm sure, because all around this walmart there is an extremely heavy police presence. you have s.w.a.t. units that are here in full riot gear, with helmets and the vests, the their wtheirweapons are drawn. they're not walking around with their guns raised as if this is still an ongoing situation. we have seen some people slowly

being brought out from the walmart, people that presumptively were inside hiding when the shooting began and are still working their way out to make sure that everything is safe inside and they're able to find everyone in there and bring them as they work their way out. when we got here, as i was walking down the hill to the front of the store, there was a long, long line of fire crews and medics that were walking up the hill. i would say probably 30 that walked past me on their way. so if they are leaving the scene, it appears that the worst of the injuries, those who were severely injured or killed, they have been already treated here and have been taken elsewhere for treatment because a lot of them were moving out of the scene to allow more police to come in here as this investigation starts to get underway. again, we're just now about an hour from when these reports initially came in, still a very

active scene here. i'm going to keep trying to talk to folks as they work their way out. rob: garrett, some of those details are horrific. let's update our views. this is el paso, texas on the east side of the city, near the airport in el paso, the siello vista mall. there's a walmart, a sam's club there and there's been an active shooting sometime around 11:00 in the morning local time. reports from local media say as many as 18 people have been shot. a witness told garrett tenney his mother was shot and killed in this active shooting, just a horrifying description there and police of course have surrounded this place. we've been watching video, rights now, full screen, of people being evacuated, a teenagers probably hanging out at the mall on a saturday and just ain who has been with us on the line for the last few minutes. he's in our new york studios. i'm sure you were listening to

the reports that garrett tenney was giving us live from that scene. just about the triage that was going on at the sam's club, he said. he said -- he was told from people who were there on the scene that the person who started shooting, started shooting in the parking lot and people couldn't escape because the only way out was to go in the direction of the shooter. >> right. that afierce be the case. -- appears to be the case. what the shooter established is this is a target-rich environment. when i heard the semiautomatic weapon, that sounds sound for what the carnage is as we look at 18 people shot. we have to take into consideration, we have two philosophies in law enforcement, you can either evacuate or shelter in place. when a shooter does something like this, he takes away from one of those options. and one of the things i'm wondering is what is the shooter's ideaology?

we need to contain the situation, we need to neutralize the shooter. that's absolute. i would like to take this person into cuss city, to gain intelligence, to make this a teachable moment for law enforcement, how we move into these types of instances. i can't explain how terrible it is for these people at this time, 11:00 in the afternoon, like i mentioned, i've lived in texas and i know what it's like at this particular mall at that time. and the truth of the matter is, fortunately atf is coming in to assist but we also have those two additional come pone compone el paso pd and texas state troopers that are converging on the scene. it's a matter of time before this person is neutralized or taken into custody. gillian: we're looking at a tweet from just a few minutes ago from the el paso police department and this is a quote from five minutes ago. it says the scene is still active. we have multiple reports of

multiple shooters. please avoid area. police conducting search of a very large area. you hear that from police that there's possibly multiple shooters. >> i mean, that sends chills down the spine of law enforcement. this is a very large area and when i mentioned setting up these perimeters, the hot zone, cold zone and warm zone, it takes a massive amount of resources to go in and secure a zone like this. because especially on a saturday, you're only going to have limited resources to begin with going into something like this but when we faul talk about several shooters with automatic weapons, it kind of reminds me of years ago we had a bank robbery in los angeles where two armed shooters had automatic weapons. it took them a long time to get this thing under control. and then another thinghat we have to take into consideration, florida, ink to the nikolas parkland a year and-a-half, two years ago, nikolas cruz was able to walk out of there and he was

caught at a later point in time in that day. law enforcement does not want we do not want this person to leave the scene and possibly commit further carnage at another location. so therefore, they need to apply their due diligence in accordance with taking these shooters into custody we just saw a number of people be evacuated from some part of this l mall, not sure how close they are to where the shooting is happening. would you see that happening before the shooters were contained or were taken down? would you see evacuations like that occurring? i'm trying to get an indication of whether or not they've got this in any kind of control. >> well, like i mentioned, because of the massive complex that the officers are converging on, they just don't have the ability to i want to say choke these points where people are coming out. so they may not have the control. and we don't want the wrong person coming out and committing

to additional carnage. it's going to take some time to get in there. this is something that happens really quick. i go back to years and years ago, we had officers -- i want to say uniformed officers, the first thing they did was they got on the scene and held the fort until the special operations troops came in. we've now since switched the pendulum over and we trained officers as first responders to come in and directly get to the threat. that appears to be what's going on here at i see on this video. but it goes b shot at the scenee going to prove to be an important component ofhere these particular shooters are in this comcomplex, coupled with if the, that would be a tremendous enhancement in their a ability to get in and get to the shooter. i'll give you an example in new york city. the nypd has the ability to get

into the feeds of a lot of businesses or the street cams. if they have that same ability in texas, it should be something that ends relatively soon. because we need some eyes into the location that tell us where the shooter's he located. gillian: to be clear, we don't know the type of weapon that was used. that was a report that we got from one of the eyewitnesses from garrett tenney. so i just want to make that point, we don't know exactly what type of weapon was used. but you talk about security, you talk about getting some of this video, police getting their hands on this video. you're at a mall, this is a mall, this is a massive parking lot, every single person watching this program has been to one of these type shopping centers where you have a million businesses, all there at once. you also have i-10, you also have the airport not too far away. you talk about security cameras in the parking lot, security cameras at the stores, possible department of transportation cameras on the highway. it would appear from an

outsider's perspective that police getting their hands on video should be a possibility. >.>> it should be. like i said, we need to keep our fingers crossed. i don't know what their resources are in the he'll p tho police department. if that happens, it's easier for officers to get in and contain the threat. bigger than that, we need resources from the officers coming in. as we mentioned, atf is coming in and that would be an assistance. going back to the weapon that's been used here, when we have 18 people shot, more than likely this is either a fully automatic or semiautomatic rifle. rob: that's a lot of victims. hang on for a second, doctor. we're going to bring in an eyewitness at the scene who is on the phone with us. vanessa sines. vanessa, if you can hear me, first off, i hope you're okay and tell us what you saw. >> yes, we're doing much better now. my mother and i and my

1-year-old son, we were driving into the parking lot. we were doing our weekly grocery shopping. as i was driving in, i was looking for a parking spot and all of a sudden you heard what sounded like fireworks, really loud fireworks. so i started looking to see where the -- i started hearing to see where the sound was coming from and i saw a couple of people in front of the walmart, one man looked like he was dancing and i thought that was kind of odd. you could hear the pops, one right after another and at that point as i was turning, i saw a lady, seemed she was coming out of walmart, headed to her car. she had her groceries in her cart and i saw her just fall and that seemed -- my mom said wait a minute, those aren't

fireworks. go. just go. and i started driving. i had to be careful because there was people running, kids look for cover and so i had to be careful as i drove off. at that point, the pops are just still going. i probably heard anywhere from 15 to 20 pops. i made it around to exit towards the back of the walmart instead of getting on the highway which i thought would be easier, since it's my neighborhood and i know it better. so i turn around and i saw this man dressed in a black t-shirt with cargo pants, carrying what seemed to be a rifle. just pointing at people and just shooting, straight at them. i saw about three or four just fall to the ground and i thought oh, my god and i was at a stop sign so there's other cars

trying to get out so i had to be very careful. so the last thing i saw was him walking into the walmart, very non sh chalant, like he was on a mission. gillian: i want to go over the details. you saw one man, correct? we are hearing reports there were potentially multiple shooters. you saw one man in a black shirt and cargo pants with what a weau saw that persois correct. rob: can you describe him any further than that? any other details about him that you saw? >> yes. i was pretty far away but i could s mentioned, he was wearig a black t-shirt, camo colored pants. he was wearing something to cover his ears, like headphones,

really thick ones. he was carrying a dark rifle and he was just pointing at people and just shooting and, yeah, the last thing i saw, he shot somebody that was in a corner and he just picked up the rifle and just walked into walmart. gillian: was his face covered? >> no, it wasn't. he had -- the only thing he had on was the ear muffs and dark, black hair. he was probably 5'10", 5'11", maybe late 30s maybe. i couldn't really see his face. rob: did you say you saw a woman get shot in the parking lot and fall as she was pushing her grocery cart out of the walmart, is that what you said. >> yes, sir, i did. that's when i thought, okay, this is not -- these aren't firewo saw more people fall.

he was just shooting it wasn't to any particular person. it was any that would cross paths. gillian: you said when we first got you on the phone here that you had your 1-year-old child in the car with you. what goes through your mind when that happens and you know you have a 1-year-old in your car that you have to protect? >> you know, you hear it on the news and you feel for the families and you feel for the people that actually witness this, but to actually know that that was me with my mom and my son, i count my blessings. pretty sad to know that there's certain people that aren't going to go home today. rob: vanessa, i can hear it in your voice. obviously you're tearing up and you're shaken up after all this and i can only imagine. i'm sorry you had to witness such a thing. ou.our condolences to you.

>> thank you. rob: we're going to bring back in dr. porter who just listened to that entire interview with us. doctor, what did you make of that? >> one of the things she introduced was a description of the shooter. that's huge. because when we go into a massive complex such as this mall, the officers that are responding want to have some idea of what they're looking for outside of just shots being fired. just based on the way this individual is dressed, that should be an indicator -- this guy is dressed in these types of pants, black shirt, wearing ear mufts to protect his ears from the shots that he hears in the complex. that's going to actually help officers a lot in making the identification. but like i mentioned before, we should have a feed, a video feed that's showing the officers where this person is located at this time. the victims are attelligence.

granted, we have these people that are shot. the number one thing on these get this guy, we need to stop this threat as quickly and as safely as possible. it. there are innocent people that are in this mall that are being slaughtered as a result of the shooter's ideology. we need to get this done and we need to get it done now. gillian: you've been on the air with the two of us and we've had this conversation before, unfortunately. i think when this happens again, you take a don't even know what to think anymore. here we are sitting here on a t. this happened around 11:00 a.m. when people are out just running errands, minding their business, getting their stuff done on what appears to be a sunny saturday afternoon. where do we go from here?

we're talking about it again. >> unfortunately, this is becoming more so the new normal. i give you an example, a place like israel. in terms of terrorism in israel, they prepare their citizens accordingly for these types of horrific offenses. since 9/11, there's been a seismic shift in law enforcement in the united states where we're now focusing on not international -- not just international tray terrorism, but domestic terrorism as well. this is clearly an example of domestic terrorism. therefore, we need to put in place the proper fortifications, exit drills, things to that effect, to ensure if these things do occur, we want to get the people out of there as safely as possible and we need to get the professionals, meaning the law enforcement agencies into this place as quick as possible so they can eradicate this threat.

this is the world that we live in and we need to be fit for the challenge and i believe present day law enforcement is fit for the challenge. rob: doctor, you start to wonder, if people think about this kind of stuff now, it's one of those things where you -- it does become a part of the reality and people start to wonder, am i going to be in a situation like this and you wonder do you need to take training so you can be somebody that can help in a situation like this. i think about it sometimes if i'm at a big event, what happens if somebody starts firing. it would be helpful for more people to know first responder tips, how to stop bleeding, how to keep people calm. >> that works great. i think the best thing, the civilians, the common citizens can do is dial 911. when you dial 911, you want to give an assessment that is sound as to what is the situation that law enforcement will face when they enter the particular location. outside of this, when we look from an exponential perspective,

we need to think about when these threats come up, when we make an assessment of someone that is e embarking upon rhetorc online or public circles, we want to alert law enforcement that this is an individual that has a propensity to commit these types of horrific acts. i go back to what happened with nikolas cruz in parkland, florida. people said that, look, they weren't surprised that he did something like this. there were numerous instances where as officers responded to nicholas cruz's residence and he had a firearm and the firearm was never removed. the onus is on law enforcement to take on top of these threats that people make so they can effectively sit down with these people and make assessments that, hey, look, this is a person where wee need to either remove the firearm or take them into custody. we live in a custody of -- we have 360 million people.

360 million people outweighs the numbers of perpetrators or gunmen that we have in the united states. gillian: can you hang on for a second? we have another person on the phone that we're going to bring in right now. we'll come back to you in a few minutes. let's bring in bernard zafor, a former special agent in charge of the atf. thank you for joining us, unfortunately under these circumstances. we know that atf is en route to the scene. what are they going to do when they get there? >> it is unfortunate, the fact this is happening again and will happen again. atf's role when they respond to the scene is going to be support local law enforcement. they'll provide number of immediate intelligence information that will paint a picture in retrospect of the gunman because of the life of the firearm. that's one thing. they're going to bring in resources, incident command and management of the scene to help local law enforcement deal with the fact they had to transport

triage and do the public services that have to happen and give them a relief on the investigative aspect of this. that's their initial touch. rob: just to update our viewers who are just joining us here. it's 23:02 on the east coast, 12:32 in el paso, texas, where we have reports of as many as 18 people shot at a mall, the mall contains a walmart and sam's club on nearby parts of the property. we believe the shooting began p outside of the walmart and quite possibly went inside. we have one witness who told us she saw a shooter wearing black and cargo pants and carrying a rifle and firing off multiple rounds right in front of a walmart and moving inside. we had another eyewitness tell garrett tenney that his mother was killed by t him outside of the mall right after this all happened when he got there to the scene.

sir, tell us, when you see stories like this happen again and again and again, how does that make you feel as a member of the atf? >> well, we're also looking at societyal damage. we have a mas nature's narsissm happening in our country. there's self gratification and the attention this type of mass homicide creates. there's a number of things we have to be aware of and anticipate. number one, let's assume these events will take place. every person needs to go through training. they need to know that you might be presented with an option. you might not have all three. but you might have the option of running, hiding or fighting in a and different variations. a simple thing i stop the bleed

training, the first three minutes that's going to save somebody's life before ems gets there. there's a very dramatic video that you're broadcasting right now of the police officer who is there with a rifle and riot he'll helmet, he's there to engage the shooter. that is stopped and he's applying a tourniquet to a wounded woman. that's the new norm here. as a society, those measures we can take ourselves in addition addressing the sociopathy. gillian: what do you think we need to do to stop the narcism. >> there's a larger mental health aspect here. it's been discussed all the way back to columbine. recognizing somebody's potential and havinge having engagement wm

is not necessarily stopping the acts. in terms of a broader recognition, we have to take a deep look at this, a combination of mental health professionals, academia, places of worship, to look at why are we trending this way, what is the need for people to find this recogniz recognitit recognition in faith or love of family or some other greater, higher purpose. rob: a lot of people talk about -- everybody wants to blame something. a lot of people in this country think that guns are the problem here. it sounds to me you think this is a mental health issue. >> i do think it's a mental health issue. the firearm reality in the united states is there are so many here, they're not going away. they're available. the supreme court has spoke to the second amendment. it's a tool of the trade for this type of issue. the bigger issue here is the cause augusts.

augusts. it's not -- causation. it's not the existence of the firearm. it's the use. if you look at our shootings, in the garlic festival in california, law enforcement enft engaged and stopped the shooter in under two minutes. they had armed law enforcement there for the events. there still was casualties. you take an aggregate of a four minute response of law enforcement responding, because law enforcement has a singular objective when they get the call for an active shooter. that is to stop the shooter, if there's only one officer that arrives, he or she is not waiting for back up. they're going to the place of fire and threat to stop it. even in that time gap we have to save ourselves through training and then the broader issue of why are we doing this. gillian: del tails are still coming in at this point. this obviously happened just in the last few hours. what we do know from eyewitnesses anyway is the

shooting happened in the parking lot outside of a wall r mart and then the gunman again, according to witnesses, made his way inside the walmart. the video we've seen that's come in, just more information, more videos starting to come in and our reporting from garrett tenney on the scene is that the sam's club which is also in that general shopping area, if you will, that area parking lot, that the sam's club was used as a triage. so you look at that video on the bottom of your screen right now, that's where they're triaging victims. we don't know any information about the shooter. we heard it was a man wearing a black t-shirt and cargo pants. that's from an eyewitness, not from police. we don't know the status of the shooter or shooters at this point. the last thing we heard from the el paso police department, 27 minutes ago, was that the scene is still active, that there were multiple reports of multiple shooters. so we don't have much to go off of. what are police doing right now that you can tell us at this

point? >> i think there's two take-aways, that we can look at this event right now and say the preceding event in california. even though they had the shooter down, they did not call the scene secure because they didn't know if there was more than one. they had engaged with one. until they know there's not another one, they're still searching for the potential of another t shooter. when you approach a mass casualty scene such as this, it's almost imper acceptable that one person could kill 18 people juan a matte within a maf several minutes. it's going to be slow for law enforcement to call the scene secure until they have 100% confidence, if they stopped somebody, that's all that's involved. the primary function is ensuring there's no further threat. the simultaneous process is to triage the victims, the evacuation of the non- of the nd

and trying to process the fact that you have mass casualties. people have to be triaged on-scene. there's not going to be a an opportunity to transport them all necessarily at one time to trauma centers if they need it. the triage that's happening there from trained medical personnel, they're i'm sure they're amongst the customers there, you're going to have nurses, emts and firefighters, people that are providing care, switching the role from shopping with their family on saturday to saving somebody's life. rob: the idea that there is always the potential of multiple shooters and you can't rule it out until you really know for sure. we're looking at now, -- it's been over an hour, hour and-a-half probably since this call came in and one would think the response time was a couple minutes at worst and you would assume at this point that police would have engaged whoever or whomever was involved in this and you would think that -- you

would assume there would be some kind of resolution at this point and what you're saying is there may very well be but until police know 100% for sure that there's not more than one, because el paso police did say they had multiple reports that there were multiple shooters, but if there's not, if there's just one, that person may already be dead but they can't say the scene is clear until the they 100% know. >> that's accurate. unfortunately, and this is a fear that others have, when you look at bombings in the united states, one of the unique bombings of eric rudolph -- this is the atlanta, 1996 olympics, park bombing. he planted a second device and whe -- for the abortion clinic bombing, he put a second deviceorcement, first responders. so you could anticipate, i would say, potentially, that a shooting event could happen eou have a single shooter that goes in, does this, they've

given their life for this purpose they know they're going to die and then you have the response and a second shooter comes in. law enforcement is thinking in terms of that aspect. until they feel confident there's not a threat, they're not going to call this thing secure. gillian: bernard, thank you for joining us, former special agent in charge of atf. we appreciate your time, unfortunately under these circumstances. but thank you very much. right now, we want to hear -- we have a sound clip from a witness at the scene. let's listen to that. >> i saw people -- [ indiscernible ] like what is this? as soon as we started realizing, it was chaos, just chaos. people started running all over the place. the most horrific thing i've ever seen. i'm sorry, i've got to go. >> you got inside? >> i didn't get inside, man. i was helping people up in front and unfortunately we lost one gentleman there.

>> there was only one shooter. >> yes, sir, that i assume i only saw one shooter. gillian: let's bring in dr. porcher. that was the second eyewitness account that describes only seeing feel that there are more than one shooter. when you have a weapon such as let's take a semiautomatic weapon, rifle, an ak-47, whatever, when you hear that massive number of shots, one of the first things that people think is it couldn't possibly be one t shooter. the las vegas shooting, for example, law enforcement initially thought there were multiple shooters that were firing at the people at the festival because of the massive number of bullets that were fired. it's best to think that we have more than less. the further into this we get -- i genuinely believe that law enforcement already has a live feed into the complex and

they're able to make the assessment as to where the assailant is located and how many assailants are in play and it's a matter of time before they converge on that individual. but when you listen to a victim or an observer, introducing this level of carnage, it really brings tears to our eye as americans and we say to ourselves, this is not the society that we live in. wear better than that -- we're better than that. i believe we have qualified and capable law enforcement that's going to move in and take care of the threat and get things up and running. it's an arduous task. as i mentioned earlier, this appears to be the new normal since 9/11 and we need to be fit for the challenge and i think we can take a lot of the teachable moments from places like israel and the middle east and apply it to the current society. rob: stand by for us once again. and thank you for staying with

us. we have reaction from the governor of texas. he said the texas department of public safety is assisting local law enforcement and federal authorities to bring this to the quickest and safest conclusion. we thank all first respoers we want to listen in to beto o'rourke who is a texas native and presidential candidate. >> i've got to share something with you that i just learned on my way out here to see you. in my hometown of el paso, texas, there is right now an active shooter or shooters at the siela vista mall. we heard initial reports of very high number of people who have been injured right now and so i just -- i'm thinking about el paso. i want you to be thinking about el paso as well. rob: so there's the 2020

presidential candidate beto o'rourke responding to what's happened in his hometown of el paso, texas today. dr. porcher, our last guest talked about something that was interesting, the idea we're seeing so many of these shootings, because it's almost like a fad, because people see the attention they can get and if you've got nothing else to live for, they say why not do something like this. how do you break a cycle that? we just see shooting after shooting. >> we break the cycle by showing and displaying us as american as being better than. we will do everything in our power to contain these things moving forward. a lot of it revolves around fortification. we need a partnership between police and the communities. when i say the partnership betweepolice and communities, it revolves around when you see

something, say something, that's a common statement we have here in new york city since 9/11. but if you see something, let law enforcement know that, look, this is an individual that is practicing a radical view, this is an individual that's posting radical information online. this is an individual that is participating in behavior that's unsound and dangerous to our society. so when we take that in consideration for us as citizens, there's far more common citizens than there are perpetrators. we need to have the readily capable professionals with boots on the ground that can make the assessment. time and time again, we always hear of these shooters that have always spewed hate and violence against society and no one ever did anything. so we as citizens have to take matters into our own hands and introduce that information to law enforcement. don't attempt to get the person on your own. you're not a trained professional. we do have the trained

professionals that are fit for the task. gillian: dr. porcher, you hit on something i want to get into a little bit more. you talked about how important it is to have the relationship between police and community. you are a former nypd lieutenant. you have seen all of the videos that have surfaced over the last week or two of people throwing water at the police officers and engaging the police officers and that's not the relationship you speak of that's important to have in these communities. now, again, that is localized at this point to new york. but you have these videos online. you have copy cats of all forms. the rhetoric right now of police officers in this country is just unbearable and unbelievable for some people and you see police in this video and you see them out there saving lives, you see them out there giving triage, you see them out there with the helmets and the vests. they do this every single day to protect us. >> you're absolutely right.

90% of police work is service oriented such as assisting people in car accidents, trying to find a lost child, things to that effect. only 10% is enforcement related. and unfortunately, when we think of the sensationalism with hollywood and things -- incidents of this nature, that's what people see in police. but the truth of the matter is, to be effective as a law enforcement agency you have to have that engagement with the community so you can elicit the proper intelligence so when things like this happen we can respond to it accordingly. what we don't see and what we don't hear are the number of these types of incidents that have effectively been intradicted prior to them coming to fruition. far morph of that happens than the mass shootings we see on television today. we need to preserve and maintain that relationship with law enforcement because police officers are public servants. they're not here as occupying army. they're simply public servants

that are here to assist in a proper society so we can effectively play our position in terms of the social contract whereas government affords us as the common citizens these protections under those guidelines. rob: and you think about moments like this what it takes to be a police officer. you don't know when you go to work that day, you might have to march into a place like this and engage somebody that has a semiautomatic weapon and has nothing to live for and how horrifying that can be and how your day can change to going into something like that. just to update our viewers. this is el paso, texas, coming up on 1:00 p.m. in el paso, almost 3:00 on the east coast and reports of a shooter, a shooting at a walmart near a mall. the silo vista mall in el paso. we have reports of as many as 18 people have been shot. we have witnesses here on the air telling us they saw people

shot in the parking lot of the walmart and they saw a shooter wearing black panned walking inside, carrying a rifle. it's been a lot of developments happening here in the last couple of hours of just a horrifying afternoon at this mall on the east side of el paso, texas. dr. porcher you would assume after almost two hours that there has been some kind of engagement with a shooter, correct? >> i believe that there has been some level of engagement with the shooter but i understand -- understandably so, it's not ready -- it's not fit to introduce that information to the public. because it's still an active scene. as your guests prior to myself mentioned, the police are going through -- they have a search grid that they're following to get through this particular complex and this mall. and it's going to take some time to get that done. so until we have the all-clear, that's when we're going to give out that information. and right now as i'm looking at this, just from my experience in

policing, i genuinely believe that the shooter has either suffered a self-inflicted wound or he has been engaged by law enforcement and put down. gillian: stand by with us for a second if you will. we're going to bring in right now dr. earnest patty who is a senior attending physician of emergency services at sain saina arnabus hospital. i understand that your center has received six victims. is that right? and what are their conditions? what types of injuries are we looking at? >> you misunderstood. i'm not at the scene. i am in new york. i'm a physician at a trauma center in new york, gillian. gillian: i apologize. i poll guys for -- i apologize for that. i'm not sure if you've been able to -- stand by. let's listen to this press conference with police. >> [speaking in spanish]e you bo

that press conference momentarily. doctor, i think we still have you on the line here. let's talk about this for a second. i'm not sure if you've been able to see any of this video that we have gotten in to our newsroom that shows the triage center that was going on at the sam's club there. we heard from eyewitnesses anyway that the shooting happened outside in the parking lot near that walmart. we've seen a number of victims being triaged in this video, obviously that's pretty much the extent that we've seen. what does that tell you about injuries? >> what that tells me is any time you have a mass shooting, you're worried about obvious life-threatening injuries. the problem is, how many people did he shoot, which type of weapon was he using, is the scene secure. if the scene is not secure, the problem is then the first

responders -- rob: i hate to cut you off again. i'm sorry. we want to listen in on this press conference here from police. >> as much information as we can get you, but for right now the important thing is, the reunification center, making sure nobody comes to the mall. we have plenty of people here, the scene is controlled by officers on the perimeter. we have tactical teams going on with a search of the entire area. >> a>> there isn't an imminent re active shooter currently. it's not to say we rendered the scene safe at this time. >> [speaking in spanish]

rob: this is going mostly to spanish now. we did learn a second ago from that el paso police officer, it appears the suspect or suspects have been engaged and have been neutralized and there is no more current threat at this shopping mall in el paso at this point. gillian: doctor, are you still on the phone with us? i'm still here. gillian: we hated to interrupt. we wanted to hear what police had to say. that is important information for the el paso community, no active shooter currently, no imminent threat at this point. if you could continue, what you've seen and heard so far about injuries. >> the problem here, the concern is you want to know if there was only one shooter, how many weapons was he using, was type

of injuries were inflicted, because of which type of guns he's using and where he's engaging them from. what we normally see in these types of injuries are usually you have multiple injuries, many of them injuries to the torso, the head t extremities, lots of them involving heavy bleeding and/or critical conditions of the patients. plus, there's always casualties that occur on the periphery where you have shattered glass, other projectiles created by gunshots. rob: i imagine there's a difference, a big difference in the kind of weapon that's used f you have a pistol being fired into a person versus maybe a semiautomatic rifle. one does more damage than the other, clearly, right? >> of course. i'm not a firearms expert but i am well-versed in injuries that people sustain from these types of accidents. when shooters go in looking to

kill or injure large numbers of people, when they use semiautomatic or automatic weapons, usually the types of injuries inflicted are much greater than someone with a single pistol. don't get me wrong, a single pistol can kill people very easily. the semiautomatic or automatic weapons are definitely aimed at doing more damage over a greater area. gillian: i know that you work at a hospital here in new york but can you talk about the response, can you talk about what's going on at the local hospitals at this point in time. police have not confirmed the number of people shot. we are going with 18. that is what has been reported to us. that was not confirmed by police. you mentioned other types of injuries, glass shattering, people running around, we've seen people getting hurt, stomped on in the crowd as they try to run away from the scene. what's happening at the hospitals right now? >> what's happening is the ems in el paso there has put out all points notification that there's

mass casualty incident. the hospitals gearing up, calling in extra staff, preparing extra ors so they have more surgical teams necessary to save some of these people that have injuries that are life-threatening. er is getting patients out who may not need to be there right now for a life-threatening illness. they moved them to other parts of the hospital and prepare the area. we do this all the time in the bronx. we prepare any time we are told there's a mass casualty incident, we mobilize our teams and we prepare the rest of the facilities that we're affiliated with to help us in case we need to send patients to them with different levels of triage. the scene is the most important part. those folks there will look at all of the injuries and then determine where they're going to send them, whether they send them to the level one, level two or level three trauma centers. rob: doctor, tell us, real

quick, what do you advic advisee to do if you find someone in a situation like this, somebody's been shot, you're trying to help. what do you do to a patient if there's nobody around with a medical degree and you're in a situation like this, what do you do? >> all depends on -- if your patient is able to talk to you and is breathing, those are the first two things that are helpful then you know the patient's airway is okay. we usually follow a, b, c, d, e. air was, breathing, circulation, disability and exposure and environment. you need to make sure you're safe. if someone is being shot at and you're running into that scene, you put yourself at risk as well of becoming a casualty. so make sure they're in a safe area. make sure 911 has been activated. sometimes no one has made a phone call. in this case, obviously police are aware. the facility's been evacuated and the scene has been secured. that's the greatest first thing

to happen. folks then need to go in if the person's bleeding, you need to apply pressure. that's probably the easiest thing you can do. take a cloth, rag, towel, whatever you have. put it around the area, sometimes a tourniquet is helpful if there's an extremity. you want to slow the bleeding down, hopefully saving this person's life and saving valuable time. gillian: we want to save as many lives as possible in these situations, that is for sure. dr. earnest patty, we appreciate your time. we want to update you with information from police right now that we just learned that one person is in custody, we don't know who that person is, that's from the el paso . they did announce no active shooter. let's bring in former nypd lieutenant, relearned vital information, what does that tell you? >> i think it's amazing that we took the person in custody.

jillian: we don't know if it's this person to be fair. all they said one person