victims, everyone bonded together and recovering there in el paso, you are all tonight's midnight heroes. most-watched, most trusted, most grateful you spent the evening with us, good night from washington, i'm shannon bream. ♪ >> tucker: good evening and welcome to "tucker carlson tonight." what's the point at which rhetoric forces action? one to words become incitement? at what point do political attacks become so reckless and unhinged that you can no longer heal the divide they create with politics? force people toward something darker. it's hard to know exactly when that point is, but the left is getting very close to it. to give you many examples of this, we will begin with this exchange from last night on msnbc. this is frequent guest malcolm nance accusing the president of the united states of sending secret messages to neo-nazis. >> these people feel that they are the foot soldiers and

executors about these disenfranchisement of the white race is feeling and donald trump is giving them subliminal orders in their heads. >> tucker: subliminal orders. whatever his faults, you can be certain that donald trump is not doing that. trump is the least subliminal politician in american history. he has no subtext. that's part of the problem, of course. if he's thinking it, he's sayini it. the claim is ludicrous but in msnbc, it wasn't even the weirdest thing uttered on their air yesterday. that distinction goes to frank, a former fbi official turned talking head conspiracy not. he used numerology to explain the president's coded messages. watch this and keepp in mind it is entirely real, we have not edited a single word. >> if the little things and language and messaging that matter. the president said that we will fly our flags at half mast until august 8th.

that's 8-h. i'm not going to imply he did this deliberately but i'm using this an example of the ignorance of the adversary that's been demonstrated by the white house. the numbers 8-8 are very significant in neo-nazi and white super missing movement.ca why? because the letter h is the eighth letter of the alphabet. and to them, the numbers 8-8 together stand for hitler. >> tucker: got that? eight is a racist number. if that's what they're telling on msnbc. in other words, things are getting dangerously crazy on the left. how crazy? on monday, former jeb bush spokeswoman nicole wallace explained that president trump is planning a of hispanic-americans. watch this. >> wrap it up again to the invasion, warning people of the caravan and words like infestation. what to do with an infestation? with an infestation, the natural conclusion is to attempt and extermination. >> president obama used the

power of the presidency to try to pass competence of immigration reform. at latino communities, latino leaders of the table. the president talk about exterminating latinos. >> tucker: exterminating latinos. keep in mind that donald trump as a factual matter got a higher percentage of the hispanic vote than mitt romney did. turns out that not all latinos believe in open borders. a lot of them don't. some of them agree with donald trump on the regression. the left is not telling you and demanding that you believe that anyone who supports donald trump is a whitete supremacist and mut be destroyed. they are telling you that for political reasons. this is election season, obviously, and they want more political power. but there are other reasons too that they are sayings. ever wonder why rich people seem the most hysterical in the subject? ever notice that it's the highest paid people on television for the most determined to convince you that white supremacy is america's biggest problem. why is that? simple. every minute you're angry about race is a minute you're not thinking about class, which of

course is the real divide in this country. working-class people of all colors have a lot more in comment -- infinitely more in common with each other then they do with some overpaid msnbc anchor. and if you are allowed to think about that moment if you might start to get unauthorized ideas about economics and that would be disruptive to a very lucrative status quo. so they whip you into a frenzy of racial fear that it never enters your mind. it's a diversion. everyone else hates each other. if they get to keep their money. pretty tricky. unfortunately is also destroying the country. this is the path to civil war, obviously. so we want to take a second to pass on a sincere message to official washington, particularly in our colleagues from the other table to cable news channels. this. please come for the sake of the nation, calm down. yes america has problems, yes racism is one of america's problems, but so is the fading middle-class, so is the terrifying drug epidemic that killed hundreds of thousandsds f americans. so is the national debt that's growing by a trillion dollars a

year. these are huge problems and people know that. people know their country is in decline. and it's making them turn to a new political leaders. if donald trump was one of those new leaders. elizabeth warren and alexandra kazu cortez are a couple of others. this iss a time of frustration and it's a time of change. it's a hard time for america, but this country is not on the brink of. it's not even close to that. this is not a white supremacist country plotting the slaughter of its own people. it's a kind country full of decent people of all races who like all people everywhere make bad decisions from time to time, but they mean well and they generally try their best. so going forward, give them the benefit of therd doubt. even when you disagree with them. maybe especially when you disagree with them. these are your fellow. american. cut them a break. they deserve it. and remember, the alternative is disaster. joe concha writes about media for the hill and he joins us tonight. joe, in that spirit -- i don't want to increase the temperature

or trafficking even more outraged -- and i am outraged sometimes and sometimes i regret how outraged i become, but i have to say that accusing your political opponents of wanting to commit or sending secret telepathic messages to "the squad" to nazis, does seem like it's ratcheting up to a point where things are falling apart. >> i would argue that yesterday was the lowest point in msnbc's 23 year history because there's another example in addition to the other two you provided from nicole wallace and that analyst later on brian williams' show, that was mikel burzynski on morning joe, who said that the president of the united states wants mass shootings to happen. wants to see the american carnage and slaughter of american men, women,ht and children and no one on the set, pot one person can step up and say that is too much. that is too much, and as you

mentioned, nicole wallace, a former communications director in the bush administration saying that latinos are going to be exterminated. i've never heard something so offensive on cable news and she'll be back on today because she t only offered a half-heartd apology that obviously level nonsense around august 8th and sending a bat signal to neo-nazis. this isn't msnbc, tucker. this is ms info wars. this is -- alec jones is washing that insane that sounds a bit crazy. here's what that has to happen, brian roberts is the ceo of comcast. comcast owns nbc universal. universal nbc news, msnbc news has a chairman named amalek. he needs to get a very important person at 30 rock on the retina's division into a room and say this is enough. you will be fired or suspended if you peddle in these conspiracy theories and attachment of the never before not too long ago. i don't know if you remember this, i think this was about six

years ago. martin said that people should defecate on sarah palin. it was vetted and he was fired from the network. when nicole williams as fun of fat on brian williams show saying are you kidding me if the president re-raises flags at the signal to neo-nazis. these people should not be on the air anymore as a result of saying that because honestly this is the stuff that divides the country, tucker, as to your point. >> tucker: it seems like it's moving toward something awful. i sure hope i'm wrong. great to see you tonight, thank you for that. >> thank you. >> tucker: congressman joaquin castro is not backing down at all after his decision to target his own constituents for donating to a politician he doesn't like. instead he especially accused them of being complicit in murder motivated by racism. watch o this. >> there are people right now that are living in fear and i don't think the president understands that.si i don't think those donors understand it, but they need tou

understand what their money is goingei to. you're giving money for somebody that's going after the community and people have gotten killed becausee of that. unless you support white nationalism and the racism that donald trump isan paying for and fueling, that i hope that you as a person of good conscience will think twice about contributing campaign. >> tucker: that's just one of the sickest things i've ever seen on television. julian epstein has been in d.c. a month from coming towards us tonight. but, i get with thehe light fro, get with people to like his rhetoric.'t i guess don't get why people disagree with this policy positions but to say that anybody who disagrees with my politics is a what's a premises, which is like the worst thingwo you can be, that's too freaking far actually, i think. >> look, i think your introduction was good. i think the call foras de-escalation of the rhetoric on both sides is good. i think it is tearing theth country apart while we are ignoring othertr issues. i think your introduction could have included an urging to the

president to also tone down the language, to try to tone down what has been i think incendiary name-calling towards immigrant communities. i think that has also played a contributory role. that is not a discount -- the problem with the left and the right it's all but what about- about-ism. there has been extremist reaction. >> tucker: i don't like the tweets. i have never liked thehe tweetsi get it. >> so i think the president 'his rhetoric has played a role in what has been a disastrous kind of civic situation that we have rightof now. that's not to say that the left doesn't overreact. this is part of the problem of a political world that's dominated by twitter and cable news. if the loudest and most extreme voices are always getting all the attention. >> tucker: this castro character as a presidential candidate. and his brother, who tweeted that out, is a member of congress. so these are not even cable news

employees. these are -- former cabinet secretary and a sitting member of congress. >> here's what he would probably say if he were on the show. this kind of tweeting and identifying and naming and shaming promises become part for the course in american politics, so why should this be any different? >> my response would be you are dealing with an incendiary situation right now and it's time for people on both sides to tone down the language because the last thing we want to see is another tragedy. >> tucker: here's what's happening at this is what trump is actually -- trump has said things that are imprecise that i disagree with but i think inflammatory, clearly. but here's what he hasn't done. said that anybody on the other side just by virtue of supporting a politician he doesn't like is evil. that's too far. if you're supporting donald trump, you're a white supremacist? if you don't agree with me you are a nazi map that is the beginning of civil war.

>> yeah. lincoln's famous words. nobody wanted more to come, but working, and we are headed towards -- i think we are in a political cold civil war right now. and that's bad for the country. really bad for the country and i think people on both sides have a responsibility. i think that it's -- it's -- it is important to say that i think some of the president's language at some of the president's rhetoric has given encouragement to extremists on the right. i think that's true. let me finish the point.uc >> hold on. i don't like alexandria because her protest. i think she's dumb and i think the policy positions are wrong. if you give money to alexandria because you cortez, you can be a good person. you just disagree with me. >> is going to say that. i was going to say that. yes. i was going to say i think after supper. i think while you can say that some of the president's language has given encouragement to extremists and perhaps even this

mass murderer in el paso, it is unfair to say that everybody who supports the president is a white supremacist or a bad person. people may have all kinds of reasons for supporting president trump. and i just think -- i think that unnecessarily polarizes in this kind of culture of contempt for everybody on the other side is an evil person and you look down derisively on them. and that is toxic five -- >> tucker: i want to be very clear about something that i think i wasn't clear enough. those tweets calling out and doxxing in effect the donors to trump from texas, those came from the congressman whose brother is running for president. if they did not come from the presidential candidate. want to be totally clear about that. thank you for that.ut >> okay. >> tucker: mass shootings grab the headlines but far more americans are in danger from the routine violence they encounter in american cities. there's a lot of it. larry elder joinsge us next to discuss that. stayay

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♪ >> tucker: 31 people were killed in mass shootings in el paso.d it was horrifying. and at the same time it's not as rare as we like to tell ourselves. mass shootings are just a small part of this country's violent crimee problem. in chicago the city deadliest all year, as destructive as any mass shooting we've seen. >> this was the chicago police at 18th and killer which picked up the sounds to's homes of shots fired early sunday mornin morning. o

it goes on for almost a minute. the gunfire leaving a 33-year-old man dead and eight people wounded. city wide, seven people were killed and 48 wounded over the weekend. many on the west side. >> tucker: those seven murders pushed to chicago to over 300 murders for the year. most of those have occurred in just a handful of neighborhoods. the black residents suffer the most by far. 80% of the victims. smaller cities, sailors, baltimore, detroit or even more dangerous. that's not what about -- it's totally real and it's ignored. larry elder as an attorney and a radio show host and joins us tonight. whyth is that -- by the way, you can deplore and be upset about mass shootings and i think all normal people are, and still ask the question why is the day-to-day carnage ignored resolutely? what's the-t answer? >> well, it's a good question. 17,000 homicides last year.

half of those were by black people against black people. the number one cause of preventable death for young black men as homicide. the number one cause of preventable death for young white men is accidents like car accidents. 25% of young black men of criminal records as opposed to 10% of young white men. and arguably two of the most prominent leaders in the last several years, black leaders have been jesse jackson and al sharpton andck both of them have had it on nonexistent relationships or poor relationships with their own fathers. in the case of jesse jackson, is pregnant teen mother -- mother got pregnant by the married man living next door and jesse jackson grew up with kids taunting him in south carolina. jesse ain't got no daddy. al sharpton had a nice comfortable middle-class life until his father abandoned the family and down to the ghetto he went.i i mention that because 70% of black kids are raised without fathers and obama said a kid without a dad is five times more likely to be poor, nine times more likely to drop out of school. 20 times more likely to end up in jail. far and away the number one problem in this country and it's

being ignored. >> tucker: why, i wonder. if you cared -- i don't think is really a lot of debate among sociologists. there are longitudinal studies for the last 100 years on this question and they all point to this. if you cared, he would emphasize this but people don't, why? >> well, the left is not because they have to crate the problem. in 1940 for example only 14% of black kids were born outside of wedlock. 1965, 25%. now it's 70% and i argue that the welfare state has incentivized women to marry the government and allowed men abandon a financial and moral responsibility.nm it will require the left to go to the mirror and say all my got a help to greatest problem, what do i need to do. if the answer to undo the welfare state. we know the welfare state creates dependency because in 1996 when bill clinton signed the welfare reform act, what happened? declined by 50% and you can't blame not just on a good economy. what happened is able-bodied people got off the couch and went into the market. and what we've done is distorted people's incentive with the

welfare state that requires a real big discussion that people on. the left do not want to hav. >> tucker: we should be having that, because it matters. i want to ask about this too. the new york city department of health is not going after the city's police, the city's health commissioner. interacting with law enforcement in any capacity is damaging to people's health. the new criminal justice action kit is being distributed to doctors to help them properly care for patients who suffer the trauma of interacting with the justice system. what you make of that and what's been a long term effect of an announcement like that which is a? >> it's a horrific lie. it was just a paper published in the official journal of the national association of science. national academy of sciences, rather. two researchers from pennsylvania. they've been looking at a police hiooting -- i think it was in the year 2015. every single police shooting in the country and they could not find any pattern of discrimination against black suspects whether by a white cop or black cop. it didn't matter. there was no pattern of the skirmish whatsoever that tracks the paper written by a black

harvard economist who also thought he was going to find aas disproportionate use of deadly force against black people. he found the opposite, that police were more hesitant,ou moe reluctant to pull the trigger against black people. what this lie does, it causes young black men to be confrontational with cops instead of cooperating and it causes the cops to pull back for fear that they be called racist and you are saying what's called the ferguson effect in places like chicago, baltimore and st. louis outside of ferguson where cops pull back in the very people that thes left claims thy care about, black people, with the oneso were most likely to become victimized. so it has a real-world consequence. it is a lie. >> tucker: yeah. and the usual people suffer. the people that no one actually cares about and i've noticed. larry elder, great to see you tonight, thank you for that. >> you got it, thanks for having me. >> tucker: you are hearing demands all of a sudden mostly from democrats but also some republicans for new gun control measures. some like beta or rock are demanding outright gun confiscation. but not everyone on the left is on board. jason nichols is professor of

african-american studies joins us tonight. thanks for command. we don't agree on much. i think you're a man of good faith. i love having you on the show we sincerely disagree i would say on most issues. >> absolutely. we want to talking off the air you said something really interesting and illto wanted yoo explain it more fully for our audience. you are not reflexively onboard with gun control measures. >> so there are some common kinds gun control measures that i think makes sense, even limiting the capacity of a magazine. he saw for in gilroy, california, where the guy had a 75 round drum connected to hisru weapon. i'm against that. i don't think we need silencers. i think we need universal background checks. but gun confiscation goes way too far. when we look at the history of gun control in this country, it has been to keep guns out of the hands of black people. and that's indisputable fact. i would point anybody to adam winkler's work out of ucla. as a matter of fact, when you go back to the antebellum period, it was to keep guns out of thee

hands of both enslaved and free african people. and then you go to roger cheney, who wrote the infamous dred scott case. in one of the things that he said was that he didn't think black people had writes that white people were bound to respect in part because he thought if you extended those rights, that they would have the rights to carry and own guns. the ku klux klan, the infamous terrorist group, conservative terrorist group, regardless of party. >> tucker: a democratic part of her. if we are being honest. >> but they are still conservative christian. >> tucker: they were. >> but at the same time. that group were advocates of gun control. so i think, honestly, when you look at the history of the issue, i think that african-american people should be a little leery about people wanting to come around and take their guns. >> tucker: you think? [laughs] yes, sergeant left but you make a compelling case because what

you're saying is factually true. and this is a nonrational point. this is just a point about human nature, but when you want to oppress someone, you disarm them first. of course. and you've seen that in totallye homogenous countries where race is not a factor but thes first thing the government does is disarm the population before doing something horrible to them, obviously. so because what you just said is so truly, clearly true, why is it so rarely said out loud? >> you know, i'm not exactly sure. some of our civil rights heroes that are oftentimes not acknowledged, what were talking with the deacons for defense, talking about robert f williams, i'm not sure exactly why people don't state this. >> tucker: was martin luther king for gun control? >> dr. king at one point was certainly a gun owner and at ona journalist nearly sat on top of the gun in his home and called his home and arsenal.

>> tucker: martin luther king's home. >> but at the same time, there are organizations that have worked against black people that are program and they are pro-gun control when it comes to black people, like the nra. >> tucker: i would say -- i'm not here to speak for the nra, but as someone who believes in the second amendment, i believe it's a universal principle that applies -- it goes without saying, but i will say it exquisitely, it applies without regard to race of course. applies to all human beings. it said god given right, the right to self-defense and effect most people believe that. how much will you take for saying something so obvious on thel show? >> i take it every time i'm on the show from one side of the other. so i i think i'm prepared for i. >> tucker: you're prepared for it. thank you very much for coming on. i hope that people can rise above the partisanship just for a second and meditate on whate you said because i think it's absolutely true. great to see you.

at least 14 fbi agents were caught leaking information to the press, only four were fired. now peter strzok is claiming out to keep his job. what does that sayob about the culture of the federal bureaucracy under specifically about the culture of federal law enforcement? we will investigate after thehe break. ♪ ♪[upbeat music]

♪now i'm gonna tell my momma♪ ♪that i'm a traveller ♪i'm gonna follow the sun♪ ♪now i'm gonna tell my momma ♪that i'm a traveller transitions™ light under control™

♪ >> lie from america's news headquarters, the president and first lady back in d.c. after a very busy day traveling and meeting with two greeting american cities. the first couple's initial stop dayton, ohio, the scene of last sunday's horrific mass shootings that left nine people dead and many more hurt. trump met with first responders and survivors of the massacre. the white house says the president would like to have a conversation to prevent similar attacks, but he was met in dayton for protesters who did not welcome his presence. a similar reception in el paso, texas, where police had to don

riot gear for the first couple visit. many states that fiery rhetoric has foster the kind of hatred that could have led to saturday's done attack which left 22 people dead. the population of el paso largely hispanic. now back to tucker. ♪ >> tucker: well, the fbi is entirely willing, and they have displayed it many times, to drag american citizens from their beds at night and send them to prison. for life. if they misremember what they said in irrelevant emails, they are trying to do that right now to a number of people as you know and yet strangely, the fbi seems not concerned at all with wrongdoing by its own agents. how do we know this? new documents contained by judicial watch show that 14 separate fbi agents were caught leaking sensitive or classified information. only four of them were fired. with an attitude like that, it's no wonder that new fbi leaks were appearing in america's major papers on most every day for the past two years.

joins us now. tom, thanks a lot for coming out. >> you're welcome. >> tucker: so 14 separate agents caught. these are just the ones who were caught, leaking sensitive material. and only four fired? how does that work? >> after the fbi, you are a protected class it looks a like. you had -- one of whom was fired was andrew mccabe, the number two at the fbi. others who weren't fired, they couldn't even -- they weren't even censured or punished the way opr initially wanted them to be punished so they were actually under-punished in many instances. >> tucker: so this is not a crime? it's a crime -- my understanding at the climb crime to reach cld information. >> some of it was grand jury it looks like according to the t documents. so you had in 14 instances, the opr investigate and request the firing of several officials, some of whom they didn't even

fire, they just censured. for suspended.r: >> tucker: how can that be at exactly the moment whenac the fi is sticking firearms in the faces of americans who've been just accused of not remembering an email -- totally irrelevant email. how can they hold themselves to such a lower standard? >> andrew mccabe was specifically referred for criminal prosecution on his illegal leaking. and his lying allegedly about it. that was well over a year ago. but it is a double standard. >> tucker: so what does that mean? that means he will not be prosecuted? >> it suggests that nothing is going to be done. >> tucker: is anyone ever prosecuted for these kinds of crimes within the fbi? >> rarely, by all accounts. certainly -- we do this analysis three years, 14 agents, no prosecutions, four firings. many of the agents got away with lesser punishments than recommended. >> tucker: so you're answering the question that we raise yesterday on the show, which is

how did peter strzok get the kind of chutzpah required to sue the fbi for firing him for clear conflicts of interest in the course of his job? how does it get that attitude? >> we use the phrase the untouchables. great old-fashioned term. if you've got bureaucrats who think they're untouchable, they behave the way that peter strzok behaved. and to me, it's ironic that he's suing the fbi, because from our perspective they've been protecting him for as long as the scandal has been out there. he was fired from a mueller investigation. we didn't know about that for four months. the fbi currently is telling us that we should have to wait 26 months to get all of his communications with his paramors lisa page. and they are withholding all the personal emails that he's beenin sending her, 43% of the total documents he was creating with her work personal. this guy has gotten away with a lot and if anyone should be sued, he a should be sued by people like donald trump who

abused -- and then james comey, by the way.ke we cut him -- fbi tells us he had fbi files at his house. specifically -- >> tucker: try that if your roger stone and you will die in prison. i get a very great to see you.yo >> thank you. >> tucker: congressman ilhan omar may have committed campaign finance of violation. committed tax fraud. even her marriage history cannot be verified by local reporters and yet somehow the same press is not interested in any of this. a republican state representative in the state of minnesota, he and his colleagues have been demanding a formal investigation of omarr for frau, perjury, and more. he joins us tonight with an update on that effort. thanks for coming onto my. how much closer to the truth have you gotten to >> well, tucker, when i was t with you lt time, we asked formally for an investigation with the office of congressional ethics and they are acting on that at this point or at least getting

investigation required going forward. i also formed an online petition, or more.com to take input and encouragement from citizens across the country to encourage congress to act. we did that last time. yesterday i held a press conference with nine of my colleagues and we focused specifically on the income tax violations that were exposed by a minnesota state agency where representative omar actually file taxes jointly with someone she wasn't married to. so we appealed to and wrote a letter to both the irs commissioner into the commissioner of the minnesota todepartment of revenue. so the department of revenue knows about it. they received the letter yesterday from us. the irs knows about it. congress knows about it. and the media know about it. we are making certain that all of the people that should be investigating this are aware of it. >> tucker: so there are credible allegations that she

both married her biological brother in a sham marriage designed to support our immigration law and in fact ilhan omar may not even be her real f name, that she may have come to this country under false pretenses. are we closer to knowing whether those allegations are true? >> well, i think we are appealing to her right people. a sham marriage, she lied to cover it up. had the people -- of the people actually know whatat happened, they wouldn't have elected her, she wouldn't be in congress today and if congress would do their job she might not be there much longer. so we are getting information in front of people. theyin should be doing the work, and we are simply asking them to do their job. >> tucker: has her -- last we checked with you, her office was refusing to answer even basic questions about her family. which are not irrelevant. they are germane to these allegations that she broke our laws to come here to live here. has her office given any of the

details they've been asked to provide or are they continuing to stonewall? >> they continue too stonewall, which is the opposite behavior what you expect to see from someone if they believe that they are innocent of any allegation. so the media here in minnesota continues to just have a blatant disregard for this and it's a struggle with the media. they've known about it for three years. these agencies know about it. we are doing our best to make certain they are prepared and fully equipped to do their job. >> tucker: right. ultimately voters will have a say in this fairly soon and i hope that you can keep them as informed as possible so they can make their decision with all available knowledge. thank you very much for that update tonight. >> thank you. >> tucker: well, the koch brothers, the famous koch brothers have dominated the world of republican politics for years. the question is are they

conservative in any sense? what have they done to the republican party. we will talk to the author of a new book who spent years looking to this question. stay tuned. ♪ ♪

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plus get $250 back when you buy an eligible phone. click, call or visit a store today. ♪ >> tucker: here's a fascinating little story that tells you everything about how those in power the ordinary people. according to police, isaiah thompson has delayed hundreds of subway trains with his disruptive behavior. people's emergency brakes, rise in the outsides of the car and rushmore. since july 2017, that's only two years, he's been arrested 18 times for behavior like this. thompson is a pest. at not saying he's a serial killer, but he definitely makes

life much worse for thousands, maybe millions of ordinary people. he's the kind of person authorities are supposed to protect us from. officials in new york don't see him that way. thompson was caught back in may and despite his many repeat offenses. 18 arrests. he was released on bail now he's arty was old and can fix. this week he was arrested once again for surfing outside of a subway car. he was arrested, but get this, authorities released him yet again. this time without any bail at all. so he still free to pastor new york city residents consequence-free. the subway hasn't even managed to ban him from using the subway. and why would they even try? and bill de blasio's new york, helping normal people is not only not a priority, it's a sin. for years, brothers charles and david coke within the two single most important donors on the american right. according to the personal ideology, made the party formere libertarian, much more

pro-immigration, and more pro-big tech. even as the republican party has evolved and elected trump, the brothers remain tremendously influential. more than you may understand and if you're frustrated, watching the party ignore what its own voters want, it's part of the reason. there's a new book out the takes a very close look at the business and political empire. chris leonard is the author of it and it's called spacex land the secret industry of koch business and power in america. we just spoke with him, here's he said. >> so my interest is the political activities of the koch palace, who i can say since i know them are very nice people. but there's a misconception in washington that they are conservative. tony what you discovered about theirou ideology after writing this book. conservatives? >> i think you've gotten it exactly right in the sense that they're not -- number of traditional conservatives as you might think of today.

charles koch is an engineer. a really nice guy. i interviewed him for this book. i've been around the people who worked with him for decades. charles koch believes he's found a blueprint for how to organize society. he's very libertarian. in his view of the best way to structure society is a free market exchangeis system. that's it. and i call it a blueprint intentionally. you can't argue with the blueprint. if you mess up something in a blueprint, the building will collapse. you can't argue with physics. i think charles koch sees this political ideology in that way. he believes that the only way you can structure society is as a market and when the government intervenes, it ultimately does more harm than good in his view. causes more problems than it solves. >> tucker: so have --- and our viewers can assess what they think of their views. i do bet that most of our viewers disagree, strong advocates i would say for opening the borders. how powerful are they, the koch brothers and charles koch

particularly within the republican party? >> extremely powerful. you nailed it at the beginning, charles koch has been patiently executing a political project since the mid-1970s. and that is to make america more libertarian, and his goal in that, his primary goal has been to reshape the republican party. particularly since the 20004 or less seen the koch network writ large, which is a multifaceted machine that includes a grassroots group of people called americans for prosperity. if it includes one of the largest corporatens lobbying shs in the united states. the constellations of think tanks here in washington. all of these resources have been put to bear to shift the republican party more towards what charles koch would call the classical liberal ideology. totally libertarian. basically moving the federal government back to the size it was in 1776. >> tucker: you've seen from the various organizations, which are just listed recently, this

line that we really don't have anything to fear from big tech that republicans are being hysterical about google or facebook. just calm down, everything is totally g fine. which is always a lot, but why would they be telling us that? >> so this is all part of the bigger picture in my view and we have to go back to one trunk one the election and surprised the entire political landscapeol of america. donald trump, and what the said administration is doing is essentially unacceptable to the koch network if you will because donald trump has proven that his administration is willing to intervene in the markets to get beneficial outcomes for the people who voted for him. that's how i would put it. he's willing to use tariffs. is willing to tear apart trade deals. in that impulse needs to be kept in check if you're part of the koch political machine. so if you start talking about regulating any company. if you start talking about regulating these tech companies,

the koch network is going to try to push her back off that as aggressively as they can. >> tucker: what you described in thisng book, which i would recommend to our viewers, or people who care more about ideas than outcomes who really are ideologues in the classic sense of that term. maybe that's appealing to peopl people. we will let viewers make up their own minds but this is eight interestingeir book, thank you very much. >> thanks for having me. >> tucker: mcdonald's has made a lot of noise about protecting the environment by making a switch to paper straws and yet in one significant way, the new straw at mcdonald's is worse for the environment than the old straw. we will tell you how after the break. ♪ i have a vision correction number,

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♪ >> tucker: it's been about 35 outrage cycles since the left decided we need to ban all plastic straws immediately. last year, to great fanfare,

the u.k. branch of mcdonald's restaurants replace their plastic straws with new paper straws. the move was made to protect the environment. turned out it was a sham and publicity stunt. how do we know that? mcdonald's has admitted its old plastic straws can be recycled, the new paper ones are not. they go straight to the garbage every time. meanwhile, back in the united states, san francisco became the first airport to ban all plastic water bottles. michael has been watching this carefully and he's a comedian and he's joining us today. do you feel like you are doing your part by using these unrecyclable paper straws? >> listen, i'm in the shadows of society. i'm still buying straws on the black market. out in the parking lot talking to my straws dealer going, hey, you got a crazy straw? i need a crazy straw. it'sot ridiculous! this whole straw thing is insane. common sense is dead. it was a good run, civilization, but i think it's over. this is literally the straw that

broke the camel's back. >> tucker: nicely put. but it would be one thing to. learn that the new straws are not a net benefit to the environment. but to learn they are actually worse, there's something about that. it's like an electric windmill. it doesn't generate electricityt it takes electricity! >> exactly. it's a windmill that runs on a diesel generator. it doesn't even come close to solving the problem. the problem of plastic in the ocean is coming from india and china. this is a feel-good thing that's actually worse. when did mcdonald's become the point man for this? when did life turn into at "monty python" skit? when they invented the paper straw, who ran into the board meeting going, i've done it, man, i've done it. it's a straw that will dissolve in liquid.

no one thought to say, you're going to put it in liquid! >> tucker: that's a really good point. plastic water bottles now banned in san francisco, apparently. is this going to make life better for a single human being, do you think? >> no, it's going to make my line through the tsa that much longer because now people are going to have to come with metal water bottles.ve you might as well put your water in a pressure cooker at this point. >> tucker: so -- what would be the -- i mean, i'm starting to believe that the point of allou these laws is to make the people who passed them feel like good people. it's kind of religious observance. >> yes, it is. it's like the people who pass our laws fell asleep as children in front of a marathon of "gilligan's island" and that's what they want our life to look like now. seriously, "gilligan's island" has got to be the perfect metaphor for the green deal or everything.

it's all green energy, they are eating off of bamboo trays, the professor can magically solve problems. it's not reality, you guys. it's not reality.ca everybody needs to take a deep breath and admit that common sense needs to make a huge comeback. >> tucker: i like "gilligan's island." i've got to be honest. i think of it more like bulgaria 1975.nd [laughs] i would be happy with a bamboo bike! i think it's going to be worse than that. crumbling concrete apartment blocks with flickering lights. we'll see. michael, great to see you. thank you for that.. >> good to see you, man. >> tucker: that's it for us. the show that the sworn enemy of lying, pomposity, smugness, and groupthink. i'm taking several days off, heading to the wilderness to fish some trout with my son. politics is important, fishing with your son is sometimes more important. don't worry, some of your favorites will be here when i'm

gone.n' brian kilmeade will be here. i'll be back for a special investigation on friday. mark steyn anchors most of the week, then tammy bruce will be here. see you soon. have a great night.. "hannity" is next. ♪ >> sean: welcome to "hannity." we are going to change format a little today. buckle up. far left new york city mayor, i called him comrade de blasio. 2020 democratic hopeful. to his credit, he sat down with me for an exclusive one-on-one interview. so far, he's the only 2020 democrat brave enough to come on this program and we commend him for that. we cover a lot of issues, more than we thought. obamacare, socialism, new green deal, police officers, and i'll topic was off the table. immigration, abortion, the second amendment. we got them all in. without further ado, buckle up. the media? you are going to love