>> i think beto is a national leader and he'll run for senate and . steve: well, we'll see. that's it. were out of time. happy birthday to me. >> happy birthday! steve: the next revolution will be televised next week. ♪ mark: hello america, i mark women and this is "life, liberty and levin". tonight is a important program. socialism versus capitalism. tierney versus liberty. robert lawson and professor edmund powell, professor of economics texas tech. hello, how are you. good to see you. >> good to be here. mark: i read your book "socialism sucks". two economists going through the

on real world and you came close to them. that is seller, with gray, support, china but this is a fascinating book. one of the things i liked about the book is it's readable. the people who need to read it it's readable like millennial and leftists and like democrats running for president of the united states. let's get started. let's start with you professor laughlin. what is democratic socialism? we hear bernie sanders use that term but what does it mean? >> let's start with socialism. it means the state will control the means of production, labor, land and capital will be run by the government. if you want to attach democratic in front of it the idea, i suppose, is you will have democratic system voting politicians who will elect central planners.

that is for the problem comes in. once you centralize economic control in the hands of a few people and that's what socialism inevitably, in my definition, does. how do you then have billions of people and it doesn't work and so it's been tried. greatest example in the modern era of democratic socialism is probably venezuela. chavez was elected by all accounts a free and fair election and instituted new constitution starting his socialist revolution and they nationalized industry with price control and all the things that go with socialism. what happens? as it inevitably happened socialism has been tried the concentration of power and economic control in the hands of a few they cannot keep the democracy and ended up using the power of the state to hammer down on their political opponents. media, independent journalists and independent professors and all sorts of people in the other

political parties. that's the problem. you can try it for a minute and has been tried but there is an internal contradiction. centralizing control over the entire economy usually, not usually but inevitably means you will not be able to maintain a democratic free and open political system. >> socialism is in a - it's not a magic phrase to put in front of socialism to make it not socialism. as a result i point this out on the road that you can have meaningful democratic freedom without your economic freedoms, too. when people point to places and say this is successful democratic socialism like sweden. they have a problem. "socialism sucks" a chapter on sweden is called not socialism because sweden is a socialist but the government does not own major means of production in sweden. instead the government is too big and is a big welfare state and high taxes and we think that problems with that but we should not conflated with socialism. the type of big welfare state and high taxes that sweden have

will slow down a trait of growth but does not impoverish you and get rid of democracy that nationalizing the means of production will. mark: these true socialist projects, first of all there is no pure socialism. it's impossible, isn't it? >> when you look around the world pure capitalism or pure socialism does not exist anywhere but even in our great capitalist countries government regulations that the private property market in some nationalized industries for state provision and same on the socialist . mark: let me ask you, the aggressive pursuit of socialism is an aggressive pursuit of a police state and the aggressive pursuit of capitalism is the progressive pursuit, ultimately, of increased liberty, isn't that a big difference? >> absolutely. don't get me wrong but i'm in favor of pushing down the far

capitalist road. mark: but i want the audience to understand that capitalism is a good thing. socialism is a bad thing and so an aggressive pursuit of socialism is an aggressive rejection of liberty and an aggressive result of - >> capitalism is just embracing people's liberty for consenting acting adult with any market exchange is okay as they mutually agree to it. socialism take that away and ultimately you are part of the means of production that the government will control and they will tell you how to use your labor and interact with the economy. that's the opposite of freedom. mark: let me ask you this, inequality, imperfection, the rich, the poor capitalism versus socialism - what is your take on that? >> that has been there selling point. selling point from marx to the very beginning it has been give

us the power we will centralize control of the economy we will deliver not only good economic performance which is a lie but will deliver the quality and that's been the selling point. inequality on the surface, it's not a horrible sounding concept. more or less all things being equal equality is a nice thing. the problem is they don't deliver it. it's an empirical lie. what socialism gives you if it gives you anything at all give you sameness. this is what we discovered in our travels when you go to socialist country like cuba today you get two types of beer, meals are basically the same at every restaurant. the day-to-day drudgery of things. there's a certain equality in the sense that will all eat the same meals that have the same products available in the stores but there will be no variety available so it's a type of the quality that i think is called sameness. it's not the kind of equality the most of us would really want

to have. one of the things i think when we had this conversation about equality is let's separate what the socialist claim they can give us but they claim they can give us equality but what they will actually give us and have given us when it's been tried has been a dreary sort of sameness of life. everybody gets whatever the government says and you get what i get and i'll get what you get and that's not really what equality is. mark: as you point out in your book how many new cars? any? >> essentially zero. mark: you're basically 1957 chevy. >> or if you're lucky you might find in 1990 [inaudible] from france. the 1990 no market was a terrible car but it's a terrible car. in cuba the scar sell for $3000 because the government will let anyone import cars and if you don't let them - supply and demand. limit supply prices go up. mark: what about the human spirit and creativity and productivity? mention things that help people

whether technology or medicines and so forth in any society that promotes uniformity. >> that kills the human creativity ultimately humans are the ultimate resources. our creativity that that productivity leads to liberty to flourish and you can see it side-by-side. we talk about sameness and the bland cuban food when bernie says why do you need 17 types of deodorant people say i don't know but try eating the same meal over and over in the same beer. that's constrain human creativity. those same cubans 90 miles lately delicious food in miami. a cuban image in miami is great but acumen say much in cuba is ham and cheese that's old and cruddy. when the cubans are given their liberty they do wonderful things with it. instead it stifled their island. mark: i want to go through a few policy issues with you. a lot of talk about the green new deal. i can remember and i'm old enough to remember the attack on free-market capitalism was that

it did not create enough wealth for enough people and now the attack on free-market capitalism is it creates too much wealth and too much materialists. so, we apparently need to regress and we need to limit the access to economic wealth, financial out this economy creates and they created this green new deal. this green new deal, as i see it, i'm interested in your take, is he the growth program or deindustrialization. it's wrapped up in a climate change argument. how do you see this? >> i see the green new deal as a red new deal but it's a time to have command-and-control in our economy in various ways and not blood socialism like the cubans in north korean but one more step down that road to serfdom as we lose more and more of our economic liberty and those who know best in these try to plan our lives in the affirmative part is just a sideshow. it's what you call environmentalist water and orange, that the green new deal.

>> all the problems people say and see on the left with the racism and sexism or whatever is him of the day and some are real problems, i will not fit or not, but all those problems are better if the rich you want to deal with poverty in america or do with malnutrition and deal with every problem you can think of it will be better for the rich and we will not get rich by turning over our economy and energy that drives our economy to windmill that are not as efficient as fossil fuels. one of the challenges is how you achieve if you are left us going to choose achieve social goals of equality, justice and so on and so forth while your economy is falling apart because in the green new deal what absolutely will cripple the american economy and you simply cannot - you can't replace fossil fuels. the driving energy source that keeps us or our house is cool in the summer and warm in the winter and food from spoiling

and our mri machines working in the hospitals all of that is extremely high energy requirements and we will not replace that in any lifespan. mark: under the green new deal you get a car manufacturer and they get into everything and anything we do in this country and who is a. who will make these decisions connect politicians and bureaucrats? exactly right. that's why it's a type of socialism. it's not the socialism of the soviet union but when you have government bureaucrats were deciding what energy you can use to fuel your business or your hospital or your household you are replacing a central plant about your decision and that's what socialism at a fundamental level is. you're consecrating power in a very few tiny people's hands.

mark: again, this green new deal as an attack on more than our economic system but an attack on our liberty and individuals to make decisions for yourself and live how we want to live, where we want to live, do what we want to do. is that correct? >> it's about controlling peop people. absolutely. the people in this planning don't appreciate is our planning and coordinating in a market society this is the role of prices and profit and loss. when energy prices go up that tells us we should work on getting substitutes and minimize energy use and it's the signal. we don't need a planner to do it for us. the price system should coordinate that. mark: i remember we were talking - wouldn't it be great if we are energy independent. our energy independent and the same people were saying wouldn't it be great if we're energy independent trying to destroy the instrumentalities for me is energy independent ladies and gentlemen, don't forget most week nights and watch me on levin tv, join us by giving us a call at 844 - levin tv. go to blaze tv .com /-slash mark

to sign up and don't forget, the hottest book in america. "unfreedom of the press". by the way, the second hottest book in america, "socialism sucks". i'll be right back. ♪ after walking six miles at an amusement park...

bill's back needed a vacation from his vacation. so he stepped on the dr. scholl's kiosk. it recommends our best custom fit orthotic to relieve foot, knee, or lower back pain. so you can move more. dr. scholl's. born to move.

sleep number 360 smart bed.st sale of the year on the can it help keep us asleep? yes, it senses your movements and automatically adjusts to keep you both comfortable. save 50% on the sleep number 360 limited edition smart bed. plus 0% interest for 24 months on all beds. only for a limited time. ♪ boom goes the dynamite, club yoko plays ] ♪ feels like i'm taking flight. ♪ [sfx: poof] [sfx: squeaking eraser sound effect.] ♪ i am who i wanna be ♪ who i wanna be ♪ who i wanna be. ♪ i'm a strong individual ♪ feeling that power ♪ i'm so original, ♪ ya sing it louder. ♪ i am, oooh oooh oooh oooh ♪ ehhh ehhh ehhh ehhh ♪ i am, oooh oooh oooh oooh ♪ i am

♪ mark: professor lawson, professor powell, i want to ask you about this. medicare for all including illegal aliens. how would that possibly work and what is it? >> horrible idea. the government is already too big in our healthcare industry. people complain about the high cost of haircut but that's not markets. it's a severely regulated care industry but whether ama controlling access to the profession and not letting nurse practitioners do more things or the fda that makes it cost $1 billion in ten years to bring a new drug to market this is not freedom or capitalism. our problems in medicine come from too much government already. doubling down to doing more government in medicine promising it for free would be even worse. in fact, of the socialist countries have given free healthcare for everybody in the venezuelan constitution put in there that everybody has a right to free healthcare.

having a right paper does not deliver it. there is still scarcity. average person in venezuela or something like 19-22 pounds. it's on a healthy country. putting it on piece of paper does not deliver. they're still scarcity and have to ration and that's why you care about death panels who decide what get care and whatnot when you have socialized medicine. mark: how many people run from the united states to canada for healthcare? how many people fly to britain for dental care? in other words, you are right. these utopian ideas just don't cut it. you have rationing, line waiting and don't get the cutting-edge technology or cutting-edge drug and who do you go to if you need help? >> if you want to find out how something can be expensive to make it free. make healthcare free and you will create leading. there's no country rich enough, including the rich united states to write a blank check and say have as much free healthcare as

one. we will run out of resources. we don't have enough resources so then what? then you ration and someone has to decide and if there's no prices due to rationing then it will be a government agency and medicare for all agency and those guys will be the one to decide mark, you are sick and we don't have enough doctors, nurses and medicine to go around to give everyone free medicine so we will have to decide whether you're a lucky ones that gets it and that rationing is required in the system and you make that rationing so much worse when you don't charge prices because who's to say if your illness is worse or more deserving of care then bends illness but it will become a bureaucrat that makes those decisions. that's how it's done in england and canada. mark: this is life and death. this is not a joke. what office do you call that can deliver what you need? we talk about insurance companies but what you're basically - who do you call and there's no relief?

>> no, that's the problem. the witness when we are traveling for socialism sucks that people talk about socialized medicine in cuba being a success. it's a myth. people have to link their own sheets to the hospital because they're so poor but they have the good care for ruling elites because some comments are more equal than other and peering foreigners to pay the government for healthcare can get high-quality care for the average person gets horrible care. the myth they have this great life expectancy but they don't have cars to die in car accidents from. they forced abortions at the hospital with high-risk pregnancies and cooking the books when it comes to their life expectancy stuff. it's a disaster just like it would be everywhere else. mark: we have this obamacare that was supposed to be nirvana and now they basically don't even talk about obamacare. it's like the foundational point now we have basically a centralized control healthcare. the va without choice.

if i made that and i'm told you have a right to health care and that's what bernie sanders says although in the va they are with this, this and have a right to healthcare and write to the doctor and that medicine but you know they don't. isn't socialism one big damn lie? >> it's a promise but it's a promise of utopia and not heaven on earth kind of promise. the problem is we don't live in a utopia. we live in a world with scarce resources. doctors and nurses are human beings and the people to make the drugs and scientists are human beings and we don't own it. when you say healthcare is free and you're right what you're essentially saying is those doctors and nurses are obviated to work for you. or the taxpayers have to pay

them for you. we ought to ask ourselves a moral question. is that really what this is all about? or should we have a system, medical system that is more based on mutual gain? i would like something fixed, doctor and would you help me? that is a more humane, in my opinion, more humane system for getting our needs and wants satisfied with turning it over to this utopia almost heaven on earth kind of thing is really childish almost to present this. mark: wouldn't it be better if we embraced our strength? competition. less government. all kinds of public and all kinds of coverages and all kinds of costs and all kinds of competition in all kinds of availability? we do it for reselling toasters in washing machines and dishwashers and have a department that was in the department of justice called the antitrust division and it says

you can't combine this tv company and this tv company when it comes to the private sector but yet when comes to the government it's the opposite and the more centralized and less competition the better. for me doing it backwards? >> absolutely backwards. we should leave people free to choose. the competition is private market like that could be moved to where we don't have competition and private markets and function a heck of a lot better. mark: a lot of the people running for president, icy, talk about need for competition when it comes to government. they want to monopolize that in the private sector controlled by the government. when we come back i have a question for both of you. why is it assumed the people who work in the government are smarter, more noble, more earnest than people who work in the private sector? we'll be right back. pr♪ and last longer with fewer pills. so why am i still thinking about this? i'll take aleve. aleve. proven better on pain.

it's an honor to tell you that [ applause ] thank you. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. i love you! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ there's a company that's talked than me: jd power.people 448,134 to be exact. they answered 410 questions in 8 categories about vehicle quality. and when they were done, chevy earned more j.d. power quality awards across cars, trucks and suvs than any other brand over the last four years. so on behalf of chevrolet, i want to say "thank you, real people." you're welcome. we're gonna need a bigger room. so, every day, we put our latest technology and unrivaled network to work. the united states postal service makes more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. my dbut now, i take used tometamucil every day.sh

it traps and removes the waste that weighs me down, so i feel lighter. try metamucil, and begin to feel what lighter feels like. let's get down to business. the business of atlanta on monday... ... cincinnati on tuesday. ...philly on wednesday. ...and thursday back to cincinnati . modernized comfort inns and suites have been refreshed because when your business keeps going, our business is you. get the lowest price guaranteed on all choice hotels when you book direct at choicehotels.com.

the first survivor of alzis out there.ase and the alzheimer's association is going to make it happen. but we won't get there without you. join the fight with the alzheimer's association.

>> live from america's news headquarters. i'm aisha hasnie. raising wildfires across the amazon rain forest on the agenda as president trump meets with world leaders at the g7 summit happening in france. french president emmanuel macron says summit leaders are nearing an agreement on how to support brazil. brazilians president announcing friday he would send 44000 soldiers to help battle the fires. wildfires could have dire effects worldwide with the amazon producing 20% of the

planets oxygen. was' deputy who claimed that he was shot in the department's parking lot last week apparently lied about it. the incident watched a massive man. authorities say the became suspicious when he cannot find bullets at the scene 21 -year-old sheriff deputy has been relieved of his duties but i'm aisha hasnie hosni and back to life liberty and levine. mark: professor lawson, why is it assumed that the government does its personal handle of things that were noble and more humane and if it done in the private sector is in it the opposite? >> i think it's the opposite. more or less most of us want to make our lives better off at the end of the date that was when we started the day. want to feed our kids, take care of ourselves and in our old age but i don't think government briquettes are much different than people working in the private sector. mark: you don't think they're different in pursuits? someone who is a 30 year civil service job for someone who

takes a risk? i'm not saying their dna but they're different motivations. >> perhaps but the differences there in different systems. if you put me in a market system running to great value in order to provide for those things i want my life to provide a product people want to buy at a profitable level of price level or put me in a civil service job where the government can't get out of jobs and we rely on taxes forcibly taken the dmv literally cannot go out of business. if you put me in a dmv office all behave in a certain way. mark: why is it assumed people in the government offices can produce better, make better decisions the people in the private office? >> they can't. this is the systematic problem is not the wrong people all the bad people are just disproportionally attracted to politics rather than private markets but even people being people. the entrepreneur in the private market has prices and profit loss to guide decision-making to create value for others.

the government planners don't have access to that same information because they're not getting people to voluntarily purchase their services from the informational component of it is not the same. this is the fundament of problem of the economist that was pointed out almost 100 years ago in socialism. he asked for social economy how you calculate even if we have angels in the planning girls how you make the correlations to coordinate your advance production and says without markets it's impossible. mark: isn't part of the problem, professors, politicians and bureaucratic's with good intentions can be a big problem? that is, they may have million good intentions but that should not be imposed on us but those are those predilections and desires and what they want, no? >> that's correct. we talk about the economy. the economy is me and you and ben and the people watching the show in individuals with their own goals and objectives. government bureaucrats try to what friedrich hayek called the conceit that they can design

what people really want and he will sit in their offices in washington state capitals and make the decisions to give you the things you really want because you're not smart enough to know what you want. it's the conceit and not the conceit consistent with free people. mark: what about the universal basic income? i remember this coming up in the 19 and everyone blew it off and laughed but it's back and cory booker has brought it up, elizabeth warren and what is a universal basic income? >> horrible idea but what it is is guaranteeing everyone a certain minimum that goes to everyone in society whether you need it or not but in the socialist economies some we visited have essentially a universal asic income for everyone and it's called poor. poor an equal except for the ruling elites. in the united states context doing something like this would

be tremendously costly. thinking about if there's deserving poor report you want to help fight with you to your programs they spend money on everyone else who doesn't need your help, too. that's got to be an inefficient way of helping poor people. mark: is at a way to motivate people to be self-sufficient? >> i grew up pretty poor and if you had offered 13 -year-old bob larson of thousand dollars a month was an insane amount of money to 13 -year-old me. i was poor. what i have worked as hard to study hard or gone to college and onto phd if you had told me the 13th that you can coast out the rest of your life with a thousand dollars a month i would have probably taken that you but to me, a thousand dollars, i was rich. mark: i look at all these subsidies, welfare related things like when you work at all? people who would work regardless but you would have a greater

percentage of the public who are induced by the government not to work. >> our free enterprise system, capitalism, is about incentives and cap - they give you incentive to do things for others but prices give you the information to tell you whether you doing a good job and in the socialist economies this does not work because they don't generate prices for the information in the new socialist man who will work for the good of everyone else he never showed up and punched the timeclock people continue to be people and weren't doing it for the common good. for both those reasons the more you socialize and economy the less productive you get the less good you are to satisfy the desires of everyone else in society. mark: don't forget almost every night you watch levin tv and give us a call to join up and i hope you will at 844 - levin tv. 844 - levin tv. go online and don't forget to get your copy of "unfreedom of the press". we'll be right back.

♪ -and...that's your basic three-point turn. -[ scoffs ] if you say so. ♪ -i'm sorry? -what teach here isn't telling you is that snapshot rewards safe drivers with discounts on car insurance. -what? ♪ -or maybe he didn't know. ♪ [ chuckles ] i'm done with this class. -you're not even enrolled in this class. -i know. i'm supposed to be in ceramics. do you know -- -room 303. -oh. thank you. -yeah. -good luck, everybody.

it's tsleep numberbiggest sale360 smart bed.n the you can adjust your comfort on both sides your sleep number setting. can it help us fall asleep faster? yes, by gently warming your feet. but can it help keep us asleep? absolutely, it intelligently senses your movements and automatically adjusts to keep you both effortlessly comfortable. so you can really promise better sleep. not promise... prove. and now, all beds are on sale! save 50% on the 360 sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus 0% interest for 24 months on all beds. only for a limited time.

do your asthma symptoms ever hold you back? about 50% of people with severe asthma have too many cells called eosinophils in their lungs. eosinophils are a key cause of severe asthma. fasenra is designed to target and remove these cells. fasenra is an add-on injection for people 12 and up with asthma driven by eosinophils. fasenra is not a rescue medicine or for other eosinophilic conditions. fasenra is proven to help prevent severe asthma attacks, improve breathing, and can lower oral steroid use. fasenra may cause allergic reactions. get help right away if you have swelling of your face, mouth, and tongue, or trouble breathing. don't stop your asthma treatments unless your doctor tells you to. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection or your asthma worsens. headache and sore throat may occur. haven't you missed enough? ask an asthma specialist about fasenra. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help.

♪ mark: professor laughlin, going down the long list of utopian ideals here. precollege and eliminate college debt and this is aimed at the millennial and two thirds of people in this country never graduate from college so you have people who are poor than those subsidizing them and paying off their loans, too, while were at it. so much for the little guy. what do you make of that? >> we went to chicago for the socialism conference and talk to young millennial's. mark: having a hell of a good time. >> chicago yeah, it was great. certainly the student loan and free student loans or forgiving student loans was a big part of the agenda to the socialism conference but this confused ben

and me a little bit because free student loans aren't a social's plan but a big state welfare state plan so calling it socialism is a problem but we had a lot of people who thought it was a good idea but we go to the same conversation we have about free healthcare but you can't make something free. you can but if you do you ration it. everyone will want to go. one of the things you see with the free university systems in europe is they don't take many college students. were trying to send a third of our high school or 40% of our high school students a huge number to college but the only reason this is financially viable as if we charge them. you make it free will not be able to afford to send that many students and it's a central planner and some bureaucrat and testing agency will decide which lucky high school students get to go to college because if it is for you can afford to send everyone wants to go when it's free. what we know those decisions are based on merit. all kinds of political and ethnic or genitalia in all

decisions built into these things that have nothing to do with brainpower. what do you make of this? >> absolutely. when we went to chicago and it's fitting that it was in chicago. we call this the chapter back in the u.s. as a. we talked to the overwhelming young people and they talked about precollege or forgiving that you got a host of issues where they are left of the democratic party but when you ask them for you in favor of abolishing private property the majority of them are not. they don't put socialism as the defining characters and for this environment, gender issues pick your issue but they're far to the left and somehow someone told him socialism is the answer when will we need to say is capitalism and freedom and free enterprise and association and cooperation but we capitalism is cooperation. it's cooperating on a voluntary basis. what he tried to do in this

project is reach out to millennial's in a way they can engage with and understand the benefits of capitalism and how socialism is the opposite of the values they espouse. mark: you are both professors and you're in a small minority. it's relatively easy if you're a marxist to get tenure in these colleges and universities. in some of the so-called leading colleges and universities faculty pick incoming faculty and it's an incestuous relationship. and so you speak out, i speak out and most republican or conservative politicians have marbles in the house and don't know how to explain the things so even when it comes to forming

informing our fellow citizens, particularly young people, it becomes difficult so the emotional or passionate plea i will give you this or this in the world look like this there's not a lot of counterbalance. this is extremely concerning to me. troubling to me. there's no answer so i will not say how we fix this but i am going to say maybe the government should do a little less subsidizing of universities and colleges and more promotion of competition which would promote more ideas and more opportunities from different faculty and for different types of professions. what do you think of that? >> i think the higher education business needs to be disrupted. i like to see more competition. higher education accreditation agencies have created a sort of homogeneity across the landscape and that is not good for a vibrant education. i'm in favor of this. you know, . mark: you weren't getting in trouble?

>> and i both teach in texas because he found difficulties in other states teaching and assessing the ideas we do so . mark: hold on. hold on. first there was academic freed freedom, ideas and this is the place supposed to take place. vibrant debate, different ideas, libertarians, conservatives, constitutionalists and we love that spirit mark, were to academics who wrote an economist and wrote a book called "socialism sucks" but that's academic freedom right there. mark: exactly. but you had to go elsewhere to do it. what i'm saying is more and more these universities conservative wants to speak and they have to bring in the police. the commencement speakers always seem one ideology and so my concern is that i don't mean to put you gentlemen on the spot is our universities look more and more like the socialist regimes

in terms of liberty and freedom of speech and not exclusively but more and more. when i was going to school i went to temple university in a radical left-wing school in north philadelphia and i was outspoken conservative for ronald reagan. people wanted to hear what i had to say. today i think i would have been beaten to a pulp. >> there is an aspect of that and i don't want to underplay it but i think it's disproportionate and how it's covered in the media of these how i personally experienced it but i speak all over the country and might have topics i'm invited on our socialism, sweatshops depending or immigration so these are controversial topics like the students protest meat when i'm speaking but i've always been able to deliver my lecture and have a civil conversation that the vast majority of the students there in the faculty who attend. >> if you're a libertarian or conservative professor you have to be regarded on how you talk

to students and maybe what you write and publish a few more articles than your left-wing colic down the hallway but it still an economic were not in humanities and i don't want to speak to us like in humanities but it does not look at from afar but in economics or chosen profession if you are good at her job and publish anything you can be anything you want to be. mark: we'll be right back. oh yeah, sure. um. you don't know my name, do you? (laughs nervously) of course i know your name. i just get you mixed up with the other guy. what's his name? what's your name? switch to geico®. you could save 15% or more on car insurance. could you just tell me? i want this to be over.

♪ mark: professor powell, let me bring up this issue of cost. i know it does not excite people but everything has a cost and i don't hear it spaced by any journalist asking the questions but there's more than even this be proposed plus we have current circumstances of massive debt somehow to be paid for all of this? >> we will not going to be the government will ultimately have to default on the promises they made. forget precollege, free healthcare but what we have on the books right now is not sustainable. social security will not be able to pay for itself going forward. we're not going to be able to make payments that are promised so that will make some sort of default whether the default is obligations in terms of defaulting on the debt or changing the ages and requirements in the payments to get into social security but the

pharmacist more than can be delivered. you can't squeeze blood out of a rock or more out of the economy to pay the debt that our economy is racking up. >> one way we can't default is to print money. make one of the greatest risks of the national debt. the politicians won't have - they won't be brave enough to tell her social security recipients will not get that $400 check is without the money but they will print $100 and at the scale we are talking about that is inevitably inflation. i think the default might be a different type of default. inflationary default which is still a default because the value of the money you will get his recipient won't be what you are promised. mark: what does that do to everybody in the country? >> hyperinflation of that magnitude tax economy. it destroys your price system. it's your ability to calculate profits and losses and this is

not a 3% inflation but hyperinflation, it grinds economic activity to a halt. this is what we saw with venezuela. people lugging suitcases across the venezuelan border into columbia to buy basic business these to bring back the suitcase was heavy both ways because it was stuffed with the worthless cash they had from venezuela because of hyperinflation. they needed a suitcase to buy basic supplies. mark: when we see the pre- world war one films from germany and people pushing barrels filled up paper currency what it does ultimately is destroys the society. right? completely destroys the society with starvation, poverty so why do we need example after example after example of this? we have one south of the border with venezuela which is rich in oil and has more oil reserves

than any other country in the face of the earth in a vibrant rich country 50 years ago probably the richest country south of the border and look at it, poorest country in the face of the earth and people starving to death and people being killed because the object to is taking place so how much more examples do we need that liberty related to economics works in tierney -related economics is a disaster? >> hopefully no more examples but unfortunately i believe we will get them. venezuela is important to look at because in 1970 average venezuelan was richer than the average spaniard but this is not a - it was democratic as we discussed earlier in this is what democratic socialism will give you. political tyranny and poverty. >> bernie sanders does not point to venezuela anymore. >> yeah, he likes to point to sweden and denmark as his iconic place. mark: but also it's wrong.

>> is also wrong about that but i think bernie is a shyster, frankly. i think he's lying to us but he went to the soviet union in the 70s and liked it. for him now to say i don't mean socialism like the soviet union but i mean denmark is a massive bait and switch on his part. we should not let them get away with it. mark: up it appears elizabeth warren is running to his left. i'll be right back. [laughter] i had a heart problem.

i was told to begin my aspirin regimen, and i just didn't listen. until i almost lost my life. my doctors again ordered me to take aspirin, and i do. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. listen to the doctor. take it seriously. frustrated that everyday activities cause wrinkles and there's nothing you can do about it? downy wrinkleguard is a fabric conditioner that helps protect you from wrinkles all day. pants washed with downy wrinkleguard and detergent

are virtually wrinkle free. try downy wrinkleguard. ♪ boom goes the dynamite, club yoko plays ] ♪ feels like i'm taking flight. ♪ [sfx: poof] [sfx: squeaking eraser sound effect.] ♪ i am who i wanna be ♪ who i wanna be ♪ who i wanna be. ♪ i'm a strong individual ♪ feeling that power ♪ i'm so original, ♪ ya sing it louder. ♪ i am, oooh oooh oooh oooh ♪ ehhh ehhh ehhh ehhh

♪ i am, oooh oooh oooh oooh ♪ i am billions of problems. dry mouth? parched mouth? cotton mouth? there's a therabreath for you. therabreath oral rinse and lozenges. help relieve dry mouth using natural enzymes to soothe and moisturize. so you can... breathe easy, there's therabreath at walmart.

♪ mark: professor lawson, ten, 20 years from now america or socialist, more capitalist? >> i'm an optimist so i will with more capitalist part of the reason i say that is because if you had asked me that question 20 or 30 years ago coming out of the 70s when we had wage and price controls and order line hyperinflation and talking about industrial planning at the national level all of those ideas are considered to be absolutely absurd now. i think it's - no one would talk

about raising national price controls today so were much freer and more economically free and capital today that we were in jimmy carter's 1970s and i think that trend is still going on so going on around the world in the u.s. is part of the world around the introductory. it's a hiccup but i'm an optimist. mark: professor powell. >> i'm an optimist because i believe in the power of ideas. idea of free enterprise and more compelling than socialism and for our ideas if we can communicate them the world should move in that direction. now, i think economists generally do a fairly bad job of mitigating these things to the general public and there been plenty of boring journal articles that no one has read - but this is our attempt at writing socialism as a travelogue, fun, have a beer and trying to relate to millennial's but lineal people out there who were not read adam smith who

might read a couple of my sober economist going around the world and it still gets to the deadly serious ideas of economics and history between capitalism and socialism. mark: of tell you why a conservative dissenter keeps moving left and the government keeps growing and i don't really know of any political or governmental way to start to contain it other than article five convention but i see the progressive movement of 100 years has been extremely successful in numerous institutions including yours in my opinion and i see some pushback so i think it's a coin toss at best and a coin toss at best. republics don't survive forever. i'm not saying this is over but

we are fighting like hell with books and this tv show and so forth but it's a tough not to be a mac and people must get engaged. professors, great pleasure. thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you, mark. mark: don't forget next time to watch "life, liberty and levin". ♪ >> when she lost that baby, she was devastated. >> she couldn't