we are out of time. the world is about to end. we've got to get out. thank you for watching, thanks for joining us. do please come back next sunday when the next revolution will be televised. hello america, this is life liberty and levin. doctor robert epstein, how are you. >> very good. >> america this is probably one of the most important shows i will have ever done so i'm hopeful you will watch the entire hour. it involves our republican system of government. it involves our vote and the manipulation of the vote in the outcome of the next presidential election, the effect it had on the past congressional elections so this is a very, very important

program as far as i'm concerned and it involves you my friend. you are the senior research psychologist at the american institute for behavioral research and technology, former editor-in-chief of psychology today, founder and director emeritus at the cambridge center for behavioral studies in massachusetts, you received your phd in 1981 from harvard university, just to get some of those out here, i want to read something to you, something you wrote a few years back in politico. you said there are at least three very real scenarios whereby google, perhaps even without the leaders knowledge could shape or even decide the election next year. whether or not google executives see it this way, the employees who constantly adjust the algorithms are manipulate people every minute of every day. the adjustments make increasingly influence our thinking including our voting

preferences. you add that our research leaves little doubt about whether google has the ability to control those in the online experiments conducted in the united states. we were able to boost the proportion of those between 37 and 63% after just one search session. the impact of doing bias rankings repeatedly over periods of weeks and months would have undoubtedly been larger. google is massive. almost everybody uses google. how are they able to manipulate vote. what are they doing. >> if google search results, for any reason are biased to favor one candidate or one party for any reason, that will shift a lot of opinions about that candidate and a lot about sin in fact it can shift millions of votes.

it doesn't matter whether an employee or an executive at google did this deliberately. the algorithm alone, a computer program could be doing this and it will fil still affect the outcome of elections. >> are they trying to affect the outcome of election. >> i don't know for sure. there have been a number of leaks recently from google, there's even been some whistleblowers who are saying google has a very strong political bias internally that they lean left which i tend to do as well that they are deliberate in wanting to affect. >> i'm interested in what you found. are they biased or not. be very specific. what happened in 2016 in the presidential election. >> in 2015 i set up the first ever monitoring system that allowed me to it look over the some shoulders of a diverse

group of american voters. there were 95 people in 24 states, i looked at politically oriented searches that these people were conducting on google and yahoo i was able to preserve more than 13000 searches and 98000 webpages and i found very dramatic bias in google search results, not being or yahoo, neighboring hillary clinton whom i supported strongly, but the point is i reported that, i reported what i found and that level of bias was sufficient to have shifted over time somewhere between 2.6 and 10.4 million votes to hillary without anyone knowing that it occurred.

>> and so how does that get accomplished, these algorithms that are changed and adjusted and so forth, but to have that significant of an impact obviously someone or something wants someone to win and someone to lose. so the person who goes on google, how does that manifest. >> if you go out to google and you type in anything that's election related, that could be hundreds of things, you can type in immigration or you type in the law or you can think of all the things that are related to election. the point is you end up with some search suggestions that are flashed at you as you are typing. we now know those search suggestions have a very very powerful effect on people and that they alone can shift opinions and votes dramatically, and then search results appear below and the point is, if there's a bias in them which means, if a search

result of high up on the list, if it takes you to a webpage that makes one candidate look better than another, if you are undecided and you're trying to make up your mind, what we've learned is that information posted high in google search results will shift opinions among undecided people dramatically because people trust google and they especially trust high-ranking search results. that's why 50% of all clicks go to the top two items. >> is that what google did. >> well again, i can't say what they did but i can tell you what we found, we found a very dramatic pro hillary clinton bias on google, but not the other search engine and in all ten search positions on the first page of search results, that's quite dramatic. >> so it's only google, it's

frontloaded, pro hillary, anti- trump, walden who does it if google doesn't do it, it just happens? somebody has to put information in for information to be prioritized. >> and what google tends to say in these types of situations is, it's an organic phenomenon, organic like organic food meaning it's all generated by users, entirely the fault of users. >> the point is that's nonsense. in the controlled experiments i run, i determine which candidate is favored in search results or i can mix up the search results so they favor neither candidate. so google actually has total control over what users see so to blame this kind of bias on users, it just makes no

sense. >> pedestrians, these algorithms, these models that are set up, people set up algorithms, they don't set themselves up. >> well people create the algorithms to begin with for sure, and as one of the recent whistleblowers from google has said, we make them do exactly what we want them to do, but the fact is google also acknowledges adjusting their algorithm at least 600 times. year and we also now know for sure because of leaks that google uses blacklists internally and they also do re- ranking, d ranking, fringe ranking, they are constantly making manual adjustments to what we see so they have contro control, whether they deny this or not, they have complete control over what we see and if there's bias favoring one candidate or one

party or one dog food, the fact is they have control over that. >> has google in terms of the company, the executives shown political bias in the past. >> it's a matter of record that their top executives and most of their employees have a very strong liberal bias. i synthesize with that, i just, i don't like the fact that the bias is getting expressed in a way that's really, in my opinion, interfering with the free and fair election, but typically 95% or more of donations from google go to democrats the former head of google eric schmidt offered in writing to run hillary clinton's tech campaign in 2016, hillary clinton chief technology office officer, a woman named

stephanie hanan right before she came over to hillary's team she was an executive at google and google and alphabet, the parent company, they were hillary's largest donors in 2016. >> let me just say here for the record so the audience know, the ceo of google wants to come on this program and sit in this chair and have a 40 minute discussion with me, you are more than welcome. i have no problem with equal time. in fact, i encourage it. 2018, democrats picked up a whole bunch of seats. did you monitor that to. >> we did some monitoring in 2018, this time we had more than a hundred 60 field agents. we deliberately focused, because midterm election, on three staunchly republican districts in orange county california thinking perhaps maybe if there is some something going on with search

results, maybe we would pick it up in those counties. in all three counties the democrat won so they were flipped and we measured substantial bias, liberal bias in the google search engine, but not being or yahoo. that's very, very important that were finding it in one search engine but not the others. that level of bias easily, very easily could account for the win margins that occurred in each of those districts, and even more problematic here, if that level of bias had been present in google nationwide for all the districts, for all the races, that would have shifted to democrats upwards of 78-point to million votes spread across

many races, but the point is, it's enormous. >> there's two big problems besides the fact that it's a lot of votes. this is occurring subliminally. it's occurring without people's knowledge. people can't see the bias in search results. >> let's stop there, subliminally, i want to pick up their and that people can't find the bias. this is a very important point. this is probably where there's people who will disagree in the fayette sublimina subliminal. i want to get into this because it's an important point. don't forget to check out levintv most weeknights. you can go to place tb.com/mark and sign up there. don't forget 14 weeks on the new york best sellers list. those of you who haven't gotten it, i encourage you to get it. we'll be right back.

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so doctor epstein, where we left, you said these things can be subliminal, there's no paper trail, so how do we know.

>> if someone on my staff brings me search results that they're getting ready to use in an experiment that run a lot of controlled randomized experiments, i can even tell that there is bias. i can even see it. how would you know. you have to click on all the links and see what the webpages look like and then you have to make sense of it all, it's virtually impossible so when we do big studies, it's typical that 95% of the people in the study can't detect any bias even though were showing them highly bias search results. that's exactly the number we got in a national study we did in india in 2014. we had more than 2000 undecided voters throughout india participating in our study and we shifted opinions and votes exactly as we had done in other studies in other

countries, but 95.9% of people in the study couldn't see the bias. this is where it really gets creepy. the very, very small number of people who can see the bias, they shift even farther in the direction of the bias so merely being able to see it doesn't protect you from it. >> and there's no paper trail so google can say this gentleman's all well and good, he's very interesting, but prove it, but you prove it throughout, you prove it through tracking it. >> normally that's right there is no paper trail, that's exactly right, in fact, internally at google, we know this from an e-mail that leaked the wall street journal last year, they called these femoral experiences. >> what's that mean. >> that means you type in a search term and their flashing suggestions that you, those

are very powerful manipulators. the point is there just flashing at you and they disappear. then search results appear and maybe you click on something and then that disappears. it's ephemeral. it's short-lived, it's not stored anywhere and once it's gone you can't go back in time and reconstruct it. they know this so we know this now from some of the leagues, they understand the power that up femoral experience has, they shift opinions on anything and to shift voting preferences. 2016 i built the first ever system to preserve these expenses. what i was preserving in the months leading up to the presidential election was search results on google, bing and yahoo. basically by looking over people's shoulders with their permission and capturing that stuff before disappears. if you don't have monitoring systems in place, all of these

experiences are gone so the programmers, the executives, they understand how this works so well, but the point is once these experiences have an impact on people, they disappear and authorities cannot trace them. >> 2016 google went full out if i understand your writings for hillary and against trump. >> but trump won. how do you explain that. >> i don't think google or facebook or these other tech companies actually went full out. i think they held back, there's a number of things that i study now beyond search results which can also be used to shift opinions and votes to flip elections, there's many indications that a lot of these techniques were not being used, i think they were

overconfident, they were certain that hillary clinton would win, i think they were more aggressive in 2018, i have some evidence to support that, and i'm pretty sure in 2020 they will go all out. in other words they will use every possible technique. >> when you say in 2020 they're going to go all out to defeat trump and promote democrat nominees, that means right up into election day pushing these agendas? for example, if they put on their site, as they did in the past, go vote. print.

[inaudible] i published an article that included all the calculations showing this was just vote manipulation. that something i am now studying and understanding better, but the point is that that would have, let's put it this way, google knows full well that more democrats and left-leaning people like myself use google than republicans do. they know that. they know the exact numbers so they know if they present a go vote prompt, they know that's going to have a bigger impact on democrats than republicans and i calculated that one manipulation in 2018 gave at least 800,000 more votes to democrats than to republicans, but that's an example of another kind of very, very

subtle manipulation which, on its surface doesn't even look like manipulation. it looks like a public service. >> this is fascinating to me. i want to pursue this a little bit more. google knows who's using google and they know a lot about each and every one of us. they know if they put go vote because there's more democrats than liberals that use it, that means their ability to try to effect the outcome of election is quite scientific. i want to pursue this with you a little bit more. we'll be right back. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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live from america's news headquarters, the death toll in the wake of hurricane dorian is rising. the official toll in the bahamas now stands at 44. officials there worn that number could go up as security forces are searching the most devastated areas. hurricane dorian is also blamed for five deaths in the southeastern portion of the u.s. and also one death in puerto rico. the storm struck eastern canada with hurricane force winds knocking out power to hundreds of thousands of people in nova scotia. president trump facing yet another primary challenger. south carolina governor mark sanford is the third were republican announcing he is running for the oval office.

he joins former congressman joe walsh and massachusetts governo governor. now back to life, liberty and levin. >> i want to read another couple sentences for something you wrote. in laboratory and online experiments conducted in the united states, we were able to boost the people who favored any candidate by between 37 and 63% after just one search session. the impact of doing bias rankings repeatedly over a period of weeks and months would undoubtedly be larger so this is ubiquitous and the more they do it, obviously, the more they're able to tip the scale toward one candidate or another, correct. >> yes and i have no doubt this is occurring this very moment, but without monitoring

systems in place that capture ephemeral experience, there's no way to know. i'm sure right now, for example, they're having an impact on who's registering to vote. they will impact the way the primaries go. they will have a big say in who gets nominated by the democrats. they are using this power, at least that's what the whistleblowers suggest chemical using this power i've been studying for a long time. they are using it and it's not just on election day. they're going to be using every subtle day leading up to election day. >> you been doing these studies for some time now. these leaks, these whistleblowers come out of google and you're saying wait a minute, that's what my study shows. >> actually what i really say is i told you so. >> so how does the average person defend themselves against this. >> first of all you have to be

insane if you're actually using google.com. you have to be nuts. >> i use being, personally. >> one saying because we haven't even talked about the surveillance problem, the massive tracking that's occurring, the censorship problem, what i'm saying is you shouldn't even be using google.com. you shouldn't be using gmail or chrome, that's another surveillance tool. but the point is, what you say to people were using these things, you say look, just the surveillance issue alone should make you think twice. >> you go into google, it's a free country, you can use whatever you want. if you want to use it as a search engine chemical into google, the information you're giving us just be alerted to this fact but if you're alerted to it, people are

unaware there being psychologically manipulated, in the sense being pushed in one direction or another and being fed limited information or biased information and that sort of thing. used to call this propaganda spirit is not a proper word. >> this goes way beyond propaganda or any kind of manipulation that's ever existed before in history. for example, you start to type a search term in that box and in fact your viewers can do this right now. my research shows two things and then i will tell your viewers how they can test this. my research shows just by manipulating the suggestions they flash at you as your typing we can, in our experiments turn a 5050 split among undecided voters into a

90 - 10 split with no one having the slightest idea that we manipulated them. were doing this just by manipulating the suggestions we flash. you're being manipulative from the very first character you type. if you doubt that, type the letter a. if you type the letter a there's a pre-good chance that when those suggestions flash at you, in the first second or third position you will see amazon. you might even see it into positions or all three because amazon is google's largest advertiser and google sends more traffic to amazon than any other traffic source. these are business partners and google wants you to go there. they are constantly nudging you with these suggestions when they finally show you that list down below, believe me, they know what they're doing. they understand the power that those search suggestions half. the search results. the answer boxes that they're showing you. >> we've gone from a search engine to something much much

bigger than that and what's odd to me, we know more about exxon mobil activities inside and outside that company, what they do day today, we know more about most major corporations in this country and they really don't hide it anymore, they really don't know about these tech companies. we don't know how google functions. i watch these hearings, these members of congress, some of them are knuckleheads but some of them are serious people trying to get information. you don't get information and is not just google. it's other companies two. facebook and so forth. it's as if they have built a cone of secrecy about their bubble corporation and you can't break into what they are doing and how they are manipulating. here you are, one guy, maybe with a handful of helpers from

the outside, monitoring this limited budget, limited personnel and you're able to, because of your background and experience in years and years of working on this kind of subject, you're able to find a significant amount of evidence showing the manipulation. i want to show thi pursue this a little bit more what we get back. call 844 levintv or go to blaze tv.com/mark and look at this. on freedom of the press. we sold almost half a million copies. thank you. we'll be right back. to homes

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doctor robert epstein this isn't just happening in the

united states, right, it's happening in other countries. you have an election coming up in israel in ten days with intranet yahoo. i take it the same groups of people at google who do not like president trump probably do not like prime minister benjamin net yahoo since they are supportive of each other. are they probably doing the same thing. >> they have the ability, the power, it's hard to imagine based on the recent leaks that they're not exercising that power. the problem though is that without monitoring systems that are capturing ephemeral experiences will never know. >> the other thing that strikes me as i talk to you is, they are having an anonymous effect on elections, true? >> correct and they're going to go all out in 2020 against trump, true. >> i believe they will.

>> i believe they will, but i'm no longer obsessed with the deliberateness part of it because even if it's just their algorithm not passive-aggressive is still aggressive, right. >> so their algorithms are based on 2016, they are anti- trump. >> let me put it, they're not pro trump. >> it's hard to imagine that their algorithm or their employees are pro- trump. it is hard to imagine that. >> and they can do more in 2020 than they did in 2016. >> oh yes. back then i was only studying one kind of subtle manipulation. i've identified since then about a dozen. there are a lot of things they can do. >> these whistleblowers you talk about, have any of the whistleblowers said google is

moving to the right, there moving conservatively, they like trump. have you found any of that. >> no. the people they been firing or the people who have been quitting are all conservative. >> have you found any information that demonstrates they are anti- democrat party or anti- liberal. >> quite contrary. >> 2020 could be tough if google gets away with this because you're saying taken affect millions and millions of votes. in a close election that could tip the balance. >> of calculated in 2020 are actually about 50 million votes on the line. that's how many votes could be shifted possibly by these very subtle largely invisible online techniques. >> the federal election commission. >> you know, whether you believe in these campaign laws are not, you might have a

problem with some of those but there they are and you have to comply with them. the visuals are limited on how much they can give in the primary, $2700 max, a total of $5400. you have these huge packs of companies that they can set up for advocacy purposes, set up tax as well, they have significant amounts you can donate but there still limits, but google can influence an election is you're saying in a significant way and they do have to report anything to the fec. what would you suggest that the value of their influence in american dollars might be. >> if they would allow companies to buy the influence that they are actually having it would be in the billions. it's priceless really because again, they can do things on a

massive scale that no company, no campaign can do, and they can do things invisibly, that's hard for campaign to do, and they can do things in a way that leaves no paper trail. >> a kind of hit and run tactics. hit and pull out, no paper trail, someday like you takes a picture of it and says okay, now i have a trail for you, but is anyone doing other than you? >> to my knowledge, and this is sad to say, but to my knowledge, at the moment there's just me and my helpers and my associates, that's it. >> it when we come back to my have a question for you for 2020. how are you or anyone else planning to monitor this. i don't mean just the

election, but i mean the lead up to the elections of the american people can know what's taking place. we'll be right back. eating right? on it! staying active? on it. audrey thinks she's doing all she can to manage her type 2 diabetes and heart disease but is her treatment doing enough to lower her heart risk? [sfx: crash of football players colliding off-camera.] maybe not. jardiance is the number 1 prescribed pill in its class. jardiance can reduce the risk of cardiovascular death for adults who also have known heart disease. that means jardiance can help save your life from a heart attack or stroke. plus, jardiance lowers a1c and it could help you lose some weight. jardiance can cause serious side effects including dehydration, genital yeast or urinary tract infections, and sudden kidney problems. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may be fatal. a rare, but life-threatening bacterial infection... ...in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking jardiance and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this bacterial infection,...

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doctor robert epstein, in the

2020 election, it's not that far away, other than you, really nobody's monitoring this. maybe nobody even knows how to monitor this. the lead up to the election, given the consequences and the effect on the electoral process in google is probably out there as you suggest, gearing up and doing their thing right now, what we do about this. >> i'm hoping to build very large, very comprehensive monitoring system, much larger than the systems are built before, and to monitor a wide variety of phenomena, e-mail suppression, that's going on now, all kinds of throttling on youtube, shadow banning on twitter, newsfeeds that are highly bias, demoting certain news sources, promoting other sources so i'm hoping to build a very big system with a very large number of field agents in all 50 states to keep an

eye on what's happening, and to use artificial intelligence to spot these shenanigans as they are occurring. if i'm unable to build that system, we will never know why the winner one. we will never know. >> let me ask you this, the media, the mass modern media, the reception to your findings, how has that been? >> until a couple weeks ago, reception was pretty good, but a couple weeks ago president trump tweeted about some of my findings from 2016. he got a couple things slightly wrong then hillary clinton tweeted back at him saying my work had been debunked that it was all based on 21 undecided voters. >> it sounds like she got

everything wrong. >> blatantly wrong. >> you were hillary supporters. >> a huge hillary supporter. i have a signed letter from bill clinton in my wallet. i'm a huge supporter of the clintons, and then mainstream media which is my media all, they all took up her message and at this moment in time, i'm a pariah. i don't understand how this happens. it makes no sense to me, but that's what's happened. >> i can tell you why it happened. if you try to bring an objective analysis to our electoral process and a very odious influence on that process that is under the radar. if we had real news operations needs other networks they would take what you report and did have some investigative

reporters, new york times, washington post and they would pursue it and look into it, but they don't so they attack you, the democrat party press. that's what i call it. you might want to rethink your ideology. all that said, if you find more and more information and yet the information is censored by the mass media, that makes it much more difficult, although you could go into the new media around the old media, around network tv, cable tv and so forth and go on to social media which i think is where your word is spreading and certain websites and so forth and put the message out, correct. >> i could, but it's very, very hard to fight these companies because facebook controls the largest social media platform there is. if facebook wants to suppress your message they can.

google controls 92% of search worldwide. the next largest search engine controls 2.5% of search so the point of this, if major media or the tech industry wants to suppress my findings which are, by the way, rocksolid, very carefully done, if they want to suppress my findings or they want to criticize me in some wa way, they are very hard to fight. >> have you been invited on meet the press. >> no. >> have you been invited this week. >> no. >> have you been invited on any of the major sunday show. >> no. >> have you been invited on major news network program. >> no. >> i just wanted to understand. we'll be right back. hmm. exactly. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. nice. but, uh... what's up with your... partner?

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if i understand you correctly, you are saying the lead up to the 2020 election, google is going to do even more and more intensely what was doing in 2016, is that correct? >> absolutely. that's my belief. are you monitoring them now. >> no. are you going to start monitoring them again soon. >> i hope to. as you do this do you make public wayfinding as best you can. >> correct. >> because i'm concerned if you're not monitoring, nobody's monitoring. you may have unique skills to monitor them where others do not have those kinds of skills. is it a little surprising to you being a liberal and supporting hillary that you receive the kind of reception you pad from the media and other liberal democrat party friendly outlets?

>> surprisingly it's not quite the word. >> upsetting, my head is spinning, that kind of thing sumac have you been personally attacked. >> i've had a spo spotless reputation as a scientist and scholar for almost 40 years. my work meets the highest standards of scientific activity, always. >> here's your notes, it spells out, you're more transparent than google, it spells out page after page after page and you don't think anyone in the media has read this other than me. >> i doubt it. >> do you think don lemmons has read this? >> to think andrea mitchell has read the. >> that was from the proceedings of the national academy of science as one of the top journals in the world, and that paper you're holding in your hand has been downloaded from their website more than 200,000 times and at least as of last year was

ranked in the top 1% of all scientific papers in all fields, but now, i don't think many people have read it. >> why do you think the media won't read it. >> i think there's a message here they don't want to hear. at the moment the tech companies, google especially are supporting people who lean left, supporting democrats, i like those, i like democrats, but you don't know who they're going to sport next year. that's a problem. what i'm saying is look, i think we should put democracy, our nation, the free and fair election ahead of any party or candidate. that's my message. that's why i been speaking out. >> the title of the report for america is the search engine manipulation affect and its possible impact on the outcome of elections. you can download this on being. it's been a great pleasure. think user.

good luck. keep up the work. we will monitor this to. it's very, very important. see you next time on life, liberty and within. trump's lis. stories you haven't heard. and a warning for the country. >> there is a reason why democracies haven't always succeeded in history. from washington, shannon bream. shannon: the supreme court. for many voters it was the deciding issue of the 2016 election. this hour the